:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes
:00:44. > :00:46.in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -
:00:47. > :00:53.Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax
:00:54. > :00:55.to fund public services, but will traders just
:00:56. > :00:59.Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,
:01:00. > :01:02.insists he can win this election - so which way will
:01:03. > :01:07.We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.
:01:08. > :01:09.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics
:01:10. > :01:13.The fishermen questioning the government's promise to take
:01:14. > :01:17.and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air
:01:18. > :01:25.pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically
:01:26. > :01:29.selected focus group of political pundits -
:01:30. > :01:31.they're not so much undecided as clueless -
:01:32. > :01:33.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting
:01:34. > :01:40.throughout the programme. So, we've got two new
:01:41. > :01:42.policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce
:01:43. > :01:44.a financial transaction tax if they win the general election
:01:45. > :01:47.and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax
:01:48. > :01:49.avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work
:01:50. > :01:52.with local authorities in England to build council houses
:01:53. > :01:54.with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy
:01:55. > :01:56."will help thousands of people get on the first rung
:01:57. > :02:09.of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I
:02:10. > :02:13.have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in
:02:14. > :02:17.pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as
:02:18. > :02:22.literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the
:02:23. > :02:26.Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it
:02:27. > :02:30.framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a
:02:31. > :02:35.sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a
:02:36. > :02:38.narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an
:02:39. > :02:46.argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour
:02:47. > :02:48.government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said
:02:49. > :02:51.right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a
:02:52. > :02:55.housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit
:02:56. > :03:00.George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get
:03:01. > :03:04.house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it
:03:05. > :03:09.works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes
:03:10. > :03:17.sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa
:03:18. > :03:21.May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly
:03:22. > :03:25.these two announcements have something in common which is that
:03:26. > :03:31.over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.
:03:32. > :03:35.Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't
:03:36. > :03:41.agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like
:03:42. > :03:46.a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might
:03:47. > :03:50.become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is
:03:51. > :03:55.difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what
:03:56. > :04:01.looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase
:04:02. > :04:05.orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will
:04:06. > :04:08.change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market
:04:09. > :04:13.value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily
:04:14. > :04:20.with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both
:04:21. > :04:24.would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and
:04:25. > :04:31.traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then
:04:32. > :04:38.councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the
:04:39. > :04:42.city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the
:04:43. > :04:46.Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is
:04:47. > :04:50.talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now
:04:51. > :04:58.Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is
:04:59. > :05:02.the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most
:05:03. > :05:09.interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC
:05:10. > :05:12.correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't
:05:13. > :05:17.worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising
:05:18. > :05:24.it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the
:05:25. > :05:30.macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very
:05:31. > :05:32.well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.
:05:33. > :05:34.Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.
:05:35. > :05:37.But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -
:05:38. > :05:39.that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media
:05:40. > :05:48.Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra
:05:49. > :05:51.?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social
:05:52. > :05:53.care over the lifetime of the next parliament,
:05:54. > :05:55.as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over
:05:56. > :06:03.The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,
:06:04. > :06:04.although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious
:06:05. > :06:07.about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence
:06:08. > :06:10.and security review immediately after the election.
:06:11. > :06:12.In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable
:06:13. > :06:15.management of migration", but it will not make "false
:06:16. > :06:21.Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,
:06:22. > :06:23.and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises
:06:24. > :06:27.for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.
:06:28. > :06:30.The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail
:06:31. > :06:37.and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one
:06:38. > :06:42.A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics
:06:43. > :06:45.as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss
:06:46. > :06:47.about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates
:06:48. > :06:49.told us they thought it had been deliberately
:06:50. > :06:53.leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting
:06:54. > :06:55.the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"
:06:56. > :06:58.And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,
:06:59. > :07:07.Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise
:07:08. > :07:11.the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out
:07:12. > :07:16.rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the
:07:17. > :07:20.railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three
:07:21. > :07:26.Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to
:07:27. > :07:33.comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what
:07:34. > :07:37.is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will
:07:38. > :07:42.nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking
:07:43. > :07:46.the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail
:07:47. > :07:51.will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail
:07:52. > :07:55.until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound
:07:56. > :08:02.very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National
:08:03. > :08:07.Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to
:08:08. > :08:12.nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you
:08:13. > :08:18.will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the
:08:19. > :08:22.National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just
:08:23. > :08:27.have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is
:08:28. > :08:31.it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that
:08:32. > :08:37.costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I
:08:38. > :08:41.would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform
:08:42. > :08:45.the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority
:08:46. > :08:50.stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion
:08:51. > :08:56.in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for
:08:57. > :09:00.reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not
:09:01. > :09:03.going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the
:09:04. > :09:08.distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising
:09:09. > :09:13.the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on
:09:14. > :09:17.Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent
:09:18. > :09:24.years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in
:09:25. > :09:30.answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for
:09:31. > :09:33.nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the
:09:34. > :09:38.energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big
:09:39. > :09:43.six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to
:09:44. > :09:50.be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,
:09:51. > :09:54.you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with
:09:55. > :10:01.the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty
:10:02. > :10:07.to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British
:10:12. > :10:15.taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a
:10:16. > :10:19.long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a
:10:20. > :10:25.key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in
:10:26. > :10:27.our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households
:10:28. > :10:32.ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal
:10:33. > :10:37.providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John
:10:38. > :10:41.McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top
:10:42. > :10:47.of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You
:10:48. > :10:54.will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years
:10:55. > :11:01.after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing
:11:02. > :11:07.75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of
:11:08. > :11:11.capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our
:11:12. > :11:15.financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a
:11:16. > :11:18.state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we
:11:19. > :11:25.won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.
:11:26. > :11:29.How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75
:11:30. > :11:36.billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500
:11:37. > :11:40.billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure
:11:41. > :11:43.that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a
:11:44. > :11:48.figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial
:11:49. > :11:56.competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the
:11:57. > :12:00.CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250
:12:01. > :12:05.billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the
:12:06. > :12:09.fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a
:12:10. > :12:16.proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have
:12:17. > :12:20.just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will
:12:21. > :12:24.ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the
:12:25. > :12:32.parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state
:12:33. > :12:36.than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will
:12:37. > :12:40.ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came
:12:41. > :12:48.to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft
:12:49. > :12:51.manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going
:12:52. > :12:57.to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps
:12:58. > :13:00.we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for
:13:01. > :13:04.corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your
:13:05. > :13:09.predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end
:13:10. > :13:14.of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their
:13:15. > :13:18.behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or
:13:19. > :13:24.they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to
:13:25. > :13:27.make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and
:13:28. > :13:33.costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.
:13:34. > :13:35.We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes
:13:36. > :13:40.in market activity because that would be approved and direction to
:13:41. > :13:48.take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United
:13:49. > :13:51.States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are
:13:52. > :13:56.already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,
:13:57. > :14:01.if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number
:14:02. > :14:07.of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in
:14:08. > :14:11.the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting
:14:12. > :14:15.corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business
:14:16. > :14:18.investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent
:14:19. > :14:25.years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in
:14:26. > :14:29.things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce
:14:30. > :14:34.the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the
:14:35. > :14:41.Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the
:14:42. > :14:44.proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can
:14:45. > :14:51.invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.
:14:52. > :15:01.Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in
:15:02. > :15:08.?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a
:15:09. > :15:14.year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so
:15:15. > :15:18.what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it
:15:19. > :15:24.increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about
:15:25. > :15:28.cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to
:15:29. > :15:34.thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are
:15:35. > :15:41.industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate
:15:42. > :15:46.businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if
:15:47. > :15:52.we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am
:15:53. > :16:00.not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business
:16:01. > :16:04.tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to
:16:05. > :16:16.thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on
:16:17. > :16:20.business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own
:16:21. > :16:25.labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not
:16:26. > :16:31.want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding
:16:32. > :16:34.with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing
:16:35. > :16:38.global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.
:16:39. > :16:44.Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't
:16:45. > :16:49.cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought
:16:50. > :16:53.in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has
:16:54. > :16:58.changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that
:16:59. > :17:03.change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a
:17:04. > :17:07.lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We
:17:08. > :17:14.need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the
:17:15. > :17:19.computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other
:17:20. > :17:22.countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what
:17:23. > :17:30.other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at
:17:31. > :17:37.introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will
:17:38. > :17:42.be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at
:17:43. > :17:46.the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in
:17:47. > :17:51.2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are
:17:52. > :17:56.going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which
:17:57. > :18:00.generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a
:18:01. > :18:11.significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied
:18:12. > :18:16.at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the
:18:17. > :18:21.instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.
:18:22. > :18:24.This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in
:18:25. > :18:29.terms of financial services because there is more to keep these
:18:30. > :18:33.businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the
:18:34. > :18:37.economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we
:18:38. > :18:42.will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.
:18:43. > :18:47.And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.
:18:48. > :18:53.Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower
:18:54. > :19:00.than international standards, so why are so many global companies who
:19:01. > :19:05.make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of
:19:06. > :19:08.the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not
:19:09. > :19:14.answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the
:19:15. > :19:18.important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it
:19:19. > :19:23.encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may
:19:24. > :19:29.say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.
:19:30. > :19:38.But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and
:19:39. > :19:42.did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading
:19:43. > :19:50.internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our
:19:51. > :19:54.partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than
:19:55. > :19:58.they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,
:19:59. > :20:04.alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the
:20:05. > :20:08.people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the
:20:09. > :20:13.corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and
:20:14. > :20:17.more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a
:20:18. > :20:24.number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been
:20:25. > :20:26.able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the
:20:27. > :20:34.changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British
:20:35. > :20:37.companies, not from these international companies. It is
:20:38. > :20:42.because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good
:20:43. > :20:47.thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack
:20:48. > :20:51.down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused
:20:52. > :20:57.to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by
:20:58. > :21:02.cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking
:21:03. > :21:07.down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap
:21:08. > :21:13.is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.
:21:14. > :21:19.It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have
:21:20. > :21:23.brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax
:21:24. > :21:33.schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone
:21:34. > :21:35.from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the
:21:36. > :21:40.Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money
:21:41. > :21:46.on these companies while still having a competitive rate to
:21:47. > :21:51.encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to
:21:52. > :21:54.prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on
:21:55. > :22:00.average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms
:22:01. > :22:06.by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it
:22:07. > :22:10.that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,
:22:11. > :22:16.Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual
:22:17. > :22:25.income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,
:22:26. > :22:27.people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep
:22:28. > :22:31.emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years
:22:32. > :22:38.and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.
:22:39. > :22:44.Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.
:22:45. > :22:50.There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.
:22:51. > :22:53.1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their
:22:54. > :22:57.careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,
:22:58. > :23:02.investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,
:23:03. > :23:07.companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities
:23:08. > :23:10.that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about
:23:11. > :23:15.hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than
:23:16. > :23:20.they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives
:23:21. > :23:23.have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has
:23:24. > :23:29.shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of
:23:30. > :23:35.?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions
:23:36. > :23:40.kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one
:23:41. > :23:45.law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of
:23:46. > :23:50.all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare
:23:51. > :23:56.and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people
:23:57. > :24:03.in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that
:24:04. > :24:08.allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket
:24:09. > :24:14.to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,
:24:15. > :24:20.among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as
:24:21. > :24:26.we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen
:24:27. > :24:30.millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these
:24:31. > :24:35.questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just
:24:36. > :24:39.about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and
:24:40. > :24:43.below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We
:24:44. > :24:48.have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone
:24:49. > :24:55.up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages
:24:56. > :24:59.will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for
:25:00. > :25:04.housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,
:25:05. > :25:08.social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the
:25:09. > :25:12.associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4
:25:13. > :25:20.billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you
:25:21. > :25:23.get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local
:25:24. > :25:30.authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.
:25:31. > :25:34.I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at
:25:35. > :25:40.100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at
:25:41. > :25:45.you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the
:25:46. > :25:49.local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is
:25:50. > :25:53.what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the
:25:54. > :25:56.money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the
:25:57. > :26:02.expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the
:26:03. > :26:08.housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how
:26:09. > :26:13.many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on
:26:14. > :26:18.it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what
:26:19. > :26:22.the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities
:26:23. > :26:26.who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.
:26:27. > :26:30.What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,
:26:31. > :26:33.they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,
:26:34. > :26:39.the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with
:26:40. > :26:42.them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I
:26:43. > :26:48.want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what
:26:49. > :26:51.the target and timescale is, and this government, under which
:26:52. > :26:57.affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million
:26:58. > :27:03.families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your
:27:04. > :27:07.record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what
:27:08. > :27:12.we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a
:27:13. > :27:19.strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This
:27:20. > :27:25.is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,
:27:26. > :27:30.75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.
:27:31. > :27:34.That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the
:27:35. > :27:45.industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in
:27:46. > :27:50.2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000
:27:51. > :27:58.affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.
:27:59. > :28:06.So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have
:28:07. > :28:11.delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour
:28:12. > :28:15.did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,
:28:16. > :28:16.working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in
:28:17. > :28:20.their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit
:28:21. > :28:23.of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those
:28:24. > :28:26.around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got
:28:27. > :28:29.three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those
:28:30. > :28:31.fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation
:28:32. > :28:36.YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders
:28:37. > :28:38.will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters
:28:39. > :28:48.of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home
:28:49. > :28:52.to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited
:28:53. > :28:55.from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't
:28:56. > :28:59.decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,
:29:00. > :29:01.two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up
:29:02. > :29:08.political press at Downing Street under David Cameron
:29:09. > :29:15.and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron
:29:16. > :29:17.and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself
:29:18. > :29:21.as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it
:29:22. > :29:41.came about who you want,
:29:42. > :29:45.if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus
:29:46. > :29:49.groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,
:29:50. > :29:51.even though some of those same people have been saying we quite
:29:52. > :29:53.like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's
:29:54. > :29:58.going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive
:29:59. > :30:00.manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,
:30:01. > :30:04.that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that
:30:05. > :30:06.you don't recognise? After a little warm up,
:30:07. > :30:08.the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong
:30:09. > :30:15.woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,
:30:16. > :30:17.when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,
:30:18. > :30:20.here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what
:30:21. > :30:23.are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,
:30:24. > :30:27.it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's
:30:28. > :30:36.actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership
:30:37. > :30:48.in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's
:30:49. > :30:53.the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one
:30:54. > :31:03.for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad
:31:04. > :31:05.as strong and stable, but it will probably get
:31:06. > :31:08.on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today
:31:09. > :31:18.and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my
:31:19. > :31:26.question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,
:31:27. > :31:29.we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table
:31:30. > :31:32.at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,
:31:33. > :31:35.we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control
:31:36. > :31:36.and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought
:31:37. > :31:41.he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,
:31:42. > :31:50.hovering around, skirting around and that's the second
:31:51. > :31:53.time I've seen a similar interview with the question
:31:54. > :31:55.being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have
:31:56. > :31:57.any confidence with him You think you are going up
:31:58. > :32:01.against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand
:32:02. > :32:03.up for us? When you are in negotiations,
:32:04. > :32:08.you need to be tough. And actually is right
:32:09. > :32:10.to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing
:32:11. > :32:12.something for the country. There's a reason for talking
:32:13. > :32:14.about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future
:32:15. > :32:16.of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen
:32:17. > :32:21.to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show
:32:22. > :32:26.and in the news. She attracts the public better
:32:27. > :32:32.than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question
:32:33. > :32:35.in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa
:32:36. > :32:41.May is an animal. So, in your minds,
:32:42. > :32:44.what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think
:32:45. > :32:59.she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's
:33:00. > :33:05.superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies
:33:06. > :33:20.are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak
:33:21. > :33:24.and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch
:33:25. > :33:26.you by surprise if you're What do you take away
:33:27. > :33:34.from what you saw then, and what message would you send back
:33:35. > :33:37.to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see
:33:38. > :33:40.Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,
:33:41. > :33:43.but you don't need to be liked to be elected,
:33:44. > :33:45.because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future
:33:46. > :33:47.and your security. I think what I also take out
:33:48. > :33:50.of that focus group, was it was a group of floating
:33:51. > :33:53.voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no
:33:54. > :33:56.huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ
:33:57. > :33:58.would be stick to the plan. I thought the response
:33:59. > :34:02.to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't
:34:03. > :34:04.particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her
:34:05. > :34:09.about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party
:34:10. > :34:13.want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks
:34:14. > :34:15.that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,
:34:16. > :34:21.what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise
:34:22. > :34:23.the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform
:34:24. > :34:29.out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those
:34:30. > :34:32.characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be
:34:33. > :34:34.over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact
:34:35. > :34:37.that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go
:34:38. > :34:40.into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American
:34:41. > :34:47.political consultant For the sake of this discussion,
:34:48. > :34:54.assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for
:34:55. > :35:00.Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious
:35:01. > :35:03.collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether
:35:04. > :35:08.you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where
:35:09. > :35:12.they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to
:35:13. > :35:17.watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more
:35:18. > :35:21.substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality
:35:22. > :35:26.and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because
:35:27. > :35:36.Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see
:35:37. > :35:43.on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language
:35:44. > :35:47.she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't
:35:48. > :35:52.see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her
:35:53. > :35:57.campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy
:35:58. > :36:02.because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary
:36:03. > :36:07.Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,
:36:08. > :36:13.the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I
:36:14. > :36:21.was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC
:36:22. > :36:25.had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can
:36:26. > :36:31.assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had
:36:32. > :36:38.but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other
:36:39. > :36:43.than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you
:36:44. > :36:48.will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour
:36:49. > :36:52.will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of
:36:53. > :36:56.number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of
:36:57. > :37:01.soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable
:37:02. > :37:04.majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British
:37:05. > :37:10.people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will
:37:11. > :37:15.have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice
:37:16. > :37:20.of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British
:37:21. > :37:24.politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there
:37:25. > :37:28.is still a significant percentage of the British population that once
:37:29. > :37:37.someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.
:37:38. > :37:40.I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and
:37:41. > :37:43.I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a
:37:44. > :37:49.population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.
:37:50. > :37:51.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:52. > :37:54.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:55. > :38:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:05. > :38:07.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics
:38:08. > :38:12.The fishermen questioning the government's promise to take
:38:13. > :38:26.And for the next twenty minutes, I'm joined by the Conservative
:38:27. > :38:27.parliamentary candidate for Plymouth Moor View Jonny Mercer
:38:28. > :38:32.and the Labour candidate for South East Cornwall Gareth Derrick -
:38:33. > :38:35.Theresa May has indicated she will allow
:38:36. > :38:37.Conservative MPs a free vote on whether to bring
:38:38. > :38:43.The use of hunting with dogs has been banned since 2004
:38:44. > :38:45.when Tony Blair's government voted for an end to the sport.
:38:46. > :38:48.Mrs May was asked her views on the subject at a question
:38:49. > :38:57.and answer session in Leeds earlier this week.
:38:58. > :39:06.This is the situation on which individuals have one view pro or
:39:07. > :39:13.against. As it happens, I have always been in favour of fox
:39:14. > :39:18.hunting. We maintain our commitment, hunting. We maintain our commitment,
:39:19. > :39:21.we have had a commitment to allow a free vote at the Conservative Party.
:39:22. > :39:25.That is what we would allow Parliament the opportunity to take
:39:26. > :39:29.the decision on this. Do you think Mrs May is genuine, prepare to say
:39:30. > :39:34.what she thinks even if it is unpopular. It is an absurd thing to
:39:35. > :39:37.be raising this time. Far more important things we should be
:39:38. > :39:41.talking about in this election. If it came back to Parliament, forced
:39:42. > :39:44.majority, it would be insult to the majority, it would be insult to the
:39:45. > :39:47.British people who have made it quite clear we don't have any
:39:48. > :39:50.interest going back to that part of fox hunting. The callous and cruel
:39:51. > :39:55.killing of animals by wild dogs. Going further than that, if we did
:39:56. > :39:58.bring it back into law, how embarrassing would that be on the
:39:59. > :40:02.international scene? An embarrassment for Britain to take
:40:03. > :40:10.that backward step. Reading is well and truly a box of faded, colonial
:40:11. > :40:16.power. Is it absurd? Quite stringent, Mrs May? I was not
:40:17. > :40:21.expecting it. Not an issue that has come up on the doors too much in
:40:22. > :40:28.Plymouth, we have not seen the hunt going down Tavistock Road for some
:40:29. > :40:31.time. Is it toxic for the party? I don't think it is toxic the
:40:32. > :40:35.perception around hunting is different from the reality. If you
:40:36. > :40:39.push up into Dartmoor, there are country communities focused around
:40:40. > :40:43.country sports. They say eight in ten members of the public against
:40:44. > :40:48.the? Could be up highly unpopular move? It could go to a free vote,
:40:49. > :40:52.let's see what happened. Country sports can be enjoyed without
:40:53. > :40:58.killing. The enjoyment part of sport is going about the killing of the
:40:59. > :41:04.animals. How will you vote? I do a thing called direct democracy, which
:41:05. > :41:10.I did since 2015. It has many flaws, but I will be doing it. You ask
:41:11. > :41:14.members of the public? I will ask people in Plymouth as to which way I
:41:15. > :41:20.will vote. What would you vote in the poll? In this direct democracy
:41:21. > :41:26.I'll be representing people in Plymouth. Both of you service
:41:27. > :41:34.personnel. Very lucky, former service personnel. Joined by you in
:41:35. > :41:37.a week where military was top of the agenda.
:41:38. > :41:39.First there was the Conservative promise to spend a bit
:41:40. > :41:41.more money on defence, then Labour's Jeremy Corbyn said
:41:42. > :41:44.And all this watched closely in Plymouth where past elections
:41:45. > :41:47.have been a very tight fight between the two parties.
:41:48. > :41:58.It is the biggest naval base in western Europe. Covering 650 acres.
:41:59. > :42:03.Devonport is usually important to the local economy in Plymouth,
:42:04. > :42:08.employing 2500 people and hundreds of local firms. In the run-up to a
:42:09. > :42:12.general election, when political parties start talking about defence
:42:13. > :42:19.spending, people here tend to listen. The best defence for Britain
:42:20. > :42:24.is a government actively engaged in seeking political solutions to the
:42:25. > :42:29.world's problems. In a week in which Labour's manifesto was leaked to the
:42:30. > :42:35.press, Jeremy Corbyn was forced to clarify the party's position on
:42:36. > :42:38.defence. I accept military action under international law is a
:42:39. > :42:42.circumstances is necessary. His circumstances is necessary. His
:42:43. > :42:46.message was not well received on the high street in Devonport. With
:42:47. > :42:52.Corbett not wanting a nuclear deterrent, every country, we need
:42:53. > :43:00.it, all these tinpot countries, like North Korea, you have to watch those
:43:01. > :43:05.countries. It has not been all plain sailing for the Conservatives. In
:43:06. > :43:14.2015, rumours and the press, that Plymouth -based HMS Ocean, fresh
:43:15. > :43:18.after refit was to be decommissioned. Rubbished by the Dem
:43:19. > :43:25.candidate Johnny Mercer. Concerned by the governorship would go out of
:43:26. > :43:29.service in 2018. The city's Royal commander Citadel base will close in
:43:30. > :43:35.the next ten years. The first time I've done myself. Inside this newly
:43:36. > :43:39.opened pasty shop, uncertainty about which way they will vote. Everybody
:43:40. > :43:44.promises this and that. Generally getting in, we will forget about
:43:45. > :43:51.that from now. We will bring this in. I honestly don't know. We're
:43:52. > :43:55.quite well-known for our services. That is why we get left alone. This
:43:56. > :44:00.week in a letter to the Prime Minister a group of former military
:44:01. > :44:05.top brass criticised the current level of defence spending. Currently
:44:06. > :44:09.two percent of GDP. This we are going to spend two percent is
:44:10. > :44:14.needs is about 3%, the money spent needs is about 3%, the money spent
:44:15. > :44:18.on front line military capabilities, and for the pensions. All the other
:44:19. > :44:22.things that do not deliver front line key abilities to be taken out
:44:23. > :44:25.of the defence budget. The Conservatives five back they had
:44:26. > :44:29.raised the defence budget in each year Parliament if they win the
:44:30. > :44:36.election. Labour says they would maintain concurrent defence spending
:44:37. > :44:40.levels. Johnny Kimura former British Army officer. A volatile world out
:44:41. > :44:45.ballistic missiles, China has become ballistic missiles, China has become
:44:46. > :44:50.Middle East. Our Tories taking Middle East. Our Tories taking
:44:51. > :44:54.defence spending seriously enough? There are real challenges around the
:44:55. > :44:58.fence. I made no secret about that in my first two years in Parliament.
:44:59. > :45:01.I want to see an increase in defence expenditure. The idea we have a
:45:02. > :45:08.military incapable, poorly equipped and so once, it is all relative. Our
:45:09. > :45:13.capabilities, we have lost people, but our capabilities are phenomenal.
:45:14. > :45:18.You look at the reach of our UK operations, and so forth. They are
:45:19. > :45:24.exponentially getting better. Should we be doing more? Yes. The idea we
:45:25. > :45:29.are driving around in a tinpot military, offensive. We don't need
:45:30. > :45:34.3%? I would argue for as much as we can. It is not about the figure. It
:45:35. > :45:40.is about the capability we can project with our Armed Forces. Two
:45:41. > :45:43.percent, 3%, whatever. We need to configure ourselves to face the
:45:44. > :45:50.threats we are facing. What do you make of the Tory pledge? I would
:45:51. > :45:52.jump in there. To say that the capability is increasing
:45:53. > :45:56.exponentially is ridiculous. Very consistent what we're hearing from
:45:57. > :46:00.the very top, Theresa May, Michael Fallon. We are at the point where
:46:01. > :46:07.defence spending is at a 20 year low. It was 1.9% of GDP last year
:46:08. > :46:11.this they are pledging to increase it by a very minor amount, 0.5% per
:46:12. > :46:15.year. Not going to address the very real problems. We have a very
:46:16. > :46:20.diminished fleet. Only 19 service ships. That they have the drop in
:46:21. > :46:27.the future. There is not the money to bring on a new fleet. You are
:46:28. > :46:33.former Commodore in the Royal Navy. The assertion our defence ability is
:46:34. > :46:37.diminished is nonsense. It does not matter about the figures, it is the
:46:38. > :46:42.capability we can project. Having gone through the 2003 Afghanistan
:46:43. > :46:47.operations, it is simply not true. However loudly shouted our defensive
:46:48. > :46:51.ability has fallen off the planet, we have challenges around spending,
:46:52. > :46:56.better, looking after our people. better, looking after our people.
:46:57. > :47:02.I'm a chief protagonist for that in Parliament. The idea we have a poor
:47:03. > :47:10.monetary, Inc incapable... That is not... How would the defence be
:47:11. > :47:15.better under Labour? Labour would be committed to holding firm on the two
:47:16. > :47:19.percent Nato commitments, putting in place a more balanced capability in
:47:20. > :47:24.the future. The Tories are saying they will have the two percent plus
:47:25. > :47:28.money. For example, we are investing huge amounts of money in the two
:47:29. > :47:32.aircraft carriers which are a good thing in many respects. Forcing the
:47:33. > :47:36.whole of the Armed Forces to come out we cannot sustain that kind of
:47:37. > :47:39.percent of our Armed Forces without percent of our Armed Forces without
:47:40. > :47:43.spending which they are not going to bring. We would have approached
:47:44. > :47:50.bringing more balance. Does this all boil down to trust? Do people trust
:47:51. > :47:55.the Tories they will come good? You did say before the last election HMS
:47:56. > :48:01.Ocean would be safe. Subsequent to the election, it was scrapped. What
:48:02. > :48:08.I said in the tweet, HMS Ocean would be scrapped, that is nonsense. The
:48:09. > :48:11.decisions around equipment and procurement go around all the time.
:48:12. > :48:17.Looking at the threats we face. Spending priorities. When it comes
:48:18. > :48:21.down to trust, I understand the Labour Party have on their manifesto
:48:22. > :48:25.commitment, but ultimately you are led by someone who's a member of
:48:26. > :48:29.CND, he does not believe in it. A vote for Labour for summer like
:48:30. > :48:34.Plymouth be catastrophic. Here we go, trying to bring the argument up
:48:35. > :48:39.to Jeremy Corbyn. He is your leader. What signalled does give to the
:48:40. > :48:47.people in Plymouth that HMS Ocean refitted at 65 million cost in 2015,
:48:48. > :48:53.a predictive life in 2025, scrapped. What if we get the Tied 26s down
:48:54. > :48:57.here to replace that. That is the nature of the fence. What signal
:48:58. > :49:06.does it send around the amphibious capability? Very briefly, people on
:49:07. > :49:10.the doorstep, they think Jeremy Corbyn 's antinuclear? Does that
:49:11. > :49:16.make a difference to how people will vote? The Labour Party is absolutely
:49:17. > :49:22.and seriously committed to an independent nuclear deterrent.
:49:23. > :49:26.Jeremy Corbyn has a personal view about being antinuclear, and many
:49:27. > :49:33.people do. He said he was not a pacifist. We had to move on. Many
:49:34. > :49:35.people see reducing nuclear armaments as a huge thing for our
:49:36. > :49:36.society and world. It was at the centre of last
:49:37. > :49:40.year's EU referendum, and in many parts of the South West
:49:41. > :49:43.it'll be a big issue in this No surprise then that
:49:44. > :49:46.the Environment Secretary was in the region meeting
:49:47. > :49:59.fishermen this week. She was one of the stars of the
:50:00. > :50:02.League campaign. We need to take back control and vote leave on
:50:03. > :50:08.Thursday. Environment Secretary Andrea Leadsom. In Cornwall this
:50:09. > :50:12.week, hanging out in the fishing communities who voted the way she
:50:13. > :50:17.did. I gather Andrea Leadsom was in the patch. Not keen to answer
:50:18. > :50:22.questions about the planned to take back control. A visit intended to be
:50:23. > :50:28.private, apparently. Some of them are, I'm told. For those who did get
:50:29. > :50:33.to meet, a chance to remind her promises made. We were front and
:50:34. > :50:41.centre in the Brexit campaign, prepared to be used then. The
:50:42. > :50:48.negotiators, pray Brexit, and overfishing. Nervousness that a
:50:49. > :50:51.leaving present, exclusive use of the fishing waters up to 12 miles
:50:52. > :50:56.off the British coast could be bargained away. If the final outcome
:50:57. > :51:03.is the UK Government saving a few jobs in the city of London and and
:51:04. > :51:06.betraying the producers and fishermen here, the general public
:51:07. > :51:12.will not be very happy with that. Only yesterday the campaign group
:51:13. > :51:15.Fishing for Leave was due to meet, with the fishing minister, George
:51:16. > :51:19.Eustis. The cancellation of the meeting at short notice has caused
:51:20. > :51:23.some to suppose the government is getting tied up in knots. Somewhere
:51:24. > :51:28.behind the scenes there is a change in policy. Someone cannot say what
:51:29. > :51:32.they were intending to say. Rather than saying the situation has
:51:33. > :51:34.changed, political things are difficult. They have said sorry I
:51:35. > :51:41.cannot come to the meeting. That seems bad. The fishermen here were
:51:42. > :51:45.already a bit worried, the cancellation of this weekend's
:51:46. > :51:47.meeting has unnerved them even more. Some reckon the politicians don't
:51:48. > :51:55.want to answer difficult questions about something called the London
:51:56. > :51:58.Convention. Drawn up before we joined the EU, the London Convention
:51:59. > :52:03.gives other European countries access to the waters between six and
:52:04. > :52:07.12 miles off the British coast. It could still apply even after we
:52:08. > :52:10.leave. And that the government is yet to serve notice on the agreement
:52:11. > :52:14.is seen by some as a potential problem. Perhaps even assign
:52:15. > :52:21.ministers are not serious about a new fishing deal. If it was me, and
:52:22. > :52:25.I was in Andrea Leadsom's or George Eustis's shoes, I would have given
:52:26. > :52:29.notice to clear the ground of any potential trip hazards. Let's be
:52:30. > :52:31.clear, we have raised that. The fishing minister told us this week a
:52:32. > :52:34.Conservative government would definitely take back control the
:52:35. > :52:39.British fishing waters. The fishermen reckon, if you are serious
:52:40. > :52:43.about taking back control he would have torn up the London Convention?
:52:44. > :52:47.It is not about tearing it up. The London Convention have the provision
:52:48. > :52:50.you can give two years notice to leave. Some lawyers would say the
:52:51. > :52:55.common fisheries policy superseded the agreement. We are looking
:52:56. > :52:58.closely at all of the issues. As the prime ministers said, we had to be
:52:59. > :53:03.to make an announcement on this soon. For now Mr Eustis is sticking
:53:04. > :53:06.to the line he gave us back in March. Whether a commitment to get
:53:07. > :53:07.rid of the London Convention makes it into the Conservative manifesto
:53:08. > :53:15.remains to be seen. To discuss this we are joined by the
:53:16. > :53:21.Ukip candidate in South West Devon, Ian Ross. And from our true arose
:53:22. > :53:28.studio, the candidate for St Ives, Andrew George. Ian, if we come to
:53:29. > :53:32.you first, Ukip has launched its policy for fishing, you say you are
:53:33. > :53:37.completely going to take back control of our waters. Would that
:53:38. > :53:43.not antagonise the European union before negotiations? No, I think
:53:44. > :53:47.absolutely not. We're trying to get to the position where we are truly
:53:48. > :53:52.sovereign and independent country again. Most countries in the world
:53:53. > :53:57.who have maritime exclusion zones controlled them exclusively. That is
:53:58. > :54:03.to say, the fishing rights in them are done by those nationals of the
:54:04. > :54:08.country concerned. You will Tarrabt the London agreement, which means
:54:09. > :54:13.the 12 miles outside of our coasts, we could start fishing in
:54:14. > :54:21.straightaway, stop foreign, European vessels fishing. The London
:54:22. > :54:25.Convention affects fishing in the six to 12 mile zone. The late rest
:54:26. > :54:30.of the waters up to 200 miles out, the solution zone is governed by the
:54:31. > :54:34.common fisheries Convention. When we leave the EU, we will drop out of
:54:35. > :54:40.that. They'll be a scenario where EU ships can come in the six and 12
:54:41. > :54:45.mile zone. Andrew, we were speaking to fishermen this week, he told us
:54:46. > :54:48.you personally have been very perceptive to their arguments.
:54:49. > :54:54.Actually the Liberal Democrat party is not so much. What would you say
:54:55. > :54:57.to that? Well, in fact the party and myself when I was fisheries
:54:58. > :55:03.spokesman for the party argued very strong links for the end of the
:55:04. > :55:08.London Convention. What we need to do is bring fisheries regulations up
:55:09. > :55:15.to date. Allowing access between the six and 12 mile zone is in fact
:55:16. > :55:19.rather archaic, as the hysterical entitlement of foreign vessels are
:55:20. > :55:24.indeed vessels that have been scrapped years ago. And the power
:55:25. > :55:28.and effectiveness of those vessels coming from France and other
:55:29. > :55:35.countries into those six and 12 mile zone are not. Should the government
:55:36. > :55:38.have served notice on this already present this is something which
:55:39. > :55:43.could have happened years ago, did not require Brexit to negotiate the
:55:44. > :55:46.six and 12 mile zone. Something which could, and we have been
:55:47. > :55:49.arguing for years, should have been part of the renegotiation and
:55:50. > :55:55.modernisation of the common fisheries policy. Does not require
:55:56. > :56:01.Brexit in any sense, to actually regularise and bring up to date
:56:02. > :56:05.something. Johnny, as a Conservative, why haven't you done
:56:06. > :56:11.this? The Prime Minister was asked about this in the last PMQs, before
:56:12. > :56:15.parliament broke up. I think there will be something on this in a
:56:16. > :56:21.manifesto. That is my feeling. I have no insight into that. On this I
:56:22. > :56:24.will plead the fifth. If we sit here in a week's Tymon is not in a
:56:25. > :56:29.manifesto, let's have a conversation about it. It is clear, you heard
:56:30. > :56:32.challenge around this area. The challenge around this area. The
:56:33. > :56:38.Conservative government is committed to the UK fishing. Something which
:56:39. > :56:41.may be in the Tory manifesto? I don't know. We have been talking
:56:42. > :56:45.about it the years from the triggering of Article 50 was a
:56:46. > :56:48.perfect opportunity to clear the slate, taking back for control of
:56:49. > :56:51.our fisheries, starting the negotiation from there. I am
:56:52. > :56:56.concerned personally the Tory party are hanging back with their real
:56:57. > :57:01.feelings until after the election. Part of their negotiating package.
:57:02. > :57:04.That may not be negotiation that helps and supports our fishermen in
:57:05. > :57:08.the south-west. That might be part of a bigger deal to help people in
:57:09. > :57:17.the south-east get their rights for bankers. Could you reply to that?
:57:18. > :57:19.The idea, we have been through the whole argument about using EU
:57:20. > :57:24.nationals at negotiating chips, very emotive. All Theresa May and the
:57:25. > :57:27.government and George Eustis is trying to do is get the best deal
:57:28. > :57:32.fishermen. You will see more detail fishermen. You will see more detail
:57:33. > :57:38.on that in the manifesto. Could fishermen suffer as part of getting
:57:39. > :57:43.a good negotiating deal? I think fishermen have been sold a cruel
:57:44. > :57:47.hoax. Through the leaving process. You might as well put the reclaiming
:57:48. > :57:54.of the fishing waters out of a 200 mile limit on the site of a red
:57:55. > :57:58.campaign bus. There is no way which that can be achieved unless you are
:57:59. > :58:02.prepared to enforce that with gunboats, and be on a war footing.
:58:03. > :58:12.What we need is to be very realistic about what can be achieved outside
:58:13. > :58:14.of the 12 mile limit. It is, the fishermen themselves have been let
:58:15. > :58:21.down. I have to leave it there. Thank you.
:58:22. > :58:25.There is a full list of candidates standing on June the 8th on the BBC
:58:26. > :58:28.website. Now our regular round-up
:58:29. > :58:42.of the political week Exeter's Labour MP Ben Bradshaw
:58:43. > :58:47.refused to endorse his own party's league manifesto, when asked about
:58:48. > :58:52.this week. I have my own manifesto. Support it? I support my Exeter
:58:53. > :58:59.manifesto. Meanwhile Labour rejected the Green Party's offer not to stand
:59:00. > :59:07.in Exeter, in exchange for not starting in the Isle of Wight. When
:59:08. > :59:11.we are told when the election would be, and suddenly moving forward
:59:12. > :59:16.three years, making a nonsense of democracy for smaller parties.
:59:17. > :59:19.Secondary schools in Devon say they're cutting hundreds of jobs,
:59:20. > :59:23.removing the number of courses on offer to balance their books. Not
:59:24. > :59:28.good enough to say there is not enough money. This is the future of
:59:29. > :59:32.our country and children. A row erupting over the use of children as
:59:33. > :59:47.political props, after a visit from Tim Farron. Let's look at this row,
:59:48. > :59:52.Tim Farren using children as political props. Tim Farron was at a
:59:53. > :59:56.school which your children attend, and your wife put up some footage,
:59:57. > :00:01.unhappy enough to stay during protest up the road. In favour of
:00:02. > :00:04.the Tory party. She tweeted, your children should not be used as
:00:05. > :00:11.political props. This is something you support. I support my wife. She
:00:12. > :00:15.said, and I think she has a clear point. During a general election
:00:16. > :00:19.campaign schools should not be used to launch campaign policies. I
:00:20. > :00:25.support in that. Everybody is entitled to different view. Even if
:00:26. > :00:28.it is about school policy. Those children don't have a choice about
:00:29. > :00:31.being there. I go out on the campaign trail with my children all
:00:32. > :00:35.the time. I believe people are looking at me, I want them to know
:00:36. > :00:41.me and my family, know what motivates me. There are pictures of
:00:42. > :00:44.you sitting with children? During a campaign period, no, that was what
:00:45. > :00:51.was said. Gareth, we saw Ben Bradshaw there. I am being told,
:00:52. > :00:53.that is the end of the programme. That is the Sunday holed politics.
:00:54. > :00:58.Thanks to both my guess. I hand Tories are saying. It is a very
:00:59. > :01:05.emotive subject and we have run out of time.
:01:06. > :01:10.On Thursday nominations closed in the 650 parliamentary
:01:11. > :01:12.seats across the country, so now we know exactly who's
:01:13. > :01:19.We've been analysing the parties' candidates to find out
:01:20. > :01:22.what they might tell us about the make-up of the House
:01:23. > :01:26.Well, we know Theresa May is committed to delivering Brexit and
:01:27. > :01:31.analysis of Conservative candidates has shown that
:01:32. > :01:34.in their top 100 target seats, 37 candidates supported leave
:01:35. > :01:42.during last year's referendum campaign
:01:43. > :01:44.and 20 supported remain; 43 have not made public
:01:45. > :01:50.In the last parliament, the vast majority of Labour MPs
:01:51. > :01:52.were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how supportive are Labour
:01:53. > :01:59.Well, of 50 of Labour's top 100 target seats
:02:00. > :02:01.17 candidates have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.
:02:02. > :02:06.20 candidates supported Owen Smith in last year's leadership contest
:02:07. > :02:10.or have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiment, and
:02:11. > :02:16.If they won those, the Labour benches would be
:02:17. > :02:18.marginally more sympathetic to Mr Corbyn than they are now.
:02:19. > :02:20.What do the figures tell us about where the other
:02:21. > :02:24.Well, the Lib Dems have decided not to stand against the Greens
:02:25. > :02:26.in Brighton Pavilion, and are fielding 629
:02:27. > :02:29.candidates this year - that's two fewer than 2015.
:02:30. > :02:33.The number of Ukip candidates has fallen dramatically.
:02:34. > :02:39.They are standing in 247 fewer constituencies than 2015,
:02:40. > :02:41.throwing their support behind solidly pro-Brexit Tories
:02:42. > :02:46.in some areas such as Lewes and Norfolk North.
:02:47. > :02:49.The Greens are fielding 103 fewer candidates
:02:50. > :03:00.than at the last election, standing down to help
:03:01. > :03:06.other progressive candidates in some places.
:03:07. > :03:19.The most liking statistic is the demise in Ukip candidates, is this
:03:20. > :03:25.their swansong? And I think so. It is remarkable how few Ukip
:03:26. > :03:29.candidates are standing. It is hard to see they will suddenly revive in
:03:30. > :03:39.the next couple of years. I think this is probably the end. Frank
:03:40. > :03:43.Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of the left was a feature of this
:03:44. > :03:46.election, but also there is the consolidation of the right, and if
:03:47. > :03:51.you take the things together that could explain why the polls are
:03:52. > :03:56.where they are. Absolutely, that's precisely what happened at the start
:03:57. > :04:01.of the 1980s, the right was incredibly united and that's when we
:04:02. > :04:08.started talking about majorities of over 100 or so. No matter what the
:04:09. > :04:12.size of Theresa May's majority, it will be the total collapse of Ukip,
:04:13. > :04:18.but not just because we are now leaving the EU and that was their
:04:19. > :04:22.only reason for being, but a whole lot of people voted for Ukip because
:04:23. > :04:30.they felt the Tories were no longer listening. Theresa May has given the
:04:31. > :04:33.impression that she is listening, and that is the biggest possible
:04:34. > :04:42.thing that could happen to the Tory vote. Fragmentation of the left,
:04:43. > :04:48.consolidation of the right? It's one of the lessons that is never learnt,
:04:49. > :04:52.it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't take much for the whole thing to
:04:53. > :04:58.fracture so now you have on the centre-left the SNP, the Labour
:04:59. > :05:03.Party, the Greens, the Liberal Democrats all competing for the same
:05:04. > :05:07.votes and when you have, fleetingly perhaps, large numbers coalescing on
:05:08. > :05:13.the right in one party, there is only going to be one outcome. It
:05:14. > :05:18.happens regularly. It doesn't mean the Tories haven't got their own
:05:19. > :05:22.fragility. Two years ago, David Cameron and George Osborne the
:05:23. > :05:26.dominant figures, neither are in Parliament now which is a symptom of
:05:27. > :05:32.the fragility this election is disguising. Mrs May's position in a
:05:33. > :05:37.way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on
:05:38. > :05:41.the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in France, I won't be outflanked on the
:05:42. > :05:44.right, so the National Front didn't get through either timed he ran to
:05:45. > :05:51.the second round on like this time, and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be
:05:52. > :05:55.outflanked Iver and as a result has seen off right flank. And also she
:05:56. > :05:59.is looking to the left as well with some of the state interventions.
:06:00. > :06:02.What was interesting about the analysis you showed a few minutes
:06:03. > :06:07.ago was the number of Tory candidates who have apparently not
:06:08. > :06:11.declared which way they voted in the referendum, and you would have
:06:12. > :06:15.thought if this election was all about Brexit, as some would claim,
:06:16. > :06:20.that would become an unsustainable position, and actually more it's
:06:21. > :06:25.about leadership. But the point that I'm now hearing from a number of
:06:26. > :06:31.Labour candidates that they are seeing Tory leaflets that don't even
:06:32. > :06:36.have the Tory candidate's name on them, it is just about Theresa May.
:06:37. > :06:41.I am glad they are keeping to the law because by law they have to put
:06:42. > :06:47.it on. It has been harder for some of the smaller parties too because
:06:48. > :06:53.of the speed of the election being called. We have the manifesto is
:06:54. > :06:57.coming out this week. I think Labour Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet
:06:58. > :07:01.sure when the Tories will bring bears out. I suggest one thing, it
:07:02. > :07:09.will at least for people like me bring an end to the question you
:07:10. > :07:12.will have to wait for the manifesto. And Rebecca Long baby will never
:07:13. > :07:22.have that excuse again, isn't it wonderful! She is not the only one.
:07:23. > :07:28.When you are trying to take the north and Midlands from Labour, I
:07:29. > :07:33.would go to one or the other. For me, I can barely hold back my
:07:34. > :07:36.excitement over the Tory manifesto. This will be, I think, the most
:07:37. > :07:45.important day for the British government for the next five years.
:07:46. > :07:50.That wasn't irony there? You actually meant that? I'm not even
:07:51. > :07:57.being cynical at all on Sunday Politics! This is a huge day and
:07:58. > :08:01.it's because I think we will see... I don't think Mrs May will play it
:08:02. > :08:07.safe and I don't think we will get the broadbrush stuff that she might
:08:08. > :08:11.be advised to do. I think she will lay out precisely what you want to
:08:12. > :08:16.do over the next five years and take some big risks. Then finally after a
:08:17. > :08:20.year of this guessing and theorising, we will finally work out
:08:21. > :08:23.what Mrs May is all about. She will say she doesn't want the next
:08:24. > :08:27.parliament to be all about Brexit, though she knows that's the next
:08:28. > :08:31.important thing she has to deliver in some way, so she gets a mandate
:08:32. > :08:42.for that if the polls are right but she
:08:43. > :08:47.does have very different ideas from Mr Cameron about how to run a
:08:48. > :08:49.country. She will I assume one to mandate for what these different
:08:50. > :08:51.ideas are. Otherwise there is no point in holding an early election.
:08:52. > :08:55.You will get a majority, but if you get a mandate to carry on
:08:56. > :08:58.implementing the Cameron and Osborne manifesto it would be utterly
:08:59. > :09:01.pointless. I agree, it is the pivotal event of the election and it
:09:02. > :09:05.will be interesting to see the degree to which she expands on the
:09:06. > :09:10.line which interests me about its time to look at the good that
:09:11. > :09:17.government can do. Because in a way this moves the debate on in UK
:09:18. > :09:20.politics from, from 97 the Blair Brown governments were insecure
:09:21. > :09:25.about arguing about the role of government. Cameron Osborne
:09:26. > :09:29.government similarly so, so here you have a Labour Party talking about
:09:30. > :09:33.the role of government and the state, and Tory leader apparently
:09:34. > :09:37.doing so was well. I think that will be really interesting to see whether
:09:38. > :09:43.it is fleshed out in any significant way. And it is not a natural Tory
:09:44. > :09:50.message. Harold Macmillan talked about the role of the state, Ted
:09:51. > :09:55.Heath Mark two was pretty big on the state, the industrial policy and so
:09:56. > :09:59.on, and even if it is not thought to be that Tory, does she get away with
:10:00. > :10:04.it because she deliver such a big victory if that's what she does
:10:05. > :10:10.deliver? Just inject a little note of scepticism, I wonder how much of
:10:11. > :10:18.this is authentically Theresa May. I was interested to and talk to
:10:19. > :10:21.someone who used to sit in cabinet meetings during which Theresa May
:10:22. > :10:24.never expressed an opinion on anything outside the Home Office
:10:25. > :10:33.briefs. Other ministers were roving all over their colleagues' briefs.
:10:34. > :10:40.So where are the ideas coming from? I think we can point to Nick
:10:41. > :10:45.Timothy. One of her closest advisers in Downing Street. It will be
:10:46. > :10:51.interesting to see how that evolves. On Thursday I think we will all be
:10:52. > :11:01.talking about something called Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the
:11:02. > :11:06.suburb of Birmingham where Nick Timothy comes from, who is very much
:11:07. > :11:11.Theresa May's policy brain and leading inspiration. Urdington
:11:12. > :11:16.Toryism is about connecting the party with traditional working class
:11:17. > :11:20.voters, and their belief to do that is not just taking away government
:11:21. > :11:24.out of their lives but showing them that government can actually help
:11:25. > :11:36.their lives. It can be a force for good to rebuild the trust. A lot of
:11:37. > :11:40.what Mrs May talks about is all... It is talk and then a lot of it
:11:41. > :11:49.suddenly goes by the wayside. What happened to worker directors on the
:11:50. > :11:53.boards. It is designed to appeal to that constituency and then nothing
:11:54. > :11:58.happens. She had an excuse before in the sense that it wasn't in the 2015
:11:59. > :12:02.manifesto and she had a small majority so therefore she arguably
:12:03. > :12:07.had to water down some of the stuff for example in her Tory conference
:12:08. > :12:11.speech, which had a lot of this active government material in it. If
:12:12. > :12:16.she puts it in the manifesto, it is a sign she plans to do it and will
:12:17. > :12:20.have no excuse if she then gets nervous afterwards because it will
:12:21. > :12:25.be in there. If it wasn't for Brexit, this great overwhelming
:12:26. > :12:28.issue, I think this election will be seen as quite a significant
:12:29. > :12:33.development in terms of an argument around the role of government,
:12:34. > :12:38.much-needed. But Brexit unfortunately overshadows it all. As
:12:39. > :12:42.much as we like our arguments over the role of government we will hear
:12:43. > :12:50.strong and stable, stable and strong ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely,
:12:51. > :12:56.and we heard the same old lines from the Labour Party as well so they are
:12:57. > :12:59.all at it. It will be a fascinating week, stop talking it down! Thanks
:13:00. > :13:02.to our panel. The Daily Politics will be
:13:03. > :13:04.back on BBC Two at noon I'll be back here at the same time
:13:05. > :13:09.on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:10. > :13:43.it's the Sunday Politics. When it came to my TV habits,
:13:44. > :13:46.I'd watch anything... But now I can sign in online
:13:47. > :13:51.and get more of what I love. I'm kept up to date
:13:52. > :13:53.with the shows I love and I get suggestions
:13:54. > :13:56.on subjects I'll like. A new personalised BBC
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