:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:42.Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test
:00:43. > :00:45.So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead
:00:46. > :00:51.Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness.
:00:52. > :00:56.We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans.
:00:57. > :00:58.The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives.
:00:59. > :01:03.In the South West: is Labour narrowing the gap?
:01:04. > :01:06.The manifestos may be out, but the wait for a storm-proof
:01:07. > :01:20.alternative to the region's main rail link continues.
:01:21. > :01:23.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:24. > :01:25.panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:26. > :01:27.and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout
:01:28. > :01:29.the programme, and you can get involved by using
:01:30. > :01:38.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year
:01:39. > :01:50.worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto.
:01:51. > :01:56.The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not
:01:57. > :02:00.rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in
:02:01. > :02:06.the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000,
:02:07. > :02:11.would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John
:02:12. > :02:14.McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that
:02:15. > :02:18.there needs to be more cross-party consensus.
:02:19. > :02:20.That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported
:02:21. > :02:23.Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations,
:02:24. > :02:25.so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party,
:02:26. > :02:28.Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually
:02:29. > :02:32.I just feel we've all been let down by what's come
:02:33. > :02:43.Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had
:02:44. > :02:46.last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved
:02:47. > :02:51.Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there
:02:52. > :02:55.are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this
:02:56. > :02:59.campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that
:03:00. > :03:06.the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through
:03:07. > :03:09.very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just
:03:10. > :03:21.pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future.
:03:22. > :03:23.They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have
:03:24. > :03:26.lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that
:03:27. > :03:31.they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a
:03:32. > :03:38.sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of
:03:39. > :03:42.something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short
:03:43. > :03:47.time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages
:03:48. > :03:51.from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to
:03:52. > :03:56.whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point.
:03:57. > :04:02.That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory
:04:03. > :04:05.party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than
:04:06. > :04:10.anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the
:04:11. > :04:14.normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a
:04:15. > :04:21.reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong
:04:22. > :04:24.with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all
:04:25. > :04:28.this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an
:04:29. > :04:33.election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time
:04:34. > :04:38.in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and
:04:39. > :04:41.so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is
:04:42. > :04:47.electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the
:04:48. > :04:54.target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is
:04:55. > :04:59.rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending
:05:00. > :05:04.of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted
:05:05. > :05:13.commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the
:05:14. > :05:16.spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge
:05:17. > :05:25.problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a
:05:26. > :05:29.look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April,
:05:30. > :05:35.Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median
:05:36. > :05:40.average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead
:05:41. > :05:49.over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%.
:05:50. > :05:54.A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the
:05:55. > :05:57.intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had
:05:58. > :06:02.increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday
:06:03. > :06:08.came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time,
:06:09. > :06:14.Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip
:06:15. > :06:18.had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from
:06:19. > :06:23.the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This
:06:24. > :06:30.is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%,
:06:31. > :06:34.up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are
:06:35. > :06:41.down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both
:06:42. > :06:47.unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC
:06:48. > :06:52.website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national
:06:53. > :06:55.polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly
:06:56. > :07:00.weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an
:07:01. > :07:06.extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this
:07:07. > :07:12.campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib
:07:13. > :07:17.Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour
:07:18. > :07:22.would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low
:07:23. > :07:29.30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of
:07:30. > :07:33.the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I
:07:34. > :07:39.would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's
:07:40. > :07:45.result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want
:07:46. > :07:52.Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June
:07:53. > :07:57.the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think
:07:58. > :08:02.it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I
:08:03. > :08:07.think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he
:08:08. > :08:13.has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls
:08:14. > :08:18.are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead
:08:19. > :08:30.widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP -
:08:31. > :08:33.Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem
:08:34. > :08:36.to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But
:08:37. > :08:39.let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are
:08:40. > :08:44.saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really
:08:45. > :08:47.know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been
:08:48. > :08:53.the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't
:08:54. > :08:57.done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the
:08:58. > :09:04.Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is
:09:05. > :09:09.incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and
:09:10. > :09:14.that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour
:09:15. > :09:18.share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how
:09:19. > :09:22.turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that.
:09:23. > :09:24.We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main
:09:25. > :09:27.parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that
:09:28. > :09:31.So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public?
:09:32. > :09:32.Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out
:09:33. > :09:35.coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour
:09:36. > :09:38.Welcome to the BBC's election centre.
:09:39. > :09:41.Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00,
:09:42. > :09:45.we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll.
:09:46. > :09:48.18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio
:09:49. > :09:58.This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet.
:09:59. > :10:01.The parties' policies are now the finished product.
:10:02. > :10:04.In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state,
:10:05. > :10:07.the end of austerity, no more tuition fees.
:10:08. > :10:15.The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear.
:10:16. > :10:23.Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get
:10:24. > :10:25.immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked
:10:26. > :10:29.of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times.
:10:30. > :10:35.Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me
:10:36. > :10:41.And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity
:10:42. > :10:48.of purpose in our country, let us go forward together.
:10:49. > :10:52.Let's look at the Labour and Conservative
:10:53. > :10:58.On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners.
:10:59. > :11:21.The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them
:11:22. > :11:23.freedom to put up income tax and national insurance,
:11:24. > :11:26.although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same.
:11:27. > :11:28.Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring,
:11:29. > :11:30.with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power,
:11:31. > :11:33.The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune,
:11:34. > :11:35.but provided few details for the cost of their policies.
:11:36. > :11:38.Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's
:11:39. > :11:40.manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up.
:11:41. > :11:42.What have they got planned for health and social care?
:11:43. > :11:46.The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS,
:11:47. > :11:49.reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament.
:11:50. > :11:53.Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period,
:11:54. > :11:59.plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff.
:12:00. > :12:07.The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could
:12:08. > :12:10.protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be
:12:11. > :12:11.added to the assessment of your wealth,
:12:12. > :12:16.There was a focus on one group of voters in particular
:12:17. > :12:21.Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up
:12:22. > :12:27.The Tories would keep the increase in line
:12:28. > :12:30.with inflation or earnings, a double lock.
:12:31. > :12:33.The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments
:12:34. > :12:36.for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be,
:12:37. > :12:45.This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners,
:12:46. > :12:49.particularly those who are just about managing.
:12:50. > :12:52.It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party
:12:53. > :12:59.When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say
:13:00. > :13:02.they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy,
:13:03. > :13:05.secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights
:13:06. > :13:11.The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty
:13:12. > :13:23.Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks.
:13:24. > :13:29.I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
:13:30. > :13:36.Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social
:13:37. > :13:44.care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there
:13:45. > :13:49.are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit
:13:50. > :13:53.would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was
:13:54. > :13:58.hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would
:13:59. > :14:04.fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging.
:14:05. > :14:09.Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new
:14:10. > :14:13.proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care,
:14:14. > :14:18.which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a
:14:19. > :14:23.country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is
:14:24. > :14:30.one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that
:14:31. > :14:33.Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those
:14:34. > :14:39.big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets,
:14:40. > :14:43.including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all
:14:44. > :14:47.your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the
:14:48. > :14:53.services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your
:14:54. > :14:57.assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you
:14:58. > :15:04.shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are
:15:05. > :15:10.in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in
:15:11. > :15:16.domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary.
:15:17. > :15:20.Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if
:15:21. > :15:23.they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that
:15:24. > :15:33.in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a
:15:34. > :15:38.chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a
:15:39. > :15:41.stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we
:15:42. > :15:45.have those two important protections. I am including that. It
:15:46. > :15:50.is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that
:15:51. > :15:54.there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health
:15:55. > :15:59.and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those
:16:00. > :16:04.issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa
:16:05. > :16:08.May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British
:16:09. > :16:10.people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto
:16:11. > :16:15.was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was
:16:16. > :16:19.intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong
:16:20. > :16:25.economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is
:16:26. > :16:29.going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance
:16:30. > :16:31.between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We
:16:32. > :16:35.think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it
:16:36. > :16:40.is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if
:16:41. > :16:46.they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home,
:16:47. > :16:50.they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are
:16:51. > :16:55.reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything
:16:56. > :17:01.on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential
:17:02. > :17:06.care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the
:17:07. > :17:10.individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are
:17:11. > :17:13.seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is
:17:14. > :17:18.eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a
:17:19. > :17:23.worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that
:17:24. > :17:26.money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for
:17:27. > :17:30.it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to
:17:31. > :17:34.have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong
:17:35. > :17:38.economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good
:17:39. > :17:42.deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You
:17:43. > :17:47.have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the
:17:48. > :17:51.NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay
:17:52. > :17:55.for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case
:17:56. > :17:59.that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are
:18:00. > :18:04.in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if
:18:05. > :18:09.you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but
:18:10. > :18:14.all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a
:18:15. > :18:21.year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires
:18:22. > :18:25.to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term
:18:26. > :18:29.challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to
:18:30. > :18:36.deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and
:18:37. > :18:40.falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the
:18:41. > :18:44.amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them,
:18:45. > :18:48.those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up
:18:49. > :18:54.anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy
:18:55. > :18:58.of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to
:18:59. > :19:03.spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps
:19:04. > :19:08.in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during
:19:09. > :19:14.their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are
:19:15. > :19:19.providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a
:19:20. > :19:24.kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against.
:19:25. > :19:29.What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their
:19:30. > :19:32.assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to
:19:33. > :19:38.be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the
:19:39. > :19:41.last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called
:19:42. > :19:45.it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax
:19:46. > :19:51.inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same
:19:52. > :19:59.effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We
:20:00. > :20:01.are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but
:20:02. > :20:08.the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of
:20:09. > :20:11.assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might
:20:12. > :20:15.now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay
:20:16. > :20:20.a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my
:20:21. > :20:25.bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going
:20:26. > :20:29.to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration,
:20:30. > :20:34.you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You
:20:35. > :20:39.promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters
:20:40. > :20:43.trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative
:20:44. > :20:48.Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An
:20:49. > :20:52.ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that
:20:53. > :20:56.come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a
:20:57. > :20:59.period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our
:21:00. > :21:02.European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly,
:21:03. > :21:10.that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But
:21:11. > :21:15.it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it
:21:16. > :21:19.is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're
:21:20. > :21:22.after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative
:21:23. > :21:27.Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an
:21:28. > :21:30.ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an
:21:31. > :21:36.untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you
:21:37. > :21:41.came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at
:21:42. > :21:46.the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after
:21:47. > :21:53.six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So
:21:54. > :21:57.if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept
:21:58. > :22:02.that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the
:22:03. > :22:06.UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly
:22:07. > :22:10.drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not
:22:11. > :22:12.happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a
:22:13. > :22:18.way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors.
:22:19. > :22:20.But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the
:22:21. > :22:27.course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for
:22:28. > :22:30.example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it
:22:31. > :22:33.has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would
:22:34. > :22:39.have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we
:22:40. > :22:44.cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the
:22:45. > :22:48.hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the
:22:49. > :22:53.things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that
:22:54. > :22:58.but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame
:22:59. > :23:01.the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU.
:23:02. > :23:08.Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt
:23:09. > :23:13.you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit
:23:14. > :23:18.from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot
:23:19. > :23:22.more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on
:23:23. > :23:26.the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that
:23:27. > :23:29.when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when
:23:30. > :23:35.the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into
:23:36. > :23:39.the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration
:23:40. > :23:44.we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by
:23:45. > :23:49.anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools
:23:50. > :23:54.available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030
:23:55. > :23:58.before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more
:23:59. > :24:02.tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six
:24:03. > :24:05.or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the
:24:06. > :24:10.UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary
:24:11. > :24:13.how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration
:24:14. > :24:17.target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well?
:24:18. > :24:20.That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to
:24:21. > :24:25.create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or
:24:26. > :24:28.seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been.
:24:29. > :24:34.George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree
:24:35. > :24:40.with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that
:24:41. > :24:44.point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the
:24:45. > :24:49.wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have
:24:50. > :24:53.hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one
:24:54. > :24:56.other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that
:24:57. > :25:01.spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than
:25:02. > :25:04.it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago
:25:05. > :25:10.we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that
:25:11. > :25:14.we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on
:25:15. > :25:19.track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the
:25:20. > :25:23.money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find
:25:24. > :25:29.the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this
:25:30. > :25:33.?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend
:25:34. > :25:37.more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only
:25:38. > :25:42.way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy,
:25:43. > :25:46.and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to
:25:47. > :25:50.find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know
:25:51. > :25:54.you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off
:25:55. > :26:01.the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us
:26:02. > :26:05.where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to
:26:06. > :26:09.delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is
:26:10. > :26:13.coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad
:26:14. > :26:17.Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of
:26:18. > :26:20.putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can
:26:21. > :26:23.take forward. Thank you for joining us.
:26:24. > :26:25.So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak
:26:26. > :26:29.But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking
:26:30. > :26:33.Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today:
:26:34. > :26:37.What we're trying to do is to address what I think
:26:38. > :26:39.everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive
:26:40. > :26:44.problem of the cost of social care long-term.
:26:45. > :26:47.This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach,
:26:48. > :26:50.trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable,
:26:51. > :26:52.allows people to pass on a very substantial sum,
:26:53. > :26:54.still, to their kids, and takes away the fear
:26:55. > :27:01.Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary
:27:02. > :27:13.Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social
:27:14. > :27:16.care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets,
:27:17. > :27:22.you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well,
:27:23. > :27:26.I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is
:27:27. > :27:31.it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we
:27:32. > :27:36.have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you
:27:37. > :27:40.actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get
:27:41. > :27:46.to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to
:27:47. > :27:50.expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the
:27:51. > :27:55.south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas
:27:56. > :27:58.around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They
:27:59. > :28:02.have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they
:28:03. > :28:09.are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for
:28:10. > :28:13.their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be
:28:14. > :28:17.paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and
:28:18. > :28:20.health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for
:28:21. > :28:24.example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an
:28:25. > :28:28.elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care
:28:29. > :28:33.for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you
:28:34. > :28:36.have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by
:28:37. > :28:39.the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable
:28:40. > :28:48.balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not
:28:49. > :28:53.sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house
:28:54. > :28:57.prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people
:28:58. > :29:03.may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to
:29:04. > :29:07.?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only
:29:08. > :29:13.?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much
:29:14. > :29:18.before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but
:29:19. > :29:22.is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you
:29:23. > :29:27.are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and
:29:28. > :29:30.if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth
:29:31. > :29:35.very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I
:29:36. > :29:39.think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across
:29:40. > :29:45.the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it
:29:46. > :29:49.is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much
:29:50. > :29:53.examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The
:29:54. > :29:56.Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy
:29:57. > :30:01.which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of
:30:02. > :30:10.the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more
:30:11. > :30:13.fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan
:30:14. > :30:18.approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not
:30:19. > :30:23.pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy.
:30:24. > :30:29.The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending
:30:30. > :30:34.over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health
:30:35. > :30:39.spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better
:30:40. > :30:45.than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to
:30:46. > :30:50.the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't
:30:51. > :30:55.put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated
:30:56. > :31:00.approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the
:31:01. > :31:05.same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for
:31:06. > :31:13.here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you
:31:14. > :31:17.again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted
:31:18. > :31:24.in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way
:31:25. > :31:28.are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is
:31:29. > :31:33.how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say,
:31:34. > :31:39.if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody
:31:40. > :31:43.who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different
:31:44. > :31:49.approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7,
:31:50. > :31:53.may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting
:31:54. > :32:07.in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You
:32:08. > :32:10.are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are
:32:11. > :32:12.going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't
:32:13. > :32:15.necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will
:32:16. > :32:19.follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is
:32:20. > :32:26.capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at
:32:27. > :32:36.five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So
:32:37. > :32:40.pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of
:32:41. > :32:45.policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour
:32:46. > :32:52.Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith,
:32:53. > :32:57.defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are
:32:58. > :33:08.committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it?
:33:09. > :33:11.Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence
:33:12. > :33:17.review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday
:33:18. > :33:22.night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually
:33:23. > :33:27.said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new
:33:28. > :33:32.government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept
:33:33. > :33:38.of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in
:33:39. > :33:42.terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce
:33:43. > :33:49.something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap
:33:50. > :33:53.Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you
:33:54. > :33:59.protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she
:34:00. > :34:04.was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour
:34:05. > :34:11.would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that
:34:12. > :34:15.MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his
:34:16. > :34:24.links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to
:34:25. > :34:30.the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen
:34:31. > :34:37.to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn
:34:38. > :34:42.all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done
:34:43. > :34:47.with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in
:34:48. > :34:53.Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between
:34:54. > :34:59.state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense,
:35:00. > :35:05.the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political
:35:06. > :35:09.prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some
:35:10. > :35:16.kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if
:35:17. > :35:23.you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been
:35:24. > :35:28.allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That
:35:29. > :35:32.was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the
:35:33. > :35:36.Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our
:35:37. > :35:43.next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think
:35:44. > :35:46.it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying
:35:47. > :35:56.to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn
:35:57. > :36:03.IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish -
:36:04. > :36:09.British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated
:36:10. > :36:13.matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of
:36:14. > :36:18.peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say
:36:19. > :36:24.this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You
:36:25. > :36:29.would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he
:36:30. > :36:30.was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process
:36:31. > :36:34.along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:36:35. > :36:36.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:36:37. > :36:46.in Scotland and Wales. Coming up on the Sunday Politics
:36:47. > :36:51.here in the South West: The manifestos may be out,
:36:52. > :36:54.but the wait for a storm-proof alternative to the region's main
:36:55. > :36:58.rail link continues. I'm joined by the Ukip candidate
:36:59. > :37:03.for North Devon, Steve Crowther, and the Green candidate for the
:37:04. > :37:07.Totnes constituency, Jacqui Hodgson. Welcome, both of you,
:37:08. > :37:09.to the programme. Let's start with the legal
:37:10. > :37:12.challenges which are being launched against plans to halve the number
:37:13. > :37:15.of in-patient beds in community It's the latest local manifestation
:37:16. > :37:38.of widespread concern at the huge This is a massive issue so I'm
:37:39. > :37:44.looking for an overview of your proposals. Neither of you have
:37:45. > :37:50.manifestos out yet. We have a Green guaranteed coming out tomorrow. And
:37:51. > :37:54.you have some bullet points and you say you will close the spending gap
:37:55. > :38:00.which gives access to GPs and hospital treatment. We believe in
:38:01. > :38:08.bringing back NHS completely into public ownership. The privatisation
:38:09. > :38:12.by stealth since the 1970s has been chipping away and challenging the
:38:13. > :38:18.and it is not always obvious that we and it is not always obvious that we
:38:19. > :38:23.would like to close that, take away that private element and we would do
:38:24. > :38:30.it by looking at some of the spending in other areas, for example
:38:31. > :38:35.we wouldn't be looking at spending ?100 billion on renewal of Trident.
:38:36. > :38:41.Hood tax which it is estimated could Hood tax which it is estimated could
:38:42. > :38:48.bring money back into the NHS, 0.5% of high financial transactions.
:38:49. > :38:52.Steve, remembering previous Ukip manifestos suggest you will not take
:38:53. > :38:56.money away from the defence budget for the NHS. No, we have made a
:38:57. > :39:01.strong link between the foreign aid strong link between the foreign aid
:39:02. > :39:09.budget and the NHS, we would look to reduce the foreign aid budget from
:39:10. > :39:15.0.7% to 0.2% and put many of those billions into the NHS to close the
:39:16. > :39:15.gap and I would advocate a considerable proportion of that
:39:16. > :39:21.would come to the chaos that is would come to the chaos that is
:39:22. > :39:26.happening here. I think one of the things that is sad about this is
:39:27. > :39:31.that communities are coming out in force, forced onto the streets, I
:39:32. > :39:33.went to one of the Clinical Commissioning Group consultations
:39:34. > :39:39.last year in Totnes and it was last year in Totnes and it was
:39:40. > :39:42.alarming to find out that not only was the sustainability and
:39:43. > :39:45.transformation programme presented, although it was a public
:39:46. > :39:50.consultation the measures had already happened, they were
:39:51. > :39:53.recruiting for the new programme and yet the hospital closures we are
:39:54. > :39:55.facing, judicial reviews are at being brought in.
:39:56. > :39:57.More than three years after the main Paddington to Penzance line
:39:58. > :40:00.collapsed into the sea at Dawlish, transport campaigners are still
:40:01. > :40:01.waiting for the politicians to commit to
:40:02. > :40:05.a major, modern upgrade for the region's rail links.
:40:06. > :40:11.If they were hoping that wait would be cut short by
:40:12. > :40:13.the parties' election manifestos, they were in for a disappointment,
:40:14. > :40:18.Trainspotters will know this steam locomotive is not from the right era
:40:19. > :40:21.but there was talk in the new Conservative manifesto
:40:22. > :40:27.this week of the largest investment in railways since Victorian times.
:40:28. > :40:32.The 1937 Sir Nigel Gresley is seen here travelling along the sea wall
:40:33. > :40:34.at Dawlish just six weeks after the line reopened
:40:35. > :40:41.Three years on, while some resilience work has been carried
:40:42. > :40:45.out, there is still no final decision on a permanent solution
:40:46. > :40:47.or a positive alternative route and the former
:40:48. > :40:50.Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin did little to raise hopes
:40:51. > :40:56.on a visit to Plymouth station on Tuesday.
:40:57. > :40:59.I'm pleased in the next few years we will be getting
:41:00. > :41:02.brand-new trains down here, new Hitachi trains,
:41:03. > :41:06.so that is a huge investment and work that went on around Dawlish
:41:07. > :41:13.and we would like to reinforce that but it is a very difficult
:41:14. > :41:19.The Conservative manifesto does mention a ?40 billion investment
:41:20. > :41:24.in roads and railways over the rest of the decade.
:41:25. > :41:28.There is funding to improve key roads in areas of the country
:41:29. > :41:32.which feel left behind because of poor transport links,
:41:33. > :41:35.and even more money so local authorities can improve cycle
:41:36. > :41:39.networks but no specific mention of any more money
:41:40. > :41:47.There is direct reference made to HS2 and northern powerhouse rail.
:41:48. > :41:50.The Conservative chairman of the peninsula rail task force
:41:51. > :42:03.says he is not overly concerned at the lack of regional detail.
:42:04. > :42:06.If there's nothing in there and nobody else has detail on it,
:42:07. > :42:10.It's important that we want to make sure the government carries
:42:11. > :42:14.It has made commitments, it said it will sort out the railway
:42:15. > :42:17.But this Labour councillor is not convinced the region
:42:18. > :42:20.I'm very disappointed that the government,
:42:21. > :42:23.despite us being one of the richest countries in the world,
:42:24. > :42:25.is failing to invest in places like the South West.
:42:26. > :42:28.We are very important and I think there could be a lot done.
:42:29. > :42:32.We have an opportunity that could be taken to reopen a link
:42:33. > :42:36.between Exeter and Plymouth, it's not just about another train
:42:37. > :42:39.route but imagine what that would do to our communities in that part
:42:40. > :42:42.of the world, bringing communities together,
:42:43. > :42:47.a good link to Exeter and beyond, so that's what we should do.
:42:48. > :42:50.The government points to investment in new high-speed trains
:42:51. > :42:52.due to enter service on the Great Western line
:42:53. > :42:57.The hope is funding for the region's only mainline
:42:58. > :43:02.into Devon and Cornwall will arrive before then.
:43:03. > :43:05.Scott Bingham, and to discuss this we're joined by Conservative
:43:06. > :43:12.candidate in Exeter, James Taghdissian.
:43:13. > :43:19.Welcome to the programme. We heard from Patrick McLoughlin who was
:43:20. > :43:25.Transport Secretary around the Dawlish disaster. Given he had that
:43:26. > :43:32.background of expertise, it was a bit woolly and disappointing. I
:43:33. > :43:36.don't think so, he has moved on to a different post with new
:43:37. > :43:41.responsibilities. He would have anticipated those questions. He gave
:43:42. > :43:48.his answer, and that an insert rail task force sent a report to
:43:49. > :43:53.Parliament in December, it was always due to report after the
:43:54. > :43:57.election but in terms of the Conservative Party, we have a good
:43:58. > :44:02.record in terms of investment in rail in the South West in the last
:44:03. > :44:07.seven years. Network Rail were asked to come up with a long-term solution
:44:08. > :44:12.to shore up Dawlish, they submitted that report in the autumn but the
:44:13. > :44:17.government can't still not come back and say, they don't have this
:44:18. > :44:23.problem with HS2, they cannot say they will crack on with this and pay
:44:24. > :44:27.for it, a cast iron guarantee. He's talking about things which have been
:44:28. > :44:34.done, patching up Dawlish and reminding us we will get new trains,
:44:35. > :44:39.which we have known for 12 months. It's part of a wider programme of
:44:40. > :44:44.act covertly. When you have something as dramatic as happened in
:44:45. > :44:49.2014, you have to go through a number of steps before you can get a
:44:50. > :44:54.new line up and running and what I think we will find is you have
:44:55. > :44:57.allowed number of local authorities, Andrew Leadbetter who was cabinet
:44:58. > :45:04.member for Exeter, a good friend of mine and he was chairing the
:45:05. > :45:11.peninsula rail task force and we share a great interest. He didn't
:45:12. > :45:19.seem happy with the lack of detail. -- he did seem happy. You have
:45:20. > :45:22.commitment from Devon and other local authorities to make sure there
:45:23. > :45:30.is an alternative route to the Dawlish line, the Dawlish
:45:31. > :45:34.alternative, that has been put forward and is being considered by
:45:35. > :45:38.the government but you will never get these things off the ground
:45:39. > :45:43.unless you get the economics right and this is an election where that
:45:44. > :45:50.is the main focus. I want to bring Jacqui in. The greens are very keen
:45:51. > :45:55.on rail links. Are the Conservatives a good job? Know, and even your
:45:56. > :46:01.piece before showed the new high-speed rail coming in, but it is
:46:02. > :46:05.only coming in as far as Exeter. The task force strategic plan which came
:46:06. > :46:10.out in November was very comprehensive and good and I
:46:11. > :46:15.understand it was agreed that announcements would be made in July,
:46:16. > :46:20.so the election has come before that but I think that is an important
:46:21. > :46:24.document which sets out what needs to come in, it looks that resilience
:46:25. > :46:29.in terms of whether we can anticipate, it was fantastic to see
:46:30. > :46:37.Dawlish restored so quirkily... Is it patching up? It was our patching
:46:38. > :46:41.up, I attended some meetings after that which showed how it is more
:46:42. > :46:47.resilient but they are looking at 470 million to restore that line and
:46:48. > :46:55.build that resilience in an investment that day. The strategic
:46:56. > :47:02.rail task force report also suggested 327 million but other
:47:03. > :47:05.measures and reflected on the value of tourism and everyone to get cars
:47:06. > :47:13.off the road and freight onto range... It is fundamental. I don't
:47:14. > :47:19.want to stray. Steve, you were laughing when I was introducing that
:47:20. > :47:25.piece but what would Ukip du? We always had a commitment to rail
:47:26. > :47:31.travel and rebuilding rail, and the rail infrastructure in the
:47:32. > :47:36.south-west is a disgrace. I think the way in which the Conservatives
:47:37. > :47:40.have treated this over the last two governments indicates how they see
:47:41. > :47:46.Devon and Cornwall, a place to go on holiday and retire to, and Cameron
:47:47. > :47:51.and Osborne, two years ago they came down and made a grandstanding speech
:47:52. > :47:56.about audience of pounds they thought would be attracted here and
:47:57. > :48:01.they got a lot of Tory MPs and there is no chance of that happening. I
:48:02. > :48:07.would like to make a bet that they could put a proportion of the
:48:08. > :48:12.overspend of HS2 into putting proper rail infrastructure into Devon and
:48:13. > :48:17.Cornwall. You said we haven't got a good record in terms of rail but we
:48:18. > :48:25.do you have a good record. You have a new station put in, the new court
:48:26. > :48:29.development in Exeter, plans for two more at stations, one on Marsh
:48:30. > :48:35.Barton to alleviate traffic, you have another one ends up pipeline
:48:36. > :48:39.which would serve Hill Barton. You have stations going in on local
:48:40. > :48:46.lines and a government which is committed... The peninsula task
:48:47. > :48:52.force tried to deliver its report underlying was washed away and it
:48:53. > :48:56.couldn't make it to London. The Conservative manifesto says on page
:48:57. > :49:02.26 that the government is committed to improving greater capacity on
:49:03. > :49:10.trying to get that ship. Get rid of trying to get that ship. Get rid of
:49:11. > :49:17.HS2 and you could solve this. I agree, reclaim that 59 billion back
:49:18. > :49:20.into public ownership. We have got to end. James, thank you.
:49:21. > :49:23.The gaping chasm between average wages and average house prices
:49:24. > :49:25.in the South West makes the national shortage of housing
:49:26. > :49:29.The parties are all grappling with the problem in their pre-election
:49:30. > :49:32.pledges but Tamsin Melville's been talking to somebody who thinks
:49:33. > :49:36.It's the question that's part of our national psyche,
:49:37. > :49:41.But for some it's the wrong question.
:49:42. > :49:46.If you go back over 30 years, half of Cornwall's rented housing stock,
:49:47. > :49:49.council housing stock, has disappeared under right to buy.
:49:50. > :49:52.That was never replaced, when those councils were sold off
:49:53. > :49:56.years ago under Margaret Thatcher, that money was not allowed to be
:49:57. > :50:00.used to build more housing and we're behind on building social housing
:50:01. > :50:07.Brothers Matt and Adam Ellis work at a Penzance jewellery factory.
:50:08. > :50:11.Born after the council house sell-off began,
:50:12. > :50:13.like many people their age, getting onto the housing ladder
:50:14. > :50:21.Adam is 27 and living with mum and dad while he saves up for a deposit.
:50:22. > :50:25.Matt is 29 and after years of saving, managed to buy a house
:50:26. > :50:29.with his partner last year, with a 5% deposit and
:50:30. > :50:36.I would like to move out and get my own place but it's
:50:37. > :50:40.finding a house you can afford, with the wages we're on
:50:41. > :50:46.Affordable homes aren't really affordable.
:50:47. > :50:50.They need to build them to buy, they need to be cheaper.
:50:51. > :50:54.What young couple will have ?20,000 to spend, unless they're lucky
:50:55. > :50:57.enough to have parents that will give them the money?
:50:58. > :51:01.I wasn't in that situation so I had to save.
:51:02. > :51:03.Those unachievable ?20,000 deposits have led to various schemes
:51:04. > :51:08.over the years like the current government offering of Help To Buy
:51:09. > :51:10.but there are those who say what's really needed is for councils
:51:11. > :51:14.to have the tools to build more homes like this.
:51:15. > :51:17.They might look like any other houses but these 16 properties
:51:18. > :51:22.near Truro are a rare example of recently built council housing,
:51:23. > :51:25.funded by the Labour government in 2010.
:51:26. > :51:30.A three-bedroom property here costs just under ?400 a month to rent.
:51:31. > :51:34.Since these were finished in 2011, there have been just 44 houses
:51:35. > :51:39.The man in charge of Cornwall's housing brief back then is clear
:51:40. > :51:45.The political parties should be concentrating
:51:46. > :51:48.on no more right to buy, social housing must remain social
:51:49. > :51:55.housing and rented for local people to live in and until that happens,
:51:56. > :52:03.councils will be very reluctant to pour tens of millions of pounds
:52:04. > :52:06.or hundreds of millions of pounds into local housing if they will be
:52:07. > :52:10.It's not an issue going unnoticed by the political parties
:52:11. > :52:11.in their manifestos, with the Conservatives promising
:52:12. > :52:15.a new generation of fixed term council houses to be sold off
:52:16. > :52:20.after 10-15 years with any proceeds reinvested into social housing.
:52:21. > :52:23.Labour says it would suspend the right to buy policy and build
:52:24. > :52:28.half a million council and housing association homes over five years.
:52:29. > :52:31.The Lib Dems have also said they would stop the right to buy
:52:32. > :52:37.Back at the factory, there's not much interest
:52:38. > :52:41.in the idea of renting and it's seen as a waste of money.
:52:42. > :52:45.Any bids to take the shine off those dreams of home ownership may
:52:46. > :52:52.Tamsin Melville, and to discuss this we're joined by Liberal Democrat
:52:53. > :53:00.candidate in St Austell and Newquay, Stephen Gilbert.
:53:01. > :53:08.Why are you due saying you would get rid of the right to buy for housing
:53:09. > :53:13.associations but not council house tenants? Why not do what Labour is
:53:14. > :53:17.doing and saying you will suspended across-the-board? We need action
:53:18. > :53:23.across-the-board to tackle the housing crisis, that means enabling
:53:24. > :53:29.councils to build new homes and making it easier for people to save
:53:30. > :53:33.to bite and is quite the Liberal Democrats introduced the rent to buy
:53:34. > :53:39.scheme in our manifesto which means if you are a social housing tenant,
:53:40. > :53:44.you will pay rent and at the end of 30 years you will secure your home,
:53:45. > :53:51.so you can't plan to use funds in a measured way. How do you facilitate
:53:52. > :53:57.council house building? It is difficult to get the finance to
:53:58. > :54:01.build? You take off the block on Cornwall Council borrowing which the
:54:02. > :54:07.Conservatives put in place. We saw huge amounts of council housing
:54:08. > :54:11.being sold off, which has led to the crisis we are in today and the
:54:12. > :54:15.Conservative crisis is not even giving councils the ability to
:54:16. > :54:22.borrow their way out and build the homes people need. That would make a
:54:23. > :54:28.huge difference in the ability... With that the red line for the Lib
:54:29. > :54:33.Dems and a coalition situation? We will not be in a coalition situation
:54:34. > :54:39.again, but we need to tackle the housing crisis. We saw how it is
:54:40. > :54:43.affecting people in Cornwall. It means action across-the-board,
:54:44. > :54:50.increased investment to make sure we provide homes for the future. Steve,
:54:51. > :54:57.on the issue of council housing, the Ukip have any sympathy? Yes, but
:54:58. > :55:01.what we will address in our manifesto on Wednesday is the issue
:55:02. > :55:07.of how you physically build a lot more houses, especially at the lower
:55:08. > :55:13.end of the market, the affordable end, in the current environment? The
:55:14. > :55:18.Farber reports said we don't have the resources to build them so we
:55:19. > :55:22.will address that because we need a new way to build houses and we will
:55:23. > :55:28.look at creating volume construction correctly. That's interesting
:55:29. > :55:31.because like the Green Party, looking back at previous housing
:55:32. > :55:37.statements, you have been concerned about logging on greenfield sites
:55:38. > :55:41.but if you are somewhere like that south-west, there is not much
:55:42. > :55:44.brownfield. I'm not sure that is true, there is a lot of brownfield
:55:45. > :55:47.and it is often bypassed because big and it is often bypassed because big
:55:48. > :55:53.developers Professor greenfield sites for their economics and
:55:54. > :55:56.another part of policy I am keen on is that we move away from the
:55:57. > :56:03.housing market being dominated by the developers because they don't
:56:04. > :56:10.behave like we want, they behave as their balance sheets demand. We need
:56:11. > :56:12.more local construction, smaller units and smaller amounts of
:56:13. > :56:18.development happening in places where needed rather than great big
:56:19. > :56:23.estates being built. You need to deliver the volume as well, we have
:56:24. > :56:29.heard this before but we need a lot of houses? There has to be a
:56:30. > :56:35.brownfield register and then we will look at ways we can use that
:56:36. > :56:40.quickly. Jacqui, we had a bit of agreement between you earlier on,
:56:41. > :56:44.looking at the Green Party in the past you were talking about bringing
:56:45. > :56:49.social housing stock into use and renovating existing stock, now you
:56:50. > :56:57.say you will build... 20,000 new homes a year. Has this represented a
:56:58. > :57:04.shift? Sorry, 200,000 in the next five years. There is a lot of
:57:05. > :57:08.days, it doesn't have to be the days, it doesn't have to be the
:57:09. > :57:14.green field full of houses design, we can have smaller developments and
:57:15. > :57:18.we need to look at ways to be innovative about timber framed
:57:19. > :57:23.housing, which can be high spec and make it more affordable for people
:57:24. > :57:27.on low incomes and as Green councillors, I have been involved in
:57:28. > :57:33.groups that looked at this, you can build a decent timber frame home for
:57:34. > :57:36.100 grand. A lot of local authorities are shedding land assets
:57:37. > :57:44.so they have land that could be converted. How many new homes does
:57:45. > :57:52.Cornwall need? We have to cater for the needs that there is. You need to
:57:53. > :57:57.be able to assess that. We had the Conservatives and Labour saying we
:57:58. > :58:02.have had to deal with this problem for too long, I am asking people in
:58:03. > :58:07.Saint Austell and new kit to elect someone who will champion their
:58:08. > :58:09.needs. We will leave it there. -- Newquay.
:58:10. > :58:12.Before we move on, a reminder that there's a full list of election
:58:13. > :58:15.candidates on the BBC website - and while nominations may have
:58:16. > :58:17.closed, there's still time for you to join the audience
:58:18. > :58:18.for the BBC Spotlight Election Debate.
:58:19. > :58:21.The programme will be on Tuesday 30th of May in Plymouth.
:58:22. > :58:23.If you'd like to request an application form
:58:24. > :58:30.Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 Seconds.
:58:31. > :58:33.The Conservatives finally confirm they plan to withdraw
:58:34. > :58:36.from the agreement which allows foreign fishing boats
:58:37. > :58:40.within 12 miles off the coast but they still won't say when.
:58:41. > :58:43.There is a clause in there that enables you to give two years'
:58:44. > :58:48.notice and we would want to do that very early in the next Parliament.
:58:49. > :58:51.GPs say money for patient care will be diverted to parking charges
:58:52. > :58:55.after Plymouth City Council increases the fee for
:58:56. > :59:00.For some of them a ?6,000 parking bill may be the straw that
:59:01. > :59:07.Calls for council-owned travellers' sites in Cornwall to be closed down
:59:08. > :59:12.after a series of fires and claims of anti-social behaviour.
:59:13. > :59:16.I'm living there and I find it's got very bad and it can't be sorted out
:59:17. > :59:22.And two weeks after the Conservatives became the largest
:59:23. > :59:26.party on Cornwall Council, Lib Dems and independents agree
:59:27. > :59:39.That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.
:59:40. > :59:41.cancelled. And rent to own is still our policy. Thank you very much, Tom
:59:42. > :59:48.Brake. Andrew, back to you. So, two and half weeks
:59:49. > :59:50.to go till polling day, let's take stock of the campaign
:59:51. > :59:53.so far and look ahead Sam, Isabel and Steve
:59:54. > :00:06.are with me again. Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing
:00:07. > :00:11.about the just about managing. Not the poorest of the poor, but not
:00:12. > :00:17.really affluent people, who are maybe OK but it's a bit of a
:00:18. > :00:21.struggle. What is in the manifesto for them? There is something about
:00:22. > :00:26.the high profile items in the manifesto. She said she wants to
:00:27. > :00:31.help those just above the poorest level. But if you look at things
:00:32. > :00:36.like the winter fuel allowance, which is going to be given only to
:00:37. > :00:40.the poorest. If you look at free school meals for infants, those for
:00:41. > :00:46.the poorest are going to be kept, but the rest will go. The social
:00:47. > :00:52.care plan, those who are renting or in properties worth up to ?90,000,
:00:53. > :00:58.they are going to be treated, but those in properties worth above
:00:59. > :01:03.that, 250,000, for example, will have to pay. Which leads to the
:01:04. > :01:09.question - what is being done for the just about managings? There is
:01:10. > :01:13.something, the personal allowance that David Cameron promised in 2015,
:01:14. > :01:19.that they are not making a big deal of that, because they cannot say by
:01:20. > :01:27.how much. So you are looking in tax rises on the just about managings.
:01:28. > :01:35.Where will the tax rises come from. We do not know, that there is the 40
:01:36. > :01:39.million pounds gap for the Tories to reach what they are pledging in
:01:40. > :01:46.their manifesto. We do not know how that is going to be made up, more
:01:47. > :01:49.tax, or more borrowing? So that is why the questions of the
:01:50. > :01:54.implications of removing the tax lock are so potentially difficult
:01:55. > :01:57.for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto gives figures for the cost of
:01:58. > :02:00.certain policies and where the revenue will come from. You can
:02:01. > :02:06.argue about the figures, but at least we have the figures. The Tory
:02:07. > :02:11.manifesto is opaque on these matters. That applies to both the
:02:12. > :02:14.manifestos. Looking at the Labour manifesto on the way here this
:02:15. > :02:19.morning, when you look at the section on care for the elderly,
:02:20. > :02:24.they simply say, there are various ways in which the money for this can
:02:25. > :02:29.be raised. They are specific on other things. They are, and we heard
:02:30. > :02:36.John McDonnell this morning being very on that, and saying there is
:02:37. > :02:43.not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I have only got to page 66. It is
:02:44. > :02:48.quite broad brush and they are very open to challenge. For example, on
:02:49. > :02:53.the detail of a number of their flagship things. There is no detail
:02:54. > :02:58.on their immigration policy. They reiterate the ambition, but not how
:02:59. > :03:05.they are going to do that, without a massive increase in resource for
:03:06. > :03:10.Borders officials. We are at a time where average wages are lagging
:03:11. > :03:15.behind prices. And in work benefits remain frozen. I would have thought
:03:16. > :03:20.that the just-about-managings are people who are in work but they need
:03:21. > :03:26.some in work benefits to make life tolerable and be able to pay bills.
:03:27. > :03:34.Doesn't she has to do more for them? Maybe, but this whole manifesto was
:03:35. > :03:40.her inner circle saying, right, this is our chance to express our... It
:03:41. > :03:46.partly reads like a sort of philosophical essay at times. About
:03:47. > :03:50.the challenges, individualism against collectivism. Some of it
:03:51. > :03:55.reads quite well and is quite interesting, but in terms of its
:03:56. > :04:00.detail, Labour would never get away with it. They wouldn't be allowed to
:04:01. > :04:05.be so vague about where taxes are going to rise. We know there are
:04:06. > :04:09.going to be tax rises after the election, but we don't know where
:04:10. > :04:17.they will be. 100%, there will be tax rises. We know that they wanted
:04:18. > :04:22.a tax rise in the last budget, but they couldn't get it through because
:04:23. > :04:27.of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do offer a lot more detail. People
:04:28. > :04:33.could disagree with it, but there is a lot more detail. More to get your
:04:34. > :04:39.teeth into. About capital gains tax and the rises for better owners and
:04:40. > :04:45.so on. The SNP manifesto comes out this week, and the Greens and Sinn
:04:46. > :04:48.Fein. We think Ukip as well. There are more manifestos to come. The Lib
:04:49. > :04:55.Dems have already brought theirs out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat
:04:56. > :05:02.campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem to be doing particular the well in
:05:03. > :05:05.the polls, or at the local elections a few weeks ago. The Liberal
:05:06. > :05:11.Democrats are trying to fish in quite a small pool for votes. They
:05:12. > :05:16.are looking to get votes from those remainers who want to reverse the
:05:17. > :05:20.result, in effect. Tim Farron is promising a second referendum on the
:05:21. > :05:28.deal at the end of the negotiation process. And that is a hard sell. So
:05:29. > :05:34.those voting for remain on June 23 are not low hanging fruit by any
:05:35. > :05:39.means? Polls suggesting that half of those want to reverse the result, so
:05:40. > :05:43.that is a feeling of about 20% on the Lib Dems, and they are getting
:05:44. > :05:48.slightly less than half at the moment, but there are not a huge
:05:49. > :05:56.amount of votes for them to get on that strategy. It doesn't feel like
:05:57. > :06:02.Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have promised enough. They are making a
:06:03. > :06:05.very serious case on cannabis use in a nightclub, but the optics of what
:06:06. > :06:09.they are discussing doesn't make them look like an anchor in a future
:06:10. > :06:14.coalition government that they would need to be. I wonder if we are
:06:15. > :06:18.seeing the re-emergence of the 2-party system? And it is not the
:06:19. > :06:22.same two parties. In Scotland, the dynamics of this election seemed to
:06:23. > :06:24.be the Nationalists against the Conservatives. In England, if you
:06:25. > :06:42.look at what has happened to be Ukip vote, and what Sam was saying about
:06:43. > :06:44.the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to get some traction, it is
:06:45. > :06:46.overwhelmingly Labour and the Conservatives. A different 2-party
:06:47. > :06:49.system from Scotland, but a 2-party system. There are a number of
:06:50. > :06:53.different election is going on in parallel. In Scotland it is about
:06:54. > :06:57.whether you are unionist or not. Here, we have the collapse of the
:06:58. > :07:04.Ukip vote, which looks as though it is being redistributed in the
:07:05. > :07:09.Tories' favour. This is a unique election, and will not necessarily
:07:10. > :07:13.set the trend for elections to come. In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the
:07:14. > :07:22.fact that the fixed term Parliament act is going to be scrapped. That
:07:23. > :07:25.got almost no coverage! It turned out to be academic anyway, that it
:07:26. > :07:29.tells you something about how Theresa May is feeling, and she
:07:30. > :07:34.wants the control to call an election whenever it suits her.
:07:35. > :07:43.Re-emergence of the 2-party system, for this election or beyond? For
:07:44. > :07:48.this election, yes, but it shows the sort of robust strength of parties
:07:49. > :07:52.and their fragility. In other words, the Lib Dems haven't really
:07:53. > :07:57.recovered from the losses in the last general election, and are
:07:58. > :08:01.therefore not really seen as a robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If
:08:02. > :08:06.they were, they might be doing better. The Labour Party hasn't
:08:07. > :08:10.recovered in Scotland, and yet, if you look at the basic divide in
:08:11. > :08:15.England and Scotland and you see two parties battling it out, it is very,
:08:16. > :08:20.very hard for the smaller parties to break through and last. Many appear
:08:21. > :08:27.briefly on the political stage and then disappear again. The election
:08:28. > :08:32.had the ostensible goal of Brexit, but we haven't heard much about it
:08:33. > :08:38.in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories want to get back onto that. David
:08:39. > :08:42.Davis sounding quite tough this morning, the Brexit minister, saying
:08:43. > :08:46.there is no chance we will talk about 100 billion. And we have to
:08:47. > :08:51.have power in the negotiations on the free trade deal or what ever it
:08:52. > :08:55.is. I think they are keen to get the subject of the manifesto at this
:08:56. > :09:00.point, because it has not started too well. There is an irony that
:09:01. > :09:05.Theresa May ostensibly called the election because she needed a
:09:06. > :09:08.stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations, and there was an
:09:09. > :09:11.opportunity for the Lib Dems, with their unique offer of being the
:09:12. > :09:17.party that is absolutely against the outcome of the referendum, and
:09:18. > :09:22.offering another chance. There hasn't been much airtime on that
:09:23. > :09:28.particular pledge, because instead, this election has segued into being
:09:29. > :09:33.all about leadership. Theresa May's leadership, and looking again at the
:09:34. > :09:41.Tory manifesto, I was struck that she was saying that this is my plan
:09:42. > :09:47.for the future, not ABBA plan. Even when talking about social care, he
:09:48. > :09:50.manages to work in a bit about Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris
:09:51. > :09:55.Johnson this morning, an interview he gave on another political
:09:56. > :10:00.programme this morning, it was extraordinarily sycophantic for him.
:10:01. > :10:06.Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There is a man trying to secure his job in
:10:07. > :10:12.the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? I think she will leave him. Better
:10:13. > :10:18.in the tent than out. What did you make of David Davis' remarks? He was
:10:19. > :10:24.basically saying, we will walk away from the negotiating table if the
:10:25. > :10:32.Europeans slam a bill for 100 billion euros. The point is that the
:10:33. > :10:37.Europeans will not slam a bill for 100 billion euros on the negotiating
:10:38. > :10:41.table. That is the gross figure. There are all sorts of things that
:10:42. > :10:46.need to be taken into account. I imagine they will ask for something
:10:47. > :10:54.around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. It looks that they are trying to
:10:55. > :10:57.make it look like a concession when they do make their demands in order
:10:58. > :11:02.to soften the ground for what is going to happen just two weeks after
:11:03. > :11:06.general election day. He makes a reasonable point about having
:11:07. > :11:09.parallel talks. What they want to do straightaway is deal with the bill,
:11:10. > :11:14.Northern Ireland and citizens rights. All of those things are very
:11:15. > :11:18.complicated and interlinked issues, which cannot be dealt with in
:11:19. > :11:24.isolation. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with parallel talks,
:11:25. > :11:29.just to work out where we are going with Northern Ireland and the
:11:30. > :11:34.border. Steve, you can't work out what the Northern Ireland border
:11:35. > :11:38.will be, and EU citizens' writes here, until you work out what our
:11:39. > :11:43.relationship with the EU in the future will be. Indeed. The British
:11:44. > :11:48.government is under pressure to deal quickly with the border issue in
:11:49. > :11:53.Ireland, but feel they can't do so because when you have a tariff free
:11:54. > :11:56.arrangement outcome, or an arrangement that is much more
:11:57. > :12:00.protectionist, and that will determine partly the nature of the
:12:01. > :12:04.border. You cannot have a quick agreement on that front without
:12:05. > :12:08.knowing the rest of the deal. I think the negotiation will be
:12:09. > :12:13.complex. I am certain they want a deal rather than none, because this
:12:14. > :12:18.is no deal thing is part of the negotiation at this early stage.
:12:19. > :12:22.Sounding tough in the general election campaign also works
:12:23. > :12:30.electorally. But after the election, it will be a tough negotiation,
:12:31. > :12:32.beginning with this cost of Brexit. My understanding is that the
:12:33. > :12:37.government feels it's got to make the Europeans think they will not do
:12:38. > :12:43.a deal in order to get a deal. They don't want no deal. Absolutely not.
:12:44. > :12:46.And I'm sure it plays into the election. I'm sure the rhetoric will
:12:47. > :12:50.change when the election is over. That's all for today,
:12:51. > :12:53.thank you to all my guests. The Daily Politics will be
:12:54. > :12:55.back on BBC Two at 12.00 And tomorrow evening I will be
:12:56. > :12:59.starting my series of interviews with the party leaders -
:13:00. > :13:01.first up is the Prime Minister, Theresa May,
:13:02. > :13:04.that's at 7pm on BBC One. And I'll be back here at the same
:13:05. > :13:07.time on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:08. > :13:56.it's the Sunday Politics. We've made great strides
:13:57. > :13:57.tackling HIV. Imagine if we could
:13:58. > :14:00.create a movement