:00:37. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:15.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:16. > :01:16.In the South West - the Conservative council leader
:01:17. > :01:19.who says Mrs May should stick to her manifesto on social care
:01:20. > :01:22.and not put a limit what we're asked to pay for it.
:01:23. > :01:26.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:27. > :01:33.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:34. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:37.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:38. > :01:41.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:42. > :01:49.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:50. > :01:52.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:53. > :01:59.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:00. > :02:02.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:03. > :02:07.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:08. > :02:09.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:10. > :02:15.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:16. > :02:17.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:18. > :02:23.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:24. > :02:27.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:28. > :02:30.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:33.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:34. > :02:37.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:38. > :02:46.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:47. > :02:48.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:49. > :02:51.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:52. > :02:53.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:54. > :02:56.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:57. > :03:04.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:05. > :03:10.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:11. > :03:13.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:14. > :03:16.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:17. > :03:19.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:20. > :03:21.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:22. > :03:23.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:24. > :03:27.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:28. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:42.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:43. > :03:48.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:49. > :03:51.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:52. > :03:57.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:58. > :04:02.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:03. > :04:09.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:10. > :04:14.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:15. > :04:17.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:18. > :04:22.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:23. > :04:26.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:27. > :04:36.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:37. > :04:40.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:41. > :04:46.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:47. > :04:49.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:50. > :04:54.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:55. > :04:58.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:59. > :05:02.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:03. > :05:05.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:06. > :05:12.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:13. > :05:17.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:18. > :05:23.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:24. > :05:29.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:30. > :05:33.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:34. > :05:37.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:38. > :05:41.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:42. > :05:47.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:48. > :05:51.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:52. > :05:55.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:56. > :05:59.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:00. > :06:04.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:05. > :06:07.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:08. > :06:13.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:14. > :06:16.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:17. > :06:22.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:23. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:31.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:32. > :06:35.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:36. > :06:39.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:40. > :06:47.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:48. > :06:51.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:52. > :06:55.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:56. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:06.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:07. > :07:10.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:11. > :07:14.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:15. > :07:23.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:24. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:32.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:33. > :07:37.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:38. > :07:41.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:42. > :07:46.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:47. > :07:53.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:58. > :08:03.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:04. > :08:06.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:07. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:16.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:17. > :08:21.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:22. > :08:24.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:25. > :08:28.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:29. > :08:32.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:33. > :08:36.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:37. > :08:40.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:41. > :08:44.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:45. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:53.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:54. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:02.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:03. > :09:05.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:06. > :09:11.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:12. > :09:15.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:16. > :09:20.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:21. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:28.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:29. > :09:32.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:33. > :09:37.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:38. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:52.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:53. > :09:59.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:00. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:15. > :10:19.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:20. > :10:23.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:24. > :10:28.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:29. > :10:33.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:34. > :10:36.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:37. > :10:40.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:41. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:48.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:49. > :10:54.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:55. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:57.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:58. > :10:59.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:00. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:06.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:07. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:29.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:30. > :11:36.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:37. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:43.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:44. > :11:45.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:46. > :11:46.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:47. > :11:56.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:57. > :12:00.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:01. > :12:03.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:04. > :12:06.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:07. > :12:12.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:13. > :12:19.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:20. > :12:22.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:23. > :12:26.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:27. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:40.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:41. > :12:45.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:46. > :12:54.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:55. > :12:58.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:59. > :13:02.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:03. > :13:06.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:07. > :13:10.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:11. > :13:16.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:17. > :13:20.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:21. > :13:27.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:28. > :13:32.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:33. > :13:35.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:36. > :13:40.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:41. > :13:46.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:47. > :13:50.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:51. > :13:57.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:58. > :14:00.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:01. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:16.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:17. > :14:22.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:23. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:30.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:31. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:39.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:40. > :14:44.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:45. > :14:50.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:51. > :14:55.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:56. > :14:59.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:00. > :15:04.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:05. > :15:08.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:09. > :15:13.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:14. > :15:17.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:18. > :15:22.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:23. > :15:31.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:32. > :15:34.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:35. > :15:40.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:41. > :15:44.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:45. > :15:49.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:50. > :15:52.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:53. > :15:59.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:00. > :16:02.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:03. > :16:05.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:06. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:12.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:13. > :16:18.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:19. > :16:21.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:22. > :16:26.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:27. > :16:32.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:33. > :16:37.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:38. > :16:46.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:47. > :16:52.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:53. > :16:57.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:58. > :17:00.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:01. > :17:04.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:05. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:14.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:15. > :17:20.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:21. > :17:24.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:25. > :17:27.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:28. > :17:35.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:36. > :17:39.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:40. > :17:43.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:44. > :17:48.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:49. > :17:52.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:53. > :17:57.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:58. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:14.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:15. > :18:16.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:17. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:31.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:32. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:50.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:51. > :18:54.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:55. > :19:01.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:02. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:23.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:24. > :19:27.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:28. > :19:30.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:31. > :19:34.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:35. > :19:38.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:39. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:44.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:45. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:50.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:51. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:56.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:57. > :20:09.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:10. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:18.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:19. > :20:22.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:23. > :20:28.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:29. > :20:33.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:34. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:42.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:43. > :20:45.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:46. > :20:52.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:53. > :20:57.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:58. > :21:01.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:02. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:10.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:11. > :21:15.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:16. > :21:21.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:22. > :21:28.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:29. > :21:30.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:31. > :21:36.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:37. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:49.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:50. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:56.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:57. > :22:01.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:02. > :22:05.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:06. > :22:12.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:13. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:19.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:20. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:26.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:27. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:42.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:43. > :22:47.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:48. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:03.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:04. > :23:07.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:08. > :23:10.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:11. > :23:16.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:17. > :23:20.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:21. > :23:28.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:29. > :23:36.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:37. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:47.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:48. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:58.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:59. > :24:01.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:02. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:19.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:20. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:31.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:32. > :24:34.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:35. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:44.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:45. > :24:49.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:50. > :24:54.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:55. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:09.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:10. > :25:13.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:14. > :25:16.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:17. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:28.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:29. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:39.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:40. > :25:43.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:44. > :25:53.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:54. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:09.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:10. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:47.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:48. > :26:51.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:52. > :26:57.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:58. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:16.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:17. > :27:20.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:21. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:34.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:35. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:49.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:50. > :27:53.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:54. > :27:57.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:58. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:07.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:08. > :28:11.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:12. > :28:15.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:16. > :28:22.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:23. > :28:33.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:34. > :28:35.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:36. > :28:43.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:44. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:51.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:52. > :28:52.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:53. > :28:54.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:55. > :28:57.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:58. > :28:58.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:59. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:04.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:05. > :29:09.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:10. > :29:27.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:28. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:33.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:34. > :29:39.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:40. > :29:44.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:45. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:58.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:59. > :30:05.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:06. > :30:09.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:10. > :30:17.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:18. > :30:21.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:22. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:29.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:30. > :30:34.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:35. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:59.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:00. > :31:02.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:03. > :31:07.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:08. > :31:12.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:13. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:18.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:19. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:29.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:30. > :31:34.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:35. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:58.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:59. > :32:06.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:07. > :32:15.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:16. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:37.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:38. > :32:41.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:42. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:51.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:55. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:05.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:06. > :33:10.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:11. > :33:17.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:18. > :33:26.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:27. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:37.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:38. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:48.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:49. > :33:50.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:51. > :33:56.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:57. > :34:02.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:03. > :34:07.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:08. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:15.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:16. > :34:17.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:18. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:25.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:26. > :34:28.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:29. > :34:33.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:34. > :34:38.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:39. > :34:43.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:44. > :34:46.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:47. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:56.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:57. > :35:00.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:01. > :35:04.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:05. > :35:08.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:09. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:15.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:16. > :35:21.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:22. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:37.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:38. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:46.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:47. > :35:50.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:51. > :35:56.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:57. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:18.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:19. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:27.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:28. > :36:33.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:34. > :36:36.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:37. > :36:44.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:45. > :36:48.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:49. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:05.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:06. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:17.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:18. > :37:20.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:21. > :37:27.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:28. > :37:33.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:34. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:42.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:43. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:57.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:58. > :38:01.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:02. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:22.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:23. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:30.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:31. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:51.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:52. > :38:52.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:53. > :38:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:55. > :38:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:58. > :39:11.Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:12. > :39:14.Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West...
:39:15. > :39:16.As Boris comes back to Cornwall, the Brexit questions
:39:17. > :39:32.And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Ukip candidate
:39:33. > :39:34.for Truro and Falmouth, Duncan Odgers, and Labour candidate
:39:35. > :39:36.Sue Dann, who's standing in Plymouth Moor View.
:39:37. > :39:40.Let's start with Jeremy Corbyn's speech making a link
:39:41. > :39:42.between Britain's military action abroad and the risk
:39:43. > :39:50.The Labour leader's comments prompted a strong response
:39:51. > :39:55.from local Tory candidate and former army officer Johnny Mercer.
:39:56. > :39:59.I just do not accept that doing nothing is always the answer.
:40:00. > :40:01.I think Jeremy Corbyn's speech today, it belies
:40:02. > :40:07.These terrorists, they use that narrative after they have done
:40:08. > :40:09.something, you know, things like the World Trade Center,
:40:10. > :40:15.It's just making things up to get elected, and the fact that this guy
:40:16. > :40:20.could be Prime Minister in two weeks is just extraordinary.
:40:21. > :40:29.Strong words. Do you stand by your leader's comments? I do, because
:40:30. > :40:35.when you listen to what Jeremy Corbyn said, he said that our
:40:36. > :40:39.foreign policy is part of a narrative, so when we go into other
:40:40. > :40:48.countries like Iraq or Afghanistan or what is happening in Syria or
:40:49. > :40:51.Libya, there is a void, a space the terrorists are getting into, and
:40:52. > :40:57.what we need to do is make sure that the close that, and we have to do
:40:58. > :40:59.that in many ways. So he is not saying you should do nothing? Now,
:41:00. > :41:05.he is not saying that, he absolutely he is not saying that, he absolutely
:41:06. > :41:09.acknowledges we have a foreign policy where we have to support can
:41:10. > :41:10.do things which support other countries in their fight against
:41:11. > :41:19.terror. Meanwhile at the Ukip manifesto
:41:20. > :41:21.launch a question on the topic from the BBC's Laura Kuennsberg drew
:41:22. > :41:24.outbursts from the cloud including south west Ukip
:41:25. > :41:26.MEP William Dartmouth. It sounds like you're near as dammit
:41:27. > :41:29.blaming the Prime Minister for this attack and the circumstances that
:41:30. > :41:50.led to it. This kind of heckling pleasing to
:41:51. > :41:58.the hands of opposing parties, it sets you up as roadie. That is the
:41:59. > :42:02.wrong word, I think it proves with Ukip, the passionate politics we
:42:03. > :42:08.believe in. See you think it is acceptable? I think it was a little
:42:09. > :42:13.rude to interrupt, but I believe the passions can overcome people on a
:42:14. > :42:17.subject. SWAT about this question Laura was suggesting, that Paul
:42:18. > :42:26.Nuttall was effectively blaming Theresa May for the attack, and they
:42:27. > :42:31.consequence leading up to it? I do not think he was blaming her, that
:42:32. > :42:33.is a slant on the question, he was talking about the policies on
:42:34. > :42:39.various governments that have not protected people effectively.
:42:40. > :42:42.One of the South West's Conservative council leaders has criticised his
:42:43. > :42:45.party's apparent U-turn on whether to limit what we're each
:42:46. > :42:48.Theresa May now says she'd consult on a cap.
:42:49. > :42:50.But the leader of Teignbridge District Council says
:42:51. > :42:52.the Conservative manifesto suggestion of allowing the state
:42:53. > :42:55.to take everything but our last ?100,000 would be a fair way
:42:56. > :42:57.to spread the cost of care between generations.
:42:58. > :43:05.At St Andrews House care home in Ashburton, much talk
:43:06. > :43:09.about Mrs May's position on social care.
:43:10. > :43:14.I think she is hard, Theresa May, you know...
:43:15. > :43:17.Well, I think you've got to know a lot about politics
:43:18. > :43:21.I mean, a lot of people talk as if they understand it,
:43:22. > :43:34.He is also a Conservative councillor.
:43:35. > :43:39.But it's not just his residents who don't understand how much
:43:40. > :43:42.a Conservative government would charge them for their care.
:43:43. > :43:49.I mean, there is an argument to say that a cap is a better thing.
:43:50. > :43:51.Or do we go for ?100,000 in the reverse, really?
:43:52. > :43:57.So you either keep your 100,000 or it is capped at 100,000.
:43:58. > :43:59.This week, Theresa May said there could be a cap
:44:00. > :44:02.There would be a consultation, she said.
:44:03. > :44:04.And that consultation will include an absolute limit
:44:05. > :44:08.on the amount people have to pay for their care costs.
:44:09. > :44:11.But no mention of a cap in the Conservative manifesto,
:44:12. > :44:19.which said we would be charged up to our last ?100,000.
:44:20. > :44:22.Secretary of State, can we just ask you very quickly
:44:23. > :44:25.When did Theresa May change her mind?
:44:26. > :44:28.The way that modern care homes are trying to support people living
:44:29. > :44:33.Jeremy Christophers supported the manifesto policy
:44:34. > :44:35.and was disappointed when his leader appeared to water it down.
:44:36. > :44:39.If it were me, I would probably have stuck to it and come up
:44:40. > :44:44.with reasoned arguments and evidence as to why this works better
:44:45. > :44:47.for people than the previous scheme which only delivered ?23,000
:44:48. > :44:53.This delivers ?100,000, but for whatever reason it is not
:44:54. > :44:55.a comfortable conversation with the public at this time.
:44:56. > :45:01.But it will have to be held sometime.
:45:02. > :45:04.The Lib Dems are promising a dedicated care tax and a
:45:05. > :45:09.Labour is offering a national care service with an extra 8 billion
:45:10. > :45:11.for social care over the next five years.
:45:12. > :45:16.Ukip pledges an extra 2 billion for social care.
:45:17. > :45:19.The residents here hope the debate about how much they have to pay
:45:20. > :45:26.And to discuss this we're joined by the Conservative Candidate
:45:27. > :45:38.Welcome. It is confusing people this issue. Can you clean it up, will
:45:39. > :45:42.there be a cap on what people have too pay on social care if the Tories
:45:43. > :45:46.wind? That is going to be a consultation on a cap. What is
:45:47. > :45:51.important to remember is the policy is about preserving ?100,000 of
:45:52. > :45:57.people's assets rather than 23,000 at the moment. And making sure that
:45:58. > :46:01.is an easier decision about whether to move into residential care or
:46:02. > :46:06.not. That will not know necessarily lead to the necessity of selling a
:46:07. > :46:09.home. Do you think there should be a cap? We need to look at it and I
:46:10. > :46:13.think it should be a progressive system. I think it should be capped
:46:14. > :46:17.and I think it will be, but it depends on how we want to do that.
:46:18. > :46:24.We have to make sure there is bitterness between the generations,
:46:25. > :46:27.but also fairness for those who have scrimped and saved and put all their
:46:28. > :46:33.money into a House throughout their lives. How can you have a Papin the
:46:34. > :46:41.?100,000 limit? It isn't the same thing. ?100,000 is the preservation
:46:42. > :46:46.of assets. A cap is an entirely separate thing. SWAT is the
:46:47. > :46:50.Conservative Party's policy on this? To have a consultation to look at
:46:51. > :46:55.all the aspects of it, to see you how to make it as progressive as we
:46:56. > :47:01.can, as they are as we can make it. Has that cleared it up for you? Not
:47:02. > :47:04.really. This is a U-turn and policy, this is a crisis created by the
:47:05. > :47:09.Conservatives over the last few years. ?4.6 billion has been taken
:47:10. > :47:15.out of the social care budget, and this has been dropped in on two
:47:16. > :47:19.local councils who have not been able to fund social care properly.
:47:20. > :47:22.Celebrities pledging to spend a billion extra on social care over
:47:23. > :47:27.the next five years. How do you pay for that? And an extra billion into
:47:28. > :47:34.the first year as well. But being able to find it is a different
:47:35. > :47:38.thing. We have been clear in how we have costed the manifesto, the
:47:39. > :47:43.day-to-day funding of things we have to do have been costed by increased
:47:44. > :47:47.taxes elsewhere. We have to pay for the national social care service
:47:48. > :47:53.that looks after our elderly as we get older. And it cost to it.
:47:54. > :48:06.Duncan, Ukip pledging to spend 2 billion extra on social care. Is
:48:07. > :48:10.that enough? Labour said 2 billion, when you match it up with funding,
:48:11. > :48:15.will make a great deal to social care. We have already listen to the
:48:16. > :48:18.Conservatives who say that consultation means once we are
:48:19. > :48:22.elected we will do what we like anyway. But she has tried to be more
:48:23. > :48:32.honest than put up some ideas upfront. Green butterfat honesty on
:48:33. > :48:41.a complete U-turn to save bolts? -- but is that honesty? She is
:48:42. > :48:46.absolutely clear that we have to address this issue, the sort of
:48:47. > :48:51.money we have been hearing about is not going to be enough from the
:48:52. > :49:00.Labour point of view. That will just pay for raising the minimum wage.
:49:01. > :49:11.Aside from that, if the Tories election campaign turning into a
:49:12. > :49:16.shambles? A newspaper said... Should you have gone off message? Theresa
:49:17. > :49:22.May is the only person who can be trusted to pursue a good and
:49:23. > :49:27.constructive Brexit process. Was at a mistake, then, to talk about fox
:49:28. > :49:30.hunting and social care issues? Social care issues underfunding
:49:31. > :49:34.depend on as having a strong economy, and we will only get there
:49:35. > :49:43.if we have Theresa May at the negotiating table. Is that something
:49:44. > :49:50.you're hearing, that Brexit is the key issue? No, in Plymouth the key
:49:51. > :49:55.issue is things that affects peoples lives. I talk more about the NHS,
:49:56. > :50:00.funding for schools, more about making sure that people do not have
:50:01. > :50:02.to go to food banks and they are getting paid a proper living wage,
:50:03. > :50:08.which the Labour Party will deliver on, I talk about winter fuel
:50:09. > :50:12.allowance, why we're not looking after pensions. Those are the issues
:50:13. > :50:17.that are really affecting lives on the doorstep. On the U-turn, we need
:50:18. > :50:22.to have a strong and stable leader, and it seems that whenever Theresa
:50:23. > :50:25.May is put under any pressure about a policy that is going to be
:50:26. > :50:30.difficult to deliver, she changes her mind. Is this the strong
:50:31. > :50:35.negotiating skills we will need for the Brexit table? Is this not a
:50:36. > :50:39.strong and stable leader? I know Theresa May well, and she is a
:50:40. > :50:49.careful and deliberate politician. She will absolutely fight for us in
:50:50. > :50:52.the negotiations. Thank you very much for joining us.
:50:53. > :50:54.The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was electioneering
:50:55. > :50:59.It was the first time he'd been to the county since his visit
:51:00. > :51:02.in the Brexit battlebus, and the people of St Ives were keen
:51:03. > :51:05.to ask him what money Cornwall can hope for after we leave.
:51:06. > :51:09.By 2020, Cornwall will have received more than ?1.3 billion
:51:10. > :51:16.Beneficiaries have included the Eden Project, a new university
:51:17. > :51:24.for the county, and the roll-out of superfast broadband.
:51:25. > :51:27.One of the next big projects is the dualling of one of the last
:51:28. > :51:30.long stretches of single carriageway on Cornwall's Main
:51:31. > :51:36.After last year's Brexit vote, the government moved reasonably
:51:37. > :51:38.quickly to guarantee this latest tranche of funding until 2020.
:51:39. > :51:40.What we're doing here is guaranteeing that projects that
:51:41. > :51:43.have already been signed or that are going to be signed
:51:44. > :51:45.over the coming months, even if the payment of those funds
:51:46. > :51:48.runs on beyond the time we leave the EU, will be guaranteed
:51:49. > :51:55.by the British Government to the recipients.
:51:56. > :51:57.Beyond 2020, if Cornwall was still in the EU,
:51:58. > :52:00.it would almost certainly qualify for another large chunk of cash.
:52:01. > :52:01.When the Prime Minister visited Cornwall earlier
:52:02. > :52:04.in the election campaign, I asked her if the Conservatives
:52:05. > :52:13.would replace that with the UK Government money.
:52:14. > :52:16.It is not just about the issue of funding, it is about our modern
:52:17. > :52:19.It's about ensuring we are promoting and encouraging the growth
:52:20. > :52:22.of the economy across the whole of the United Kingdom,
:52:23. > :52:27.This week Foreign Secretary and Brexit pin-up Boris Johnson
:52:28. > :52:42.You don't want to leave the European Union.
:52:43. > :52:44.You're doing everything you possibly can to screw it up.
:52:45. > :52:47.Do you really think Theresa May, who does U-turn after U-turn,
:52:48. > :52:50.who has actually done one again today, is going to do
:52:51. > :52:56.Mr Johnson was at least happy to talk to the BBC,
:52:57. > :53:01.but not necessarily to clarify the funding issue.
:53:02. > :53:03.Half the money that comes back under our control is currently
:53:04. > :53:06.already spent in the UK, that will continue to be spent.
:53:07. > :53:08.There will be another ?10 billion coming back,
:53:09. > :53:11.that will be additional cash that we can spend on priorities such
:53:12. > :53:19.as the NHS and Cornwall and all sorts of things.
:53:20. > :53:23.All being well, the EU funded work to dual the A30 from Carl
:53:24. > :53:26.and crossed to Chadlington will begin in 2019 - 2020.
:53:27. > :53:28.Precisely the time at which the road ahead for similar projects
:53:29. > :53:39.And to discuss this we're joined by the Lib Dem candidate
:53:40. > :53:42.in Truro and Falmouth, Rob Nolan.
:53:43. > :53:48.Welcome to the programme. How much of a problem is it for the Lib Dems
:53:49. > :53:53.that Cornwall voted to leave, yet you're asking for a second
:53:54. > :54:03.referendum? Brexit has the potential to be an economic disaster for
:54:04. > :54:12.Cornwall. We receive million pounds a year -- ?100 million a year from
:54:13. > :54:16.the EU to fund the University, universities, to get us into an
:54:17. > :54:20.exciting IT economy. Do you think if there was a second referendum,
:54:21. > :54:24.Cornwall may vote differently? Well we need to know what the deal is. We
:54:25. > :54:29.need to know we will keep the funding beyond 2020, and what the
:54:30. > :54:33.deal is. There are rumours that Mrs May might be prepared to give away
:54:34. > :54:36.fishing rights for banking fishing rights for banking
:54:37. > :54:41.concessions. Our fishermen voted to get rid of their water. They will be
:54:42. > :54:46.feeling betrayed everything she gives it away to help bankers in
:54:47. > :54:53.London. Duncan, Brexit could be a disaster for Cornwall and its
:54:54. > :54:58.fishermen. It could be, which is why Ukip are holding them to account.
:54:59. > :55:05.Theresa May has only promised goal to 12 miles, and she has not said
:55:06. > :55:14.she will take the full 200 miles back. -- has only promised to go to
:55:15. > :55:21.12 miles. What will happen after 2020, when there is no more European
:55:22. > :55:23.funding? As far as Ukip is concerned, the money that went to
:55:24. > :55:29.Europe and was given back to us that we did not have a choice to choose,
:55:30. > :55:34.the money will be available to put back into Cornwall, which is down to
:55:35. > :55:38.the elected representatives in London to ensure that happened. Does
:55:39. > :55:41.that sound right to you? We do not hold a lot of faith in our elected
:55:42. > :55:45.representatives in London. We need the funding and have been told we
:55:46. > :55:48.will come back to you until you what we have negotiated. We want a second
:55:49. > :55:53.referendum on the deal. I do not trust Theresa May to settle this. I
:55:54. > :55:56.do not trust parliament, who seem to do not trust parliament, who seem to
:55:57. > :56:00.falling into line. We need the falling into line. We need the
:56:01. > :56:07.good deal, paid enough, they will good deal, paid enough, they will
:56:08. > :56:12.vote to continue. Ukip is the best party to scrutinise that? I do not
:56:13. > :56:18.trust Ukip at all. So why did you approach Ukip to stand as a
:56:19. > :56:25.candidate in 2015? I did not, that is all I. What would Labour do for
:56:26. > :56:33.Cornwall for parts who currently receive a European funding? We need
:56:34. > :56:38.to have a vision of what a strong Brexit means, we need to make sure
:56:39. > :56:43.we protect jobs, that we have prosperity, that our businesses in
:56:44. > :56:47.to have strong economy and they can to have strong economy and they can
:56:48. > :56:53.invest into companies now. But can you guarantee money passed 2020? Is
:56:54. > :56:56.Cornwall going to lose out? I do not have a magic wand. I look at the
:56:57. > :57:03.money going into Cornwall from Europe and it is a big sum of money.
:57:04. > :57:06.So we need to know from the government what is going to happen,
:57:07. > :57:10.and I totally agree with you about the funding coming out of Cornwall
:57:11. > :57:12.and other areas and how it is going to be replaced, and we have not got
:57:13. > :57:15.that vision, but what we need to that vision, but what we need to
:57:16. > :57:21.know is how the government will keep the jobs, prosperity and the economy
:57:22. > :57:28.growing in the south-west because it is dependent on funding. The
:57:29. > :57:36.government talks about a value for money test. Has the money that came
:57:37. > :57:40.in from Europe been wasted? We have the highest number of start-up
:57:41. > :57:43.businesses in the UK, businesses coming along. I went to the Cornish
:57:44. > :57:48.business there, and they described the area as a potential silicon
:57:49. > :57:52.valley. There is real potential to grow the economy down there. We need
:57:53. > :57:57.that money, and when the government says there are going to test it,
:57:58. > :58:02.really the mean cuts. That is all they ever do to Cornwall, they take
:58:03. > :58:10.away 25 million out of schools, underfund our NHS, and value for
:58:11. > :58:16.money means cuts. But Cornwall voted to leave. Did they bite the hand
:58:17. > :58:20.that feeds you? The issue here is we do not have an MEP. We do not have a
:58:21. > :58:24.Cornish MEP that could have been explaining the benefits of being in
:58:25. > :58:32.the EU. We have a healthy scepticism of central government, and Russell
:58:33. > :58:37.seems a long way away. Is it a hard sale to get those who voted to leave
:58:38. > :58:48.to agree to a second referendum? I think they would be happy to get a
:58:49. > :58:56.second chance on the deal? Bid -- a second chance at the deal. We have
:58:57. > :59:03.voted to get out, let us get out. We never voted for the second
:59:04. > :59:11.referendum. We need to discuss the deal, get discussing it. In Falmouth
:59:12. > :59:17.are worrying about their funding being cut. -- a school in Falmouth.
:59:18. > :59:29.of general election candidates on the BBC website.
:59:30. > :59:35.We also have an election special here on BBC One on Tuesday night.
:59:36. > :59:46.Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:59:47. > :59:47.Cornwall Council elects Lib Dem Adam Painter
:59:48. > :59:49.as its new leader in partnership with the independence.
:59:50. > :59:53.Cornwall stands to lose more than any other area through Brexit,
:59:54. > :59:58.so it is really important that we stand together.
:59:59. > :00:00.Armed police will patrol the streets of the Southwest for first time.
:00:01. > :00:02.It's a response to the Manchester attack.
:00:03. > :00:13.It is normal patrolling, but it is now overtly
:00:14. > :00:19.But I would ask the public to be reassured and not put off by it.
:00:20. > :00:21.Unpaid council tax has lost councils in the south-west more
:00:22. > :00:23.than ?150 million over the last five years.
:00:24. > :00:26.Why don't they pay if they are working?
:00:27. > :00:29.Councils are having real problems and they are having to put council
:00:30. > :00:32.tax up to much higher levels than they used to.
:00:33. > :00:34.And the region's Headteachers are sending out thousands of letters
:00:35. > :00:36.calling on parents to challenge election candidates
:00:37. > :00:39.It just encourages you to go and ask the right questions
:00:40. > :00:50.Let us look at the issue of school funding. Our headteachers right to
:00:51. > :00:53.politicise this issue? Do you think they were right to send out
:00:54. > :00:56.thousands of letters to ask parents to get in touch with the election
:00:57. > :01:04.candidate and ask questions on the doorstep? Yes, I do. The last Labour
:01:05. > :01:08.government made education the core of its manifesto, and put a lot of
:01:09. > :01:12.money into schools. I am a local school governor, and we had to make
:01:13. > :01:15.redundancies at the beginning of the year because of school funding
:01:16. > :01:21.crisis. And so yes, it is political, but it is our children's future. We
:01:22. > :01:25.should be able to stand up and say why we're cutting money from
:01:26. > :01:30.schools, and we would not do that. Duncan, does that sound like Ukip's
:01:31. > :01:34.idea? Investment in schools is important. How can you cut
:01:35. > :01:40.immigration if you're not educating your own people to provide the
:01:41. > :01:43.skills we need for the future? We're cutting food for primary school
:01:44. > :01:49.children, which helps their education. 6.9 p for breakfast is
:01:50. > :01:54.not enough. We have to invest in the children because they are the
:01:55. > :01:59.future, and skills is what we need. We have run out of ten. -- run out
:02:00. > :02:02.of re-elected. Is the only choice for
:02:03. > :02:17.strong and stable leadership. Now, after the Manchester attack,
:02:18. > :02:21.will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from
:02:22. > :02:28.what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front
:02:29. > :02:33.of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election
:02:34. > :02:37.if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is
:02:38. > :02:43.inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said
:02:44. > :02:48.before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,
:02:49. > :02:53.unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about
:02:54. > :02:59.security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.
:03:00. > :03:02.Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't
:03:03. > :03:08.impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign
:03:09. > :03:14.policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.
:03:15. > :03:22.Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter
:03:23. > :03:26.nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative
:03:27. > :03:30.party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be
:03:31. > :03:35.safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour
:03:36. > :03:45.or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist
:03:46. > :03:49.ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.
:03:50. > :03:53.It also points to a broader argument, one we were having
:03:54. > :03:59.earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of
:04:00. > :04:05.extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the
:04:06. > :04:09.sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this
:04:10. > :04:17.being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too
:04:18. > :04:21.cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election
:04:22. > :04:28.campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,
:04:29. > :04:32.policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political
:04:33. > :04:39.divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a
:04:40. > :04:46.tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election
:04:47. > :04:53.debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call
:04:54. > :04:57.it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide
:04:58. > :05:05.neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think
:05:06. > :05:11.the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is
:05:12. > :05:16.an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to
:05:17. > :05:21.talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of
:05:22. > :05:25.argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the
:05:26. > :05:29.politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no
:05:30. > :05:35.wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect
:05:36. > :05:42.our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It
:05:43. > :05:47.may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want
:05:48. > :05:53.to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right
:05:54. > :05:56.now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have
:05:57. > :06:01.got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually
:06:02. > :06:04.tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it
:06:05. > :06:12.earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.
:06:13. > :06:18.Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist
:06:19. > :06:23.legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used
:06:24. > :06:26.enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in
:06:27. > :06:33.an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this
:06:34. > :06:35.terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil
:06:36. > :06:42.liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,
:06:43. > :06:49.it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't
:06:50. > :06:52.actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,
:06:53. > :06:56.but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different
:06:57. > :07:00.argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.
:07:01. > :07:05.That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to
:07:06. > :07:09.dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign
:07:10. > :07:13.relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social
:07:14. > :07:20.care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris
:07:21. > :07:24.Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa
:07:25. > :07:29.May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have
:07:30. > :07:32.seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly
:07:33. > :07:37.the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and
:07:38. > :07:41.again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and
:07:42. > :07:44.actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few
:07:45. > :07:49.days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries
:07:50. > :07:55.to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership
:07:56. > :08:03.and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I
:08:04. > :08:10.think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to
:08:11. > :08:14.broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't
:08:15. > :08:22.think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a
:08:23. > :08:26.small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with
:08:27. > :08:33.an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million
:08:34. > :08:39.people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There
:08:40. > :08:44.is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on
:08:45. > :08:48.from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they
:08:49. > :08:54.are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.
:08:55. > :08:59.Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from
:09:00. > :09:04.security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a
:09:05. > :09:07.gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.
:09:08. > :09:13.But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone
:09:14. > :09:19.according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an
:09:20. > :09:23.election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.
:09:24. > :09:28.Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who
:09:29. > :09:33.will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott
:09:34. > :09:38.against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is
:09:39. > :09:42.something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in
:09:43. > :09:46.the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a
:09:47. > :09:50.graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That
:09:51. > :09:54.is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant
:09:55. > :09:59.that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before
:10:00. > :10:04.Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those
:10:05. > :10:07.groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents
:10:08. > :10:12.rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the
:10:13. > :10:18.companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to
:10:19. > :10:22.build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the
:10:23. > :10:28.time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same
:10:29. > :10:32.views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the
:10:33. > :10:39.views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the
:10:40. > :10:44.IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to
:10:45. > :10:49.Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years
:10:50. > :10:54.but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.
:10:55. > :10:58.Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two
:10:59. > :11:03.of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?
:11:04. > :11:09.On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like
:11:10. > :11:14.to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or
:11:15. > :11:19.supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a
:11:20. > :11:25.radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my
:11:26. > :11:31.regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute
:11:32. > :11:42.disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:43. > :11:47.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:48. > :11:54.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:55. > :12:04.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:05. > :12:09.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:10. > :12:13.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:14. > :12:17.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:18. > :12:21.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:22. > :12:24.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:25. > :12:33.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:34. > :12:42.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:43. > :12:46.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:47. > :12:50.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:51. > :12:54.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:55. > :12:58.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:12:59. > :13:03.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:04. > :13:06.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:07. > :13:14.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:15. > :13:21.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:22. > :13:27.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:28. > :13:31.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:32. > :13:33.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:34. > :14:08.of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls
:14:09. > :14:11.to choose who represents them the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins
:14:12. > :14:21.me for the Andrew Neil Interviews. One minute to get the
:14:22. > :14:22.food on the plate. ..team them up with
:14:23. > :14:27.a Michelin starred chef, putting their reputation
:14:28. > :14:28.on the line. ..which team will have the
:14:29. > :14:36.recipe for success? One minute to get the
:14:37. > :14:39.food on the plate.