05/11/2017

0:00:36 > 0:00:38Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:38 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:43 > 0:00:44of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:44 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:50Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:50 > 0:00:57police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:00 > 0:01:02With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:02 > 0:01:05can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:05 > 0:01:07to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:07 > 0:01:11the entire political class?

0:01:11 > 0:01:17We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:17 > 0:01:27And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:27In have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:27In the have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:27In the south-west, have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:27 > 0:01:28In the south-west, the have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:28 > 0:01:28In the south-west, the more have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:28 > 0:01:30In the south-west, the more expensive the area, the more homes

0:01:44 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:48to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:48 > 0:01:50and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:50 > 0:01:53a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:53 > 0:01:54gunpowder and treason.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:56 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:10in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:10 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:22office in 2008.

0:02:22 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:35and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:35 > 0:02:37Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:37 > 0:02:39over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:39 > 0:02:45he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:45 > 0:02:47Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:47 > 0:02:54misconduct allegations.

0:02:54 > 0:02:57This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:57 > 0:02:59on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:02:59 > 0:03:07Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:07 > 0:03:10And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:10 > 0:03:13with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:13 > 0:03:14of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:14 > 0:03:16Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:16 > 0:03:19she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:19 > 0:03:22against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:22 > 0:03:28Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:28 > 0:03:33terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:33 > 0:03:35that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:35 > 0:03:44better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:44 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:53can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:53 > 0:03:57Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:57 > 0:04:04morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:04 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:12is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:12 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:22actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:22 > 0:04:25deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:25 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:40that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:40 > 0:04:46bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:46 > 0:04:49political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:49 > 0:04:53allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:53 > 0:04:58being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:58 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:10strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:10 > 0:05:14clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:14 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:22whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:22 > 0:05:26relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:26 > 0:05:32rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:32 > 0:05:35of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:35 > 0:05:41moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:41 > 0:05:44bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:44 > 0:05:48do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:48 > 0:05:52not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:52 > 0:05:58computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:58 > 0:06:02would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:02 > 0:06:14be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:14 > 0:06:19Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:19 > 0:06:25It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:25 > 0:06:29without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:29 > 0:06:34scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:34 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:45suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:45 > 0:06:48may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:48 > 0:06:51alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:51 > 0:06:55in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:55 > 0:06:58meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:58 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:09and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:09 > 0:07:12every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:12 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:21she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:21 > 0:07:24support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:24 > 0:07:28Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:28 > 0:07:31inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:31 > 0:07:37the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:37 > 0:07:39the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:39 > 0:07:4310,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:43 > 0:07:47work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:47 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:02actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:02 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:09the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:09 > 0:08:15it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:15 > 0:08:18sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:18 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:27between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:27 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:37at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:37 > 0:08:42the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:42 > 0:08:47Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:47 > 0:08:49they might be regulated.

0:08:49 > 0:08:51Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:51 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:56to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:56 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:00We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:00 > 0:09:02she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:02 > 0:09:05Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:05 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:12but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:12 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:25should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:25 > 0:09:31has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:31 > 0:09:36is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:36 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:43properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:43 > 0:09:48that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:48 > 0:09:54investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:54 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:02important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:02 > 0:10:05test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:05 > 0:10:09swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:09 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:17things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:17 > 0:10:21range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:21 > 0:10:25Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:25 > 0:10:31environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:31 > 0:10:33or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:33 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:40transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:40 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:50Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:50 > 0:10:55the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:55 > 0:11:03can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:03 > 0:11:07House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:07 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:22that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:22 > 0:11:26Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:26 > 0:11:30year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:30 > 0:11:34of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:34 > 0:11:38it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:38 > 0:11:44experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:44 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:56as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:56 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:06authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:06 > 0:12:14people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:14 > 0:12:17misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:17 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:26in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:26 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:36hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:36 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:46of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:46 > 0:12:50the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:50 > 0:12:53urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:53 > 0:12:57have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:57 > 0:13:01do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:01 > 0:13:04clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:04 > 0:13:10right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:10 > 0:13:15and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:15 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:24sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:24 > 0:13:28companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:28 > 0:13:33use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:33 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:48politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:48 > 0:13:51companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:51 > 0:13:55this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:55 > 0:13:59with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:13:59 > 0:14:04step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:04 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:26make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:26 > 0:14:31the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:31 > 0:14:35children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:35 > 0:14:41of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:41 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:47undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:47 > 0:14:50justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:50 > 0:14:55support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:55 > 0:14:58prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:58 > 0:15:03need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:03 > 0:15:05us today.

0:15:05 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:14of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:14 > 0:15:16And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:16 > 0:15:18when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:18 > 0:15:20newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:20 > 0:15:25Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:25 > 0:15:27It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:27 > 0:15:30of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:30 > 0:15:32is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:32 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:37of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:37 > 0:15:40greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:40 > 0:15:46to work with them.

0:15:46 > 0:15:49Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:49 > 0:15:51at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:51 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:57is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:57 > 0:15:58over the next ten years.

0:15:58 > 0:16:00The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:00 > 0:16:03which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:03 > 0:16:04while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:04 > 0:16:09of manpower and equipment.

0:16:09 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:14what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:14 > 0:16:16and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:16 > 0:16:17like Trident and Nato.

0:16:17 > 0:16:19Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:19 > 0:16:22secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:22 > 0:16:24Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:24 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:38same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:38 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:54of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:54 > 0:16:57Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:57 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:04spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:04 > 0:17:09Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:09 > 0:17:13cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:13 > 0:17:18more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:18 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:26McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:26 > 0:17:32using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:32 > 0:17:36Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:36 > 0:17:41it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:41 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:55pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:55 > 0:17:58on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:58 > 0:18:00Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:00 > 0:18:06Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:06 > 0:18:10about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:10 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:21very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:21 > 0:18:25and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:25 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:35In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:35 > 0:18:39extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:39 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:47are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:47 > 0:18:52kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:52 > 0:18:56are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:56 > 0:19:01a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:01 > 0:19:07spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:07 > 0:19:11way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:11 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:20about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:20 > 0:19:23current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:23 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:34at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:34 > 0:19:39they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:39 > 0:19:46£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:46 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:00make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:00 > 0:20:04been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:04 > 0:20:10on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:10 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:19already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:19 > 0:20:22The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:22 > 0:20:27there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:27 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:39incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:39 > 0:20:44to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:44 > 0:20:48missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:48 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:57that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:57 > 0:21:00somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:00 > 0:21:05world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:05 > 0:21:09proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:09 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:21have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:21 > 0:21:25disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:25 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:34have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:34 > 0:21:39will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:39 > 0:21:44need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:44 > 0:21:47multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:47 > 0:21:50eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:50 > 0:21:54to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:54 > 0:21:57I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:57 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:08from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:08 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:16Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:16 > 0:22:21use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:21 > 0:22:25disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:25 > 0:22:29Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:29 > 0:22:32know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:32 > 0:22:39it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:39 > 0:22:44changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:44 > 0:22:48Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:48 > 0:22:53is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:53 > 0:22:56Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:56 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:12stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:12 > 0:23:17sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:17 > 0:23:21Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:21 > 0:23:24your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:24 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:33Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:33 > 0:23:35why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:35 > 0:23:40important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:40 > 0:23:45happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:45 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:56has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:56 > 0:24:01has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:01 > 0:24:04the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:04 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:19speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:19 > 0:24:23information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:23 > 0:24:27who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:27 > 0:24:31be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:31 > 0:24:35this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:35 > 0:24:40with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:40 > 0:24:43prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:43 > 0:24:48it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:48 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:57they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:57 > 0:25:02making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:02 > 0:25:07was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:07 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:19Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:19 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:29ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:29 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:35nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:35 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:45and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:45 > 0:25:49friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:49 > 0:25:54can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:54 > 0:25:57important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:57 > 0:26:01happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:01 > 0:26:07party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:07 > 0:26:07to us

0:26:07 > 0:26:09For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:09 > 0:26:11on the left of politics,

0:26:11 > 0:26:13this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:13 > 0:26:15to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:15 > 0:26:18plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:18 > 0:26:20ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:20 > 0:26:22and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:22 > 0:26:24For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:30 > 0:26:32The 7th November 1917.

0:26:32 > 0:26:36Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:36 > 0:26:41Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:41 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:46because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:46 > 0:26:49was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:49 > 0:26:53The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:53 > 0:26:58The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:58 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:04Then war.

0:27:04 > 0:27:09Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:09 > 0:27:14The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:14 > 0:27:20The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:20 > 0:27:23October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:23 > 0:27:27asserting their authority.

0:27:29 > 0:27:32A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:32 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:39celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:39 > 0:27:42Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:42 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:48the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:48 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:52It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:52 > 0:27:55Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:55 > 0:27:57I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:57 > 0:28:00Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:00 > 0:28:03was chairing the opening session.

0:28:03 > 0:28:06He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:06 > 0:28:12to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:12 > 0:28:15TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:15 > 0:28:18which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:18 > 0:28:20and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:20 > 0:28:24A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:24 > 0:28:26We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:26 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:41of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:41 > 0:28:43and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:43 > 0:28:47But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:47 > 0:28:51the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:51 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:00Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:00 > 0:29:04the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:04 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:12Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:12 > 0:29:15The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:15 > 0:29:19But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:19 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:27of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:27 > 0:29:31as something to celebrate.

0:29:32 > 0:29:34That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:34 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:38for celebration, or regret?

0:29:38 > 0:29:40Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:40 > 0:29:46and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:46 > 0:29:51Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:51 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:29:59revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:29:59 > 0:30:03truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:03 > 0:30:10wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:10 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:21elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:21 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:31Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:31 > 0:30:33former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:33 > 0:30:41true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:41 > 0:30:45the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:45 > 0:30:54Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:54 > 0:31:04suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:04 > 0:31:11Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:11 > 0:31:18And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:18 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:22 > 0:31:27years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:27 > 0:31:32in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:32 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:52Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:52 > 0:31:57was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:57 > 0:32:01brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:01 > 0:32:05I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:05 > 0:32:08why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:08 > 0:32:11misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:11 > 0:32:14possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:14 > 0:32:20and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:20 > 0:32:22intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:22 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:34statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:34 > 0:32:41labour

0:32:41 > 0:32:47camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:47 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:00celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:00 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:09decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:09 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:17earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:17 > 0:33:23that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:23 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:37system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:37 > 0:33:41despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:41 > 0:33:45mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:45 > 0:33:48which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:48 > 0:33:53Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:53 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:03about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:03 > 0:34:06events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:06 > 0:34:11the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:11 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:29in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:29 > 0:34:36mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:36 > 0:34:39has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:39 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:54second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:54 > 0:34:57not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:57 > 0:35:03would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:03 > 0:35:09and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:09 > 0:35:13discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:13 > 0:35:20Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:20 > 0:35:25world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:25 > 0:35:30and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:30 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:39You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:39 > 0:35:45Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:45 > 0:35:52Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:52 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:10for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:10 > 0:36:162008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:16 > 0:36:21Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:21 > 0:36:31Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:31 > 0:36:38not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:38 > 0:36:42Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:42 > 0:36:48them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:48 > 0:36:51need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:51 > 0:36:58possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:58 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:11by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:11 > 0:37:151949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:15 > 0:37:19leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:19 > 0:37:25economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:25 > 0:37:28they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:28 > 0:37:31country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:31 > 0:37:34don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:34 > 0:37:38of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:38 > 0:37:42not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:42 > 0:37:48the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:48 > 0:37:51own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:51 > 0:37:54in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:54 > 0:37:57to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:57 > 0:38:00not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:00 > 0:38:05and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:05 > 0:38:11has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:11 > 0:38:17go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:17 > 0:38:19truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:19 > 0:38:23that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:23 > 0:38:25told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:25 > 0:38:29been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:29 > 0:38:34it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:34 > 0:38:39question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:39 > 0:38:42London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:42 > 0:38:45celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:45 > 0:38:50is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:50 > 0:38:54celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:54 > 0:38:59the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:59 > 0:39:05the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:05 > 0:39:07thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:07 > 0:39:12rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:12 > 0:39:16people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:16 > 0:39:22Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:22 > 0:39:29succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:29 > 0:39:37the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:37 > 0:39:41kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:41 > 0:39:46Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:46 > 0:39:48for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:48 > 0:39:49It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:50 > 0:39:53Coming up on the programme:

0:39:53 > 0:39:56We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:56 > 0:39:59We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:59 > 0:40:02It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:02 > 0:40:03We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:03 > 0:40:10does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:13 > 0:40:14Hello.

0:40:14 > 0:40:15I'm Martin Oates.

0:40:15 > 0:40:18Coming up on Sunday Politics, here in the south-west:

0:40:18 > 0:40:21Remembering one of the region's most charismatic MPs.

0:40:21 > 0:40:24The former member for Falmouth and Camborne Candy Atherton,

0:40:24 > 0:40:28who died this week aged 62.

0:40:28 > 0:40:30And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Labour councillor

0:40:30 > 0:40:32Rosie Denham and Conservative MP Steve Double.

0:40:32 > 0:40:35Welcome back to both of you.

0:40:35 > 0:40:37Let's start with a warning from the region's longest serving

0:40:37 > 0:40:42Conservative MP that this week delivered a bleak assessment

0:40:42 > 0:40:47of his own government.

0:40:56 > 0:40:59Steve, you obviously weren't in Parliament as Gary is the only

0:40:59 > 0:41:02one of the region's MPs who's been in Parliament that long, but do

0:41:02 > 0:41:05you recognise anything he says?

0:41:05 > 0:41:07Clearly these are very difficult times and we certainly not had

0:41:07 > 0:41:11a great week and I think we do need to take notice of people like Gary

0:41:11 > 0:41:16who have been around a long time and listen to the warnings

0:41:16 > 0:41:20he is giving us, but the point I'd make is that the one thing I think

0:41:20 > 0:41:23is very different now than it was in '92 is the Labour

0:41:23 > 0:41:24Party are also very different.

0:41:24 > 0:41:29He makes that point in The Times on the back of his story.

0:41:29 > 0:41:32And they also have huge challenges of their own,

0:41:32 > 0:41:35so I think in that regard it's very different from '92 to '97,

0:41:35 > 0:41:38but clearly as a Conservative Party we need to listen and heed those

0:41:38 > 0:41:39warnings.

0:41:39 > 0:41:42Rosie, who was obviously invited to write an opinion piece

0:41:42 > 0:41:45in The Times having tweeted that and he says one of the big

0:41:45 > 0:41:48differences in the '92 to '97 Parliament, Blair was the coming

0:41:48 > 0:41:51thing, it was clear the Labour Party were strong and was going

0:41:51 > 0:41:52to carry all before it.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54He is saying the opposite is the case now.

0:41:54 > 0:41:57I don't think it's the opposite at all.

0:41:57 > 0:41:59Yes, the Labour Party has been through some difficult times

0:41:59 > 0:42:02and everyone is well aware of that, but actually, the party feels

0:42:02 > 0:42:06really, really united at the moment.

0:42:06 > 0:42:09There is much clever position now on Brexit,

0:42:09 > 0:42:11which I think is welcomed

0:42:11 > 0:42:13a lot by our members and our supporters and I think

0:42:13 > 0:42:16the country is looking for much greater leadership and clarity

0:42:16 > 0:42:22and at the moment the Labour Party is the only party offering that.

0:42:22 > 0:42:25Which position have they got on Brexit this week?

0:42:25 > 0:42:28It seems to change every week.

0:42:28 > 0:42:38Gary also says in The Times piece that it will be possible

0:42:39 > 0:42:41for the Conservatives to soon-ish to appear fresh again.

0:42:41 > 0:42:43At this point in time do you think that...?

0:42:43 > 0:42:46I think that we've got some incredibly talented and capable

0:42:46 > 0:42:48new MPs over the last two or three elections to I think

0:42:49 > 0:42:50are coming into their own now.

0:42:50 > 0:42:55I think the future is very positive.

0:42:55 > 0:42:57Have the old guard had it?

0:42:57 > 0:42:58Is that what you're saying?

0:42:58 > 0:43:00Well I think that will happen naturally, won't it?

0:43:00 > 0:43:03And I think we need to buckle down and get behind the current

0:43:03 > 0:43:05Prime Minister, but also look to the future.

0:43:05 > 0:43:07I think new people coming through, younger people coming

0:43:07 > 0:43:10through is going to be good for our party and I think

0:43:10 > 0:43:12that is starting to happen.

0:43:12 > 0:43:14Now, how many times on this programme have you heard

0:43:14 > 0:43:16politicians, people and even presenters said that there

0:43:16 > 0:43:18is a desperate shortage of affordable housing?

0:43:18 > 0:43:21If you had a pound for a number of times, you could probably have

0:43:21 > 0:43:22bought a home by now.

0:43:22 > 0:43:23Then again, sadly, probably not.

0:43:23 > 0:43:27The south-west suffers from the twin pronged attack of having relatively

0:43:27 > 0:43:29low wages and in some cases sky-high accommodation prices.

0:43:29 > 0:43:33The government has recently unveiled yet another initiative to tackle

0:43:33 > 0:43:35the problem and John Henderson has had a crack at working

0:43:35 > 0:43:37out what it could mean.

0:43:37 > 0:43:40It's a stunning landscape, and natural grand design,

0:43:40 > 0:43:43but living the dream in South Devon is something beyond

0:43:43 > 0:43:46the means of most.

0:43:46 > 0:43:48There's so many, there's so much need for housing,

0:43:48 > 0:43:51down here, Cornwall, all over the place.

0:43:51 > 0:43:55I rent in the private sector and it costs a fortune to live here.

0:43:55 > 0:44:05The solution is to first of all reappraise the demand realistically.

0:44:05 > 0:44:10And a reappraisal is exactly what the government says it's doing

0:44:10 > 0:44:14to fix what it describes as a broken housing market.

0:44:14 > 0:44:20In any area where the average house prices are more than four

0:44:20 > 0:44:23times average earnings, we increase the number of homes

0:44:23 > 0:44:27that will be planned.

0:44:27 > 0:44:30Mr Javid says his new formula is based on a more honest method

0:44:30 > 0:44:32for calculating housing need.

0:44:32 > 0:44:36One which looks at the ratio between earnings and house prices.

0:44:36 > 0:44:39It means asking councils with high house prices to build more

0:44:39 > 0:44:44and attempt to balance supply and demand.

0:44:44 > 0:44:48Here's a breakdown of those authorities that would have to build

0:44:48 > 0:44:53more houses in red and those that would have to build fewer in blue.

0:44:53 > 0:44:59Pricey South Hams would go from seeing 196 homes a year up to 354.

0:44:59 > 0:45:02For campaigners who fought various developments or had proposals

0:45:02 > 0:45:07for community projects refused, it's the worst news.

0:45:07 > 0:45:09Horrified, absolutely horrified.

0:45:09 > 0:45:13I mean, we're promised 1,000 extra houses for Totnes in Dartington.

0:45:13 > 0:45:15Just imagine, it's a bottleneck.

0:45:15 > 0:45:18Just imagine when the traffic comes through, it's already

0:45:18 > 0:45:26completely congested.

0:45:26 > 0:45:27Others welcomed the government's new approach.

0:45:27 > 0:45:30We can't carry on complaining about how there is a housing crisis,

0:45:30 > 0:45:33about how young people can't afford to get onto the housing ladder

0:45:33 > 0:45:36and then when we are presented with a solution, duck our heads

0:45:36 > 0:45:37and walk away.

0:45:37 > 0:45:40We have to face this problem head on and that means finding more

0:45:40 > 0:45:42sites for more houses.

0:45:42 > 0:45:44But Mr Javid's plans to rebalance the market might be scuppered

0:45:44 > 0:45:47by councils who are joining forces.

0:45:47 > 0:45:50Here in the South Hams the local housing plan is shared

0:45:50 > 0:45:53with West Devon and Plymouth.

0:45:53 > 0:45:56The three councils combined have seen a slight fall

0:45:56 > 0:46:00in the government's house building expectations.

0:46:00 > 0:46:03But still going it alone, Torbay has seen a lot

0:46:03 > 0:46:04of development of late.

0:46:04 > 0:46:09A few years ago the BBC filmed these fields being prepared to houses.

0:46:09 > 0:46:11Now they are going up, but under the new formula the number

0:46:11 > 0:46:14of houses built every year in Torbay would fall from just

0:46:14 > 0:46:19over 1,000 to 588.

0:46:19 > 0:46:22Those who've drilled the numbers aren't surprised.

0:46:22 > 0:46:26Well I think the general consensus in Torbay is that we don't actually

0:46:26 > 0:46:30need that many homes because the economy is flat-lining.

0:46:30 > 0:46:34As if to reiterate the point, a former planning chief who has

0:46:34 > 0:46:38helped draw up Paignton's housing plan says jobs must come first.

0:46:38 > 0:46:41The link with employment and jobs and through that the income

0:46:41 > 0:46:45because without an income you can't rent or buy.

0:46:45 > 0:46:47It's that basic.

0:46:47 > 0:46:50So the link with jobs is critically important and you must have that

0:46:50 > 0:46:53balance and as soon as that balance is not recognised or get out

0:46:53 > 0:46:59of balance, you get a problem.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02Providing enough jobs to support new homes is an even bigger

0:47:02 > 0:47:04challenge in the South Hams, but then most buying

0:47:04 > 0:47:07homes here on thinking about the nine to five.

0:47:16 > 0:47:18here aren't thinking about the nine to five.

0:47:18 > 0:47:19John Henderson reporting.

0:47:19 > 0:47:22Well joining us to discuss this further is the councillor

0:47:22 > 0:47:24in charge of house planning in the South Hams Michael Hicks.

0:47:24 > 0:47:25Welcome to the programme.

0:47:25 > 0:47:26Thank you.

0:47:26 > 0:47:29You are obviously one of the councils who have been told

0:47:29 > 0:47:32you are not planning enough houses and the government is suggesting

0:47:32 > 0:47:34you should almost double the number of projected new homes.

0:47:34 > 0:47:36Well, they are suggesting that, or at least it seems

0:47:36 > 0:47:38as if they are suggesting that.

0:47:38 > 0:47:41There is a debate about how much they are willing to stake on this.

0:47:41 > 0:47:42Will come onto that.

0:47:42 > 0:47:45Well, there are two things I need to sort out to start with.

0:47:45 > 0:47:48The first thing is that our local plan is with the inspector

0:47:48 > 0:47:51at the moment and we are under the consultation document allowed

0:47:51 > 0:47:53to continue with that under the old rules.

0:47:53 > 0:47:56So the new rules will not apply to our plan unless something goes

0:47:56 > 0:48:05pear shaped and it has to be started again.

0:48:05 > 0:48:09The other thing is that we have looked at the consultation document,

0:48:09 > 0:48:15obviously, and we have decided to do a calculation based on the

0:48:15 > 0:48:21government's suggestions and one we did that we found that the figure we

0:48:21 > 0:48:32came out with for the local plan is 900 houses more than that figure. So

0:48:32 > 0:48:36we are in fact exceeding what the government would have said had we

0:48:36 > 0:48:40used that calculation.So you are saying the government has got it

0:48:40 > 0:48:47wrong in your case?No, I am saying -- no, I am not saying that the

0:48:47 > 0:48:53government has got it wrong. You will end up talking about if you are

0:48:53 > 0:48:59not careful two different things. But yours is the correct figure and

0:48:59 > 0:49:09the government's figure is wrong? No, it's the difference between the

0:49:09 > 0:49:12objectively assessed need which is the starting point in all local

0:49:12 > 0:49:23plans. That is deliberated over for some time and we decide to arrive at

0:49:23 > 0:49:29a figure and that figure is somewhere near 354, which the

0:49:29 > 0:49:35government has in the list. But what you have to do then is moderate that

0:49:35 > 0:49:39figure by using what we call adjustments and the adjustments in

0:49:39 > 0:49:46question are many and varied. In fact, you have to deal with

0:49:46 > 0:49:50employment...So you are potentially saying that local knowledge should

0:49:50 > 0:49:59ultimately determine and outline prescription.I think it should it

0:49:59 > 0:50:04does up to a point, but it's important for us to understand which

0:50:04 > 0:50:10figure is one we end up with.Steve, some people are seeing this as the

0:50:10 > 0:50:13end of the process where government has said you have had a certain

0:50:13 > 0:50:17amount of time to get your own houses in order, as it work, and if

0:50:17 > 0:50:23you don't, will step in?The housing situation is one of the biggest

0:50:23 > 0:50:26challenges facing our country and it's clear that the way things have

0:50:26 > 0:50:31been done in the past have worked. In some ways this is a good approach

0:50:31 > 0:50:36in not having a one size fits all approach to housing needs, but

0:50:36 > 0:50:41looking at local house prices and wages. The meeting point for me in

0:50:41 > 0:50:45places like all well and parts of Devon is also looking at some of the

0:50:45 > 0:50:48other factors in terms of second homes, the number of people wanting

0:50:48 > 0:50:54to move into the area and retire which is what largely inflate house

0:50:54 > 0:50:56prices in these areas. I don't think the government has taken that

0:50:56 > 0:51:04element into consideration. We need to look a bit deeper.Are you happy

0:51:04 > 0:51:09with the projected number of houses were corn well? Cornwall hasn't

0:51:09 > 0:51:14changed very much. But generally in Cornwall it looks as if they are

0:51:14 > 0:51:20pretty much in the government's books. On the other hand, and lots

0:51:20 > 0:51:25of Cornish residents have become servants.When the local plan

0:51:25 > 0:51:29figures were put together for Cornwall it was a bottom-up process

0:51:29 > 0:51:33with local parishes saying what they felt the need was and we came up

0:51:33 > 0:51:36with a figure. The planning inspector then added to that because

0:51:36 > 0:51:40of the factor of second homes that had not been built in and that is

0:51:40 > 0:51:44one of the big issues that has to be addressed when we are looking at

0:51:44 > 0:51:48housing need in places in the south-west where people are buying

0:51:48 > 0:51:52holiday homes and people in large numbers are retiring to. It is a

0:51:52 > 0:52:02step in the right direction, but you said, local knowledge needs to be

0:52:02 > 0:52:05factored in.Rosie, some people are saying that this is a big stick

0:52:05 > 0:52:10approach. Back in the day, John Prescott took a similar approach.

0:52:10 > 0:52:15House building has been a disaster under this government.It was not

0:52:15 > 0:52:20great under your government.It is well acknowledged in the Labour

0:52:20 > 0:52:25Party that it is one of the things we wish we had done more of, but the

0:52:25 > 0:52:32situation is far worse now and the levels of affordable house building

0:52:32 > 0:52:39is at an all-time low. It's about the type of how sweet it is well and

0:52:39 > 0:52:43councils don't have control. Control is being taken away during the

0:52:43 > 0:52:45planning process and they can't dictate the type of housing they

0:52:45 > 0:52:54want to see. It's not a surprise that we are seeing the government

0:52:54 > 0:52:59make these changes, but we also need to see recognition of the issues

0:52:59 > 0:53:05like second homes, but also wider spread issues around affordable

0:53:05 > 0:53:10housing and how we deliver that. Michael finally on that point, would

0:53:10 > 0:53:17you agree that it's not just about building houses, it's about the type

0:53:17 > 0:53:27of houses?It's not just about building housing the delete-macro

0:53:27 > 0:53:36houses, we need more low-cost housing. That's what is so difficult

0:53:36 > 0:53:41to do with because affordable housing is funded by the higher cost

0:53:41 > 0:53:47housing and the agreement we have with our local plan at the moment is

0:53:47 > 0:53:5330% affordable on any development and that is something that we will

0:53:53 > 0:53:57reinforce, but that means if you want to increase the number of

0:53:57 > 0:54:02houses in the South Hams, you have got to have an awful lot of houses

0:54:02 > 0:54:07just to acquire a fuel at low cost. OK. Thank you very much for joining

0:54:07 > 0:54:17us. Devastated, decimated and destroyed. Some of the words used

0:54:17 > 0:54:27regarding the impact on Brexit. It's thought that the local market could

0:54:27 > 0:54:34be swamped by low-cost products coming in from other areas.

0:54:34 > 0:54:38So we are in some of our over winter crops which are part of our mid tier

0:54:38 > 0:54:39scheme that we've just started.

0:54:39 > 0:54:41Thinking ahead is something that fits generation farmer George has

0:54:48 > 0:54:50Thinking ahead is something that fifth generation farmer George has

0:54:50 > 0:54:53been preoccupied with ever since the vote to leave the EU.

0:54:53 > 0:54:55We will drill our next spring crop into the residue.

0:54:55 > 0:54:57So we will spray it off...

0:54:57 > 0:54:58So we will spray it off...

0:54:58 > 0:55:01On this 600 acre mixed crop and cattle from the Exeter

0:55:01 > 0:55:04which she runs in partnership with his parents he is thinking

0:55:04 > 0:55:06environmentally, as well as bringing in a new grazing system

0:55:06 > 0:55:07for their beef herd.

0:55:07 > 0:55:10The idea is to head off any issues Brexit might cause.

0:55:10 > 0:55:12Clamping down on costs, shouting about the premium product

0:55:12 > 0:55:14and negotiating a direct deal with London butcher shops.

0:55:14 > 0:55:16The key concern here is that post-Brexit trade deals

0:55:16 > 0:55:19with countries outside the EU could mean the British market

0:55:19 > 0:55:21is flooded by much cheaper meat from mass producers abroad.

0:55:21 > 0:55:24We've got such a high welfare model here in the UK.

0:55:24 > 0:55:27It's probably some of the best beef you'll find in the world

0:55:27 > 0:55:30and we follow those assurance guidelines and the cross

0:55:30 > 0:55:38compliance guidelines.

0:55:38 > 0:55:41So if they are just going to undercut by bringing in lesser

0:55:41 > 0:55:47quality imported beef, it's good to be very difficult.

0:55:47 > 0:55:49Trying to Brexit-proof a family farm like this without really knowing

0:55:49 > 0:55:52what Brexit is going to mean is the sea and issue and some

0:55:52 > 0:55:57of the concerns are taken directly to Westminster week.

0:55:57 > 0:56:00The son is very ambitious, but this isn't easy, this isn't easy

0:56:00 > 0:56:07at all because with regulation and high animal welfare and...

0:56:07 > 0:56:09As George keeps an eye on the farm, his mother was telling

0:56:09 > 0:56:11MPs his future depends on the government

0:56:11 > 0:56:15getting Brexit right.

0:56:15 > 0:56:18If you're not making money on your farm and you're not finding

0:56:18 > 0:56:21that you have any profitability or margin whatsoever,

0:56:21 > 0:56:24you will not continue with that particular product,

0:56:24 > 0:56:29or livestock, or beef production or lamb production.

0:56:29 > 0:56:33It will be literally landscapes without livestock.

0:56:33 > 0:56:36The government says its aim is to achieve the exact same trade

0:56:36 > 0:56:39benefits outside the EU as we enjoy inside.

0:56:39 > 0:56:42A challenge that those on this Devon farm are hopeful can be achieved,

0:56:42 > 0:56:44but they are continuing with their plan for if it

0:56:44 > 0:56:54isn't, just in case.

0:56:55 > 0:56:58Steve, there were farmers leaders lining up really to say that there

0:56:58 > 0:57:03was a real risk of things go badly wrong on two fronts. One is leaving

0:57:03 > 0:57:13the EU without any deal and enormous tariffs being imposed and this fear

0:57:13 > 0:57:19of cheap imports coming in from outside.Yes. First of all we are

0:57:19 > 0:57:27hopeful that we will get a deal.It is no deal acceptable to you?I

0:57:27 > 0:57:31think it went been to the farmers. To coin a phrase, no deal is better

0:57:31 > 0:57:42than a bad one. We do need to prepare for a no deal. Different

0:57:42 > 0:57:46sectors will be affected differently, but what the government

0:57:46 > 0:57:50has been clear on is maintaining welfare standards for animals in any

0:57:50 > 0:57:54trade deal will have to reflect that. I don't imagine a situation

0:57:54 > 0:57:59where in the trade deal we would allow our market... The government

0:57:59 > 0:58:06wants us to be more self-sufficient in home-grown food. We currently

0:58:06 > 0:58:09import 35% and the government wanted to go down so I then think they will

0:58:09 > 0:58:14allow the market to be flooded with cheap imports. We will look to

0:58:14 > 0:58:23maintain standards.There are Conservative MPs who disagree. What

0:58:23 > 0:58:28is your position?Farmers are right to be worried. I would say no deal

0:58:28 > 0:58:33is a bad deal, so I don't think that distinction is a helpful one. Of

0:58:33 > 0:58:38course there is a worry about the ability to export, there is a right

0:58:38 > 0:58:42to be worried about imports and if we have no deal then we will be very

0:58:42 > 0:58:47exposed and I think it is the cost, but it's also the welfare of the

0:58:47 > 0:58:51animals, the quality of the meat coming to market. All of those

0:58:51 > 0:58:54things are important to consumers and we should be making sure that we

0:58:54 > 0:59:00do have all of those protections in place and if we don't have a deal

0:59:00 > 0:59:04then we are incredibly exposed. Rosie has touched on the fact that

0:59:04 > 0:59:09there are huge opportunities for export. Liam Fox and the

0:59:09 > 0:59:12international trade Department are really working on export

0:59:12 > 0:59:14opportunities, particularly with Southwest bombers and there will be

0:59:14 > 0:59:28positive opportunities.In a break with tradition, we will now be

0:59:28 > 0:59:35paying tribute to Candy Atherton, who passed away on Monday.

0:59:35 > 0:59:37# I've lived a life that's for

0:59:37 > 0:59:41# I travelled each and every highway

0:59:41 > 0:59:43# And more, much more than this

0:59:43 > 0:59:51# I did it my way...#

0:59:51 > 0:59:54I'm stuck!

0:59:54 > 0:59:55LAUGHTER

0:59:55 > 0:59:56The party serves.

0:59:56 > 0:59:57Can you manage?

0:59:57 > 0:59:59Are you all right now?

0:59:59 > 1:00:01Oh, dear!

1:00:01 > 1:00:02Right, we'll try again.

1:00:02 > 1:00:03Thank you.

1:00:03 > 1:00:04There we go.

1:00:04 > 1:00:06APPLAUSE

1:00:06 > 1:00:09You and Jeremy Corbyn go back a long

1:00:09 > 1:00:12way because he was your MP when you were a councillor?

1:00:12 > 1:00:13Yes.

1:00:13 > 1:00:16I served six years in Islington and I was mayor and

1:00:16 > 1:00:18Jeremy was the north Islington member of Parliament,

1:00:18 > 1:00:21so obviously we came together to do all sorts of things and

1:00:21 > 1:00:23I've known him for years.

1:00:23 > 1:00:24We don't always agree about everything, but

1:00:24 > 1:00:27we've always got on as friends.

1:00:27 > 1:00:29You were then an MP under Tony Blair.

1:00:29 > 1:00:32Well I was always to the left of Tony Blair, it

1:00:32 > 1:00:34would be fair to say.

1:00:34 > 1:00:36We all got, well every woman was called a

1:00:36 > 1:00:40Blairite and actually, you know, there was a wide spectrum of women

1:00:40 > 1:00:43right through the party, and male MPs.

1:00:43 > 1:00:45# I'll state my case...#

1:00:45 > 1:00:47Falmouth and Camborne have come home to

1:00:47 > 1:00:53Labour.

1:00:53 > 1:00:54# Of which I'm certain...#

1:00:54 > 1:00:58I think it's a cock up and they really are going to have to get

1:00:58 > 1:00:59their act together before next May's election.

1:00:59 > 1:01:01Get in there and sort it out.

1:01:01 > 1:01:02You have that strength.

1:01:02 > 1:01:05# I find it all so amusing...#

1:01:05 > 1:01:07Yes!

1:01:07 > 1:01:09It's amazing, that, and you didn't think that was

1:01:09 > 1:01:10an issue.

1:01:10 > 1:01:16I think that's a big issue.

1:01:16 > 1:01:19I wouldn't have thought it was an issue for a moment because...

1:01:19 > 1:01:20LAUGHTER

1:01:20 > 1:01:22# And may I say not in a shy way

1:01:22 > 1:01:30# Oh, no, oh, no, not me

1:01:30 > 1:01:38# I did it my way.#

1:01:54 > 1:02:05Rosie, you are at the other end of the region, but candy's influence

1:02:05 > 1:02:13spread across the wider region.Yes, she contributed a great amount. --

1:02:13 > 1:02:21Candy.Steve, you have crossed swords with her on this programme

1:02:21 > 1:02:25and in other situations.I met her most often appearing on this

1:02:25 > 1:02:28programme, but clearly a huge figure in south-west politics and someone I

1:02:28 > 1:02:36probably did not agree with about much, but I respected her because

1:02:36 > 1:02:39she campaigned passionately and clearly achieved a lot in her time

1:02:39 > 1:02:48as an MP.I was told that she was a tribal loyal Labour person and she

1:02:48 > 1:02:56also did a lot behind the scenes cross party.She fundamentally just

1:02:56 > 1:03:00believed in getting on getting things done and serving her

1:03:00 > 1:03:04community.Thank you both. I remember her as being great fun as

1:03:04 > 1:03:05well. That

1:03:05 > 1:03:06to support.

1:03:06 > 1:03:09All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:09 > 1:03:11My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:14It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:14 > 1:03:15again, you might think.

1:03:15 > 1:03:17She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:17 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:24vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:24 > 1:03:25this time apparently over housing.

1:03:25 > 1:03:28So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:28 > 1:03:29or more of a whimper?

1:03:29 > 1:03:30Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:30 > 1:03:32and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:32 > 1:03:34to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:34 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:44 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:51but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:51 > 1:03:55it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:55 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:04# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:04 > 1:04:06With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:06 > 1:04:10and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:10 > 1:04:13So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:16 > 1:04:19She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:19 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:22I think she's in control.

1:04:22 > 1:04:24She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:24 > 1:04:25No, I don't.

1:04:25 > 1:04:27I think she's a mess.

1:04:27 > 1:04:29Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:29 > 1:04:32by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:32 > 1:04:36I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:38 > 1:04:42I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:42 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:51The Queen is England's role.

1:04:51 > 1:04:53It's her birth right.

1:04:53 > 1:04:56She is England's role of this country.

1:04:56 > 1:04:59I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:59 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:07I think she could have done better.

1:05:07 > 1:05:10The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:10 > 1:05:11I think she should resign, really.

1:05:11 > 1:05:14I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:14 > 1:05:16I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:16 > 1:05:19She's doing her best.

1:05:19 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:25moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:25 > 1:05:27Very disappointed.

1:05:27 > 1:05:33Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:33 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:38But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:38 > 1:05:40despite the current difficulties.

1:05:40 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:45in the first place for the euro.

1:05:45 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:51I don't see an end to it.

1:05:51 > 1:05:53Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:53 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:00and the result is...

1:06:00 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:03The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:03 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:06 > 1:06:10CHEERING

1:06:10 > 1:06:12That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:12 > 1:06:19to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:19 > 1:06:24Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:24 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:32Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:32 > 1:06:36swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:36 > 1:06:43All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:43 > 1:06:47tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:47 > 1:06:53her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:53 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:11goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:11 > 1:07:15think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:15 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:24basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:24 > 1:07:29basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:29 > 1:07:33minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:33 > 1:07:37impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:37 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:44action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:44 > 1:07:48get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:48 > 1:07:54her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:54 > 1:07:57is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:57 > 1:08:02Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:02 > 1:08:06not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:06 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:18has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:18 > 1:08:22her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:22 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:37longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:37 > 1:08:41or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:41 > 1:08:48being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:48 > 1:08:52think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:52 > 1:08:55Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:55 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:04Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:04 > 1:09:08again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:08 > 1:09:13investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:13 > 1:09:18into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:18 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:27the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:27 > 1:09:32promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:32 > 1:09:37simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:37 > 1:09:40not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:40 > 1:09:44possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:44 > 1:09:49seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:49 > 1:09:58goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:58 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:12are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:12 > 1:10:16Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:16 > 1:10:23in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:23 > 1:10:28say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:28 > 1:10:32less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:32 > 1:10:38Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:38 > 1:10:43Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:43 > 1:10:45vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:45 > 1:10:49They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:49 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:58Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:58 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:10guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:10 > 1:11:14part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:14 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:22what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:22 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:30Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:30 > 1:11:34glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:34 > 1:11:38should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:38 > 1:11:42a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:42 > 1:11:46of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:46 > 1:11:50quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:50 > 1:11:54steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:54 > 1:11:59that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:59 > 1:12:02expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:02 > 1:12:07the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:07 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:16Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:16 > 1:12:21do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:21 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:31is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:31 > 1:12:37Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:37 > 1:12:41witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:41 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:49bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:49 > 1:12:53in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:53 > 1:12:59be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:12:59 > 1:13:04Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:04 > 1:13:07are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:07 > 1:13:08to build for themselves.

1:13:08 > 1:13:10That's all for today.

1:13:10 > 1:13:12There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:12 > 1:13:13while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:13 > 1:13:17but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:17 > 1:13:21Until then, bye bye.