:01:41. > :01:44.Coming up in Sunday Politics South: �150 million to help secure almost
:01:44. > :01:54.2000 jobs. The scheme that will bring bigger
:01:54. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :31:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1762 seconds
:31:17. > :31:19.Welcome to Sunday Politics South. I'm Peter Henley. On today's show:
:31:19. > :31:22.A �150 million upgrade to Southampton docks looks like it's
:31:22. > :31:32.got the go-ahead and could save hundreds of jobs, but why did it
:31:32. > :31:33.
:31:33. > :31:42.take so long? More Matin a few minutes. Joining
:31:42. > :31:47.me are two of the region's MPs. Dr Julian Lewis is the MP for New
:31:47. > :31:54.Forest East. Let us first talk about the employ menus we had this
:31:54. > :31:58.week. The port is part of that. Do you think, Julian, that the South
:31:58. > :32:03.is escaping well out of this problem with the economy? I do not
:32:03. > :32:07.think anybody can rely on escaping well out of this problem because it
:32:07. > :32:11.is something of such magnitude that the whole of the country will be
:32:11. > :32:16.affected to a greater or lesser degree. The South, I think, is as
:32:16. > :32:22.well placed as any other part of the country to write some of these
:32:22. > :32:27.storms but, we must not kid ourselves that it is a very
:32:28. > :32:32.difficult situation. John, new figures come out tomorrow and
:32:32. > :32:40.Reading was in the top five to whether the economic storm, is that
:32:40. > :32:43.likely to be the same? Southampton, Portsmouth, Gosport,
:32:43. > :32:47.Hastings, Brighton, the unemployment figures are looking
:32:47. > :32:51.much more like you're seeing in the Midlands and the north so while
:32:51. > :32:55.there are parts of the South that are not doing too badly, other
:32:55. > :33:00.parts are being hit hard. 18 months ago unemployment was coming down
:33:00. > :33:04.and the economy was growing. That has been thrown into reverse.
:33:04. > :33:07.Unemployment is going up and long- term youth unemployment is going up.
:33:07. > :33:12.The kind of schemes that used to be in place to help people out have
:33:12. > :33:15.all disappeared so it is a grim situation if you do not have a job.
:33:15. > :33:18.The reason some of these things were thrown into reverse is that we
:33:18. > :33:24.were spending money that we did not have. The Government is having to
:33:24. > :33:27.take a grip on it and make the books balance. Most people feel
:33:27. > :33:30.that says that having someone working and paying taxes is better
:33:31. > :33:35.than having somebody out of work and relying on tax payers to pay
:33:35. > :33:40.the benefits bill. That is where borrowing is going up. Real jobs
:33:40. > :33:47.you mention there. Good news for Southampton this week as it looks
:33:47. > :33:50.like a proposed investment in the port could get the go-ahead.
:33:50. > :33:54.The upgrade to two of the birds could allow a new generation of
:33:54. > :33:57.larger container ships to dock but Associated British Ports have been
:33:57. > :34:00.prevented from spending the money because of the threat of legal
:34:00. > :34:07.action from rival ports and it was claimed that government departments
:34:07. > :34:14.were unable to talk to each other. On Wednesday the minister promised
:34:14. > :34:18.to bang heads together. We need to be in step with a market that is
:34:18. > :34:21.world-leading. We have been world leaders in this for many years and
:34:21. > :34:27.we stepped back from that with the last government. They did not take
:34:27. > :34:31.it seriously but I do. Doug Morrison is here on the programme.
:34:31. > :34:34.You must have been relieved to hear the tone of what was said in
:34:34. > :34:41.Parliament this week. You must be frustrated that it did not happen
:34:41. > :34:47.until now. It was a five-year process. We started the process
:34:47. > :34:51.back in 2007 and it has been a long and tortuous route. This was a key
:34:51. > :34:59.that was already there. When you go back through the history, this was
:34:59. > :35:04.the original container berth back in the 1960s. Really, what we want
:35:04. > :35:12.to do is use it again for containers. To do that, you have to
:35:12. > :35:16.deepen the birth and we have to strengthen the key. To be waiting
:35:16. > :35:20.five years for a favourable decision is frankly ridiculous.
:35:20. > :35:23.Ridiculous from both governments. It was just politicians in general
:35:23. > :35:30.holding things up. I do not know if we can blame the politicians
:35:30. > :35:34.sitting across from here but it was really down to the officials and
:35:34. > :35:39.incompetence at times. I do nothing that is unfair. The minister
:35:39. > :35:45.referred to it as a cock-up so why do not think incompetence is too
:35:45. > :35:55.strong a word. Do you believe him that he will get on the case now?
:35:55. > :36:00.It is not his department's, so what we really want to do is... We are
:36:00. > :36:07.where we are. We have - but we cannot resolve that mistakes of the
:36:07. > :36:12.past but all we can do is make sure that there are no a necessary Mogg
:36:12. > :36:18.delays. In the New Forest, you are opposed the development of a bay.
:36:18. > :36:22.Looking back, that things difficult and that is told in the port of
:36:22. > :36:27.Southampton back. It is absolutely vindicated, even dead Morrison is
:36:27. > :36:30.giving me a smile and nod of camera. It has been an absolute pleasure
:36:30. > :36:35.for wants to be able to support Associated British Ports on an
:36:35. > :36:41.issue of this sort because we always said when breed waged our
:36:41. > :36:45.successful campaign at Dibden Bay on our side of Southampton Water,
:36:45. > :36:49.arguing that it should not be a container port, we always said
:36:49. > :36:52.there was great scope for development of container port
:36:52. > :36:55.facilities within the existing footprint of Associated British
:36:56. > :36:59.Ports's estate. That is what I have been trying to do and what they
:36:59. > :37:02.have been wrongly blocked from doing by the failure of these
:37:02. > :37:06.agencies to do their job properly. That is why people like John and I
:37:06. > :37:12.have been able to sing from the same song sheet and say get on with
:37:12. > :37:16.it. This prevents the risk of anywhere like Dibden Bay being
:37:16. > :37:22.spoiled. John, you have run these departments, why is it that things
:37:22. > :37:25.just do not happen when up the pair politicians at the top one them to
:37:25. > :37:32.happen. It is what has just been said. Sometimes people make
:37:32. > :37:35.mistakes, they are human. Five years! What happens is that the
:37:35. > :37:38.people that were dealing with this did not see the significance of
:37:38. > :37:43.what was at stake and they became terribly worried about getting it
:37:43. > :37:47.all right. There was a legal challenge from the people who ran
:37:47. > :37:51.Felixstowe out of naked commercial interest trying to hold up the
:37:51. > :37:54.project. I got involved with this with Doug Morrison and other
:37:54. > :37:57.colleagues and the feeling you got was that the people in these
:37:57. > :38:01.departments did not realise that actually if they did not get this
:38:01. > :38:05.through soon, the whole project could suffer and the port of
:38:05. > :38:09.Southampton could suffer. What we were able to do as politicians this
:38:09. > :38:15.week, with ministers, was actually say that this has got to be sorted
:38:15. > :38:18.out. The day after we had the big debate on Wednesday, two of us were
:38:18. > :38:22.at question time the next day and got the minister whose actual
:38:22. > :38:26.response was to promise after that we would get all have the resources
:38:26. > :38:29.and expertise that we needed. not a very good reflection on a
:38:29. > :38:33.government that were trying to make sure that they were in charge and
:38:33. > :38:36.speeding things up in terms of the Civil Service. According to my
:38:36. > :38:41.mathematics, we are a government that has been in place for 18
:38:41. > :38:44.months or less and this has reached -- this dispute has rumbled on for
:38:44. > :38:50.a much longer period and we are now taking it by the scruff of the neck
:38:50. > :38:55.and to getting on with it. All credit to job -- all credit to John
:38:55. > :38:58.for getting on with it. One of the big things about last week was we
:38:58. > :39:02.could have got nowhere by having a fascinating debate about whose
:39:02. > :39:07.fault it was. That would have got us nowhere. Something went wrong
:39:07. > :39:10.deep in the depth of the machine, a million miles from party politics.
:39:10. > :39:16.Actually it was much better for us all to come together and sorted out
:39:16. > :39:20.and not worry about who was in charge and whose fault it was.
:39:20. > :39:24.have asked if you are confident it will go through but there are also
:39:24. > :39:29.worries about the cruise ship trade given the accident in Italy. There
:39:29. > :39:36.is also the threat from Liverpool which we have talked at -- about at
:39:36. > :39:42.the past. Are you more optimistic than you have been? I think that
:39:42. > :39:46.the cruise ship situation, the minister expressed it very well in
:39:46. > :39:51.the debate, our heartfelt condolences go at to everyone who
:39:51. > :39:55.was affected but 16 million people crews during 2011 and we have to
:39:55. > :39:59.put it in perspective that there are very few incidents of that kind.
:39:59. > :40:08.I do not see the cruise-ship business being affected but there
:40:08. > :40:13.is also always the threat -- there is always the threat of Liverpool.
:40:13. > :40:16.We did 0.2 some of the Liverpool MPs that were there and pointed out
:40:16. > :40:21.that if they paid the money back there would be no argument. That
:40:21. > :40:24.has always been our point. We want all of the money paid back so there
:40:25. > :40:30.is a level playing field. Are you worried this could be a concession
:40:30. > :40:37.and you may use the cruise ship trade because this is a concession.
:40:37. > :40:41.I do not think they are connected. These are two different issues. The
:40:41. > :40:51.other one is a commercial operator doing everything they can to block
:40:51. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :40:59.a development. Thank you very much. Religion and politics don't mix
:40:59. > :41:01.they say. Well, increasingly that's simply not true. As Tristan Pascoe
:41:01. > :41:05.reports, senior clergy have been lining up to bend the government's
:41:05. > :41:08.ear over things political - but the question is, should they?
:41:08. > :41:15.The Archbishop of Canterbury used his Christmas sermon to warn that
:41:15. > :41:19.the financial crisis led to a financial breakdown... What the
:41:19. > :41:26.government is proposing in Wales... As every good student in history
:41:26. > :41:30.knows, in the 12th century Henry wanted to get rid of a turbulent
:41:30. > :41:34.priest. Loyalists interpreted it as a command and the Archbishop of
:41:34. > :41:39.Canterbury was brutally murdered on the steps of the cathedral.
:41:39. > :41:43.Hundreds of churches today bear his name. Things are a little more
:41:43. > :41:46.civilised nowadays. The last political confrontation between
:41:46. > :41:53.church and state was probably the Archbishop of Canterbury Robert
:41:53. > :41:57.Runcie preaching forgiveness for the Argentine forces during the
:41:57. > :42:03.Falklands contact -- Falklands conflict. Now the church is caught
:42:03. > :42:07.up its own political storm, right at its front door. Despite that,
:42:07. > :42:12.senior church leaders by the Bishop of Salisbury are not put off from
:42:12. > :42:16.entering the political fray. There is marvellous work with homeless
:42:17. > :42:20.people in Salisbury. The church is deeply connected with it. It is one
:42:20. > :42:25.of the areas where I am entitled to comment because there are so many
:42:25. > :42:33.Christians doing it and involved in it. He has got form. In a previous
:42:33. > :42:36.post he led a campaign to oppose the election of a BNP candidate.
:42:36. > :42:40.Do you have a moral imperative to speak out against government
:42:40. > :42:44.policy? Of course there was a moral imperative to speak out on behalf
:42:44. > :42:47.of people who are vulnerable and not so good at articulating things
:42:47. > :42:52.for themselves. The Church will always come along on the side of
:42:52. > :42:55.the people of those who were in the grated need. There are humanists
:42:55. > :43:00.and secularists that think the Church has no place meddling with
:43:00. > :43:03.government policy. Bishops in the House of Lords come from the Church
:43:03. > :43:08.of England and only represent the Church of England and did not the
:43:08. > :43:12.views of Islam, Hinduism and of course the many non-religious
:43:12. > :43:16.people in the country. They can comment if they like and that is up
:43:16. > :43:19.to them but to have a say in what happens in government, they should
:43:19. > :43:26.have to be elected and the public should have to choose that they be
:43:26. > :43:31.in government. Nowadays more and more people are non-religious. 10
:43:31. > :43:36.times more people watch EastEnders every week and go to church. It is
:43:36. > :43:41.really an unrepresentative portion of society. But intervene they do.
:43:41. > :43:44.Last year the Bishop of Sherborne road to council leaders asking them
:43:44. > :43:48.not to let the unprecedented levels of spending cuts affect the elderly
:43:48. > :43:53.and vulnerable. Why did you want to get involved in social policy
:43:53. > :43:57.locally? Locally the church is embedded in the community. Simon
:43:57. > :44:01.Jenkins wrote a very good article in the Guardian last year saying
:44:01. > :44:05.that there are a lot of little societies and they are mostly under
:44:05. > :44:10.spires. Most churches have been embedded in the community for
:44:10. > :44:16.centuries. When something happens the local vicar is involved with
:44:16. > :44:20.local politicians and the bishop is involved with county ones. The New
:44:20. > :44:27.Forest MP straddles both camps. He is part of David Cameron's inner
:44:27. > :44:31.circle and also a lay preacher. I am asked to preach I sweat for
:44:31. > :44:36.some time before hand. I find it much more difficult.
:44:36. > :44:43.consultation on gay marriage in a few weeks could provoke an almighty
:44:43. > :44:47.row. The Church has to recognise that it does not own marriage.
:44:47. > :44:51.Marriage predates Christianity and it is a secular institution. What
:44:51. > :44:55.the churches believe about marriage is entirely up to them. We would
:44:55. > :44:59.not dream of interfering in their belief about marriage. But there
:44:59. > :45:04.are many people who get married who do not share those beliefs and the
:45:04. > :45:10.law must address their needs. church leaders can only scrutinise,
:45:10. > :45:14.not make or shape policy, what can they contribute? It is important
:45:14. > :45:19.that there are different principles for taking part in politics as
:45:19. > :45:24.Christian leaders. One of them is that you bring a moral dimension
:45:24. > :45:33.and that includes housing and defence as well as things like
:45:33. > :45:38.abortion and divorce. They have an insight into standards and morality.
:45:38. > :45:42.I do not think they have expertise in terms of government policy.
:45:42. > :45:46.the current climate, that is not going to stop the church from
:45:46. > :45:50.trying. What is going on at the moment is that because there is an
:45:50. > :45:55.economic problem, because there is a government policy of cuts and we
:45:55. > :45:58.are into a pretty poor steered time, there is a real concern that the
:45:58. > :46:03.most vulnerable in our community are carrying a disproportionate
:46:03. > :46:07.amount of the cost of what is happening to us as a whole
:46:07. > :46:11.community. John, when you were Secretary of State for community,
:46:11. > :46:17.building cohesion, you were talking about the marginalisation of faith
:46:17. > :46:22.at that stage. You felt churches had a voice but do you think they
:46:22. > :46:26.are now having too much of a boy's? I do not think so. I think it is
:46:26. > :46:30.important that people in government respect people in faith as they
:46:30. > :46:33.respect or people in their community. It is important to
:46:33. > :46:38.understand a dissection of the population, probably a man not --
:46:38. > :46:44.probably a minority, for whom a fate shared their life more
:46:44. > :46:48.importantly than anything else. It is a voice that should be heard. I
:46:48. > :46:54.am always very clear that their views should not have a privileged
:46:54. > :46:59.position and they should not veto other people's... But they do!
:46:59. > :47:03.practice I am not sure that that is what happens. The boys should be
:47:03. > :47:06.there and it should be one of a number of voices in a democratic
:47:06. > :47:10.society but I do not agree with the hardline atheist who say they do
:47:10. > :47:14.not want to hear the voice of anybody with faith in government. I
:47:14. > :47:18.think that is shutting out the views of a very sincere section of
:47:18. > :47:24.the electorate. Would you give an equal Islamic Boys'? I think it is
:47:24. > :47:32.very important. Those thoughts were going through my mind when I
:47:32. > :47:37.listened to what John was saying. The reality is that every group in
:47:37. > :47:41.society has an entitlement to make its voice heard and the Church of
:47:41. > :47:45.England, and I must say that I come from a minority religious
:47:45. > :47:49.background myself, although I am not a terribly religious person,
:47:49. > :47:53.that every church has the right to have its voice heard and every fate
:47:53. > :47:57.has the right to have its voice heard. It does not have a right to
:47:57. > :48:02.dictate what the outcome should be. It must always remember one thing.
:48:02. > :48:06.We are operating in a democratic society where we all have
:48:06. > :48:09.institutions and access to those institutions to get those issues
:48:09. > :48:14.debated. In a dictatorship, it is more important that church leaders
:48:14. > :48:21.speak out because no one else can. Our regular round-up of the
:48:21. > :48:27.political news from the south and 60 seconds.
:48:27. > :48:32.-- in a 60 seconds. The latest wave of redundancies hit
:48:32. > :48:37.the Navy at the start of the week. Portsmouth got off lightly. It
:48:37. > :48:41.seems many sailors have already jumped ship.
:48:41. > :48:47.Bournemouth council leader was forced to walk the plank by
:48:47. > :48:52.Conservative colleagues, resigning after a vote of no confidence.
:48:52. > :48:55.Olympic rowers were pulling together on Dorney Lake in
:48:55. > :49:00.Berkshire. The security plan was released on Wednesday with the
:49:00. > :49:04.biggest police operation the county has ever seen. Perhaps that is
:49:04. > :49:09.something that could be recorded in a museum of Berkshire life.
:49:09. > :49:13.The Bracknell MP is looking for cultural input into his town's
:49:13. > :49:18.redevelopment. I think feeding the soul is just as important as be in
:49:18. > :49:24.the stomach. He would appreciate the problems archives, letters and
:49:24. > :49:29.photos of India left to the nation's instead of paying
:49:29. > :49:34.inheritance tax. Sorry George Osborne, we will enjoy them.
:49:34. > :49:38.Inheritance tax, that is a tricky subject. John, do you think that
:49:38. > :49:42.there may be a change on her rise and there with Conservatives in
:49:42. > :49:46.government? I do not think it should be a priority of this
:49:46. > :49:50.government to hand out money to people who get more than �1 million
:49:50. > :49:54.when so many people are struggling. Do you think they would like to?
:49:54. > :49:58.know that they would. Their instincts are always towards the
:49:58. > :50:02.best off in the society to project that -- protect the majority. But
:50:02. > :50:06.they would be ill-advised to go down that route with so many people
:50:06. > :50:09.with a lot less money being so up against it. We made changes in
:50:09. > :50:12.government that made the system fairer and covered most people who
:50:12. > :50:17.had bought their own home through their own efforts who thought they
:50:17. > :50:22.were being penalised through the system but I do not think there was
:50:22. > :50:27.a case for pushing it further. is your take? I seem to remember it
:50:27. > :50:33.was a pledge by George Osborne to raise the threshold for inheritance
:50:33. > :50:37.tax that frightens the a Labour Party so Gordon Brown would not go
:50:37. > :50:41.to the country. It would be a popular move. The moment we can
:50:41. > :50:47.afford it I would like to see it happen. What I would also like to
:50:47. > :50:52.see his the Government being willing to take something that is a
:50:52. > :50:57.valuable to the whole nation in low of inheritance tax because then we
:50:57. > :51:01.can take the benefit of that Herr - - history. Thank you very much for