:01:29. > :01:32.And in the South: The local government pension scheme
:01:32. > :01:42.was already a hot potato even before a pressure group claimed it
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :29:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1677 seconds
:29:40. > :29:42.Welcome to Sunday Politics South. On today's show: The local
:29:42. > :29:47.government pension scheme was already a hot potato even before a
:29:47. > :29:50.pressure group claimed it is facing a massive deficit. We will hear
:29:50. > :29:54.from the unlikely bedfellows of a union organiser and a Conservative
:29:54. > :29:58.council leader as to why they think that is wrong.
:29:58. > :30:01.More on that later. First, though, let's meet the two politicians who
:30:01. > :30:04.will be with me for the next 20 minutes. Lord Chidgey was the
:30:04. > :30:07.Liberal Democrat MP for Eastleigh for 11 years until the 2005
:30:07. > :30:17.election. And Tobias Ellwood is the Conservative MP for Bournemouth
:30:17. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:24.East. Will you work closely read Jeremy Hunt. I was the shadow
:30:24. > :30:29.tourism minister in that time. is in a difficult position. How
:30:29. > :30:33.well his character stand up to it? He is valued as a member of the
:30:33. > :30:38.Cabinet and gave a great performance in the Commons making a
:30:38. > :30:43.statement. He has provided more information today and has said that
:30:43. > :30:52.he will come forward to discuss this. This is something the media
:30:52. > :31:02.is focusing on just now. It is a lot of pressure on an individual.
:31:02. > :31:06.Yes, I think he can. I think it will be interesting to see what
:31:06. > :31:12.relationship the wars between the special adviser and Jeremy Hunt. We
:31:12. > :31:18.all want to have the facility of special advisers helping us, but
:31:18. > :31:25.what exactly is their role and how far can they go? A lot of Lib Dems
:31:25. > :31:30.are upset about this. As there is as semi-private world in government,
:31:30. > :31:36.if I may say now that I am experiencing it, were you have the
:31:36. > :31:45.money and resources to pay people to be a special advisers. I think
:31:45. > :31:51.this becomes a rather closed world. There is more transparency? With
:31:51. > :31:57.every single decision that had to be made by Jeremy Hunt, he took the
:31:57. > :32:01.advice of independent advisers. It is the Cabinet member who makes the
:32:01. > :32:06.decisions. He has been very clear about that.
:32:06. > :32:08.It is the local elections on Thursday. If you were watching the
:32:08. > :32:11.programme last week, we were talking to the UK Independence
:32:11. > :32:14.Party about their electoral chances. This week we are talking to the
:32:14. > :32:19.Greens. Caroline Lucas, the party leader and MP for Brighton Pavilion,
:32:19. > :32:24.joins us now from our Brighton studio. No election in Brighton
:32:24. > :32:31.this year, but you're putting candidates up in other places in
:32:31. > :32:37.the South? We are. A quarter of seats nationwide have candidates
:32:38. > :32:43.from the Green Party. We're looking at Reading where we have two Green
:32:43. > :32:47.members. Also other places per we want a stronger foothold across the
:32:47. > :32:52.South East. So much of the debate is about the economy. Green
:32:52. > :32:56.candidates will be talking about spending more taxpayers' money.
:32:56. > :33:03.They will say that bike investing in the Green economy, you can
:33:03. > :33:12.create jobs. Want to promote insulation and people's homes. End
:33:12. > :33:18.in Kirklees, we had a scheme where insulation was rolled out across
:33:19. > :33:24.60,000 homes. That created jobs and helped people. It is all about
:33:24. > :33:29.subsidy and public spending. The public is not in a mood to hear
:33:29. > :33:34.that. I think the public does want to you about how they can save
:33:34. > :33:39.money in their bills. As people have an interest in Green issues
:33:39. > :33:46.and we can create jobs. There was a survey this week saying that people
:33:46. > :33:52.are less interested in politics than in the last 10 years. Can you
:33:52. > :33:57.capitalise on that disenchantment? There is a huge potential. There is
:33:57. > :34:02.a disillusionment with the three main parties. They are increasingly
:34:02. > :34:05.indistinguishable. That is worse with a coalition government. People
:34:05. > :34:11.are looking for a stronger alternative, so when you have a
:34:11. > :34:15.party that is nationally in tune with public opinion when it comes
:34:15. > :34:20.to challenging the privatisation of public services and renewing
:34:20. > :34:24.nuclear weapons, the Greens are more in tune with public opinion,
:34:24. > :34:27.and what we are finding is that once they get at first Green
:34:27. > :34:37.councillor on the council, the light get and they want more of
:34:37. > :34:40.
:34:40. > :34:46.some. -- more of them. You are indistinguishable in government and
:34:46. > :34:51.it is turning people off. To hear this accusation is very interesting.
:34:51. > :34:55.There are huge differences in where become from from a party
:34:56. > :34:59.perspective. We have had to come together because of the mess the
:34:59. > :35:05.last Labour government left us in. That is why we have been called
:35:05. > :35:10.upon to sort out the deficit. Clearly there will -- there will be
:35:10. > :35:20.some overlap between the three parties. We are succeeding in
:35:20. > :35:26.
:35:26. > :35:28.getting the country back on that its feet. As you know, I am a
:35:28. > :35:36.Shadow Minister for International Development end their Foreign
:35:36. > :35:44.Office in Africa and I meet their ministers every week. It is no easy
:35:44. > :35:49.ride in Cabinet. When there is disagreement, it is rough. It is
:35:49. > :35:55.not a nice cosy tea party, it is a very robust and often volatile
:35:55. > :35:58.political discussion of argument. You are for getting the result of
:35:58. > :36:03.the last general election. There was not a clear winner so there is
:36:03. > :36:07.not a mandate for any single party to do any single thing. Therefore
:36:07. > :36:13.there is a requirement for two parties to morph together for a
:36:13. > :36:23.period to meet the challenges of the day. Was that a mid-term
:36:23. > :36:27.protest? I think people who voted Liberal Democrat are very upset.
:36:27. > :36:34.When you see at Lib Dems especially -- essentially selling out over
:36:34. > :36:44.tuition fees and the NHS, they thought they were getting a radical
:36:44. > :36:46.
:36:46. > :36:49.alternative. Can I say something about the economy? But if you vote
:36:49. > :36:56.for the Greens, you might take away some of the votes for one of the
:36:56. > :37:00.bigger parties. Labour first introduced tuition fees. You are
:37:00. > :37:07.exactly demonstrating the critiques that so many people have of this
:37:07. > :37:16.tea-parties from outside of Westminster. Can I say something
:37:16. > :37:19.about the cuts? I wanted to say that there is an absolute consensus
:37:19. > :37:24.with the three main parties at the best way of tackling the deficit is
:37:24. > :37:29.to cut more and more. If Government starts to stop spending, that gets
:37:29. > :37:38.us into a worse recession, as we can see with this at double-dip
:37:38. > :37:42.recession. We need to spend money and grow. If we use the money of
:37:42. > :37:45.quantitative easing to invest in jobs, that is how you get out of
:37:45. > :37:48.recession. One of the biggest points of
:37:48. > :37:51.friction between the Government and public sector workers is over their
:37:51. > :37:53.pensions. The Government reckons there need to be changes to cut
:37:53. > :37:56.costs, the unions, not surprisingly, are resisting that vigorously. But
:37:56. > :37:59.now a pressure group has waded into the row to claim that councils
:37:59. > :38:08.across the country are facing deficits of millions of pounds each
:38:09. > :38:13.on the local government pension scheme.
:38:13. > :38:18.With just over 5 million members, the local government pension scheme
:38:18. > :38:25.is one of the largest of its kind in the country. It is made up of
:38:25. > :38:29.100 funds independently managed by its representatives from that
:38:29. > :38:33.theory are. Sounds as safe as houses, but not according to the
:38:33. > :38:39.TaxPayers' Alliance. Pension reform has been a political hot potato for
:38:39. > :38:45.some time. With talk of gold-plated retirement for public sector
:38:45. > :38:53.workers while an increasing number of private sector companies close
:38:53. > :39:00.their final salary pension schemes. Now a black hole of �54 billion has
:39:00. > :39:06.been found by the TaxPayers' Alliance. While the assets they are
:39:06. > :39:13.holding might rise, it looks as though there is a genuine gap which
:39:13. > :39:18.cannot be filled by yet more burdens on taxpayers as council tax
:39:18. > :39:22.payers are already paying more than enough for. In the South, report
:39:22. > :39:29.claims that the pension scheme for Dorset County Council has a deficit
:39:29. > :39:35.of just over �300 million. Hampshire County Council has the
:39:35. > :39:39.third highest deficit all local authorities. �700 million. Just how
:39:39. > :39:46.worried should we really be about this warning from the TaxPayers'
:39:46. > :39:55.Alliance? It is rather like saying to someone with a mortgage that you
:39:55. > :40:03.have a black hole in your bank account of �100,000. In fact, he or
:40:03. > :40:09.she has 25 years in which to pay off that �100,000 mortgage. So it
:40:09. > :40:14.is an unfair snapshot and I do wish the TaxPayers' Alliance would stop
:40:14. > :40:19.being so sensational about this. Local government pension schemes
:40:19. > :40:25.are very important to very many people, including the council tax
:40:25. > :40:31.payer. Hampshire County Council says it is just a calculation made
:40:31. > :40:36.on paper by accountants. Unions are equally frustrated. They say the
:40:36. > :40:42.TaxPayers' Alliance need to get its facts straight. If you look at the
:40:42. > :40:47.Hampshire pension scheme, it is �16 million in profit and has �4
:40:47. > :40:54.million in assets. This is not a pension scheme in problem. But they
:40:54. > :41:00.ignore these facts and start to make up their own. No one -- not
:41:00. > :41:06.everyone will retire on the same day. We saw some financial advice.
:41:06. > :41:10.I don't think anybody should be scared. This is of concern. If it
:41:10. > :41:14.was just one county council that had a deficit, you should be
:41:14. > :41:20.worried. The simple fact is most pension schemes are in deficit at
:41:20. > :41:25.the present time and that the stock market moves out of recession or
:41:25. > :41:30.the diptych is in, the deficits will start to be reduced. I don't
:41:30. > :41:38.think there is anything particularly to worry about -- the
:41:38. > :41:45.debt it is in. We are all living longer and pensions must reflect
:41:46. > :41:51.this. If we want to maintain its generous public sector pensions,
:41:51. > :42:00.for more generous than most people in the private-sector, then we're
:42:00. > :42:07.going to have to see those workers paying more for them. We will put a
:42:07. > :42:12.proposal to Our members later in the year. It might include people
:42:12. > :42:15.working longer and paying more money into pensions. We don't need
:42:15. > :42:20.the TaxPayers' Alliance putting out bogus report and sticking their
:42:20. > :42:26.nose in just because they don't want the scheme to exist at all.
:42:27. > :42:31.toxic issue which has already led to industrial action. Where do you
:42:31. > :42:36.stand? I spoke to the Local Government Association before the
:42:36. > :42:40.programme because this is complicated. There are 100
:42:40. > :42:50.government pension schemes across the country. On balance, schemes
:42:50. > :42:52.
:42:52. > :43:02.are in profit. Is this like having a mortgage? It is. The whole point
:43:02. > :43:03.
:43:03. > :43:11.is that over the last 12 months, 54 billion was the total claimed the
:43:11. > :43:17.scheme was a in deficit, but 37 billion has been accrued through it
:43:17. > :43:22.rises in the stock market. In one year, 37 billion has been paid in.
:43:22. > :43:28.They are saying there is a 54 billion deficit over all. It won't
:43:28. > :43:33.take long to get back in balance. We must protect the pensions of the
:43:33. > :43:36.lower paid. They are vulnerable and we have to be fair and make choices
:43:36. > :43:44.to have some flexibility on how we deal with them. Those are the real
:43:44. > :43:49.issues. I find myself in agreement with the trade union on that point.
:43:49. > :43:58.This is a snapshot of the financial affairs right now. Those pension
:43:58. > :44:02.schemes have not matured and so you cannot take the sums as they are.
:44:02. > :44:06.Had the TaxPayers' Alliance spoken to Bournemouth Borough Council,
:44:06. > :44:12.they would have got a more complete picture of the state of affairs
:44:12. > :44:16.rather than this snapshot. George Osborne and this Government is
:44:16. > :44:24.taking robust action because it was John Prescott who avoided this
:44:24. > :44:31.issue because he is so close to the unions. In 1997, the cost to the
:44:32. > :44:37.taxpayer of all these council pensions was �2 billion. That has
:44:37. > :44:44.now raised to 6 billion. We cannot go on like this. People are living
:44:44. > :44:50.10 years longer than they were a few decades ago. This will hurt the
:44:50. > :44:58.low paid. We will not. The new system that comes and will not
:44:58. > :45:06.affect people earning less than 21,000. It is rated so that people
:45:06. > :45:14.on large salaries, such as those who lead unions, will take a big
:45:14. > :45:18.hit. We have introduced these tough decisions, as well as increasing
:45:18. > :45:27.the age of retirement. Now our regular round-up of the
:45:27. > :45:30.political week in the South in 60 seconds.
:45:31. > :45:36.The Labour leader Ed Miliband kicked off the week with a visit to
:45:36. > :45:42.Reading ahead of the local elections. At Leek Town College,
:45:42. > :45:47.students turned out to hear him declare yet unemployment a massive
:45:47. > :45:54.emergency. British Gas cut 550 jobs at a Southampton call centre.
:45:54. > :46:01.Everyone was crying. I might never work again. At the with HSBC,
:46:01. > :46:06.Zurich Insurance and other companies, total job losses in the
:46:06. > :46:11.South came to 1,500. He Employment Minister tried to offer some
:46:11. > :46:18.reassurance. There are opportunities for people who need
:46:18. > :46:22.to get back into work. It has been a gloomy week. To cheer us up, the
:46:22. > :46:32.children of the school had a positive attitude to their new ball
:46:32. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:43.at -- solar panels. It might not be sunny, but we will still get energy.
:46:43. > :46:45.
:46:45. > :46:50.Everyone in the collision -- the coalition must be concerned.
:46:50. > :46:53.have just had a drop in unemployment. There is an increase
:46:53. > :47:01.in the number of people in the private sector which is
:47:01. > :47:07.compensating for the loss of jobs in the public sector. More people
:47:07. > :47:13.have come into the private sector than those who have lost their jobs
:47:13. > :47:17.in the public sector. Will people be feeling good about what
:47:17. > :47:21.Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have done with that economy? There
:47:21. > :47:28.is a long haul here and we have more to do to move the economy
:47:28. > :47:35.forward. We should be careful about opinion polls now. I remember the
:47:35. > :47:45.1980s and 1990s when Neil Kinnock got 50% poll ratings from --
:47:45. > :47:47.
:47:47. > :47:57.ratings. Yet he did not win. remember the St p b n on 45%. But
:47:57. > :48:01.
:48:01. > :48:07.then we had a war in the Falkland Isles. -- the SDP. There was also
:48:07. > :48:15.Margaret Thatcher. I have been through several recessions and it
:48:15. > :48:23.is not easy. I have seen one million people long-term unemployed
:48:23. > :48:33.over one year. 25% unemployment in Spain just now. We must not make
:48:33. > :48:36.
:48:36. > :48:43.the mistakes of the past. We have to invest in training and skills.
:48:43. > :48:47.Our present workforce is a badly under skilled. It is all very well
:48:47. > :48:52.having apprenticeship schemes, but they have to be properly designed
:48:52. > :49:02.so that people can compete worldwide. Financial services are
:49:02. > :49:06.
:49:06. > :49:10.no answer. You are always optimistic. We have a worse deficit
:49:10. > :49:15.than Spain and look at their unemployment rate. Our unemployment
:49:16. > :49:25.levels are dropping. Their situation -- our situation was
:49:26. > :49:28.
:49:28. > :49:32.worse than their us in 2008. their's.
:49:32. > :49:34.That is the Sunday Politics in the South. Thanks to my guests, Lord
:49:34. > :49:38.Chidgey and Tobias Ellwood. There will be coverage of the local