:01:30. > :01:32.In the South: We'll be talking to one of the
:01:32. > :01:35.independents elected as a new Police and Crime Commissioner.
:01:35. > :01:45.And is the business rate rebate that charity shops get damaging to
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :41:25.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2380 seconds
:41:26. > :41:28.Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley. On today's
:41:28. > :41:31.programme: There are more charity shops on our
:41:31. > :41:38.high streets than ever before, but is that because the rebate they get
:41:38. > :41:40.on their business rates is unfair competition for other retailers?
:41:40. > :41:42.And we'll be interviewing under caution the new Police and Crime
:41:42. > :41:45.Commissioner for Dorset. All that in a moment.
:41:45. > :41:48.First though, let's meet the two politicians who'll be with me for
:41:48. > :41:58.the next 20 minutes - Caroline Dinenage is the Conservative MP for
:41:58. > :41:58.
:41:58. > :42:02.Gosport and John Denham is the Labour MP for Southampton Itchen.
:42:02. > :42:06.The teacher or a warship building in Portsmouth, Caroline, is
:42:06. > :42:10.something that is in the papers again. Vince Cable says this is not
:42:10. > :42:16.a run of this order that was hoped for. Is it a difficult period
:42:16. > :42:21.ahead? It is a massive concern. It is responsible for a lot of jobs in
:42:21. > :42:25.that area, not just in shipbuilding but also in the wider supply chain.
:42:25. > :42:28.It is something that we will really have to look at. If it is it time
:42:28. > :42:38.to look at alternatives to this order ought to lobby to try to get
:42:38. > :42:39.
:42:39. > :42:42.it? I think both. I think we need to work in really had to bring in
:42:42. > :42:47.work from overseas to try and fill this short fall in between this and
:42:47. > :42:51.the future combat ships. Is that going to happen, do you think,
:42:51. > :42:57.John? Her we're going to make every effort to because the significance
:42:57. > :43:00.of the company is much wider than the shipbuilding. It is the central
:43:00. > :43:05.base for Advanced Engineering skills, for working with modern
:43:05. > :43:09.technology and materials. So if you use it, you were not just losing
:43:09. > :43:13.one company but a company that is effectively supporting a huge chunk
:43:13. > :43:16.of our manufacturing industry, so we have got to get everybody
:43:16. > :43:21.together and say that the Government needs to do something.
:43:21. > :43:25.If you lose it, you will never get it back. It is worth the Government
:43:26. > :43:31.making an effort here. Why do Royal Navy ships have to be built in
:43:31. > :43:36.England? With Scottish independence, up the alternative is Scotland. Why
:43:36. > :43:39.not let the market sort itself out. The argument then is that you're
:43:39. > :43:43.going to buy everything from overseas. This Government has
:43:43. > :43:47.started to do that with the armed forces in general and that is a
:43:47. > :43:52.mistake. Not only do we lose those skilled jobs, there are only a
:43:52. > :43:56.million people working in skilled jobs in defence skills in this
:43:56. > :43:59.country, secondly someone else is controlling the technology. Someone
:43:59. > :44:03.will be selling you the second best because they keep the best for
:44:03. > :44:08.themselves. Any country that is going to have a credible armed
:44:08. > :44:13.forces has got to have an -- has got to have a defence industry to
:44:13. > :44:16.support it. You have the enterprise zone in Gosport, but it will be
:44:16. > :44:20.very difficult in the current climate to make up all those jobs.
:44:20. > :44:26.If it is an enormous amount of jobs. We have to look at it very
:44:26. > :44:29.carefully. It does not threaten the naval base or the dockyard, it is
:44:29. > :44:32.the shipbuilding jobs but that is still massive.
:44:32. > :44:34.So, after all the millions of pounds, and trailing accusations of
:44:34. > :44:37.voter apathy, the lowest turnout in British electoral history
:44:37. > :44:41.apparently - we now know who the 41 Police and Crime Commissioners will
:44:41. > :44:51.be. We had six force areas up for grabs in our region - here's Steve
:44:51. > :44:52.
:44:52. > :44:57.Humphrey with a run down of who won The result in Dorset was one of the
:44:57. > :45:05.first big surprises on Friday. Independent Martin under help was
:45:05. > :45:08.declared the winner. -- Martyn Underhill. The Conservative
:45:08. > :45:13.candidate finished second, he left before the final result was
:45:13. > :45:17.declared. There was another victory for an independent candidate in
:45:17. > :45:22.Hampshire, with Simon his beating the Conservative former Government
:45:22. > :45:25.minister in the second round of counting. He is the chairman of the
:45:25. > :45:32.Crimestoppers charity in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight and a former
:45:32. > :45:36.Conservative councillor. We did not expect to win. I think the message
:45:36. > :45:41.that are put across, that we were independent from party-political
:45:41. > :45:46.politics, was a strong message. person who won the selection was a
:45:46. > :45:51.paid-up member of my party until this year. I am a Conservative, I
:45:51. > :45:55.am proud to be a conservative, I will never change my colours.
:45:55. > :46:00.Independent candidates notched up a hat-trick of winners in this region
:46:00. > :46:05.went Kevin Hurley won the election in Surrey. Conservative to the
:46:05. > :46:10.Isles was the runner up. The region's biggest police force,
:46:10. > :46:14.Thames Valley, will have a conservative as commissioner. The
:46:14. > :46:19.Labour candidate came second. think it is a matter of leadership.
:46:19. > :46:25.Everyone needs to be absolute clear that what you require is to reduce
:46:25. > :46:30.crime. In Sussex, Conservative Katie Brawn has been at announced
:46:30. > :46:35.winner. She was the National winner of the Conservative Women's
:46:35. > :46:39.Association. The Labour candidate came second. I want people that are
:46:39. > :46:42.causing problems in society, that are causing upsets in our
:46:42. > :46:47.communities, I want them to know that they're going to be dealt with.
:46:47. > :46:52.It is time we started pitch victims first. It was perhaps appropriate
:46:52. > :46:58.that will to police should be the very first to find out who would be
:46:58. > :47:02.their new commissioner. Just before 5am on Friday, Conservative Angus
:47:02. > :47:05.MacPherson was declared winner. Labour came second.
:47:05. > :47:13.And I'm joined now by one of those surprise winning independents,
:47:13. > :47:18.Martyn Underhill, who's the newly minted PCC for Dorset.
:47:19. > :47:23.What for people what it -- voting for? My direct Line was to keep
:47:23. > :47:27.party politics out of policing. When you are handling public money
:47:27. > :47:31.you cannot keep politics out of policing, but I wanted to have a
:47:31. > :47:34.platform of taking party politics out. We do not want people in
:47:35. > :47:39.Westminster telling us what to do with our police force. In an
:47:39. > :47:42.election with all sorts of problems... I would agree with that.
:47:42. > :47:48.The important thing to remember is that I have got a mandate across
:47:48. > :47:58.all eight areas of Dorset. I think the actual lesser -- actual
:47:58. > :48:01.
:48:01. > :48:03.election was a shambles. You spent a lot of money? You went in with a
:48:03. > :48:10.manifesto before the others, campaigning for a long time. You
:48:10. > :48:17.have not said who has campaigned for your campaign few --. I have.
:48:17. > :48:21.The cosmetics company lush. They entirely funded a campaign? In not
:48:21. > :48:30.entirely, I had help in kind and donations from the company, but
:48:30. > :48:33.most of it was from A lash. They feel very strongly about crime.
:48:33. > :48:39.will they want something back for the money they have invested?
:48:39. > :48:43.they will not. There were no strings involved. At the end of the
:48:43. > :48:48.day, rural crime is a big issue for Dorset. It is not about whether a
:48:48. > :48:54.lush are supporting the are not, I need to look at the rural crime
:48:54. > :48:57.issued. He made a lot of promises during that campaign. Disbanding
:48:57. > :49:05.the marine section. You have said he will stop that. Will you stop
:49:05. > :49:12.that? Yes I well. Doubling the number of specials. Yes. At tablet
:49:12. > :49:15.for every officer and PC Esso? I am going to do that. And you will
:49:15. > :49:19.be purchasing the two boats for the mid- been sectioned to stop the
:49:19. > :49:22.disbanding? This sounds like operational stuff. You do not have
:49:22. > :49:29.achieved Constable, will you just be running the chief constable with
:49:29. > :49:32.strings from the side of us? Not at all. My manifesto does run-up to
:49:32. > :49:36.operational policing. The reason I have the upper -- the opportunity
:49:36. > :49:41.to do that is because we do not have a chief constable. When I hire
:49:41. > :49:47.one who shares my vision, I can enhance those duties to him or her.
:49:47. > :49:52.You're only going a hire someone who sounds up to a manifesto?
:49:52. > :49:57.is common sense. And presumably what the public wanted, even the 93
:49:57. > :50:04.% of them did not old. It does bother me. The election turnout was
:50:04. > :50:07.appalling. But I will not have that said that is his lack of interest
:50:07. > :50:13.in Police and Crime Commissioner us. The electorate did vote and I have
:50:13. > :50:18.a clear mandate across the whole of Dorset. My manifesto is commonsense,
:50:18. > :50:25.making Dorset safe. This gives the public a voice for the first time.
:50:25. > :50:28.They have someone they can go to. am sure going to set up community
:50:29. > :50:34.forums and all these other things, these are going to cost a lot of
:50:34. > :50:40.money. As an independent, you have known lever with Government or
:50:40. > :50:43.opposition parties. Can you do it within budget? With 12 independence,
:50:44. > :50:48.we had a very strong a political lobby it to Government. Those
:50:48. > :50:53.independents will be knocking on the door of Government. Will you be
:50:53. > :50:58.asking for money? All I will say is I want a fair slice of the pie.
:50:58. > :51:04.Dorset is the least funded force in the country. We are facing 25 %
:51:04. > :51:11.cuts. But some of the metropolitan areas are getting too much and
:51:11. > :51:19.rural areas like ourselves are not getting. I have already positioned
:51:19. > :51:23.to ten Downing Street about that and I will be back there now.
:51:23. > :51:29.people didn't want politicians. Didn't want Conservative or Labour.
:51:29. > :51:34.Is that a bad thing? congratulations. But this was a
:51:34. > :51:38.shambles, as he said. �100 million was spent on the election and it
:51:38. > :51:45.wasn't... Are the overwhelming feeling on the doorstep was that
:51:45. > :51:49.people were angry. They had insufficient information. So you
:51:49. > :51:53.would have spent �25 million on a new leaflet? I would not have had
:51:53. > :51:57.an election in November. You would have saved virtually all that money
:51:57. > :52:01.by having the election in May with local governments. You could have
:52:01. > :52:06.saved money there. It needed to be better explained. I do not think
:52:07. > :52:10.the idea was a good one. We did oppose it, we took part when they
:52:10. > :52:15.were called in Parliament. But actually we would have rather had
:52:15. > :52:21.improved scrutiny without the cost. You have an independent in Dorset
:52:21. > :52:26.and one in Hampshire, although one was a long track record as a party
:52:26. > :52:29.politician, but I bigger is a real danger of confusing party politics
:52:29. > :52:32.and policing in no way that we will see happened up and down the
:52:32. > :52:36.country and it would have been better not to go down this road.
:52:36. > :52:40.But if you are going to do it, do it properly and give the public for
:52:40. > :52:47.the information they need. Do not voted through and then really do
:52:47. > :52:53.nothing. Caroline, you had an open primary venue was elected as MP
:52:53. > :52:57.after the expenses scandal. This looks like a sort of rejection of
:52:58. > :53:01.the democratically run, transparent political parties. Do you see it as
:53:01. > :53:07.good that we have had these elections would you see it as
:53:07. > :53:13.dangerous. I think it is great. It depoliticise as the police and to
:53:13. > :53:17.deliver us... The fact that it has delivered independence, some of
:53:17. > :53:21.whom have political affiliations in part but are independent, many of
:53:21. > :53:26.them are solidly local at have a proven track record in the field. I
:53:26. > :53:30.think that is a good thing. Whatever is said about the way that
:53:30. > :53:35.the election was conducted, there are positive that we have to take
:53:35. > :53:39.out of this. The fact is that whoever is elected is in many, many
:53:39. > :53:43.ways much more democratically chosen by the public than the
:53:43. > :53:48.police authorities that they replace. I think the proof of this
:53:48. > :53:52.court whether this money has been well spent, will be in five years'
:53:52. > :53:57.time when people can judge whether it be a crime has gone down and
:53:57. > :54:02.whether they feel safer in their environment. And, Martyn Underhill,
:54:02. > :54:06.you feel that within this crime -- time film you will feel that you
:54:06. > :54:14.can meet these commitments? I will have to have met all of these
:54:14. > :54:17.commitments. These are long-term strategies. You should be seeing a
:54:17. > :54:22.significant difference in three and a happy years. We will get you back
:54:22. > :54:26.it smacks I am sure you will. The number of charity shops on the
:54:26. > :54:29.high street is supposed to be a barometer of retail health. But did
:54:29. > :54:32.you know that they get a very generous rebate on their business
:54:32. > :54:34.rates? As much as 80%, which makes them tough competition for
:54:34. > :54:37.businesses that are paying the full whack. The Welsh assembly is
:54:37. > :54:41.thinking about cutting down that rebate and, as Paul Greer reports,
:54:41. > :54:49.there are plenty in the south of England who reckon that would be a
:54:49. > :54:53.good idea here. Tickle walked out your local high
:54:53. > :54:59.street and there are some things you would expect to see. But ponder
:54:59. > :55:06.this. For every cafe new rule out there, but there are now 18 charity
:55:06. > :55:10.shops. -- for every cafe, there are 18 charity shops. They really are
:55:10. > :55:14.everywhere. It is boom time for her charity
:55:14. > :55:18.shops. There are now around 9,000 of them on the high streets and
:55:18. > :55:22.wily ways of the 200 million each year for good causes, there are
:55:22. > :55:26.growing concerns that they are beginning to take over. The mayor
:55:26. > :55:30.of Romsey says she is not against charity shops but she says other
:55:30. > :55:37.traders are finding it impossible to compete. They get their stock
:55:37. > :55:42.given freely, most of the time, and the use volunteer labour. So there
:55:42. > :55:48.really do not have a problem with too many expenses. And of course
:55:48. > :55:52.now, they have gone into new goods. Probably the shop along the road is
:55:52. > :55:57.selling those as well but with all the add-ons that charity shops do
:55:57. > :56:03.not have. And you think that is unfair competition? It is very
:56:03. > :56:09.unfair. But what do shoppers think? You what a better variety of shops.
:56:09. > :56:15.We have not got a men's shop or a teenager is a shop. You have to go
:56:15. > :56:21.to ASDA or somewhere like that. is bad, I think. It fills what ever
:56:21. > :56:24.the natural demand has. Mark it forces? Basically, yes. If people
:56:24. > :56:32.want charity shops then they will survive and if they do not been
:56:33. > :56:37.they will not. We need people who need to set up business. That is
:56:37. > :56:43.for growth in the economy is going to come from. There are too many in
:56:43. > :56:48.this town. You can have a few, by all means, because they're doing a
:56:48. > :56:53.good cause, but ten is way too many. In Southampton, charity store now
:56:53. > :56:57.that fill many of the best spots on the high street. The argument has
:56:57. > :57:02.gone that without them shops would be empty. Some traders insist they
:57:02. > :57:10.cannot get a look-in when they're against a charity. Gaping hardly
:57:10. > :57:16.any rates. The only pay about 20 % of their rates. They are bigger and
:57:16. > :57:20.they have more money than we have. I went for another shop five years
:57:20. > :57:24.ago and I was told that because we were not worth as much as the
:57:24. > :57:30.charity shop we were not a safe bet and they gave them the shop. That
:57:30. > :57:33.was unfair. If the idea floated by the Welsh Assembly to cut the rate
:57:34. > :57:40.relief that charity shops enjoy down at 250 % was adopted across
:57:40. > :57:44.the UK, it could cost charities �40 million. It would have a
:57:44. > :57:49.devastating effect on charities at a time that the rate of donations
:57:49. > :57:54.to charities has fallen significantly. Charity shops are
:57:54. > :58:03.now actually saving council's money because they take so many textiles
:58:03. > :58:07.out of the waste tree. If councils had to pay the landfill tax for the
:58:07. > :58:11.textiles that charity shops sell it would cost them millions of pounds.
:58:11. > :58:15.The Welsh Assembly cannot make any changes to business rate relief
:58:15. > :58:20.that charity shops enjoy it without Westminster's say-so. Cue the
:58:20. > :58:25.lobbyists. Those lobbyists will be heading to
:58:25. > :58:29.Westminster. Caroline, you run your own business
:58:29. > :58:33.before you went into Parliament and to know the costs involved. Do you
:58:33. > :58:38.think there is an element of unfair competition? It is a really tricky
:58:38. > :58:45.one because we all recognise that charity shops raised so much money
:58:45. > :58:48.for good causes that save the public purse in the long run but
:58:48. > :58:53.their overheads are so much law and in many cases their selling new
:58:53. > :58:56.goods and I think that is the issue. This is all compounded by the fact
:58:57. > :59:02.that the last Labour Government introduced business rates on vacant
:59:02. > :59:06.properties. There is this kind of perverse incentives for landlords
:59:06. > :59:15.to let charity shops have their places for three and sometimes even
:59:15. > :59:19.pay them. So it is sure she thought, John? Nothing is worse than a high
:59:19. > :59:21.street full of empty shops. I actually do not want to hammer the
:59:21. > :59:25.charities because they're having their grants cut by Government and
:59:25. > :59:31.they have to make money somehow but I think there are a lot of issues
:59:31. > :59:35.to do with a High Street. I think local authorities should have more
:59:35. > :59:39.powers around local business rates. In that film, are sold lots of
:59:39. > :59:44.bookmakers shops and they have very high stake gambling machines which
:59:44. > :59:52.is increasing the number of bookmakers in our high streets.
:59:52. > :59:57.Some coffee shops do not pay any tax. They have organised their
:59:57. > :00:02.affairs not to pay tax in this country. You have got Amazon, an
:00:02. > :00:05.American company... For let us not get distracted. If you want
:00:05. > :00:10.fairness on the High Street, you have got to tackle those retailers
:00:11. > :00:15.that do not pay tax. You have to deal with the spread of bookmakers
:00:15. > :00:21.and you have to have flexibility or local authorities. You have to have
:00:21. > :00:25.a cut in VAT and national insurance for small employers. It sounds like
:00:25. > :00:29.a lot of interference in the market. I think it is about putting the
:00:29. > :00:34.power back into the hands of local people as to how their towns are
:00:34. > :00:38.run. Should they be allowed to have a go at it because? I think
:00:38. > :00:41.bookmakers, charity shops, they all have a part to play in a High
:00:41. > :00:45.Street but I think it should be about the local council to say how
:00:45. > :00:48.many of each type of the tiller is in each high-street in order to
:00:48. > :00:51.bring the life blood back into our town centres.
:00:52. > :01:01.Now our regular round-up of the political week in the South in 60
:01:01. > :01:06.seconds. The week started with wider link
:01:06. > :01:12.fell it -- ferries accused of piracy for cutting services after 9
:01:12. > :01:18.o'clock. The local MP and reached for his cutlass. This is a lifeline
:01:18. > :01:24.service. It was full head for Berkshire trains as a minister told
:01:24. > :01:28.MPs he was looking into extra a rectifications. They were rowing
:01:28. > :01:34.back from would power as there were plans for a biomass power station
:01:34. > :01:43.in Hampshire were put -- in Southampton were put on hold.
:01:43. > :01:46.Also threw overboard, a possible regional pay deal for NHS staff.
:01:46. > :01:53.Meanwhile, the Transport Select Committee were forcing ministers to
:01:53. > :01:59.walk the plank, backing one MP's fight to keep rescue helicopters --
:01:59. > :02:09.rescue helicopters in Portland. And a volunteer crew were catching
:02:09. > :02:13.
:02:13. > :02:18.speeding motorists. This says a's answer to Jacques
:02:18. > :02:21.Barrar right here! Let us talk about prisoners. We had
:02:21. > :02:28.debate earlier in the programme about the vote and you two are
:02:28. > :02:32.going to have to make some decisions. John, would you be
:02:32. > :02:36.prepared to give prisoners the vote in some circumstances? I do not
:02:36. > :02:41.want us to break from the European Convention on Human Rights, so I
:02:41. > :02:45.will go for the lowest possible voting rights. I do not want a
:02:45. > :02:48.general extension, I would rather have none, but if the only way
:02:48. > :02:52.forward to avoid does it with -- a boy does breaking with every
:02:52. > :02:59.European country then I will go for the six months of that is what is
:02:59. > :03:01.on offer. I am ready for a fight on this. I really think that the
:03:02. > :03:08.decision over who is allowed to vote for British laws should be in
:03:08. > :03:12.the hands of British people. If you vote that way, you will be praying
:03:12. > :03:15.-- paying compensation to prisoners. I think we have to fight is to the
:03:16. > :03:20.bitter end because it is so wrong it makes me sick to my stomach, to
:03:20. > :03:24.think they should be allowed to vote. I have sympathy with that but
:03:24. > :03:28.the bitter end could be that we break from every other European
:03:28. > :03:31.country in the standards of justice that have become the consensus
:03:31. > :03:36.because of Britain's influence after the Second World War and that
:03:36. > :03:41.is a huge step to take. I am not happy with the situation but if
:03:41. > :03:45.ultimately there is a minimal compromise that affects hardly any
:03:45. > :03:50.prisoners than I think it is worth going for. You have to pick your
:03:50. > :03:56.battles. We will look at the debate on Thursday but I feel pretty
:03:56. > :04:02.strongly about this. How do you think it will go? My guess would be
:04:03. > :04:08.that there will be a majority against prison a voting. Then we
:04:08. > :04:12.have to see. But this is not the European Union. Across too many of