:01:23. > :01:28.Should private schools be forced to part nurse state schools? The
:01:28. > :01:38.Girls' School Association says know. Critics say it is he any way to
:01:38. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :37:06.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2127 seconds
:37:06. > :37:08.Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Alex Forsyth. On today's
:37:08. > :37:10.programme. Prime Minister David Cameron has described the
:37:11. > :37:13.separation between private and state schools as "the biggest
:37:13. > :37:23.wasted opportunity facing our country" - but should fee-paying
:37:23. > :37:26.
:37:26. > :37:33.institutions be forced into partnerships? Let us meet the two
:37:33. > :37:37.politicians who will be with me. Conor Burns is Conservative MP for
:37:37. > :37:42.Bournemouth West and Alan Whitehead de Labour MP for Southampton Test.
:37:42. > :37:46.Allen, the Government's energy bill was published yesterday. Lots of
:37:46. > :37:52.mentions of renewable energy but also that we could see people pay
:37:52. > :38:00.more for energy bills. It certainly would not be good news if that is
:38:00. > :38:06.what we end up with. What I hope, in an important piece of
:38:06. > :38:12.legislation which Hasted last 15 years, is that as a result of much
:38:12. > :38:17.better energy efficiency and much better insulation, then bills will
:38:17. > :38:22.go down over the longer period or not go up as quickly as they are at
:38:22. > :38:27.the moment. But there's a lot of work to do to get the bill correct.
:38:28. > :38:33.On renewables, Conor Burns, you have been on the record for
:38:33. > :38:36.position to some proposals for wind farms in your constituency. I am
:38:36. > :38:43.worried about a very specific one, a proposal to build the largest
:38:43. > :38:48.offshore wind farm of the Jurassic Coast of Dorset. We are heavily
:38:48. > :38:53.dependent on tourism and to put that just offshore risks damaging
:38:53. > :38:59.an important sector of the economy. But you need to have renewables
:38:59. > :39:03.somewhere. We need greater energy diversification. We are
:39:03. > :39:09.increasingly reliant on enemies real in the Middle East and enemies
:39:09. > :39:13.as print in Russia. For 13 years, and Labour prevaricated about
:39:13. > :39:17.replacing the nuclear power stations, and we are doing that.
:39:17. > :39:20.Thanks for the moment. It's nearly 2000 pages long and the cost of
:39:20. > :39:23.producing it could reach �5.6 million. But most of what the
:39:23. > :39:27.Leveson Report talks about is the sometimes dubious behaviour of the
:39:27. > :39:36.national press. So what about the local press? It's something the
:39:36. > :39:41.Prime Minister was asked about in the Commons. Effectively what is
:39:41. > :39:44.being said here is that in the constituency of Witney, were the
:39:44. > :39:48.prime minister's agent to have the personal dinner with someone who
:39:48. > :39:53.happens to work for local paper, then there would have to be
:39:53. > :39:59.recorded. What does the Prime is to think of that recommendation?
:39:59. > :40:02.Paragraph 19 of the summary makes a special point about Britain's
:40:02. > :40:10.regional newspapers. It's as their contribution to local life is truly
:40:10. > :40:15.without parallel and he praises the role of local newspapers. On her
:40:15. > :40:20.second point, we must look very carefully at the recommendations
:40:20. > :40:23.for increased transparency. Whiting the transparency is important.
:40:23. > :40:26.his report, Leveson said the demise of regional newspapers would be a
:40:26. > :40:29."real loss for our democracy". So, what could changes to press
:40:29. > :40:36.regulation mean for our local media? Joining me in the studio is
:40:36. > :40:41.Alan Marriott, who is the Editor of the Isle Of Wight County Press. We
:40:41. > :40:45.have had talk about the national media, not so much about local
:40:45. > :40:50.press, by what you think this whole inquiry and report might mean?
:40:50. > :40:55.think it is very important that something happens. Since it came
:40:55. > :41:00.out on Thursday, we have said that if we do not get this right then
:41:00. > :41:07.things I did come down on our heads. We cannot be divorced from the
:41:07. > :41:12.national press in that way. However, we do not do what has been done in
:41:12. > :41:16.the name of journalism by the national press. We do serve the
:41:16. > :41:22.communities that we live in very well. I think we have got to take
:41:22. > :41:28.on this iconic role that we have had an keep it going. Economically,
:41:28. > :41:34.it is a big problem for the regional press these days. But we
:41:34. > :41:38.battle on and what we do not need is bureaucracy on our heads. Do you
:41:38. > :41:42.think you will be tarred effectively by the same brush, and
:41:42. > :41:50.will end up with onerous regulation to make your lives even more
:41:50. > :41:56.difficult? If we follow the model that Lord Hunt has suggested.
:41:56. > :42:01.is the idea of contracting? Yes. It is a Press Complaints Commission
:42:01. > :42:05.with teeth. The power to fine transgressors. I completely
:42:05. > :42:10.understand the reason for doing that. I have spoken to Lord Hunt
:42:10. > :42:14.about it, he is very clear that it would be proportional. So the Isle
:42:14. > :42:17.Of Wight Country Press, which is a small to medium-sized newspaper,
:42:17. > :42:23.would not expect be paying more million-pound fines, which would
:42:23. > :42:28.ruin it. There is reason behind this proposal and I think it would
:42:28. > :42:30.work well. What has your expense being of the Press Complaints
:42:30. > :42:36.Commission? Have they been effective when it comes to local
:42:36. > :42:41.Major? They have. I had been up before the more times than I care
:42:41. > :42:45.to remember. But nine times ahead of 10 I had been found in the right.
:42:45. > :42:50.I say that we have little pleasure because I don't like to think that
:42:50. > :42:54.somebody thinks we have done wrong by them. Inevitably, you to upset
:42:54. > :43:00.people. You should not be deterred from upsetting them by the fact
:43:00. > :43:04.that you may have a watchdog on your back. We have heard a lot
:43:04. > :43:08.about the relationship between a police, politicians and the media
:43:08. > :43:13.on a national level, but surely you must off to work quite closely with
:43:13. > :43:18.those people on a local level? you do have to work closely with
:43:18. > :43:23.them. We all live and work in a very small area on the Isle of
:43:23. > :43:28.Wight. We know the politicians, we know the policeman. They may be
:43:28. > :43:33.friends of ours, whatever, through our social networks. But there is
:43:33. > :43:39.still that barrier that people put up, and we seem to respect,
:43:39. > :43:42.generally, that we do not overstep the mark. There is nothing that you
:43:42. > :43:47.would not do to a politician you know, that you would not report
:43:47. > :43:50.something on them, they were to someone you did not know.
:43:50. > :43:55.Leveson made people more nervous about those relationships are the
:43:55. > :43:59.local level? I do not think so. I think we boys have this correct
:43:59. > :44:06.level of knowing each other but not favouring each other, and I think
:44:06. > :44:10.that will continue. Conor Burns, you have been quite outspoken. He
:44:10. > :44:15.led a letter published this week against the idea of legislation.
:44:15. > :44:21.What are your views on Leveson? Many of the recommendations are
:44:21. > :44:25.welcome. I asked the Prime Minister whether he would encourage me in
:44:25. > :44:30.encouraging Lord Black and Lord Hunt to get on and look at Leveson
:44:30. > :44:34.and seek some of -- and see whether some of the specific
:44:34. > :44:37.recommendations could be added to his proposals for a Press
:44:37. > :44:42.Complaints Commission with T. I am nervous about the idea of
:44:42. > :44:48.legislation underpinning this. I do not think you can be a little bit
:44:48. > :44:53.pregnant. The moment you have a law on the statute book it can be
:44:54. > :45:01.extended and amend it. The letter that I organise, was not just with
:45:01. > :45:10.Tory members. There is nervousness across the house. What of the teeth
:45:10. > :45:14.of a body without legislation? threat of statutory legislation.
:45:14. > :45:23.That is the thing that has got every national newspaper on to the
:45:23. > :45:27.same page in terms of endorsing the plans of Lord Hunt and Lord black.
:45:27. > :45:32.Alan Whitehead, you agree with Leveson, and you like your idea of
:45:32. > :45:37.legislation. Yes, I think legislation as a back-up to shape
:45:37. > :45:41.an independent commission enforce in proper standards and a proper
:45:41. > :45:51.relationship between the press and the Republic -- the press and the
:45:51. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :45:55.public, and a right of redress, that is a correct step forward. It
:45:55. > :45:59.needs to be independent of Parliament but as far as
:45:59. > :46:04.legislation is concerned, the fact that you legislate for safety in
:46:04. > :46:14.vehicles does not mean that MPs runaround dink MoT tests. It is not
:46:14. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:21.like that. It is a back-up to make independent scrutiny work. Lord
:46:21. > :46:28.Leveson was very clear about the importance of the freedom of the
:46:29. > :46:34.press and how that is preserved. do not think the national body
:46:34. > :46:39.which would have to catch everybody in its arrangements would have any
:46:39. > :46:44.effect really on the regional and local press, because, as Lord
:46:44. > :46:49.Leveson said, they have operated almost wholly in a very honourable
:46:49. > :46:54.way over many years. It is about the hacking, it is about the
:46:54. > :46:59.destruction of personal lives, about the intrusions, which went on
:46:59. > :47:09.with connivance at the highest level for many years, legal or not,
:47:09. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:16.in sections of the national press. I feel that, give us a chance. Put
:47:17. > :47:21.us on a suspended sentence, if you like. Unknown lord Leveson says
:47:21. > :47:25.there have been plenty of chances before, but let's give it a go.
:47:25. > :47:28.Thanks for being with us. In Dorset, a unique partnership between a
:47:28. > :47:31.group of state schools and a private school is proving so
:47:31. > :47:34.successful it could be rolled out across the country. Prime Minister
:47:34. > :47:36.David Cameron has described the separation between private and
:47:36. > :47:40.state schools as "the biggest wasted opportunity facing our
:47:40. > :47:49.country". He wants to see the two education sectors working more
:47:49. > :47:56.closely together. But as Tristan Pascoe reports, not everyone agrees.
:47:56. > :48:02.Thomas Hardye School in Dorchester, an academy for a number of years,
:48:02. > :48:09.and they have for long time been in partnership with other schools.
:48:09. > :48:15.Their state school partnership was joined by Enya by a fee-paying
:48:15. > :48:20.school, Sunninghill prepared to school. Today, children and staff
:48:20. > :48:29.from both Sunninghill and Thomas Hardye School have come together to
:48:29. > :48:33.talk about the partnership. We have been to Thomas Hardye School and
:48:33. > :48:40.done Cookery School, Bath stays, partnerships. We can share
:48:40. > :48:45.facilities with the schools. It is a great way to interact with other
:48:45. > :48:50.schools. I think going and do things like cooking is very
:48:50. > :48:57.beneficial, because you can take it back into your own school. The Head
:48:57. > :49:00.Master's believe that integration has huge social benefits. Putting
:49:00. > :49:06.independent schools into Ivory terse is a dangerous thing to do,
:49:06. > :49:13.in my opinion. Working together, we achieve far more for the benefit of
:49:13. > :49:18.all. We learn a Sujit mount from Sunninghill and from Andrew and the
:49:18. > :49:23.way his school works. What I hope is that they benefit from us as
:49:23. > :49:27.well. Most private schools are charities, and that brings tax
:49:27. > :49:34.benefits. Labour say they would abolish that charitable status it
:49:34. > :49:39.private schools do not do more to serve the local community. But some
:49:39. > :49:42.private schools so they do not like being told what to do. This is
:49:42. > :49:48.Sherborne Girls School. Like many independent schools, they are
:49:48. > :49:50.already involved in a smaller scale partnership with the nearby Academy,
:49:50. > :49:56.but the Girls School Association say these kind of partnership
:49:56. > :50:00.should be of their own making a should not be forced. Sometimes,
:50:00. > :50:07.head feel they are being pushed into a certain type of sponsorship
:50:07. > :50:11.of academies. I think in some ways that can be a very poor way of
:50:11. > :50:17.partnering your state schools. There really is not of one size
:50:18. > :50:20.fits all. For independent schools will not sponsoring academies for
:50:20. > :50:27.Kimbolton partnerships, should they have their charitable status
:50:27. > :50:31.preserved? Very few of us would tie it into the chapel status argument.
:50:31. > :50:35.Most of us do this because we think it is the right thing to do. Back
:50:35. > :50:39.in the County Down, the success of the Dorset area partnership has
:50:39. > :50:46.made ministers sit up and take note, and it could become a Template for
:50:46. > :50:51.the rest of the country. But does prove that people can get very high
:50:51. > :50:55.quality schooling where people co- operate. We need to ensure that we
:50:55. > :51:01.open up the opportunity for people to innovate and think of good ways
:51:01. > :51:05.of providing better education. Their heads of both Sunninghill and
:51:05. > :51:09.Thomas Hardye School thing they have hit on a winning formula to
:51:09. > :51:13.help children climbed a ladder of attainment. All of these children
:51:13. > :51:17.will either be working together in later life or going to university
:51:17. > :51:22.together, and I think that until we start to co-operate in this way
:51:22. > :51:28.they will be problems ahead. This is one of the ways we can solve
:51:28. > :51:31.those problems. I believe passionately in state education and
:51:31. > :51:36.comprehensive education, and that in Thomas Hardye School has shown
:51:36. > :51:41.that that provision can be outstanding. But I feel that Thomas
:51:41. > :51:47.Hardye School benefits from this partnership with Sunninghill, and
:51:47. > :51:52.we provide better state education as a result of that. Stronger
:51:52. > :51:55.together. Yes, for sure. The Campaign for State Education
:51:55. > :51:59.would like to remove what they say is the "undeserved charitable
:51:59. > :52:02.status of private schools". But what does that actually mean?
:52:02. > :52:10.Joining me from our Birmingham studio is Michael Pyke, from that
:52:10. > :52:15.campaign group. What do you mean by that? To have charitable status
:52:15. > :52:21.implies that an organisation confers a public benefit. The
:52:21. > :52:26.private school system collectively does not confer a public benefit.
:52:26. > :52:31.Arguably, it confers a public harm. Therefore, to offer charitable
:52:31. > :52:36.status to private schools is a contradiction in terms. What do you
:52:36. > :52:41.mean by public harm? We see that the most successful jurisdictions
:52:41. > :52:45.abroad do not a powerful private sectors. In the case of Finland,
:52:45. > :52:50.for example they felt it necessary to do away with the private sector
:52:50. > :52:57.in order to make progress. But in Allah own country, the private
:52:57. > :53:03.sector collectively deprived state schools of resources, it they
:53:03. > :53:10.deprive state schools of status, which does matter. And behind that,
:53:10. > :53:15.their very existence promulgate the idea that education is a positional
:53:15. > :53:21.good, something, which if you have got the resources, you should buy,
:53:21. > :53:27.in order to advantage your children. That is really not a way to produce
:53:27. > :53:32.a well educated population. Conor Burns, private schools deprive the
:53:32. > :53:38.state sector and cause harm. I have not heard for a long time such
:53:38. > :53:41.utter and complete nonsense. The idea that the vibrant private
:53:42. > :53:45.sector of this country, where children are striving to send
:53:45. > :53:49.children to those schools, they are paying tax to fund the state
:53:49. > :53:53.schools and they are paying fees for the private schools out of
:53:53. > :54:01.taxed income. They are ensuring there is more money in the state
:54:01. > :54:07.sector because they are playing twice. Let us take the teaching
:54:07. > :54:11.supply. About seven % of children in this country attend private
:54:12. > :54:17.schools get 14 % of the teaching force work in private schools. All
:54:17. > :54:20.of them were educated at the taxpayers' expense. You accept that
:54:20. > :54:25.the parents sending shock and to buy the schools are paying tax as
:54:25. > :54:28.well as paying the fees. To know what they cost would be to the
:54:28. > :54:32.DuPont of education at all private schools closed and all the children
:54:33. > :54:36.apply to go to the state schools? If the private schools were
:54:36. > :54:41.integrated into the state system, which they should be, the Bill
:54:42. > :54:46.would be nothing at all. But it is a red herring. There are childless
:54:46. > :54:50.people who pay taxes so that other people's children can be educated.
:54:50. > :54:55.The reason we pay taxes for education is not solely that I can
:54:55. > :54:59.advantage my children at the expense of your children. We pay
:54:59. > :55:04.taxes for education so that the country as a whole will benefit. We
:55:04. > :55:08.know from research by the OECD that the more stratified and
:55:08. > :55:13.hierarchical the education system, the more inefficient it is, the
:55:13. > :55:17.more the children with the poorest backgrounds suffer from that.
:55:17. > :55:23.Whitehead, I want to askew about this idea of private schools part
:55:23. > :55:27.ring with state schools. Can they offer them anything? I think all
:55:27. > :55:30.schools should work together more than they do at present. Both in
:55:30. > :55:36.and around the state system there is a lot of evidence that schools
:55:36. > :55:41.entering into partnerships and working in clusters is a very
:55:41. > :55:48.positive way of advancing education in those schools. But as fast track
:55:48. > :55:52.will status is concerned, I think the law has changed. When
:55:52. > :56:00.charitable status was first introduced for private schools,
:56:00. > :56:04.there was no state education. The idea that you pay someone to
:56:04. > :56:10.educate your child and that institution can then expect to be a
:56:10. > :56:14.charity is rather outdated. I think certainly such schools, if they
:56:14. > :56:19.wish to have charitable status, or to be the cure what it is to be a
:56:19. > :56:25.charity. There are birch trees, there are scholarships, there is
:56:25. > :56:28.work in the community. And a number of those schools do exactly that.
:56:28. > :56:33.Therefore, in terms of qualifying as a charity, you would say that
:56:33. > :56:37.under modern charity law they do. But simply the idea that you go to
:56:37. > :56:46.Harrow and you go to Eton and that is a charity in its own right does
:56:46. > :56:50.not seem to me to be in line with modern charity law. They always
:56:50. > :56:55.used his Harrow and eaten line. There are tens of thousands of
:56:55. > :57:00.excellent private schools. We have an academy in a difficult part of
:57:00. > :57:04.former. A leading private school fees partnering with the ball of
:57:04. > :57:08.the academy. They are lending money and expertise, they are doing a lot
:57:08. > :57:13.to learn their status. What I emphasise was that it was rather
:57:13. > :57:23.more than just being there to get charitable status. Now our regular
:57:23. > :57:31.
:57:31. > :57:36.round-up of the political week in It has been a wet week for many.
:57:36. > :57:40.You would expect to be flooded before Christmas, after Christmas.
:57:40. > :57:45.Motorists in Oxford were almost swamped by swollen rivers, while
:57:45. > :57:49.the row over Flood Insurance rumbles on. But almost art college
:57:49. > :57:57.is one of 10 institutions in the college to be in line for
:57:57. > :58:04.university status. -- Bournemouth. Ofsted Sleep tables showed that
:58:04. > :58:13.only poor just over half of pupils in Portsmouth Reading are in good
:58:13. > :58:20.schools. I think it is quite amazing because it can go 200 mph
:58:20. > :58:25.and I'm not sure if the car could to that. And New Forest West MP
:58:25. > :58:35.sported an impressive moustache as part of the month-long fund-raising
:58:35. > :58:35.
:58:35. > :58:40.drive for charity. Alan Whitehead, is this a special
:58:40. > :58:48.effort? But then above there I should do something like painted
:58:48. > :58:54.pink for November! It mention their about the flooding and it has had a
:58:54. > :58:59.devastating effect. What about this idea to cut defence budgets --
:58:59. > :59:04.flood defence budgets, are you worried about this? Of course. What
:59:04. > :59:08.I was offended by this week was the affair -- de insurers can you do
:59:08. > :59:13.want people they may not get insurance. Clearly we have got to
:59:13. > :59:18.make sure that insure it works well for those people who have had the
:59:18. > :59:22.misfortune of being flooded. There is a wider issue for the future
:59:22. > :59:26.which is to make sure that where we build properties they are properly
:59:26. > :59:30.defend it and that certainly will look carefully at building homes on
:59:30. > :59:34.flood plains because the event at these floods on a much more regular
:59:34. > :59:41.basis in the future, I suspect. We have to make sure people do not
:59:41. > :59:44.have that regular experience of being flooded out of their homes.
:59:44. > :59:47.Thank you both very much for being with us. That's the Sunday Politics
:59:47. > :59:51.in the South, thanks to my guests Conor Burns, and Alan Whitehead.