:01:27. > :01:37.In the south, more or more councils are thinking about closing public
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :41:56.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2418 seconds
:41:56. > :41:59.toilets. What other health issues? Welcome to Sunday Politics South.
:41:59. > :42:02.My name's Peter Henley. On today's programme:
:42:02. > :42:05.How taking a comfort break is about to get a lot harder. Councils have
:42:05. > :42:15.no statutory obligation to provide public loos and many of them are
:42:15. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:21.now saying they'd rather spend their pennies elsewhere.
:42:21. > :42:25.First, we meet Richard Williams, the Labour leader of the
:42:25. > :42:33.Southampton council, and Always Goldsmith, the Conservative member
:42:33. > :42:39.from West Sussex council. -- Louise Goldsmith. Richard, you were a
:42:39. > :42:44.democracy Dodger according to Eric Pickles. I think he is one himself.
:42:44. > :42:51.He says localism is the way forward then castigate people for making
:42:51. > :42:58.decisions locally. The he tells local authorities to cut back on
:42:58. > :43:08.having drinks at meetings, but his biscuit and drinks bill this
:43:08. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:18.expensive. He Louise Goldsmith, do you think it is a cynical move for
:43:18. > :43:24.
:43:24. > :43:34.a council to go for 1.99 or 1.95? do not comment about what other
:43:34. > :43:39.councils at doing. The we are very pleased with the way we are. The we
:43:39. > :43:42.have delivered what Eric has asked us to. Other Conservative a
:43:42. > :43:49.authorities are going for a bit of an increase, otherwise you are
:43:49. > :43:53.cutting back on services. We have delivered it savings. This year has
:43:53. > :43:58.been tight. It has been an ambition to keep our council tax as low as
:43:58. > :44:04.possible, and we are delivering. it is optimistic talk, savings
:44:04. > :44:14.rather than cut. If you look at the value of the pound in 2009, it is
:44:14. > :44:18.
:44:18. > :44:28.now down to grow 84 p -- down to about 84p. Her it is still below
:44:28. > :44:36.
:44:36. > :44:42.RPI and CPID. -- CPI. The if you have a referendum, it is getting on
:44:42. > :44:47.for a million pounds. It is an expensive exercise. You do not have
:44:47. > :44:51.to have a referendum because you have the elections. At slickly.
:44:51. > :44:55.do you think it will be recognised you have made savings and done the
:44:55. > :45:00.right thing by this coalition government, all will people look at
:45:00. > :45:05.what they think has effectively cuts? A so I think we have
:45:06. > :45:10.protected 80 per cent of our services in West Sussex. We made a
:45:10. > :45:20.pledge to allow residents. They have tight times and they expect to
:45:20. > :45:22.pay as little as they can. We are living on that promise. The From
:45:22. > :45:25.October this year, the Government wants housing benefits to be paid
:45:25. > :45:27.direct to tenants not their landlords. It's part of the new
:45:27. > :45:30.Universal Credit, and according to the Government, it'll encourage
:45:30. > :45:33.people to manage their own budgets in the same way that other
:45:33. > :45:36.households do. But according to a survey for the National Housing
:45:36. > :45:39.Federation, 29% of people living in social housing are expected to
:45:39. > :45:43.struggle with their rent and could end up in debt. Kevin Williamson is
:45:43. > :45:50.from the National Housing Federation and joins me now.
:45:50. > :45:59.Will we how did you come up with at 29 per cent figure? For a we had
:46:00. > :46:09.some work done by a group, who interviewed tenants. A lot of those
:46:10. > :46:10.
:46:10. > :46:15.tenants were low income budgets, used to working on weekly budgets.
:46:15. > :46:18.And that enables them to have the flexibility to rob Peter to pay
:46:19. > :46:23.Paul at the end of the week. Under the new system, payments will be
:46:23. > :46:27.made monthly, in arrears and direct to tenants. We know that about half
:46:27. > :46:32.of people on housing benefit are quite concerned that if they get
:46:32. > :46:37.the money directly themselves, they will fall behind with the rent. We
:46:37. > :46:42.think it would be wise if the government introduced a bit of
:46:42. > :46:48.flexibility and allowed some people to opt in to having their rents
:46:48. > :46:57.paid direct to the landlord. that was their choice, they could
:46:57. > :47:06.make their own arrangements. So does social housing organisations
:47:06. > :47:11.would like to know. There have been some pilot schemes, there was one
:47:11. > :47:19.in Oxford, have people had to give a hip so on receiving the money
:47:19. > :47:26.themselves as a result of that? Deraa interesting findings. It was
:47:26. > :47:30.published last week -- there are interesting findings. Housing a
:47:30. > :47:36.associations are expecting rent arrears to increase by 50 per cent
:47:36. > :47:41.as a result of these reforms. That is a quarter of a billion pounds
:47:41. > :47:48.increase in rent arrears, which will have an impact on some housing
:47:48. > :47:54.associations. The other finding days, as millions of pounds are
:47:54. > :47:59.being invested, the associations are finding that the level of
:47:59. > :48:05.awareness about his benefit changes is very low. A lot of these changes
:48:05. > :48:12.are coming in in April. It is quite a concern. * Always Goldsmith, the
:48:12. > :48:18.idea is self-reliance. Do you support that -- Louise Goldsmith.
:48:18. > :48:24.The exactly. It is about helping people on the road to getting back
:48:24. > :48:32.into work. The government have done several pilot across the country.
:48:32. > :48:38.It has been intensive to get people into accepting and managing it. The
:48:39. > :48:47.results are good. He there are some areas where people are finding it
:48:47. > :48:52.difficult and we must work with them. Now is the time of people
:48:52. > :48:59.taking control, managing their money. You were saying they could
:48:59. > :49:01.be more empowered the but there could be more flexibility?
:49:01. > :49:06.National Housing Federation thinks there are some good things about
:49:07. > :49:14.the reforms in terms of getting people into work. I would take you
:49:14. > :49:21.up on the issue of about the demonstrator projects. The results
:49:21. > :49:28.are consistent with the warring result I gave out earlier. --
:49:28. > :49:32.worrying results. When we load on top of fate that different benefit
:49:33. > :49:38.changes that are coming, the real terms welfare cut there was
:49:38. > :49:44.announced at the end of the year, there are big unknowns in how these
:49:44. > :49:54.things come together and the impact on the community. We are right not
:49:54. > :49:54.
:49:55. > :50:04.to be complacent. A sphere of the unknown. I used scaremongering? --
:50:05. > :50:05.
:50:05. > :50:13.are you scaremongering? There are six pilots. The results are highly
:50:13. > :50:19.varied. The average increase in areas across those pilots is about
:50:19. > :50:24.60 per cent, so that is even worse than the figure I gave you earlier.
:50:24. > :50:28.The it is not scaremongering. There are things that government cannot
:50:28. > :50:33.do to ease the transition to the new arrangements. They do have to
:50:33. > :50:43.start listening to these issues around design of the reforms and
:50:43. > :50:45.
:50:45. > :50:52.implementation. The you want to see flexibility as well? Or yes. The
:50:52. > :50:55.this is going out to all our tenants now. Do you think and
:50:55. > :51:00.pouring people will be a good thing? We have to let people know
:51:00. > :51:10.this is happening. We cannot change it. Not letting people know about
:51:10. > :51:17.
:51:17. > :51:27.the changes is a mistake. Mike Morey -- might worry is that mixed
:51:27. > :51:42.
:51:42. > :51:49.messages at getting out. The we want to Npower people -- we want to
:51:49. > :51:56.Npower people. I think there has been some public research on pre-
:51:56. > :52:01.paid cards. That may be a useful option. The whole thing is to help
:52:02. > :52:11.people on the road to independence. A lot of people have not had backed
:52:11. > :52:21.independence. It will take time. I think taking it over a period of
:52:21. > :52:25.
:52:25. > :52:34.time is the right way. Spending too much at the moment the, well people
:52:34. > :52:39.have less in their pocket overall? The yes. There are so many aspects
:52:39. > :52:46.to this conversation. If we wanted to reduce housing benefit costs,
:52:46. > :52:52.you would tackle a housing crisis we have in this country. Until we
:52:52. > :52:56.tackle that, we will have housing benefit costs that are high. In the
:52:56. > :53:04.last three years, the number of working people that need housing
:53:04. > :53:09.benefit to support their costs has increased by it is six per cent?
:53:09. > :53:19.is a Bill that will have to be reduced. -- 60 per cent. Thank you
:53:19. > :53:20.
:53:20. > :53:23.for coming in. There are We've all been there. You're out shopping in
:53:23. > :53:26.town, get caught short and have that panicky moment before you spot
:53:26. > :53:29.the sign that means blessed relief - public toilet this way. Well, in
:53:29. > :53:32.future, you may have to just cross your legs and hope, because cash-
:53:32. > :53:35.strapped councils all over the south are looking at closing down
:53:35. > :53:38.some or even all of their public loos. As Paul Greer has discovered,
:53:38. > :53:42.a lack of conveniences can be, well, inconvenient.
:53:42. > :53:50.What do they say? Find a penny, pick it up, and all the day, you'll
:53:50. > :53:55.have good luck. Unless, of course, you ever want to try and spend it.
:53:55. > :53:57.Locals in Ventnor on the Isle of Wight will tell you that back in
:53:57. > :54:03.the '70s, there were 13 public toilets in the town, but today all
:54:03. > :54:06.but one are closed. # Where can I go? #. Despite being one of the
:54:06. > :54:13.UK's top tourist destinations, the public loos on the island has
:54:13. > :54:16.fallen by around 40% in just three years. And it's a similar tale in
:54:16. > :54:24.most of our towns and cities. Councils don't have to provide
:54:24. > :54:27.public loos. With cuts being demanded from Whitehall, if it's
:54:27. > :54:31.not a statutory service, then it's at risk. Dave Small says finding a
:54:31. > :54:34.loo on the island is getting harder and harder. Gradually, the county
:54:34. > :54:40.council is seeing to it that they're all slowly disappearing.
:54:40. > :54:44.They think people don't notice if things happen slowly. But people
:54:44. > :54:47.live a long life. Over ten years you can look back and say, "Oh,
:54:47. > :54:50.that was there once", or, "Oh, I wish we had that still." Toilets
:54:50. > :54:54.are one of the main things that are going. You can't find one. There
:54:54. > :55:04.are lots of street signs saying "Toilets" but when you go for them,
:55:04. > :55:07.
:55:07. > :55:10.they're a house or wall, they're not toilets. # Where can I go? #.
:55:10. > :55:13.Here in Portsmouth, the council is proposing to close more than half
:55:13. > :55:16.the public toilets across the city in an effort to save hundreds of
:55:16. > :55:19.thousands of pounds. Currently in Portsmouth, we spend over half a
:55:19. > :55:23.million pounds a year providing public loos around the city, but I
:55:23. > :55:26.think we can probably do it better and smarter. The reality is, this
:55:26. > :55:35.year I have to make �17 million worth of cuts because the
:55:35. > :55:38.Government has withdrawn funding. We have to look at everything. Some
:55:38. > :55:42.things, like children in care, people with real disabilities, we
:55:42. > :55:48.have to protect those. We'll try to keep as many public loos in
:55:48. > :55:56.Portsmouth open as we can. People are being asked what they make of
:55:56. > :56:00.the plans for fewer loos. We've come to visit Portsmouth. We know
:56:00. > :56:04.where the toilets are, and if they cut them by half, I think I might
:56:04. > :56:09.be in a bit of trouble! You can't find public toilets these days.
:56:09. > :56:12.It's one of the essential things of life, isn't it? People need toilets
:56:12. > :56:18.if they're out all day, don't they? So, it's obvious, keep them open,
:56:18. > :56:23.isn't it? We walk a lot every day, so if you're out all day, what do
:56:23. > :56:26.you do? What do you do? Exactly. So don't close them. Ever since Queen
:56:26. > :56:31.Victoria was on the throne, public toilets have been part of the
:56:31. > :56:36.landscape in our towns and cities. As more and more vanish, there are
:56:36. > :56:39.voices warning of a risk to public health. I don't think there are
:56:39. > :56:41.councils anywhere who want to be doing this, particularly in
:56:41. > :56:45.metropolitan, urban areas, where there are concentrations of people.
:56:45. > :56:48.They know the dangers. Don't forget, environmental health services are
:56:48. > :56:58.also being cut at the same time, so standards of public health are
:56:58. > :56:59.
:56:59. > :57:02.being trimmed away by the day. It won't be long before we're throwing
:57:02. > :57:05.our slops out of the window and shouting gardyloo! In the short
:57:05. > :57:08.term, more public toilets across the south look set to close as
:57:08. > :57:18.councils struggle to make savings. Finding a loo that's open will more
:57:18. > :57:26.
:57:27. > :57:31.The and and and I suppose you have to spend a penny to save a penny --
:57:31. > :57:36.I suppose you have to spend a penny to save a penny. These toilets have
:57:36. > :57:42.become vandalised. They needed to be kept going. We have seen
:57:42. > :57:46.closures for many years across the country. We worked for the private
:57:46. > :57:52.sector to swap advertising and bus shelters to bring in some public
:57:52. > :58:02.toilets. They were paid tanners. is important for tourist areas.
:58:02. > :58:02.
:58:02. > :58:09.Very much. In Southampton, we had to make savings. We have the same
:58:09. > :58:19.as over the next few years. Sooner or later, we end up on a graph of
:58:19. > :58:26.doom. As they were saying, the feeling his, people will not notice
:58:26. > :58:30.if these are taken away. I of course people will notice. People
:58:30. > :58:36.will notice more and more services being reduced or cut back or
:58:36. > :58:43.completely closed. Inflation is still there. There are other things
:58:43. > :58:48.you could surely make economies on. But biscuits have gone, I'm afraid.
:58:48. > :58:52.We try to prioritise services based on need and public safety, and
:58:52. > :59:01.safeguarding children and adults. To public safety might be an issue
:59:01. > :59:05.here. I know we laugh about it. The British Toilet Association say
:59:06. > :59:15.toilet has closed every day since the coalition started. Everyone has
:59:15. > :59:25.to contribute towards the savings to pay off that there. -- pay off
:59:25. > :59:28.
:59:28. > :59:33.the debt. The it is not an easy decision. A lot of people are
:59:33. > :59:40.looking at cleaning contracts and things like that. People expect a
:59:40. > :59:50.high level of hygiene, and says they should. Some places, some
:59:50. > :59:51.
:59:51. > :59:55.people have said, we will open a our toilets so. A lot of people are
:59:55. > :00:01.helping out. I would say it is a slippery slope book that is another
:00:01. > :00:10.upon. I could set authorities are not flush with money. It however,
:00:11. > :00:20.it is a serious issue. What will the answer they? Sweeney to make
:00:21. > :00:21.
:00:21. > :00:31.sure our money is spent effectively. -- will need to make sure. People
:00:31. > :00:31.
:00:31. > :00:41.on low incomes are having to face up to a problems. Millionaires are
:00:41. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:52.getting tax cuts. Those priorities are not right. The that is
:00:53. > :00:57.completely ridiculous. It shows the scale of the problem. The DEC came
:00:57. > :01:02.from your administration, not ours. But it is worse under yours than it
:01:02. > :01:09.was under hours. We are reducing the deficit, but we picked it up
:01:09. > :01:12.from you. A deficit is getting worse! We will leave it there. Now
:01:12. > :01:15.our regular round-up of the political week in the south in 60
:01:15. > :01:18.seconds, and this week it's all about not everything being what it
:01:18. > :01:22.seems. When is an ambulance not an
:01:22. > :01:25.ambulance? When it's part of a queue. We heard this week a record
:01:25. > :01:28.number are having to stay at hospitals for up to two hours as
:01:28. > :01:32.their patients wait for treatment. The whole system from the point
:01:32. > :01:36.where you call an ambulance to the point where you leave hospital is
:01:36. > :01:40.completely overwhelmed. They're renaming parts of Fareham
:01:40. > :01:44.in Hampshire. Local people have a month to dream up a name for the
:01:44. > :01:47.new development to the north of the town.
:01:47. > :01:49.Loyalties were blurred at PMQs. East Hampshire's Damian Hinds
:01:49. > :01:52.loyally backing giving childminders more children, but South Dorset's
:01:52. > :01:58.Richard Drax turning on his own side over search and rescue
:01:58. > :02:05.helicopters. Repeated requests so far have been ignored, and I
:02:05. > :02:08.would've thought a visit would be at the least curteous and wise.
:02:08. > :02:11.When is a Government green scheme actually self-help? When volunteers
:02:12. > :02:21.roll out the insulation. Reading Council have bought materials for
:02:22. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:34.draught-proofing and local people Is that us like a good plan. Big
:02:34. > :02:41.Society, getting people involved. Absolutely. We are going ahead with
:02:41. > :02:51.a Wood Green deal. I think it is exciting. The -- we are going ahead
:02:51. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:58.with the green a deal. The it is the opportunities are there. For it
:02:59. > :03:05.is a terrific chance. You pay it back from the savings you make in
:03:05. > :03:11.the electricity bills? That's crack. The interest rate looks high. The
:03:11. > :03:17.interest rate is being set. Over the long term, I think it is really
:03:17. > :03:24.good value. One thing is for sure. The price of electricity and gas is
:03:24. > :03:27.going to go up. Do you think the green deal will work? I have great
:03:27. > :03:32.reservations. Why would you borrow money at six per cent when you can
:03:32. > :03:42.borrow it for less? I am supportive of what is being done in terms of
:03:42. > :03:51.
:03:51. > :03:59.the Environment. A cross-party, it is not a party political thing, I
:03:59. > :04:05.hope the Greens in Brighton get involved as well. We only have to
:04:05. > :04:11.procure the services of a partner wants rather than 15 times. It will
:04:11. > :04:18.hope to bring more jobs and opportunities into our area.