:01:30. > :01:40.the weight is recorded as fundamentally flawed. -- in the
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :37:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2156 seconds
:37:37. > :37:41.Crime levels about their lowest level for 30 years, but can you
:37:41. > :37:48.really believe the statistics? Violence is down by 6%, and robbery
:37:48. > :37:51.13%. But our officers under pressure to keep crime levels low? The Police
:37:51. > :37:54.Federation certainly thinks so and some experts believe the way we
:37:54. > :37:59.measure crime is fundamentally flawed.
:37:59. > :38:03.Let's meet the politicians who will be with me. Lord Jim Knight from
:38:03. > :38:11.Dorset is Ely Borough peer, Dr Phillip Lee is the Conservative MP
:38:11. > :38:16.for Racal. Seven men convicted of this week. The big story was the
:38:16. > :38:20.grooming and sexually exploiting of girls in Oxford. Some as young as 11
:38:20. > :38:23.and from troubled background. Lisa and social services came into
:38:23. > :38:29.contact with these offenders time and time again. Why do you think
:38:29. > :38:35.nothing was done? I think there has been a culture in the police and
:38:35. > :38:40.social services not to believe these vulnerable young women when they
:38:40. > :38:44.come forward. We have seen it in other parts of the country. The
:38:44. > :38:49.victims who have given evidence in that trial should be applauded for
:38:49. > :38:53.their bravery in doing so. Also, the police officers carried out the
:38:53. > :38:58.operation have done good job in the end. But there has been a culture in
:38:58. > :39:04.the police of not taking his thing seriously, and that has to change.
:39:04. > :39:08.Phillip Lee, the police say race was not a factor in this, but these were
:39:08. > :39:14.five men convicted from an Asian background. All the girls were
:39:14. > :39:19.white. What do you think? I do not think it has anything to do with
:39:19. > :39:24.Islam. Islam teaches people to treat women appropriately. The idea it is
:39:24. > :39:29.anything to do that, think, is wrong. To say that it is a Pakistani
:39:29. > :39:36.community problem would be too simplistic. Clearly, there are
:39:36. > :39:40.problems, and where you have such problems in one community, I'm sure
:39:41. > :39:46.members of the committee are reflecting on that. It would not be
:39:47. > :39:51.appropriate that it has anything to do with race or religion. People of
:39:51. > :39:56.Pakistani origin would be as appalled by this as anyone else.
:39:56. > :40:02.There may be some cultures that we would all be appalled by. It seems
:40:02. > :40:07.to be more widespread than people thought. Jim, when this was going
:40:07. > :40:15.on, you were the schools Minister, AGP, isn't it about agencies not
:40:15. > :40:21.having talked to each other's -- talk to each other properly? We need
:40:21. > :40:26.to look at ourselves. Increasingly, we turn to, it's the system, it's
:40:26. > :40:32.the social care system. We have had so many examples of a breakdown in
:40:32. > :40:37.systems. When we going to realise that individually, as professional
:40:37. > :40:43.people, we all have a responsibility to say when something is wrong? In
:40:43. > :40:49.Staffordshire, there was another example. From my time in the
:40:49. > :40:52.department, when that was going on, it inspired others to start a way of
:40:52. > :40:56.sharing data for people and professionals who work with children
:40:56. > :41:00.so that some of these things could be spotted earlier. Unfortunately,
:41:00. > :41:03.it was expensive and has been cancelled. I wonder whether or not
:41:03. > :41:08.does was a good idea. There are other people who are now in charge
:41:08. > :41:11.and making those decisions. But the people in charge seem to have
:41:11. > :41:17.learned lessons. Do you think it is right they are allowed to develop
:41:17. > :41:20.the answers here in oxygen? There needs to be a transparent debate
:41:20. > :41:25.about that. Some people are worried that people aren't taking
:41:25. > :41:29.responsibility. I don't want to see the Chief Constable head of the
:41:29. > :41:34.council should resign, because it is a wider problem. People should start
:41:34. > :41:38.taking responsibility. No one is talking about the periods of the
:41:39. > :41:45.girls. What about parental report -- parental responsibility? I think
:41:46. > :41:50.they tried very hard. I know that the Chief Constable has apologise,
:41:50. > :41:54.and that is to be respected, but when you look at this, you think,
:41:54. > :42:02.what about the responsibilities of families in all of this? I am not
:42:02. > :42:08.convinced that people wouldn't have known. Members of the family...
:42:08. > :42:16.about the man who was driving around Oxford trying to find his doctor? --
:42:16. > :42:20.trying to find his daughter? I think as a society, we need to start the
:42:20. > :42:25.King at ourselves a bit and stop relying on Government. We need to
:42:25. > :42:29.start relying on committees and families.
:42:29. > :42:33.On a hospital ward, how many patients can one nurse look after
:42:33. > :42:38.safely? It is a question being asked in the NHS were senior nurses say
:42:38. > :42:42.that was regularly have one registered nurse caring for each or
:42:42. > :42:47.more patients. They believe that is unsafe. According to Southampton
:42:47. > :42:54.University research, is that patients to NASA visual increases,
:42:54. > :43:03.so does more deaths. Joining us is Jane Ball, Debbie the director of
:43:03. > :43:06.the National Nursing Research Unit. What is this research showing?
:43:06. > :43:10.campaign is all about drawing attention to staffing levels,
:43:10. > :43:14.particularly registered nurse staffing levels, and highlighting
:43:14. > :43:18.that there becomes a level at which staffing can fault too low and
:43:18. > :43:22.patients lives are at risk. We are drawing from a range of different
:43:22. > :43:28.research. There has been research over the last ten years, but the
:43:28. > :43:32.most recent study that Southampton University undertook looked at but
:43:32. > :43:40.one different trusts. We surveyed nurses in those trusts and related
:43:40. > :43:43.their staffing levels to our data we had an mortality rate. What we found
:43:43. > :43:49.was that you get to a certain point where patients are at greater risk
:43:49. > :43:52.of dying in hospital. It's a tipping point, is it? Are you sure that
:43:52. > :43:57.statistics and a simple relationship between staffing and mortality tells
:43:57. > :44:03.the whole story? Isn't there a lot more about the quality of training?
:44:03. > :44:07.I think both are true. There is a lot more to good quality care with
:44:07. > :44:13.safety and compassion, rather than just the right number of nurses. But
:44:13. > :44:17.if you don't have enough nurses, you will put lives at risk. So, it is a
:44:17. > :44:22.continuum and there are other factors, but when you get to eight
:44:22. > :44:25.patients or more per registered nurse, you're putting lives at risk.
:44:25. > :44:28.To achieve that target, another target for the Health Service,
:44:28. > :44:38.wouldn't you have to take away money from other parts of the National
:44:38. > :44:38.
:44:38. > :44:41.Health Service? Possibly causing trouble, but Roberts Francis was
:44:41. > :44:47.causing trouble when he was investigating what was going on in
:44:47. > :44:54.Staffordshire. If we believe in patient matters, we have to look at
:44:54. > :44:58.what makes a difference. We are seeing clear evidence that must
:44:58. > :45:02.staffing levels, registered nurse staffing levels, make a difference.
:45:02. > :45:09.We can't ignore that evidence. These are difficult times in terms of
:45:09. > :45:15.costs, but we can't ignore that relationship. Otherwise, -- the
:45:15. > :45:19.pasty decision-making back to nurses. What we find is that nurses
:45:19. > :45:23.with lower levels of staff say they are things they don't do on their
:45:23. > :45:31.shift. Nine out of ten nurses say that there were activities relation
:45:31. > :45:34.-- relating to not seize -- relating to patients that they had not done.
:45:34. > :45:39.That won't solve the problem, because there are all sorts of other
:45:39. > :45:44.factors. One of the things that came out of the CQC report was that there
:45:45. > :45:49.was a lot of variation in hospitals, but were somewhat have good staffing
:45:50. > :45:53.levels and aren't delivering good quality of care. We need to
:45:53. > :45:56.understand what is going on with that. They also said that delivering
:45:56. > :46:01.a high quality of care is almost impossible if you don't have enough
:46:01. > :46:04.nursing staff. The cos there simply isn't enough expertise available to
:46:04. > :46:10.patients to get things done, so nurses have to effectively ration
:46:10. > :46:15.care, will they have to choose whether or not to answer a buzzer or
:46:15. > :46:25.carry on giving medications on time. We're putting Fisher nurses to work
:46:25. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:31.out how to prioritise and Russian. -- prioritise. We need more of
:46:31. > :46:38.everything, because that is where healthcare is going. We are raging.
:46:38. > :46:42.-- we are getting older. If you have an ageing society, you're more
:46:42. > :46:46.likely to have people who have dementia. If you have one person
:46:46. > :46:49.with dementia on a ward, this can cause no end of problems to nursing
:46:49. > :46:55.staff. It is not just about the nature of the job, it is the nature
:46:55. > :46:58.of the cases, because we are raging. There is also a case about
:46:58. > :47:06.buildings. If you have a traditional ward with it is. , it is much more
:47:06. > :47:09.difficult to staff. It is multifactorial. The challenge we
:47:09. > :47:14.have as a society is that we can spend twice as much as we do on
:47:14. > :47:20.health care and still have problems. Given way have got the
:47:20. > :47:26.system we have got, Abbey go to have to spend charge people for it? Some
:47:26. > :47:31.radical reorganisation? The NHS is going through yet another radical
:47:31. > :47:37.reorganisation at the moment. make sure that patients get the
:47:37. > :47:41.money spent on them that we need. have 5000 fewer masses than we did
:47:41. > :47:45.in 2010 and it is projected to fall over the next few years. The Care
:47:45. > :47:51.Quality Commission says that one in ten hospitals does not have enough
:47:51. > :47:57.staff. It is a timely reminder of staff levels. Clearly, just to say
:47:57. > :48:00.it is all about staff is simplistic, and there is a finite
:48:00. > :48:05.amount of resources. We have to look at whether we can do more ourselves
:48:05. > :48:13.as it -- citizens to prevent ourselves getting chronic diseases
:48:13. > :48:16.and conditions. But, in the end, I do think we need to look carefully
:48:16. > :48:20.at staffing levels and hold David Cameron to his promise about the
:48:20. > :48:26.National Health Service. A new target, as that which you would like
:48:26. > :48:35.to see? I wouldn't describe it as a target. The 128 ratio isn't a
:48:35. > :48:39.fundamental style -- target that should be breached. Nurses should
:48:39. > :48:46.report to the trust and hospital and asked for action to be taken. That
:48:46. > :48:49.standard can be used. Because we don't have definite guidelines,
:48:49. > :48:53.there isn't measures to help people assess whether staffing is OK or
:48:53. > :48:58.not. For years, we have had nurses saying they don't have enough staff,
:48:58. > :49:03.and others saying, well, we're always hearing that. Now we have a
:49:03. > :49:07.number that we can help to gauge if it is at an unsafe level. We would
:49:07. > :49:13.call for patients, visitors to ask, how many staff are on today? How
:49:14. > :49:19.many beaches -- how many registered nurses? Thank you very much
:49:19. > :49:23.forgotten to us. The latest figures show crime is at
:49:23. > :49:28.its lowest level for more than 30 years. In Hampshire, it is down by
:49:28. > :49:32.15%, and in Thames Valley, nearly 11%. That is according to the
:49:32. > :49:40.official crime survey. But how trustworthy others figures and the
:49:41. > :49:46.way they are measured? -- how trustworthy RB figures?
:49:46. > :49:54.I don't feel safe. I can't go out until Constable. -- go out and feel
:49:54. > :49:59.comfortable. We live in Swanage, and the electricity and main lights have
:49:59. > :50:08.been switched off. I have heard people saying crime is going up
:50:08. > :50:11.because of that. I don't like it at night on my own. We wouldn't go out
:50:11. > :50:17.in the evening on our own things like that. Nowhere near the save as
:50:17. > :50:22.a few years ago. So, some people may think crime is on the increase.
:50:22. > :50:27.According to figures, it is actually going down. So which is it? When you
:50:27. > :50:30.go to a holiday parks such as the ones we find in the South coast and
:50:30. > :50:34.the number of caravans have been broken into, years ago, when I first
:50:34. > :50:39.started as a police officer, I would be recording ten different kinds for
:50:39. > :50:42.that. At the moment, we record one. There needs to be a debate and
:50:42. > :50:46.examination of exactly what is going on with crime figures, because we
:50:46. > :50:49.think people are just not reporting it. At their annual conference in
:50:49. > :50:56.Bournemouth last week, the Police Federation said crime figures were
:50:56. > :50:59.being kept artificially low. The way in which police and interpreting the
:50:59. > :51:07.rules sent from the Home Office, given that they had been under
:51:07. > :51:13.pressure to show year-on-year falls and crying -- on crime, if crime
:51:13. > :51:18.levels went up, there was a failure. In Dorset, I am confident in
:51:18. > :51:21.relation to the accuracy of crime figures. We have plenty of people
:51:21. > :51:28.who check that we are doing it accurately according to national
:51:28. > :51:30.standards. Despite an apparent fall in violent offences of nearly 15%,
:51:30. > :51:35.one Dorset charity working with victims of domestic violence says
:51:35. > :51:40.the reality is different. Sometimes statistics are behind what is
:51:40. > :51:44.happening on the ground. That is now one pos-mac fault, it is just the
:51:44. > :51:50.recording statistics and classification of watch report. We
:51:50. > :51:53.see an increasing need for people with housing over the few years --
:51:53. > :52:00.Oval last few years, and over the last 12 months. We have seen a big
:52:00. > :52:04.increase. There are two ways that crime levels are measured. One, the
:52:04. > :52:08.number of crimes reported to the police, and another based on the
:52:08. > :52:12.survey of households and their experience of crime. That is showing
:52:12. > :52:16.that crime is falling, and I think we should congratulate the officers
:52:16. > :52:21.on the streets who have been doing their part in making sure those
:52:21. > :52:26.figures go down. But there are some who say they crime survey figures
:52:26. > :52:30.will always be misleading. Property crime has changed in its nature
:52:30. > :52:35.since the early 1990s. There are new forms of property crime being
:52:35. > :52:39.perpetrated on an increasing scale. The sorts of fraud and scams that go
:52:39. > :52:46.on over the internet. Those are not reported to the police. It doesn't
:52:46. > :52:51.include shoplifting. Lots and lots of crime which are very prevalent
:52:51. > :52:56.but not captured in the survey. Somehow, it has become a sacred cow,
:52:56. > :52:59.which is not open to question. The coverage of what is really going on
:52:59. > :53:05.with crime is extremely livid -- extremely limited and always has
:53:05. > :53:11.been. That has become more so as forms of property crime has changed.
:53:11. > :53:18.Here in the studio is the Hampshire Police and Crime Commissioner. Do
:53:19. > :53:21.you trust these figures customer -- these figures customer it is
:53:21. > :53:28.important that the public trustees figures and I have a responsibility
:53:28. > :53:31.to prevent reoffending. But how can the public or do you trust the
:53:31. > :53:36.figures when they did not include things like the problems with
:53:37. > :53:40.shoplifting, ten crimes being counted as one, as the place
:53:40. > :53:46.federation pointed? Domestic violence seemed to continue at the
:53:46. > :53:49.same level, and yet, the figures say you're doing marvellous. When we
:53:49. > :53:53.give the public don't have confidence in crime recording, that
:53:53. > :53:56.is of great concern to me. What we're looking at in Hampshire,
:53:56. > :54:01.particularly around business crime, I have spoken to the Federation of
:54:02. > :54:06.Small Businesses. Business crime should be taken more seriously in
:54:06. > :54:09.terms of recording in Hampshire. some people don't even reported to
:54:09. > :54:14.the place when the destroyed and maybe just pay the money back to
:54:14. > :54:17.someone. That shouldn't carry on, surely? People should report crime
:54:17. > :54:22.to the police and we would ask that people do report crimes. What we
:54:22. > :54:27.have seen in this round of statistics is a clear route duction
:54:27. > :54:30.of crime in a number of years, not just the last 12 months. That's
:54:30. > :54:34.where you can do something, isn't it, because people should be getting
:54:34. > :54:37.crime numbers from the police and the place should be interested. When
:54:37. > :54:43.someone goes to the man says, I'm suspicious about this, a lot of the
:54:44. > :54:48.time, the impression is that the police aren't interested. I think
:54:48. > :54:53.one of the things that will come out of this is that that interest will
:54:53. > :54:56.be found to be in within -- will be found to be within the police
:54:56. > :54:59.constabulary. And the policing plan I have an Isle of Wight in the next
:54:59. > :55:04.five years, there are targets and elements that the police will need
:55:04. > :55:07.to look at. But they will meet the targets because they will find a way
:55:07. > :55:12.of gaining these figures. It is what is happening in education and Health
:55:13. > :55:16.Service. There is no advantage in the police constabulary fiddling the
:55:16. > :55:23.figures, and I am the Chief Constable in Hampshire and Isle of
:55:23. > :55:27.Wight, and I'm keen to make sure that will not happen. Phillip Lee,
:55:27. > :55:30.do you think this chasing after targets and statistics is a good
:55:30. > :55:35.thing? It'll all be seen to the public that the target has been
:55:35. > :55:43.achieved, and they put -- and yet, the perception as it is not. I am
:55:43. > :55:45.not a great fan of targets. I blame the previous Government for that.
:55:45. > :55:52.The public want to perceive that things are being chest and
:55:52. > :55:57.perceived. -- are being achieved. You would expect at a time of
:55:57. > :56:01.economic distress for crime to go up significantly. I'm not suggesting it
:56:02. > :56:07.is a perfect survey. It is internationally recognised, I might
:56:07. > :56:13.add. It is respected. But, of course there is more work to do. My
:56:13. > :56:20.personal position is that targets in politics has got us into that God is
:56:20. > :56:27.in the past. Is getting us into over crime? The reduction of crime is to
:56:27. > :56:35.be welcomed. Is it? Can we believe it? There are new crowns emerging
:56:35. > :56:39.because of technology. Would you have said that six years ago?
:56:39. > :56:44.sitting in Cabinet and Alan Johnson telling us that crime figures had
:56:44. > :56:51.reduced. At that like exam inflation. Every year, they do
:56:51. > :56:57.better. There are important trends to keep an eye out for. There is
:56:57. > :57:01.evidence through Freedom of information requests. Community
:57:01. > :57:06.resolution requests have gone up in four years for violent crimes as
:57:06. > :57:10.well. That is the thousand violent crimes are not being recorded.
:57:10. > :57:16.People aren't getting a criminal record for them. Thank you very
:57:16. > :57:19.much. Now for our regular round-up of the
:57:19. > :57:28.political week in the South in 60 seconds. This week, we're out on the
:57:28. > :57:33.beat. If we all walked an extra ten
:57:33. > :57:36.minutes a day, it would save the National Health Service millions. In
:57:36. > :57:42.Reading, they are saving money for local schools and saving lives,
:57:42. > :57:49.counting each step of 20 -- 33,000 people. That would save six lives
:57:49. > :57:56.every year. Chris Huhne what from prison after serving two months for
:57:56. > :57:59.lying about driving too fast. His dad drove him home. The Thames
:57:59. > :58:07.Valley -- the Thames Valley crankiness and finally got itself a
:58:07. > :58:16.chauffeur and bad publicity over expensive. The police are trying to
:58:16. > :58:22.recruit new Polish speaking PCSO's. South Central ambulance say the mean
:58:22. > :58:31.annual -- say their engines will be told of when training. In Hampshire,
:58:31. > :58:38.to police patrol cars were used to escort a mobility scooter. A
:58:38. > :58:44.passerby found the convoy. You've got to love that someone stuck there
:58:44. > :58:49.and Eddie Carter recalled that, haven't you? Technology, it is
:58:49. > :58:55.great, but could we do it a bit more walking question might -- a bit more
:58:55. > :59:03.walking? My wife would say I could do with a rest from my technology.
:59:03. > :59:07.The sweet and drink, don't tweet and walk the dog. And not convinced
:59:08. > :59:11.technologies making us healthier. I think we're becoming obsessed with
:59:11. > :59:15.immediacy and not thinking and reflecting enough upon life. I am
:59:15. > :59:18.not a huge fan of technology, in some ways. Clearly there are bits of
:59:18. > :59:25.it that are great, not least of which someone filming something
:59:25. > :59:29.rather daft on the road. But we are all connected everywhere. We have
:59:29. > :59:35.statistics. We have solar panels on some of those are nuances. It is
:59:35. > :59:40.saving the planet, isn't it? That is a good thing. Let's not overdo it
:59:40. > :59:45.with how much solar panels save the planet, but yes, it is technology
:59:45. > :59:51.that is making a positive impact, and that is to be celebrated.
:59:51. > :59:59.only space committee, Alger got a Mac -- you are only space
:59:59. > :00:02.committee, Alger? I am. I have any lot of work on technology, and and
:00:02. > :00:07.have seen the positive effects it can have on learning, I can see the
:00:07. > :00:12.way it has disrupted some things. Economically, there are bad things,
:00:12. > :00:18.but the away out weighed by the good things.