:01:18. > :01:28.a �10,000 pay rise? Some of them already make "loadsamoney" with
:01:28. > :01:28.
:01:28. > :42:17.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2449 seconds
:42:17. > :42:21.outside jobs - are we really all in I'm Peter Henley. Today: Should we
:42:21. > :42:24.be paying our MPs more? They already make a tidy sum and many make
:42:24. > :42:30.thousands more from outside work. But are they getting the going
:42:30. > :42:34.rate? First, let's meet the politicians will be with me for the
:42:34. > :42:36.next 20 minutes. Alan Whitehead is the Labour MP for Southampton Test
:42:36. > :42:41.and Gerald Vernon-Jackson is the Liberal Democrat leader of
:42:41. > :42:44.Portsmouth City Council. Portsmouth is in the news because of the
:42:44. > :42:49.Portsmouth South MP Mike Hancock and the disciplinary committee that he
:42:49. > :42:52.faces. You're a senior Liberal Democrat and have been around a long
:42:53. > :42:58.time. Do you think what's happening with Mike is a fallout from the
:42:58. > :43:03.questions inquiry? Are Liberal Democrat stealing badly with women
:43:03. > :43:06.or is it just down to this one case? I think what's in the news is
:43:06. > :43:12.the opening of the Mary Rose Museum and things like that are much more
:43:12. > :43:18.on people's minds. There are always issues with people who are in the
:43:18. > :43:21.public eye. They're always issues with Mike Hancock, it seems. He's
:43:21. > :43:25.never been charged with anything, as far as I know, so I think that's
:43:25. > :43:29.your supposition and not one out by reality. The charges coming from
:43:29. > :43:36.your party leader, Nick Clegg. That's the disciplinary procedure
:43:36. > :43:41.which he'll face on Monday. If he was an independent MP and lost the
:43:41. > :43:48.whip, could he continue as a Liberal Democrat councillor on the City
:43:48. > :43:54.Council? It's entirely hypothetical. We don't know what any outcome of
:43:54. > :43:57.any discussions are going to be. What I do know is that this is a
:43:57. > :44:03.civil case that has been launched by one person trying to get some money
:44:03. > :44:06.from somebody else. That could happen to any of us. It's only about
:44:07. > :44:10.a financial arrangement. It could happen to anyone. Peter, it could
:44:10. > :44:13.happen to you. The police have looked at this and decided there is
:44:13. > :44:19.no case to answer. No, they said there was not sufficient evidence to
:44:19. > :44:24.bring a prosecution. And they are not proceeding. Is it one of those
:44:24. > :44:29.things that happens to MPs? You get vexatious constituents and you've
:44:29. > :44:34.constantly got to be dealing with the public, as teachers do and as
:44:34. > :44:43.journalists do. Or do you think, without prejudging the situation,
:44:43. > :44:47.MPs should be cut a bit of slack? are still in somewhat hypothetical
:44:47. > :44:51.circumstances but there is, I think, a strong duty of care that MPs have
:44:51. > :44:56.in terms of how they deal with their constituents and how they deal with
:44:56. > :45:00.people who come to see them and what transpires. If that is what is at
:45:00. > :45:05.the heart of this issue, then there certainly is something to talk about
:45:06. > :45:10.concerning how and please do deal with their constituents. -- how MPs
:45:11. > :45:13.do deal. I would hope that anyone who comes to see me is happy with
:45:14. > :45:19.what transpires, whether I can help them out on the particular issue or
:45:19. > :45:22.not. I think that's a very important principle but we shall see when the
:45:22. > :45:30.inquiry takes place and the disciplinary proceedings, if they do
:45:30. > :45:35.take place, what comes out. suggestion is that because a writ
:45:35. > :45:41.has been issued he's got to go before his party leader.
:45:42. > :45:46.proceedings from that point of view are similar, in a way, to someone
:45:46. > :45:49.being referred to the House of Commons standards committee, where
:45:49. > :45:55.you may not have been guilty or charged with criminal offence but
:45:55. > :45:57.there is perhaps an issue about how your conduct has been in view of
:45:57. > :46:03.your elected circumstance and that's what I think that's about in
:46:03. > :46:07.essence. And in this case, this has already been there and the
:46:07. > :46:14.Parliamentary standards body has decided they would not proceed and
:46:14. > :46:18.make no judgement about Mike. are not committee. Indeed. That's
:46:18. > :46:23.the problem, I think, in terms of how Parliament deals with its own
:46:23. > :46:27.members. It's how you draw the line between what is a member's personal
:46:27. > :46:32.life and what is a member's responsibility as far as his role as
:46:32. > :46:35.an MP is concerned but there is, it seems to me, a very clear
:46:35. > :46:41.relationship between doing the right thing by your constituents and your
:46:41. > :46:45.role as an MP. I think that is what is going to be judged in the future
:46:45. > :46:51.and whether Mike then sits as an independent or whether he has the
:46:51. > :46:56.whip withdrawn and decides to stand down or, indeed, whether the whole
:46:56. > :47:01.discussion proceeds and he then, should that turn out well for him,
:47:01. > :47:10.comes back as a Liberal Democrat MP is a Vermeer. He's got health issues
:47:10. > :47:17.and hasn't been in Parliament for a while. -- is up in the air. Anybody
:47:17. > :47:24.who knows Mike there won't -- knows there won't be a by-election.
:47:24. > :47:29.won't happen or you wouldn't stand if it did? It won't happen.That is
:47:29. > :47:32.the sound of a door being left open. We've heard a lot about plans to cut
:47:32. > :47:35.immigration but sometimes they can have unintended consequences. This
:47:35. > :47:40.week Vince Cable was warning that restrictions on student visas could
:47:40. > :47:45.be putting students from countries like India and harming the colony.
:47:45. > :47:51.There's also a crisis looming down on the farm amongst seasonal workers
:47:51. > :47:56.from Eastern Europe. The seasonal agricultural workers
:47:56. > :47:59.scheme is only open to Rumanian and Bulgarian workers. It runs out at
:47:59. > :48:03.the end of the year and that's also when those countries get access to
:48:03. > :48:08.the whole of the EU jobs market. The fear is that they'll either look for
:48:08. > :48:12.more permanent jobs here or else jobs closer to home - places like
:48:12. > :48:16.Germany. It could be the last we'll see of the 21,000 people who come
:48:16. > :48:20.over here each season. That's a third of the temporary fruit farm
:48:21. > :48:26.workforce. Joining us now from Birmingham is James Hallett, the
:48:26. > :48:29.Chief Executive of the British Growers Association. Welcome to the
:48:29. > :48:38.programme. Tell us about this situation. Are these people who come
:48:38. > :48:44.regularly as migrant workers, and if so why should they stop? We are
:48:44. > :48:46.concerned that while this scheme has run for nearly 60 years with various
:48:46. > :48:51.different populations across Europe, there is potential it will end at
:48:51. > :48:57.the end of this year. The concern we have is that this industry is
:48:57. > :49:00.completely reliant upon these workers coming in and the fact that
:49:00. > :49:04.at the end of this year they will have employment rights across the
:49:04. > :49:07.country in all sorts of different sectors means we are worried that
:49:07. > :49:12.they will end up going into other industries and horticulture will be
:49:12. > :49:15.left without a very important part of its workforce. Are you saying the
:49:15. > :49:18.only reason they worked on all of that fruit picking, a lot of it on
:49:18. > :49:23.the South coast of England, was because they couldn't get any other
:49:23. > :49:27.sort of work? This scheme is licensed and managed scheme of
:49:27. > :49:31.migration to allow students come into this country for a maximum of
:49:31. > :49:36.six months at a time and work in agriculture. The vast majority of
:49:36. > :49:41.them work and horticulture, planting and harvesting salads, vegetables
:49:41. > :49:51.and fruit, and at the end of this year there is the opportunity for
:49:51. > :49:52.
:49:52. > :49:55.Bulgarian and Romanian - whether students are not -- or not - to come
:49:55. > :50:01.into this country. We are concerned we will lose a real bedrock of our
:50:01. > :50:04.workforce. What are you asking to happen? We would like to see an
:50:04. > :50:09.expanded scheme put into place allowing for students to come in
:50:09. > :50:13.from countries such as Ukraine, where there is a very large
:50:13. > :50:18.agricultural student population, to continue working under the same kind
:50:18. > :50:24.of licensing and management because, very simply, this is an industry
:50:24. > :50:28.which is currently worth �3.7 billion nationally and we got
:50:28. > :50:33.opportunities to grow through an enormous amount of import
:50:33. > :50:38.replacement, in particular. We have a trade deficit with �4 billion. We
:50:38. > :50:48.don't want the industry to be stuck and not be able to take advantage of
:50:48. > :50:50.
:50:50. > :50:54.that opportunity by employment restrictions. What we would like to
:50:54. > :51:02.do is to recruit UK citizens to do this work but the fact remains that
:51:02. > :51:06.we can't find enough of them so we do have to go further afield. The
:51:06. > :51:13.countries around the borders of Europe, such as Ukraine, are ideal
:51:13. > :51:17.solution. We need to ensure we got this continuation of the bedrock of
:51:17. > :51:21.students that we need. Let's turn to our two politicians will stop it
:51:21. > :51:24.looks like an unintended consequence. This is obviously about
:51:24. > :51:31.EU integration but the business of limiting students seems to have
:51:31. > :51:36.caused real problems, doesn't it? think as far students are concerned,
:51:36. > :51:40.the question how visas are issued and over what period, and to what
:51:40. > :51:46.extent that means that students perhaps go else where in the world
:51:46. > :51:50.for studies instead of the UK, is a realist you for the UK economy and
:51:50. > :52:00.the higher education. It's potentially shooting our economy in
:52:00. > :52:04.
:52:04. > :52:08.the foot. -- a real issue. It illustrates that the whole question
:52:08. > :52:14.of migrant labour and how it works is actually much more complex than
:52:14. > :52:21.some people would have us believe. These people who are coming over to
:52:21. > :52:24.the UK to take part in horticulture, you could say, are
:52:24. > :52:29.parallel to the highly skilled migrants that we bring in across the
:52:29. > :52:33.world for jobs that don't have the UK people easily available to do
:52:33. > :52:40.them. We provide work permits and so on for those people but, of course,
:52:40. > :52:47.that is, located by the accession -- that is complicated by the accession
:52:47. > :52:53.of new countries coming into the equal right to work across Europe
:52:53. > :52:57.next year. It's a pretty convex issue. People are concerned about
:52:57. > :53:02.immigration, aren't they? Is it just not thought through our other big
:53:02. > :53:07.tensions? With the higher education thing, this is one of the things
:53:07. > :53:10.Britain does brilliantly. It's a huge export market for the UK, where
:53:10. > :53:14.we have people coming from abroad to come and learn in our educational
:53:14. > :53:18.establishments in Britain and they bring in a huge amount of money.
:53:18. > :53:25.What we've got to get right is that if somebody is here on a student
:53:25. > :53:28.Visa, that's for them to stay. But if they're here to study and go home
:53:28. > :53:38.at the end of it, that's how it's meant to work and we've got to be
:53:38. > :53:39.
:53:39. > :53:43.careful to keep that bit of British industry - cos that's what it is -
:53:43. > :53:50.protected because that creates wealth for so many people. In
:53:50. > :53:56.Portsmouth and Southampton and all over the South. John, do you think
:53:56. > :53:59.that there will be serious problems if this isn't maintained? I think
:53:59. > :54:03.there will be serious problems, not least the fact that there are
:54:03. > :54:07.businesses all over the South and across the economy who are holding
:54:07. > :54:14.back on investment decisions which, in essence, is holding back under
:54:14. > :54:19.the limit of the rural economy. It is a serious problem. -- holding
:54:19. > :54:22.back the development of the rural community. Countries like Bulgaria
:54:22. > :54:30.and Romania and others are gritting for next year. We haven't got time
:54:30. > :54:34.to wait. -- recruiting for next year. We need the creation of more
:54:34. > :54:37.permanent jobs based upon seasonal labour which is the bedrock of the
:54:37. > :54:42.economy so we reread need to have this labour coming in, continuing to
:54:42. > :54:49.come in, because this is a rural economy with enormous opportunity to
:54:49. > :54:54.grow. Kenyan MPs voted themselves a
:54:54. > :54:59.whopping 50 descent pay increase this week. That means they now earn
:54:59. > :55:03.more than members of our own mother of Parliaments. -- 50%. There are
:55:03. > :55:06.suggestions that our MPs' money should go up as well. Possibly not
:55:06. > :55:09.the best time to be publishing the latest details of what our elected
:55:09. > :55:19.representatives take home in addition to their parliamentary pay.
:55:19. > :55:19.
:55:19. > :55:24.That also came out this week. It ranged from John Howard's earning of
:55:24. > :55:33.�100 for two performances on the church organ to Nicholas Owen is's
:55:33. > :55:38.almost �300,000 for company directorships. -- Nicolas Soames's.
:55:38. > :55:42.Are you ready to serve? We are looking for men and women - mostly
:55:42. > :55:47.men, though - to join an elite group of 650 parliamentarians to run the
:55:47. > :55:53.country. It's a five-year contract with the option for endless renewal
:55:53. > :55:57.if your face fits. Absolutely no previous experience necessary. The
:55:57. > :56:02.chances of promotion are good. Someone has to be Prime Minister!
:56:02. > :56:07.Some public speaking is involved. The part you play will be even more
:56:07. > :56:14.meaningful... And ability to sound plausible on the Today programme
:56:14. > :56:18.would be preferred. A salary of �65,000 plus a fat severance package
:56:18. > :56:25.and a really good pension make this a must have jobs. Your country needs
:56:25. > :56:29.you. Hands up if you fancy an above inflation pay rise. Hands up if you
:56:29. > :56:34.haven't had one for several years. Hands up if you're not likely to see
:56:34. > :56:42.one in the foreseeable. We all know times are hard but we're all in it
:56:42. > :56:47.together... Or are we? Because those we elect - our MPs - believe they
:56:47. > :56:55.deserve thousands more than they currently get. So as most of us are
:56:55. > :57:00.sliding backwards, MPs' salaries are set to soar. At the moment and MP
:57:00. > :57:05.owns �65,000 a year but the Independent Parliamentary standards
:57:05. > :57:09.authority, who set MPs' pay, are expected to recommend a hefty uplift
:57:10. > :57:13.of around �10,000. There is even speculation in some quarters it
:57:13. > :57:20.could be as much as 20,000. Not good timing when public sector workers
:57:20. > :57:24.are getting nothing and inflation are swallowing the rest. I think the
:57:24. > :57:26.fact there are voices asking for a �20,000 pay increases highly
:57:26. > :57:31.insensitive and shows just how completely out of touch with the
:57:31. > :57:34.public people are. The whole country has been told to tighten its belt
:57:35. > :57:38.and friendly politicians have never been more unpopular than they are
:57:38. > :57:43.today, so I frankly think this proposal could cause quite
:57:43. > :57:48.considerable anger across the country. So you're saying that if
:57:48. > :57:52.you get UKIP MPs over the road, they will not be taking a pay rise in
:57:52. > :57:56.2015? Well, they will be elected in 2015 and whatever their starting
:57:56. > :58:01.salary is is what it is. I don't think this pay rise will go through
:58:01. > :58:07.because people will realise the public is massively opposed to it.
:58:07. > :58:16.Pay rises for MPs were hard enough before the P POSIX pence is gamble
:58:16. > :58:19.but -- the MPs' expenses scandal. They are among the very best paid
:58:19. > :58:24.across the European Union. There is absolutely no public appetite for
:58:24. > :58:27.increasing MPs' pay. The British public have said that MPs at the
:58:27. > :58:32.moment are paid broadly fair salary. That should be the end of
:58:32. > :58:41.it. It's true that you don't need any qualifications or experience to
:58:41. > :58:47.be an MP so is 60, 75,000 or even 85,000 a year the market rate for
:58:47. > :58:49.the job they do? I would be delighted if I could work with
:58:49. > :58:53.candidates with no previous experience or qualifications and
:58:53. > :58:57.place them in a role-playing 85,000. That really is quite
:58:57. > :59:04.amazing. That would be a good day at the office? Absolutely, yes it
:59:04. > :59:06.would. So what voters thinkis it time we roared wobbly our
:59:06. > :59:10.parliamentarians? I feel like the timing is a bit of considering there
:59:10. > :59:17.have been so many cuts to public sector jobs, especially in the NHS.
:59:17. > :59:21.I think though timing could be better. If you don't pay the going
:59:21. > :59:26.rate for the job you won't get people with high enough intellect. I
:59:26. > :59:30.think it's a bit of a jump, 30%, but some people may say they should have
:59:30. > :59:37.perhaps at the rises earlier. people haven't had pay rises for
:59:37. > :59:42.three years, have they? It's not on, is it? No. And you can't trust them
:59:42. > :59:47.anyway. Any increase will be delayed until after the next general
:59:47. > :59:51.election but there's no hiding the fact that MPs are in for a tough
:59:51. > :00:01.sell. It's trying to persuade the public,
:00:01. > :00:04.isn't it? What is it about resisting paying you more? I think MPs are in
:00:04. > :00:08.a rather difficult position as far as this latest proposal is concerned
:00:08. > :00:15.because it doesn't come from MPs themselves. Previously MPs were
:00:15. > :00:20.responsible for deciding what they were paid. This is the independent
:00:20. > :00:25.Parliamentary standards authority. Do you think it was a bit mean
:00:25. > :00:29.saying you haven't got any previous experience? That's true in a sense,
:00:29. > :00:35.in as much as the electorate elect who wants to as far as MPs. That's
:00:35. > :00:44.one thing we ought to remember. It's not a job where someone is appointed
:00:44. > :00:54.because they are the most qualified and if they don't get the money then
:00:54. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:02.they won't apply. The electorate elect them. People need to be
:01:02. > :01:06.realistic about the pressures on people in the public sector who
:01:06. > :01:09.haven't had pay rises for several years. We had an independent
:01:09. > :01:14.recommendation, just like MPs did, recommending that we increased our
:01:14. > :01:20.salaries, and we turned it down. We said it was unacceptable when public
:01:20. > :01:24.sector pay has been frozen. point there was the public don't
:01:24. > :01:30.trust you and then your setting up an independent body, they make a
:01:30. > :01:34.recommendation and you say you can't do it because of public opinion.
:01:34. > :01:42.We've got people in my counsel who had a pay freeze for three years and
:01:42. > :01:47.why shouldn't we do the same? -- council. I know our council pays a
:01:47. > :01:50.cabinet member for children and families, who looks after 68
:01:50. > :01:56.schools, children's social services and the youth service, and we pay
:01:56. > :02:02.them �18,000 a year including expenses. We pay the director
:02:02. > :02:06.�100,000 a year. So I think there is an issue that sometimes for some
:02:06. > :02:09.people in local government, the pay is really very minimal for the risk
:02:09. > :02:12.about that person put themselves at trying to make sure that they make
:02:12. > :02:17.sure that all the schools, all the social services and youth services
:02:17. > :02:21.work properly. Now our regular round-up of the
:02:21. > :02:28.political begin the South in 60 seconds. -- political week in the
:02:28. > :02:31.South. The five police forces in the South
:02:31. > :02:34.West are to share the cost of fighting terrorism. The deal was
:02:34. > :02:38.struck at a meeting of police and crime commissioners. Meanwhile
:02:38. > :02:45.Hampshire firm has been offending software that spies on people's
:02:45. > :02:48.e-mails. The company says it's a legitimate security product. There
:02:49. > :02:51.are claims it is supporting repression. In the hands of a
:02:51. > :02:56.repressive state like Bahrain it will be used to crackdown on
:02:56. > :03:00.dissidents. Boris Johnson wants a new Oxford college to be named in
:03:00. > :03:04.honour of Margaret Thatcher. In 1985 she was denied an honorary degree
:03:04. > :03:08.because academics opposed to education policies. It was revealed
:03:08. > :03:11.oxygen schools are missing out on �2.5 million from the pupil premium
:03:11. > :03:16.because more than 4000 children who qualify for free school meals
:03:16. > :03:18.haven't registered. And the old argument about the
:03:18. > :03:23.undeserving north resurfaced as George Osborne announced another �35
:03:23. > :03:31.billion for Liverpool. Southampton's port is also preparing
:03:31. > :03:34.to dredge for super ships but without state aid.
:03:34. > :03:38.Portsmouth - the council are putting money into dredging, aren't they,
:03:38. > :03:41.but that's because you're the commercial operator? Yes, we run the
:03:41. > :03:47.commercial port and make a profit which means that our council tax is
:03:47. > :03:50.the lowest in Hampshire. We run it as a business. Is that state aid?
:03:50. > :03:54.Know because we're making a profit and that goes back to taxpayers, not
:03:54. > :03:59.the other way round. What George Osborne is doing in Liverpool...
:03:59. > :04:05.Looks like its state aid. Have you given up on this fight now? They
:04:05. > :04:10.seem to be getting all the money up there and not in Southampton.
:04:10. > :04:15.paid some of the regional grant that they got for the turn around port
:04:15. > :04:18.back. There is still an issue as to whether the rest goes back. The
:04:18. > :04:22.whole business revolves around whether it's a level playing field
:04:22. > :04:26.for ports and container terminals and cruise terminals across the
:04:27. > :04:31.country. That was the original discussion between Southampton and
:04:31. > :04:34.Portsmouth. No one was trying to put anybody else out of business but
:04:34. > :04:38.whether it was a level playing field between those different places as
:04:38. > :04:47.far as regional aid, state aid and European aid was concerned. It
:04:47. > :04:51.clearly wasn't in the pace of Liverpool. -- case. That's the
:04:51. > :04:57.Sunday Politics in the South. Thanks to my guests for this week, Alan