:01:15. > :01:25.services? With one elected commissioner running fire, police
:01:25. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :36:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2112 seconds
:36:37. > :36:47.and ambulance. The controversial Ism' Peter Henley. Are magistrates
:36:47. > :36:48.
:36:48. > :36:52.being too lenient with benefit fraudsters? More on that shortly.
:36:52. > :37:02.First, let's meet the two politicians who will be with us,
:37:02. > :37:04.
:37:04. > :37:10.Peter Lamb is the leader of the Labour Group on crawly Council. A
:37:10. > :37:15.lot of departments settling bit by bit. This is the settlement we
:37:15. > :37:20.should not have had. We know that the Chancellor has had to look
:37:20. > :37:28.further out. Economic growth started along the bottom and looking more
:37:28. > :37:32.healthy, but there is more savings to be found. Everyone knows that the
:37:33. > :37:37.country was overspent and there will be more savings to be found.
:37:37. > :37:46.These already nasty cuts? necessarily. There is lots of work
:37:46. > :37:50.to be done. You can't do all these things instantaneous. I don't think
:37:51. > :37:53.they have to be nasty. Would we like to be doing them? No. But there is
:37:53. > :37:57.no question the country knows and understands that we have to spend
:37:58. > :38:01.less as a Government. We cannot carry on borrowing the way we are.
:38:01. > :38:05.The deficit is down, but not far enough.
:38:05. > :38:11.Peter, why do you think the cuts are happening? Well, it is as you said
:38:11. > :38:15.earlier, these aren't the cults that should have had to happen. The plan
:38:15. > :38:21.was to reduce the deficit and growth will kick off in the private sector
:38:21. > :38:25.and we will deal with it and it hasn't worked. If you take the
:38:25. > :38:31.depand out of the system, less people are willing to spend. We
:38:31. > :38:38.should be trying to get more people into work.
:38:38. > :38:41.60,000 jobs lost in the public sector, but 1. 2 million made in the
:38:41. > :38:46.public sector. That sounds like a success.
:38:47. > :38:50.You have people going down to lower paid work. You can talk about jobs
:38:50. > :38:58.all you like, there is less money going into the pocket of the
:38:58. > :39:04.taxpayer. You are saying you would rather have people unemployed than
:39:04. > :39:08.in work. It is getting people into reasonable paid work. You have got
:39:08. > :39:13.to invest and we are not seeing that.
:39:13. > :39:17.You are involved in things in crawly Council. If it was a 10% Local
:39:17. > :39:23.Government cut, the sort of things that would have to go are going to
:39:23. > :39:27.be the really nasty cuts, aren't they? This year we are looking at a
:39:27. > :39:32.�2 million cut. We have had to deal with the cuts over the last three
:39:32. > :39:34.years. When Cameron's Government came in, they said time and time
:39:34. > :39:38.again Local Government is the most efficient part of Government. Those
:39:38. > :39:41.speeches are still on their website. They believe it. Why is it we have
:39:42. > :39:47.had to take the brunt of the cuts if the same department they believe to
:39:47. > :39:51.be the most efficient? 30% has gone and you can see the state of the
:39:51. > :39:55.roads and the state of the hedgerows. We have never seen more
:39:55. > :39:58.pressure than before and we are having to save more money. If you
:39:58. > :40:01.are going to say there is efficiencies to be made somewhere,
:40:01. > :40:05.look at the departments which are less efficient because Local
:40:05. > :40:09.Government isn't it. Local Government is efficient? A quarter
:40:09. > :40:13.of all public spending, you cannot reduce the deficit down so we have a
:40:13. > :40:15.balance of payments that is right and proper if you don't cut across
:40:15. > :40:19.the piece. With a quarter of all spending going on Local Government,
:40:19. > :40:23.more has to be done. Hampshire County Council, I am sure there are
:40:23. > :40:26.fantastic offices and great politicians making things happen,
:40:26. > :40:31.but in Hampshire they started the cuts early. They knew they were
:40:31. > :40:35.going to happen. They started taking a out layers of management. We don't
:40:35. > :40:38.have potholes in Hampshire. Our verges are cut. And they think they
:40:38. > :40:45.can do more and I really applaud that.
:40:45. > :40:47.If anyone comes across a pothole they know who to talk to! We have
:40:48. > :40:52.the largest percentage reduction in that time.
:40:52. > :41:02.We will be giving out George's number for the pot shoals shortly!
:41:02. > :41:07.
:41:07. > :41:11.-- pot shoals holes -- potholes short shortly! This exercise
:41:11. > :41:15.involving Hampshire fire and ambulance this week demonstrated the
:41:15. > :41:21.amount of co-operation that's going on. Paramedics and firefighters with
:41:21. > :41:31.search and rescue skills working together at a scenario involving the
:41:31. > :41:33.
:41:33. > :41:38.rescue of casualties from an explosion in a block of flats. The
:41:38. > :41:41.minister got an enthusiastic response. When I spoke to the former
:41:41. > :41:46.detective, he was clear he didn't want to take responsibility for the
:41:46. > :41:50.other services. When I first joined the police
:41:50. > :41:57.force, they were talking about doing this. Why don't you have one role
:41:57. > :42:00.room? One head quarters and run training room? It all makes sense to
:42:01. > :42:04.embed emergency services into one organisation, but it isn't for a PCC
:42:04. > :42:09.role. Why is that? You are the person who
:42:09. > :42:13.is the new thing, the accountable thing? I think there should be on
:42:13. > :42:19.aect elected official in charge -- an elected official in charge, but
:42:19. > :42:25.these things take time after the next election expand the EPCC role
:42:25. > :42:30.and let the electorate speak. Don't give me two extra jobs that the
:42:30. > :42:34.electorate didn't ask me to do. On the fireside they say, " We are
:42:34. > :42:38.better than these new commissioners coming in." Ing a matter of time
:42:38. > :42:41.until fire authorities go. We all know that. The PCCs are in place and
:42:41. > :42:45.police authorities have gone, fire authorities are going to go too.
:42:45. > :42:50.Let's have a more visible, accountable person running the Fire
:42:50. > :42:55.Service. I'm surprised it hasn't happened before. It makes sense to
:42:55. > :42:59.have run Gaddafi earnance regime with one person above it in --
:42:59. > :43:05.governance regime with one person above it in charge.
:43:05. > :43:11.Strong words there from the police and crime commissioner. The fire
:43:11. > :43:13.authorities in general are on the way out? I don't see that. I am sure
:43:13. > :43:17.the fire authorities could be more efficient and some are run by
:43:17. > :43:21.counties. Some are run by fire authorities, but I don't think
:43:21. > :43:25.that's the issue here. The issue here is whether or not you can merge
:43:25. > :43:28.the governance and the rest of fire, police and ambulance and I don't
:43:28. > :43:33.think that's practical and I don't think it will give up the savings
:43:33. > :43:35.that some people think it would. The savings could be found in back
:43:35. > :43:39.office and procurement and training and things like that, but you would
:43:39. > :43:44.say that some of that is happening. Where would you draw the line in
:43:44. > :43:49.going further and affecting the operation operational, doing the
:43:49. > :43:52.same job, two different hats? is more that can be done. We are
:43:52. > :43:57.sharing procurement, HR, occupational health with the
:43:57. > :44:00.Hampshire Police. We are doing that. Sew we've started early. We started
:44:00. > :44:04.making our savings early. We are efficient and we have driven out the
:44:04. > :44:07.inefficiencies and we continue to do that and there is more that can be
:44:08. > :44:13.done and sharing premises is one way and we are doing that in Southampton
:44:13. > :44:20.with the police and we could work closely with the Ambulance Service.
:44:20. > :44:26.We are co respooned respooneding -- co reds sponding. So that's
:44:26. > :44:32.happening. That could go further. A full merger pf police, fire and
:44:32. > :44:38.ambulance is impractical. About What about a vehicle going to
:44:38. > :44:42.a road traffic accident with people from all three services? I will give
:44:42. > :44:45.you a example of how that would work. You have a road traffic
:44:45. > :44:50.collision and you send the Fire Service to cut someone from their
:44:50. > :44:54.car. There is a casualty. The casualty needs to be evacuated and
:44:54. > :44:59.you need to look after the traffic and the congestion that's caused by
:44:59. > :45:03.an accident. You are going to need another vehicle. You couldn't, I
:45:03. > :45:07.think, in reality. He says it happens in France.
:45:07. > :45:11.isn't another country that has police and fire merged in the
:45:11. > :45:14.developed world. There isn't another one. There isn't an example he can
:45:14. > :45:19.cite. There are in some other places and that's because of security
:45:19. > :45:22.issues, but there are no other police and fire that's merged across
:45:22. > :45:26.other countries. Your fire authority needs to be more
:45:26. > :45:29.efficient. There are fewer fires than there used to be and it is
:45:29. > :45:35.about prevention? It is. And that's what we are spending most of our
:45:35. > :45:36.time doing. We are trying to prevent ins stances in the first place and
:45:37. > :45:41.putting sprinklers into new buildings and student accommodation
:45:41. > :45:46.and the rest and that means we don't have to respond the way we used to.
:45:46. > :45:49.#40e % less response than -- 40% less response than ten years ago.
:45:49. > :45:53.There is an issue about what the cost of the fire service is when
:45:53. > :45:57.response is lower, but you have to take into account the amount of
:45:57. > :46:01.resource put into prevention, it is not you don't respond as much as you
:46:01. > :46:08.used to. That could be something done by
:46:08. > :46:18.local councils, but it can, keeping these silos... Why would that be
:46:18. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:21.cheaper? If the councils suggested you put spripg -- sprinklers into
:46:21. > :46:25.buildings? If you are doing the same thing and there is duplication, it
:46:25. > :46:28.needs to be driven out. If there are ways you can work closely together,
:46:28. > :46:34.that needs to be done, but taking a it from one and giving to another
:46:34. > :46:40.doesn't make a saving. Isn't the Fire Service one of those
:46:40. > :46:44.last areas of inefficiency? It is separate, unions, who seem to have a
:46:44. > :46:50.great deal of strength? We just don't need it? I think probably
:46:50. > :46:53.that's a rather unfair characterisation. I may well need a
:46:53. > :47:00.Fire Service at some stage. If you look at the success of the Fire
:47:00. > :47:04.Service over ten years, driving downturn outs. Something is going
:47:04. > :47:09.right. Telling people how to prez vent fires, going into schools --
:47:09. > :47:13.prevent fires, going into schools with proper teachers, is somehow on
:47:13. > :47:16.the edge. This is the stuff that stops fires happening. I really
:47:16. > :47:20.don't think they are poor value for money. They have stopped fires
:47:20. > :47:24.happening. That isn't to say that I don't agree that there is costs that
:47:24. > :47:31.can be driven out. Across the developed world, you will not find
:47:31. > :47:38.police, fire and ambulance merged together. In the Third World, you
:47:38. > :47:42.might. Not in the developed world. In many places, you will find the
:47:42. > :47:45.Ambulance Service and the Fire Service merged specifically. So that
:47:45. > :47:50.nearly all firefighters have paramedic qualification and then
:47:51. > :47:55.there is, think, in the long-term something to consider about whether
:47:55. > :47:58.we could do something with those servicesle. Do I think the Fire
:47:58. > :48:03.Service is inefficient? Well, the record suggests not.
:48:03. > :48:09.Peter Lamb, it is about saving money here and is this the area they
:48:09. > :48:15.should be looking for savings? in terms of merging departments,
:48:15. > :48:21.that's something to look into and there are back office efficiencies
:48:21. > :48:24.you can come up with. The idea of hand this over to the police and
:48:24. > :48:28.crime commissioners, this is out to lunch.
:48:28. > :48:32.They are the ones pressing for this. The public gave them the support of
:48:32. > :48:36.85% of them staying at home on election day last November. It is
:48:36. > :48:46.hardly as they they have got a strong mandate for their existing
:48:46. > :48:51.
:48:51. > :48:54.role never mind taking a on roles they are unqualified for. No one
:48:54. > :48:56.wants to see the ambulance and the Fire Service relegated to second
:48:56. > :49:01.class roles in the emergency services.
:49:01. > :49:06.Is that going to stop the thing happening? What, stop the merger
:49:06. > :49:10.going ahead? Yes. There is no merger going ahead. I
:49:10. > :49:15.was sitting behind him and the record may prove me wrong. He said
:49:15. > :49:19.the idea was being considered and one of those supposed floated in the
:49:19. > :49:24.Sunday papers was PCCs? Well, it was floated in the Sunday papers, but
:49:24. > :49:32.there is no such consideration going on in the Home Office which are
:49:32. > :49:36.responsible for the three services. Not before the election then?
:49:36. > :49:42.is some reason to do so, I don't think you will see testimony
:49:42. > :49:47.tomorrow. P -- I don't think you will see it tomorrow.
:49:47. > :49:50.It seems to be a little way off. Now, it is high on the Government
:49:50. > :49:56.and tabloids agenda, benefit fraud is a complex and growing problem. It
:49:56. > :50:00.is hard to detect and hard to prove and local authorities say that even
:50:00. > :50:10.when they take people to court, magistrates don't take the problem
:50:10. > :50:13.
:50:13. > :50:18.Year-on-year, local authorities budgets are being trimmed back.
:50:18. > :50:23.Benefit fraud is something this serious about -- something they are
:50:23. > :50:26.serious about tackling. Some say they are fighting a court system
:50:26. > :50:30.unsympathetic to their flight and the numbers are staggering. The
:50:30. > :50:37.country loses millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of pounds to
:50:37. > :50:40.benefit fraudsters. Last year, we lost �5 billion to them. At west
:50:40. > :50:45.Berkshire Council, they hand out �51 million of council and housing
:50:45. > :50:51.benefit. And every year of that amount of money, �1 million is taken
:50:51. > :50:55.by the benefit from youed fraudsters. The numbers involved are
:50:55. > :51:01.huge, just how huge, we may never know. People who carry out benefit
:51:01. > :51:05.fraud think it is a victimless crime. It comes as no surprise that
:51:05. > :51:11.West Berkshire Council doesn't see it this way.
:51:11. > :51:16.People look at this as if it is the council's money, it is the people's
:51:16. > :51:20.money. We can't spend that money because we have been defrauded.
:51:20. > :51:26.Alan Law is the councillor who over's benefit payments. He is clear
:51:26. > :51:34.what he would do with the money that's being stolen from local
:51:34. > :51:38.taxpayers? I would employ 30 careers and 30 classroom assistants and
:51:38. > :51:42.probably repair all the potholes in West Berkshire.
:51:42. > :51:46.Benefits are there to help support the people that need them. It is
:51:46. > :51:49.cheating everybody. It is disgusting. I'm anti-it.
:51:49. > :51:53.Anybody that steals money should pay the penalties.
:51:53. > :52:02.But who decides what the penalties should be? The more serious cases
:52:02. > :52:07.end up in the crown court. Berkshire Council investigated 300 people they
:52:07. > :52:10.suspected of benefit fraud. They took legal against 65, but only one
:52:10. > :52:18.ended up at Reading Crown Court. She was given a 14 month prison
:52:18. > :52:21.sentence. She had nearly �120,000. That's like an interest free loan.
:52:21. > :52:27.Normal working people have to go to the bank if they want a loan and
:52:27. > :52:31.they have to pay interest. Tracey Pembroke lived here and for
:52:31. > :52:36.eight years she claimed she was a single-parent living on her own. She
:52:36. > :52:41.lied. She was married and had a bank account. There were two particular
:52:41. > :52:44.debits from the bank account that mounted to �7,000 and we found later
:52:44. > :52:48.debits from her account that were made from the Maldives, that's
:52:48. > :52:54.�7,000 that went on a nice holiday at the Maldives.
:52:54. > :53:03.The council says the jailing of Tracey Pembroke was a rare victory.
:53:03. > :53:08.It thinks benefit fraudsters get an easy ride at the Magistrates' Court.
:53:08. > :53:15.They hear a hard luck story and sentence accordingly.
:53:15. > :53:21.Most get away withes 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000 of taxpayers money
:53:22. > :53:26.before they are stopped. Most people I have seen have not been ripping it
:53:26. > :53:31.off in order to enjoy a lavish lifestyle. They have been committing
:53:31. > :53:37.fraud in order to get by. Often, it will be a single mum with children.
:53:37. > :53:42.If you are punishing the children as well that might cause you to reflect
:53:42. > :53:47.on whether a suspended sentence wouldn't be a better option than
:53:47. > :53:52.immediate custody? Magistrates can use their discretion, but...
:53:52. > :53:57.Magistrates and judges use sentence g sentencing guidelines. They tell
:53:57. > :54:00.us how serious an offence sr. And we sentence according to guidelines.
:54:00. > :54:05.Clearly, if they are working within guidelines and they are not applying
:54:06. > :54:11.strict enough sentences, I think the guidelines are wrong.
:54:11. > :54:15.Do we think the guidelines are the sentencing or are we sending a bad
:54:15. > :54:18.message here about benefit fraud? mean certainly we have to ensure
:54:18. > :54:23.that the people, the right people are getting benefits if they need
:54:23. > :54:27.benefits. Is that why you think the courts are more lenient? They hear a
:54:27. > :54:29.hard luck story? My experience of magistrates they take their role
:54:29. > :54:39.seriously and will keep to the guidelines sitting in front of them,
:54:39. > :54:44.but we have to put it in the context of the Benefit Bill. 99. 3% of
:54:44. > :54:51.people on benefit are not on fraud. The public believes it is close to
:54:51. > :54:55.27%. 300 cases investigated and only one prosecuted. He people report any
:54:55. > :55:00.number of things. You have got to look at the facts. It can't be based
:55:00. > :55:06.on assumptions and the more and more we talk about something which
:55:06. > :55:10.affects 07. 7%, we are taking a it -- 0. 7%, we are taking a it out of
:55:10. > :55:14.context. The guidelines need to be looked at.
:55:15. > :55:20.George, the Chancellor needs every penny. It seems that through the G8,
:55:20. > :55:27.there is more squeeze going on. But there is a lot of companies getting
:55:27. > :55:34.away without paying their taxes? Taxes. Why talk about benefit
:55:34. > :55:38.cheats? People who want to get on get offended by people they see free
:55:38. > :55:43.loading the system. Richard makes the point that the numbers who are
:55:43. > :55:47.prosecuted are small in terms of the benefit bill. We shouldn't push this
:55:47. > :55:51.out of proportion. On the corporate taxation side. It is a difficult
:55:51. > :55:54.balancing ac, isn't it? I have sympathy with the position that says
:55:55. > :56:00.that companies that use what we create as a Government and as a
:56:00. > :56:06.society as a public good should use to pay the public good, ie a market,
:56:06. > :56:11.people who are educated and buy things. At the same time, the
:56:11. > :56:17.companies will say, " We abide by the rules you set." It will bring
:56:17. > :56:20.more in cracking down on the companies? It is between 30 and 40
:56:20. > :56:24.times month than the level of fraud in the system and you have got to
:56:24. > :56:34.invest in that. In 60 seconds, the round-up of the
:56:34. > :56:34.
:56:34. > :56:38.week. Plans to restrict free travel to
:56:38. > :56:41.school in Oxfordshire brought an angry from parents and teachers.
:56:41. > :56:45.They had not mapped through what the impact might be in terms of losing
:56:45. > :56:49.children. In Reading a housebuilder's plans
:56:49. > :56:54.for an empty school site surprised parents trying to develop a
:56:54. > :57:01.secondary free school. A joint bid for UK City of Culture hit the
:57:01. > :57:07.buffers. It won't end our ambition of working with Portsmouth. Soldiers
:57:07. > :57:11.were discovering if they had a job this week as the Army announced 4500
:57:11. > :57:15.redundancies. There has been a big increase in the number of workers
:57:15. > :57:21.coming from Bournemouth to Spain. National insurance applications up
:57:21. > :57:26.from 90 to 580 in six years. A push to find jobs for young people in
:57:26. > :57:30.Swindon suggested they set-up their own business. They say under 25s
:57:30. > :57:36.make ideal entrepreneurs, because they understand new tech and they
:57:36. > :57:41.are fearless and used to having no money.
:57:41. > :57:45.I will ask you Peter, do you think when you are younger, you are better
:57:45. > :57:49.off setting up a business? At the moment, there is a lot of people who
:57:49. > :57:53.have little to lose from setting up a business. Because they haven't got
:57:53. > :57:57.a job anywhere else? But they are the group least likely to get
:57:57. > :58:01.additional funding. A lot of new businesses fail. So you are asking
:58:02. > :58:05.young people to jeopardise a lot early on in their lives.
:58:05. > :58:12.And they are fearless. What would you say? It is a fantastic learning
:58:12. > :58:22.curve. Setting up business is one of the hardest things to do. And having
:58:22. > :58:22.
:58:22. > :58:32.that on your CV, failed or not is an attractive thing on a CV.. People
:58:32. > :58:33.
:58:33. > :58:37.are finding it difficult to get money from the banks? I opened a
:58:37. > :58:41.company today. There is signs of that funding beginning to unlock.
:58:42. > :58:47.Beginning to unlock. Are there signs of the private sector providing the
:58:47. > :58:50.jobs that people need? Not at the moment. We are making steps to try
:58:50. > :58:54.and ensure we can bring in the additional investments necessary to
:58:54. > :58:58.bring in the new jobs, but for a lot of young people there is not a lot
:58:58. > :59:05.of hope out there. Right. That's ending our discussion
:59:05. > :59:12.where we started. Thank you. That's the Sunday Politics in the