:00:38. > :00:44.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU
:00:44. > :00:48.referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel
:00:48. > :00:53.demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers
:00:53. > :00:54.prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be
:00:54. > :00:57.the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be
:00:57. > :01:05.between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?
:01:05. > :01:14.In the south, should we be more like peoples faces?!
:01:14. > :01:16.In the south, should we be more like the Germans and have local banks
:01:16. > :02:01.only lending to local people? He will try to force a vote in the
:02:01. > :02:08.October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the
:02:08. > :02:17.was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has
:02:17. > :02:20.got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement
:02:20. > :02:26.with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide
:02:26. > :02:34.whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think
:02:34. > :02:39.the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people
:02:39. > :02:43.that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future
:02:43. > :02:47.and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.
:02:48. > :02:51.And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who
:02:51. > :02:53.And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through
:02:53. > :03:00.Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie
:03:00. > :03:04.joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum
:03:04. > :03:08.would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based
:03:08. > :03:15.the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I
:03:15. > :03:20.disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to
:03:20. > :03:23.renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European
:03:23. > :03:24.Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate
:03:24. > :03:27.and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate
:03:27. > :03:32.and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,
:03:32. > :03:36.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:36. > :03:40.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:40. > :03:44.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:44. > :03:46.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:46. > :03:52.think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:53. > :03:57.a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need
:03:57. > :03:58.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:03:58. > :04:02.ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for
:04:02. > :04:06.conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is
:04:06. > :04:09.essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their
:04:09. > :04:13.souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That
:04:13. > :04:18.would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I
:04:18. > :04:20.said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:20. > :04:24.You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:24. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:32.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:39.wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British
:04:39. > :04:42.people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties
:04:42. > :04:46.here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,
:04:46. > :04:47.I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:48. > :04:53.good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:53. > :04:58.referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the
:04:58. > :05:02.referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue
:05:02. > :05:07.that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to
:05:07. > :05:16.deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust
:05:16. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables
:05:17. > :05:21.in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables
:05:21. > :05:24.this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables
:05:24. > :05:25.is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables
:05:25. > :05:29.the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum
:05:29. > :05:33.within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may
:05:33. > :05:37.within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got
:05:37. > :05:39.your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:39. > :05:43.leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:43. > :05:44.an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come
:05:44. > :05:48.forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come
:05:48. > :05:50.to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever
:05:50. > :05:55.closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:56. > :05:57.more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:57. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to
:06:00. > :06:05.happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:05. > :06:08.negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:08. > :06:12.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:12. > :06:14.Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime
:06:15. > :06:20.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:20. > :06:24.certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five
:06:24. > :06:30.weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,
:06:30. > :06:36.is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know
:06:36. > :06:40.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:40. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:45. > :06:49.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:49. > :06:51.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:51. > :06:56.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:56. > :06:59.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:06. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:10.not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or
:07:10. > :07:15.British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with
:07:15. > :07:19.it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for
:07:19. > :07:22.each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and
:07:22. > :07:28.decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the
:07:28. > :07:29.headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:29. > :07:38.publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:38. > :07:39.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:39. > :07:44.opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this
:07:44. > :07:48.say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a
:07:49. > :07:52.say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle
:07:52. > :07:56.with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the
:07:56. > :07:57.panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with
:07:57. > :08:02.him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with
:08:02. > :08:10.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:10. > :08:14.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:14. > :08:18.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:18. > :08:23.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:24. > :08:29.They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill
:08:29. > :08:33.is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.
:08:33. > :08:37.It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the
:08:37. > :08:39.next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that
:08:39. > :08:42.all the future government would theoretically impossible and that
:08:42. > :08:45.is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that
:08:45. > :08:51.Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that
:08:51. > :08:59.nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David
:08:59. > :09:04.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:04. > :09:07.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would
:09:07. > :09:11.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to
:09:11. > :09:15.his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:15. > :09:22.not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:28.that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister
:09:28. > :09:35.has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister
:09:35. > :09:39.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:39. > :09:41.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:41. > :09:49.think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:49. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:55.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:55. > :10:02.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:10:02. > :10:08.has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some
:10:08. > :10:11.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:11. > :10:16.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:21.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:21. > :10:27.hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an
:10:27. > :10:32.operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,
:10:32. > :10:34.operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:34. > :10:44.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy
:10:44. > :10:49.under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am
:10:49. > :10:52.pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:52. > :10:58.is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:58. > :11:03.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:03. > :11:08.episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David
:11:08. > :11:13.Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope
:11:13. > :11:16.Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:16. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:28.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:28. > :11:31.you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:31. > :11:38.scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,
:11:38. > :11:43.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:43. > :11:45.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:45. > :11:50.Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:50. > :11:53.this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would
:11:53. > :11:54.this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to
:11:54. > :11:56.without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to
:11:56. > :11:59.without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in
:11:59. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to
:12:04. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two
:12:04. > :12:25.been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is
:12:40. > :12:41.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a
:12:41. > :12:47.value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:47. > :12:51.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:51. > :12:58.to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up
:12:58. > :13:00.time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first
:13:00. > :13:04.losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first
:13:04. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:12.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:12. > :13:18.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:18. > :13:26.banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot
:13:26. > :13:30.get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in
:13:30. > :13:33.our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford
:13:33. > :13:42.the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So
:13:42. > :13:44.Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:44. > :13:50.main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:50. > :13:55.to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the
:13:55. > :13:59.people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is
:14:00. > :14:03.a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in
:14:03. > :14:09.the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it
:14:09. > :14:11.the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools
:14:11. > :14:23.or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee
:14:23. > :14:27.housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.
:14:27. > :14:34.But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of
:14:34. > :14:41.help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the
:14:41. > :14:45.months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed
:14:45. > :14:49.to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like
:14:50. > :14:53.Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once
:14:53. > :15:00.the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the
:15:00. > :15:10.high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People
:15:10. > :15:14.might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would
:15:14. > :15:20.the government want to make those products available then now? It
:15:20. > :15:22.the government want to make those more what investment banks were
:15:22. > :15:28.doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the
:15:28. > :15:35.depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the
:15:35. > :15:37.game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years
:15:37. > :15:42.but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years
:15:42. > :15:47.first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years
:15:47. > :15:53.it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand
:15:53. > :16:01.over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at
:16:01. > :16:07.the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care
:16:07. > :16:14.economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a
:16:14. > :16:21.house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:21. > :16:25.economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull
:16:25. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to
:16:32. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the
:16:32. > :16:35.Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the
:16:35. > :16:52.the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a
:16:52. > :16:57.Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City
:16:57. > :17:04.It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.
:17:04. > :17:18.Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in
:17:18. > :17:22.London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it
:17:22. > :17:31.will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even
:17:31. > :17:35.more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in
:17:35. > :17:42.tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.
:17:42. > :17:44.What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on
:17:44. > :17:55.average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on
:17:55. > :17:59.property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they
:17:59. > :18:03.cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people
:18:03. > :18:08.to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will
:18:08. > :18:23.cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any
:18:23. > :18:33.have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record
:18:33. > :18:34.have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not
:18:34. > :18:40.the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not
:18:40. > :18:46.new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see
:18:46. > :18:50.enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution
:18:50. > :18:54.to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes
:18:54. > :19:00.and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the
:19:00. > :19:04.deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed
:19:04. > :19:08.laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed
:19:08. > :19:15.prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government
:19:16. > :19:19.is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create
:19:19. > :19:26.these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not
:19:26. > :19:32.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take
:19:32. > :19:39.part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the
:19:39. > :19:42.money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The
:19:42. > :19:49.taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The
:19:49. > :19:54.guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the
:19:54. > :20:00.change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in
:20:00. > :20:03.response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying
:20:03. > :20:13.for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like
:20:13. > :20:19.these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused
:20:19. > :20:24.the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly
:20:24. > :20:29.asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house
:20:29. > :20:33.prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding
:20:33. > :20:38.bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding
:20:38. > :20:41.circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding
:20:41. > :20:46.on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they
:20:46. > :20:54.should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier
:20:54. > :20:58.to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission
:20:58. > :20:59.to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a
:20:59. > :21:05.huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a
:21:05. > :21:09.recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a
:21:09. > :21:12.the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the
:21:12. > :21:17.figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the
:21:17. > :21:24.an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third
:21:24. > :21:29.up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and
:21:29. > :21:31.up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put
:21:31. > :21:36.into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I
:21:36. > :21:42.agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector
:21:42. > :21:49.advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron
:21:49. > :21:57.says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They
:21:57. > :22:03.don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on
:22:03. > :22:07.the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable
:22:07. > :22:11.housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like
:22:11. > :22:19.in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes
:22:19. > :22:25.were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people
:22:25. > :22:29.could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%
:22:29. > :22:38.mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go
:22:38. > :22:44.struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced
:22:44. > :22:49.with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:49. > :22:55.95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:55. > :23:00.repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?
:23:00. > :23:03.They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are
:23:03. > :23:09.already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are
:23:09. > :23:16.lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into
:23:16. > :23:20.this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are
:23:20. > :23:24.this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should
:23:24. > :23:30.limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape
:23:30. > :23:33.limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the
:23:33. > :23:41.Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father
:23:41. > :23:48.Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone
:23:48. > :23:52.with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and
:23:52. > :23:56.with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on
:23:57. > :24:01.printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word
:24:01. > :24:06.printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also
:24:06. > :24:11.reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's
:24:11. > :24:15.uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,
:24:15. > :24:23.but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers
:24:23. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a
:24:31. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:31. > :24:42.Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:42. > :24:49.reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion
:24:49. > :24:53.about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang
:24:53. > :24:54.about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:54. > :24:59.sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:59. > :25:04.do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making
:25:04. > :25:07.right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is
:25:07. > :25:16.about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is
:25:16. > :25:21.and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they
:25:21. > :25:26.are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we
:25:26. > :25:33.will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the
:25:33. > :25:49.proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did
:25:49. > :26:02.with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the
:26:02. > :26:04.with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship
:26:05. > :26:13.between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,
:26:13. > :26:18.between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press
:26:18. > :26:22.industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect
:26:22. > :26:26.the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope
:26:26. > :26:28.the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent
:26:28. > :26:34.with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.
:26:34. > :26:40.You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through
:26:40. > :26:45.the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled
:26:45. > :26:46.son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:46. > :26:56.Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:56. > :27:09.couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are
:27:09. > :27:23.editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the
:27:23. > :27:33.judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the
:27:33. > :27:37.old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject
:27:37. > :27:40.old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until
:27:40. > :27:43.you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near
:27:43. > :27:48.the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have
:27:48. > :27:58.been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is
:27:58. > :28:04.fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the
:28:04. > :28:09.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say it
:28:09. > :28:13.is wrong if that is what they did. As you said, you have the same
:28:13. > :28:19.position when they go through your rubbish bins, I think that is wrong.
:28:19. > :28:23.We have Leveson set up by the Prime Minister to look at the cultures and
:28:23. > :28:27.practices and the unilateral action of editors and he came forward with
:28:27. > :28:39.a proposal that was agreed in Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:41.Royal Charter. I don't like a Royal Charter, it is not democratic
:28:41. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go along with it so why did the
:28:44. > :28:51.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:58.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:58. > :29:02.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:02. > :29:07.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not want
:29:07. > :29:09.to face up to any form of accountability. We know Alistair
:29:09. > :29:13.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:14. > :29:24.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:24. > :29:36.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:36. > :29:41.me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it
:29:41. > :29:44.was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press
:29:44. > :29:58.regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband
:29:58. > :30:00.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:00. > :30:04.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what
:30:04. > :30:08.is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about
:30:08. > :30:12.ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after
:30:12. > :30:16.themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they
:30:16. > :30:20.might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well
:30:20. > :30:25.destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre
:30:25. > :30:30.got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.
:30:30. > :30:36.Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,
:30:36. > :30:41.we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the
:30:41. > :30:45.Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,
:30:45. > :30:49.this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy
:30:49. > :30:51.Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before
:30:51. > :30:55.the end of the year, and the question is, what is political
:30:55. > :30:59.impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the
:30:59. > :31:02.total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past
:31:02. > :31:09.several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,
:31:09. > :31:13.because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all
:31:13. > :31:18.parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and
:31:18. > :31:24.proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a
:31:24. > :31:28.smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream
:31:28. > :31:34.for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies
:31:34. > :31:38.and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work
:31:38. > :31:42.for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they
:31:42. > :31:44.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done
:31:44. > :31:49.surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this
:31:49. > :31:52.position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think
:31:53. > :31:58.the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.
:31:58. > :32:01.If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do
:32:02. > :32:05.this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the
:32:05. > :32:12.media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a
:32:12. > :32:15.dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David
:32:15. > :32:18.Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some
:32:18. > :32:24.common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the
:32:24. > :32:28.so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is
:32:28. > :32:31.ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.
:32:31. > :32:35.What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to
:32:35. > :32:41.be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy
:32:41. > :32:46.Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come
:32:46. > :32:51.up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because
:32:51. > :32:52.the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:52. > :32:56.able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:56. > :33:01.will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and
:33:01. > :33:07.it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be
:33:07. > :33:10.resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the
:33:10. > :33:18.profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for
:33:18. > :33:25.Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great
:33:25. > :33:29.victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the
:33:29. > :33:33.narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But
:33:33. > :33:36.all those vested interests are people that you would expect a
:33:36. > :33:45.left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant
:33:45. > :33:48.about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his
:33:48. > :33:54.father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him
:33:54. > :34:00.as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching
:34:00. > :34:01.the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be
:34:01. > :34:14.Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My speaking to Godfrey
:34:14. > :34:18.Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My name is Peter Henley. On today's
:34:18. > :34:23.show: Local banking for local folk. It's how the Germans do it, and look
:34:24. > :34:27.how well their economy's going. It's also something the Germans say they
:34:27. > :34:36.got from us, so could we grab the idea back again? And could local
:34:36. > :34:40.councils get a piece of the action? First, let's meet the politicians
:34:40. > :34:45.with us for the next 20 minutes. He said Dodds the Labour candidate in
:34:45. > :34:49.the South East for the Labour —— for the European elections, and we have
:34:50. > :34:54.the MP for Bournemouth West. A lot of policies out of the conferences,
:34:54. > :34:59.more from Labour, the energy capital is the Liberal Democrats, free
:34:59. > :35:06.school meals, plastic bags tax. The Conservatives, learn or earn, this
:35:06. > :35:13.idea that if you are under 25, you are not entitled to benefits, why
:35:13. > :35:16.not? The point the Prime Minister was making was automatic. It should
:35:16. > :35:23.not be automatic for somebody to leave school and go straight to
:35:23. > :35:27.benefits and get a flat or house. Because they have not paid into the
:35:27. > :35:31.pot? It is the wrong thing for them, they should be in training or
:35:31. > :35:34.education. The government will work with them to make that happen,
:35:34. > :35:38.creating what apprenticeships than in the history of the country, young
:35:38. > :35:45.people should aspire to that and not a life in benefits. Finding jobs
:35:45. > :35:51.would also be important, but the Conservatives, 1.4 million new
:35:51. > :35:55.private sector jobs. But what quality? A large proportion of
:35:56. > :35:59.part—time jobs and we have the largest amount of underemployment
:35:59. > :36:05.ever, people wanting to work more hours. But to take issue, there is
:36:06. > :36:11.such a pressure on housing in the South East that very few young
:36:11. > :36:17.people allegedly leave school and go to get a flat or house, that is
:36:17. > :36:20.cloud cuckoo land! That situation does not exist because there is not
:36:20. > :36:24.enough housing. For many young people, the situation is to live
:36:24. > :36:28.with their parents, having no choice, and trying to find work
:36:28. > :36:34.because we have 1 million young unemployed people. So people who are
:36:34. > :36:39.working right a disadvantage because they do not get housing benefit.
:36:39. > :36:44.They do. Majority of people on housing benefit are either retired
:36:44. > :36:48.people or they are working. Some people get benefits who are
:36:48. > :36:52.unemployed but a majority who get housing benefit working or they are
:36:52. > :36:58.pensioners and that is often missed out of this debate. A lot of people
:36:58. > :37:03.getting housing benefit are on low wages or they cannot get enough
:37:03. > :37:07.hours at work or they are on zero hours contracts so they do not have
:37:07. > :37:12.stability to pay the rent. Was taking benefits away part of a
:37:12. > :37:16.hardline message to win votes rather than something genuine? It is part
:37:16. > :37:21.of the overall package of Iain Duncan Smith. He is committed to
:37:21. > :37:26.social justice and opportunity for people in this country. There is a
:37:26. > :37:31.sense the benefits system has grown too big and compensated. Under
:37:31. > :37:35.Labour, people were entitled to tax credit who were earning up to
:37:35. > :37:40.£60,000, that is not what the Balfour —— that is not what the
:37:40. > :37:44.welfare report intended. We are putting it on the side of
:37:44. > :37:49.hard—working people. We will get a chance to talk more about that.
:37:49. > :37:52.If you're of a certain age, you might actually remember the days
:37:52. > :37:54.when the local bank manager was someone who was someone in their
:37:55. > :37:57.local community. Nowadays, you're more likely to have a business
:37:58. > :38:00.relationship with your bank's call centre or computer system. But in
:38:01. > :38:04.Germany, they have maintained that local connection between banks and
:38:04. > :38:07.the businesses in their area. And as our business correspondent Alastair
:38:07. > :38:09.Fee has been finding out, many would argue that is the reason for their
:38:09. > :38:20.economic success. Celebrating with a litre of good
:38:20. > :38:24.Bavarian beer! Others in Europe have been crippled by debt and rising
:38:24. > :38:29.unemployment, but not much has changed here and that is worth
:38:29. > :38:34.drinking too. And the secret ingredient is not change, it is
:38:34. > :38:41.about tradition. 48,000 bottles per hour. This man 's family have been
:38:41. > :38:46.bottling here since the 19th century and employers keep those controlling
:38:46. > :38:50.flow of money close. So to host a party with the bank manager is not
:38:50. > :38:54.unusual. You stay in the region you are proud of so you focus on the
:38:54. > :39:01.region and strengthen it. When we needed money, it was no problem to
:39:01. > :39:05.ask the bank to get the money quickly. They knew the family, they
:39:05. > :39:11.knew the security, they knew the character, they are very
:39:11. > :39:16.Conservative, and that is why we get it without a problem. Almost every
:39:16. > :39:23.time —— town and village in Germany has at least one local wine with a
:39:23. > :39:52.remit to support the community. —1 local bank.
:39:52. > :39:59.This is nothing new here, local banking began in Germany in the 19th
:39:59. > :40:02.century. But it started in the UK and they were eventually swallowed
:40:02. > :40:08.up by the big High Street banks. There are now calls to bring local
:40:08. > :40:12.banking back. This is why, the money is available for everybody, keeping
:40:12. > :40:20.independent businesses going into of times. Since slashed year, I have
:40:21. > :40:26.had a lot of money. And you have gone over the road to your local
:40:26. > :40:32.bank? I go to the local bank, yes. I have a friend on the other side.
:40:32. > :40:38.They help me. They understand me and it is not a gangster. You do not
:40:38. > :40:52.want to sell me something I do not need! During the crisis in 2008,
:40:52. > :40:57.2010, we forced credit in this time and our business customers could
:40:57. > :41:02.continue to work. They could invest and there was no trouble. No trouble
:41:02. > :41:14.because bank managers know who they are lending to and make visits to
:41:14. > :41:19.see customers working locally. With the government and with Sparkasse,
:41:19. > :41:24.we built a new form. In Germany, there was no credit crunch, the
:41:24. > :41:31.Sparkasse did each job. Stepping in when High Street banks could not
:41:31. > :41:36.help. This engineering firm was set up and expand to the downturn. And
:41:36. > :41:40.how the bash in 2010, he used our loan to start up his business. He
:41:40. > :41:47.built this whole and set up the —— and set up these machines. His
:41:47. > :41:50.success is our success. This is banking for life, generations invest
:41:50. > :41:54.and take out mortgages, and they start young. These children will
:41:54. > :41:59.soon be customers and today they were on a trip to see the vault. So
:41:59. > :42:02.it seems the Germans have more reason to celebrate than most. I
:42:03. > :42:08.value in tradition, money has continued to flow almost as freely
:42:08. > :42:11.as the beer. As others in Europe have gone under, it is the
:42:11. > :42:17.traditional banks credited with having kept the economy afloat.
:42:17. > :42:21.And they all spoke marvellous English except for the bank manager
:42:21. > :42:25.who I guessed was talking to his local people so he did not need to!
:42:25. > :42:28.Joining me now is Professor Richard Werner, from the University of
:42:28. > :42:31.Southampton, who is one of the leading lights in a plan to set up
:42:31. > :42:36.the Hampshire Community Bank, modelled on those local German
:42:36. > :42:40.banks. The Germans of use I have a long history, they knew the family.
:42:40. > :42:44.He was a count, but they knew them going back generations, can you
:42:44. > :42:51.recreate that model without a good local knowledge? Not without the
:42:51. > :42:56.local knowledge. But that is in the local community. That means the
:42:56. > :43:02.local community has to self generate something new, a local bank. The
:43:02. > :43:07.locals know each other and you need to get the locals to set up their
:43:07. > :43:12.own local bank. But it is trust, which is easy to save difficult on
:43:12. > :43:17.both sides. If you are a business owner and you want to be certain you
:43:17. > :43:21.will be supported and your business is understood, if you are lending
:43:21. > :43:25.money, people are always optimistic about what they want. Have you
:43:25. > :43:31.really got the level of expertise in the local community to do this? The
:43:31. > :43:39.relationship is different to a Dragons' Den situation. The small
:43:39. > :43:43.lower Bavarian town I grew up in that we have just seen, from
:43:43. > :43:48.childhood onwards, you know the bank and the bank managers. When the
:43:48. > :43:52.first loan applications come in, perhaps young people setting up a
:43:52. > :43:56.firm, a bank manager knows them, they know the bank manager, they
:43:56. > :44:02.know he knows their parents, not just where they live. This is a
:44:02. > :44:07.trust relationship. That creates a different situation. People do not
:44:07. > :44:12.want to take money and run, so lenders know that. Trust goes from
:44:12. > :44:17.both sides far deeper, and that makes people more able to look at
:44:17. > :44:21.the business facts. You want to see this recreated in this country which
:44:21. > :44:29.does not have that history you describe. It does have the history.
:44:29. > :44:33.It is a British idea. Like many ideas, generated in England and the
:44:33. > :44:38.UK, and perhaps other countries have run with it and done something
:44:38. > :44:45.bigger. And we have forgotten it. Other people who could be trusted to
:44:45. > :44:49.get the money and lend it? The first Sparkasse banks were set up in the
:44:49. > :44:57.UK in 1810, the early 19th century. And the model was taken to Germany
:44:57. > :45:01.and it caught on. But the savings banks spread a lot in the UK. And
:45:01. > :45:10.there is one left from that era in Scotland. I think it is not really a
:45:10. > :45:16.problem to recreate this. You need is extraordinary. The know—how is
:45:16. > :45:19.there. —— the need. People are highly qualified in the financial
:45:19. > :45:23.services, we just need to put these elements together and reunite the
:45:23. > :45:28.banking experts with their local community and not transfer them away
:45:28. > :45:33.after three years to another part of the country and allow them to stay
:45:33. > :45:41.in their local community. It would work very well. The suggestion in
:45:41. > :45:48.Bill must —— or maths and many other parts of the South is that taxpayers
:45:48. > :45:54.money could be used to do this. —— in Bournemouth. But Labour like to
:45:54. > :46:00.see that? Labour has been asking for a regional system for a long time
:46:00. > :46:06.and had merely bound —— Ed Miliband made that part of our policy. That
:46:06. > :46:10.is not the same as Sparkasse. Not necessarily, be is regional banks
:46:10. > :46:13.would have a larger focus. But a work based on many of the same
:46:14. > :46:18.principles that have just been discussed by the Professor. To be
:46:18. > :46:24.more open to local projects, but using local knowledge to make key
:46:24. > :46:29.business decisions. We have a real crisis of lending at the moment and
:46:29. > :46:33.I am sure Connor is finding this, speaking to small people with good
:46:33. > :46:40.ideas who cannot expand. That is what we need. The problem is still
:46:40. > :46:43.here. We have been talking about this in Bournemouth and the council
:46:43. > :46:49.is doing this, working to create a new bank. The big banks in decades
:46:49. > :46:54.gone by did behave in this model whether bank model was part of the
:46:54. > :46:57.community, they knew the community and they lent not on the basis of a
:46:57. > :47:03.computer calculation but of trust and knowledge. That has gone. I see
:47:03. > :47:07.every week in my surgery companies who have overdraft facilities with
:47:07. > :47:11.it the bank which comes up for renewal, they are hit with charges
:47:11. > :47:16.and massively increased rates of interest. These are decent
:47:16. > :47:19.businesses, some have been in families for generations, that is
:47:19. > :47:25.something customer focused banks would help with enormously. The big
:47:25. > :47:31.banks not going to fight back and say, or we can do this cheaper? We
:47:31. > :47:34.will lend you cheaper, you do not have to go to these guys who were
:47:34. > :47:41.wanted to visit your pick from! They welcome to do that but they have
:47:41. > :47:45.voluntarily decided not to engage. So if as a result of the creation of
:47:45. > :47:52.local banks the big thanks also change that business model, the
:47:52. > :47:57.better. But as banks grow large, and they have grown very large in the
:47:57. > :48:03.UK, over 90% of deposits accounted for by five banks with massive
:48:03. > :48:10.balance sheet and reams of pounds, —— ballot sheet and billions of
:48:11. > :48:18.power, —— pounds, so every cost of dismissed deals we make, they do not
:48:18. > :48:22.want to deal with small customers —— dismissed deals. So banks mainly
:48:22. > :48:29.deal with hedge funds is and do speculative loans. It has got to
:48:29. > :48:32.change and the banks spend their whole time trying to sell you
:48:32. > :48:36.something you do not want in the first place. We hope it is a bit
:48:36. > :48:40.more focused. And you can see more on that story
:48:40. > :48:43.throughout the week on South Today at 6:30. Well, the conference season
:48:43. > :48:46.is over, the lobbyists have packed up their stalls and the party
:48:46. > :48:49.faithful are back in their constituencies preparing for battle
:48:49. > :48:52.in the European elections next year. The Conservatives brought down the
:48:52. > :48:55.curtain earlier in the week, just what sort of fettle were their
:48:55. > :48:59.activists in after their time in Manchester?
:48:59. > :49:04.Outside, they were protesting about fat cats, but inside, she would like
:49:04. > :49:08.to be the apprentice of the Chancellor. Karren Brady was the
:49:08. > :49:11.warm up to George Osborne who was basking in the glow of an economy on
:49:11. > :49:17.the up. What we inherited was a record
:49:17. > :49:22.budget deficit, we got that down by a third. With the policies in place,
:49:22. > :49:26.there are an extra 1.4 million jobs since the general election in the
:49:26. > :49:32.private sector. And we are seeing growth returning to the economy.
:49:32. > :49:37.Manchester 's shiny new trams are driving the local. The argument
:49:37. > :49:42.David Cameron makes for HS two. But the plan seemed more running out of
:49:42. > :49:46.steam at the conference. There is opposition to this, we have
:49:46. > :49:50.thousands of supporters supporting our campaign and the debate is
:49:50. > :49:57.changing. It has changed. Since last year when nobody knew about this, it
:49:57. > :50:02.is a current topic, it is in the media, people are talking about it
:50:02. > :50:04.and we welcome a proper debate. Opposition to the high—speed rail
:50:04. > :50:10.line could give UKIP their first Westminster seats. Their leader
:50:10. > :50:16.claimed this week. He said he would be happy with local deals. Could
:50:16. > :50:25.that happen? This woman defected to UKIP this year and until then, she
:50:25. > :50:28.had worked closely with the party. A believe UKIP grassroots would not be
:50:28. > :50:34.happy with this because people in UKIP believe they want to be an
:50:34. > :50:40.option. They do not want the three main parties, they want a fourth
:50:40. > :50:46.party and we give them what they want. The businesses exhibiting here
:50:46. > :50:49.cannot be so sceptical about Europe. The clever photography puts you in
:50:49. > :50:56.the seat of the new Airbus. This parent company also owns a
:50:56. > :51:00.Portsmouth satellite company and another based in Oxfordshire. What
:51:00. > :51:06.is a good conversation with a Minister here? We are a business. We
:51:06. > :51:11.want to be successful. But it —— but it is not just about the money, we
:51:11. > :51:18.want people to know what we do. They are on the up and the green shoots
:51:18. > :51:22.of recovery continue. At this Berks charity making up parcels for people
:51:22. > :51:28.recovering from illness. Punting a seed, panting manure, standard
:51:28. > :51:34.stuff! —— planting. Not so much in your spread among the
:51:34. > :51:40.politicians! Was this a warm up to the general election was to mark
:51:40. > :51:44.normally, conferences do not matter and they are forgotten in days. This
:51:44. > :51:49.conference season did matter. We started to seep the differences
:51:49. > :51:57.between the political parties. When Margaret Thatcher was in 2002 asked
:51:57. > :52:01.what her greatest achievement was, she said, Tony Blair and new Labour,
:52:01. > :52:07.we forced our opponents to change. It became safe to vote Labour. Ed
:52:07. > :52:12.Miliband in Brighton last week was asked a question, are you going to
:52:12. > :52:18.bring back socialism? His cancer was, that is what we are doing, sir.
:52:18. > :52:26.They committed to price fixing. —— his answer. There are big
:52:26. > :52:31.differences in British politics. So the Labour conference was by far the
:52:31. > :52:36.most important? I do not agree with the analysis but it was important.
:52:36. > :52:40.What surprised me is that finally, we have a coalition talking about
:52:40. > :52:44.living standards and it has taken three years where wages have been
:52:44. > :52:49.falling faster than prices for 38 out of the last 39 months for the
:52:49. > :52:53.coalition to finally start talking about living standards. So I am
:52:53. > :53:00.pleased. If Ed Miliband has been talking about this or this time and
:53:00. > :53:05.that makes him a socialist, I am surprised! He is saying, we will not
:53:05. > :53:09.stand for this hit on living standards. He is standing up to
:53:09. > :53:14.energy companies which have been allowed to rip people off for too
:53:14. > :53:18.long. Is he not saying he is on the side of the people? He is very good
:53:18. > :53:22.with rhetoric and we need to remember who was the energy
:53:22. > :53:27.secretary in the last government who set the conditions we are operating
:53:27. > :53:31.under, Ed Miliband, he did nothing in office. And more humility —— and
:53:31. > :53:36.mortality about the desperate state of the economy left to the coalition
:53:37. > :53:43.would be more becoming. Given the economy was growing when Labour left
:53:43. > :53:49.office, that is a strange claim. 38 out of 39 months, wages have been
:53:49. > :53:53.falling. It is an economy growing now.
:53:53. > :53:57.It is, I am not going to talk down the economy, one major problem we
:53:57. > :54:00.have had is we have had a relentlessly negative rhetoric
:54:00. > :54:05.coming out which has sought to demand out of the economy. It has
:54:05. > :54:11.been coming from the government. —— sucked demand. We have 1.4 million
:54:11. > :54:16.new jobs. If you look at other countries doing better than Britain,
:54:16. > :54:20.you wonder what is going wrong here. Coalition Britain is doing
:54:20. > :54:23.better than Labour. That is not true.
:54:23. > :54:25.Now our regular round—up of the political week in the South in 60
:54:25. > :54:35.seconds. New laws to prevent stolen scrap
:54:35. > :54:42.metal sold on came into force this week. All dealers must be licensed.
:54:42. > :54:46.This project is to make the Isle of Wight self—sufficient in energy went
:54:46. > :54:49.into liquidation, naming a lack of investment.
:54:49. > :54:54.They have tried to develop a brilliant idea, there are others who
:54:54. > :55:00.may be more successful. Major crime scenes in Dorset will be
:55:00. > :55:04.guarded by private security guards. The former remand trial was
:55:04. > :55:07.criticised by the Police Federation. Student unions will provide wardens
:55:07. > :55:11.to curb social —— anti—social behaviour in Bournemouth, visitors
:55:11. > :55:17.say they dread the start of a new term. We have four young children
:55:17. > :55:22.who have been woken up every night. It is constant, it starts Tuesday
:55:22. > :55:26.night and you only get Monday night respite. 80 million journeys are
:55:26. > :55:30.made on First Great Western trains in the Thames Valley, more than go
:55:30. > :55:35.through Heathrow Airport, the company has given a two year
:55:35. > :55:41.extension to its contract. Talking about university students,
:55:41. > :55:46.you know working in a university, it is difficult for people living
:55:46. > :55:50.nearby? It is, definitely. Particularly when there is so much
:55:50. > :55:54.pressure on housing and you find there is a proliferation of houses
:55:54. > :55:59.in multiple occupation. Eight out of ten in one road, they were saying.
:55:59. > :56:04.But Labour will build more houses, 200,000? Too little too late, some
:56:04. > :56:08.would say, you should have done it years ago. I would agree with that
:56:08. > :56:14.but I would not say it is too little. Labour is also doing locally
:56:14. > :56:20.in places like Oxford, they are regulating landlords who make so
:56:20. > :56:27.much money out of this. If help to buy going to help? For others
:56:27. > :56:32.wanting to move out of home? The warden think you saw is absolutely
:56:32. > :56:35.fantastic and is helping to bridge the divide between residents and
:56:35. > :56:41.students. They help to buy scheme will do what it says, it will help
:56:41. > :56:45.people to buy and the participation in offering the 90% mortgage
:56:45. > :56:50.products, that should help. We need more houses to be built, Labour did
:56:50. > :56:55.very little in 13 years on housing but we have to be cautious we do not
:56:55. > :56:59.end up stoking a housing bubble in the South East and London. Prices
:56:59. > :57:02.are stagnant in many other parts of the country and there is a lot of
:57:02. > :57:04.land supply there. That is it, thank you to my guests,
:57:04. > :57:04.back We are getting into a discussion of
:57:04. > :57:09.more affordable homes needed, but we We are getting into a discussion of
:57:09. > :57:20.have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to
:57:20. > :57:41.controversy, a former UKIP MEP he recently lost his party's whip after
:57:42. > :57:46.a series of outbursts including receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'
:57:46. > :57:49.and joking that a group of UKIP women who didn't clean behind their
:57:49. > :57:53.fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in independent but remains a UKIP party
:57:53. > :58:03.member. Here's a flavour of recent events in the political life of
:58:03. > :58:13.Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly be giving £1 million a month...
:58:13. > :58:16.Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:16. > :58:20.agreeing with me so you are the within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:20. > :58:23.that is out of touch. Everybody knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:23. > :58:27.joke, they love me or they hate knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:27. > :58:38.but I have always told me like it is. I made a joke and said that
:58:38. > :58:42.women who did not clean behind the French were sluts and everybody
:58:42. > :58:45.laughed along, including the women. I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:46. > :58:51.saying, God Almighty, can't you I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:51. > :58:56.a joke any more? I am long in the correctness and I understand UKIP
:58:56. > :59:10.have moved on and they are doing well, and I wish them well. This,
:59:10. > :59:16.with no black faces on it. You are picking people out for the colour of
:59:16. > :59:19.with no black faces on it. You are their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps
:59:19. > :59:27.the way they are doing things now is disgrace me. We are joined now with
:59:27. > :59:34.a suitable distance between us by the independent MEP for Yorkshire
:59:34. > :59:39.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You said this weekend that you have
:59:39. > :59:48.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You be a complete sociopath to be in
:59:48. > :59:51.politics, are you a sociopath? No, I am just an ordinary bloke from the
:59:51. > :59:55.rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to
:59:55. > :00:00.rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of
:00:00. > :00:06.the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I
:00:06. > :00:14.member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your
:00:14. > :00:21.conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your
:00:21. > :00:27.same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward
:00:27. > :00:35.and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my
:00:35. > :00:42.country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and
:00:42. > :00:45.country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game
:00:45. > :00:54.in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been
:00:54. > :00:58.liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of
:00:58. > :01:03.perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a
:01:03. > :01:06.one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe
:01:06. > :01:14.meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything
:01:14. > :01:23.Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or
:01:23. > :01:29.me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And
:01:30. > :01:43.myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable
:01:43. > :01:56.force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has
:01:56. > :02:00.been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June
:02:00. > :02:06.and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement
:02:06. > :02:13.about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote
:02:13. > :02:18.getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you
:02:18. > :02:23.what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip
:02:23. > :02:30.of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,
:02:30. > :02:39.and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect
:02:39. > :02:41.that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:41. > :02:47.Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:47. > :02:51.have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to
:02:51. > :02:53.have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David
:02:53. > :02:57.Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been
:02:57. > :03:01.gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of
:03:01. > :03:10.it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown
:03:10. > :03:13.machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:13. > :03:17.have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:17. > :03:23.you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in
:03:23. > :03:28.Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things
:03:28. > :03:32.in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You
:03:32. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in
:03:35. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:35. > :03:40.course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:40. > :03:45.of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't
:03:45. > :03:48.of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment
:03:48. > :03:52.love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:52. > :03:55.an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:55. > :04:07.European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could
:04:08. > :04:10.do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:10. > :04:14.again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:14. > :04:18.but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:18. > :04:21.help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in
:04:21. > :04:26.Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the
:04:26. > :04:30.fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance
:04:30. > :04:34.to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I
:04:34. > :04:44.am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey
:04:44. > :04:50.take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for
:04:50. > :04:55.joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do
:04:55. > :05:00.not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because
:05:00. > :05:07.they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason
:05:07. > :05:10.for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and
:05:11. > :05:15.more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even
:05:15. > :05:20.in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like
:05:20. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked
:05:25. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:26. > :05:28.got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:29. > :05:37.kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist
:05:37. > :05:42.long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his
:05:42. > :05:47.website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he
:05:47. > :05:53.photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does
:05:53. > :05:55.photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin
:05:55. > :06:01.was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It
:06:01. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be
:06:06. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:06. > :06:12.beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:12. > :06:15.sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP
:06:15. > :06:18.sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the
:06:18. > :06:22.European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is
:06:22. > :06:25.right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what
:06:25. > :06:33.this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to
:06:33. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as
:06:37. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:37. > :06:40.three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:40. > :06:44.probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.
:06:44. > :06:55.The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making
:06:55. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:56. > :06:58.he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:58. > :07:00.he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and
:07:00. > :07:01.councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need
:07:01. > :07:04.Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need
:07:04. > :07:06.ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:06. > :07:10.David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:10. > :07:12.David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women
:07:12. > :07:14.among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:14. > :07:19.He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:19. > :07:25.week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way
:07:25. > :07:29.businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics
:07:29. > :07:34.in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet
:07:34. > :07:38.table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,
:07:38. > :07:41.whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:41. > :07:45.the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:45. > :07:47.women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:47. > :07:50.have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:50. > :07:55.big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we
:07:55. > :08:00.need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in
:08:00. > :08:03.need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing
:08:03. > :08:06.need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than
:08:06. > :08:09.need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she
:08:09. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime
:08:14. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:14. > :08:19.think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:19. > :08:25.will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to
:08:25. > :08:33.will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin
:08:33. > :08:43.college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,
:08:43. > :08:46.but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult
:08:46. > :08:48.brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger
:08:48. > :08:55.roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger
:08:55. > :08:57.told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary
:08:57. > :09:05.level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot
:09:05. > :09:07.James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:07. > :09:11.What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:11. > :09:16.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,
:09:16. > :09:19.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important
:09:19. > :09:23.intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George
:09:23. > :09:33.Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls
:09:33. > :09:41.you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this
:09:41. > :09:48.now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to
:09:48. > :09:56.promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female
:09:56. > :10:00.in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with
:10:00. > :10:03.women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember
:10:03. > :10:07.that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally
:10:07. > :10:12.amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without
:10:12. > :10:14.amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to
:10:14. > :10:21.change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?
:10:21. > :10:26.personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,
:10:26. > :10:27.personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?
:10:27. > :10:29.personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend
:10:29. > :10:35.personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will
:10:35. > :10:40.change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference
:10:40. > :10:46.season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband
:10:46. > :10:51.season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?
:10:51. > :10:56.I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still
:10:56. > :11:00.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems
:11:00. > :11:03.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the
:11:03. > :11:07.latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you
:11:07. > :11:14.wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the
:11:14. > :11:18.living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are
:11:18. > :11:22.booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but
:11:22. > :11:30.booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on
:11:30. > :11:32.about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband
:11:32. > :11:37.making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under
:11:37. > :11:43.their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And
:11:43. > :11:47.you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that
:11:47. > :11:51.will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are
:11:51. > :11:56.people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still
:11:56. > :12:01.forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being
:12:01. > :12:06.noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition
:12:06. > :12:11.than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he
:12:11. > :12:12.in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of
:12:12. > :12:18.references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of
:12:18. > :12:25.Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,
:12:25. > :12:31.living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the
:12:31. > :12:37.same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would
:12:37. > :12:40.be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their
:12:40. > :12:45.conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they
:12:45. > :12:49.could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it
:12:49. > :12:54.generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I
:12:54. > :12:57.generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.
:12:57. > :13:04.What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the
:13:04. > :13:07.one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,
:13:07. > :13:14.they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you
:13:14. > :13:16.they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework
:13:16. > :13:20.that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones
:13:20. > :13:23.after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also
:13:23. > :13:28.pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go
:13:28. > :13:31.ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will
:13:31. > :13:34.ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,
:13:34. > :13:37.and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is
:13:37. > :13:39.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.