:00:40. > :00:45.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:46. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :01:00.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:01. > :01:05.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:06. > :01:13.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:14. > :01:19.Teachers were on strike across the region this week. Are they
:01:20. > :01:27.London, does the London assembly have one arm tied behind its back?
:01:28. > :01:36.All of that to come. And the Home Office minister sacked by Nick
:01:37. > :01:40.Clegg, who says his party is like a wonky shopping trolley, which keeps
:01:41. > :01:48.veering off to the left. He will join us live at noon. With me to
:01:49. > :01:53.unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be
:01:54. > :01:59.tweeting throughout the programme, using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last
:02:00. > :02:02.day of the Scottish national party conference in Perth. We have
:02:03. > :02:06.discovered that Alex Salmond has been on the same diet as Beyonce.
:02:07. > :02:12.The SNP leader compared his attempts to lose weight with the campaign for
:02:13. > :02:17.independence - lots achieved so far, 20 more to do. In a moment, I will
:02:18. > :02:21.be joined by the deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First
:02:22. > :02:32.they report on the independence campaign. September 18 2014, the
:02:33. > :02:36.date of destiny for Scotland, the day when these campaigners hope its
:02:37. > :02:42.people will decide to vote yes for independence. In a recent poll, only
:02:43. > :02:46.14% said they knew enough to vote either way. That is unlikely to
:02:47. > :02:49.change any time soon. I think the Scottish people will be going to the
:02:50. > :02:53.polls next year still not knowing an awful lot of stuff which is
:02:54. > :02:59.important, because the outcome, in terms of taxation, debt, exactly
:03:00. > :03:03.what will happen to the allocation of assets between the two countries,
:03:04. > :03:07.will come about as a result of negotiation between a Scottish
:03:08. > :03:14.government and the UK Government. That is not stuff which will be
:03:15. > :03:17.known year. At the moment, polls suggest Scotland will decide to
:03:18. > :03:23.remain within the UK. A recent survey found that 44% of those
:03:24. > :03:29.questioned planned to vote no, 5% yes. But interestingly, the
:03:30. > :03:34.undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be
:03:35. > :03:38.tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a
:03:39. > :03:43.vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it
:03:44. > :03:46.allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence
:03:47. > :03:51.will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take
:03:52. > :03:55.advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes
:03:56. > :03:59.campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the
:04:00. > :04:03.no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next
:04:04. > :04:08.September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate
:04:09. > :04:11.income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish
:04:12. > :04:14.Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not
:04:15. > :04:18.know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues
:04:19. > :04:24.which would be raised by independence, issues about how the
:04:25. > :04:26.national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an
:04:27. > :04:31.independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a
:04:32. > :04:34.bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do.
:04:35. > :04:39.Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to
:04:40. > :04:42.face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK
:04:43. > :04:45.Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on
:04:46. > :04:52.independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of
:04:53. > :04:55.the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by
:04:56. > :05:02.what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is
:05:03. > :05:09.Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we
:05:10. > :05:12.meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson
:05:13. > :05:17.said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people
:05:18. > :05:21.put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have
:05:22. > :05:27.got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon
:05:28. > :05:33.Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My
:05:34. > :05:36.view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really
:05:37. > :05:41.about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but
:05:42. > :05:49.this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers
:05:50. > :05:51.best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly
:05:52. > :05:56.accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in
:05:57. > :06:00.Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do
:06:01. > :06:08.not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me
:06:09. > :06:14.just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the
:06:15. > :06:20.attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No I
:06:21. > :06:23.do not think we are required to attack British identity. It is
:06:24. > :06:28.absolutely compatible for somebody to feel a sense of British identity
:06:29. > :06:31.but still support Scottish independence, because Scottish
:06:32. > :06:35.independence is about a transfer of power. It is about good government,
:06:36. > :06:40.accountable government, ensuring that decisions are taking here in
:06:41. > :06:44.Scotland, by people who have got the biggest stake in getting those
:06:45. > :06:48.decisions right. I represent a constituency in the south side of
:06:49. > :06:52.Glasgow, and if you speak to many people in my constituency, if you
:06:53. > :06:56.ask them their national identity, many of them would say Irish,
:06:57. > :06:59.Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many of them will vote yes next year
:07:00. > :07:04.because they understand the issue at stake, which is the issue of where
:07:05. > :07:08.decisions are best taken. It looks like you are changing tack ex-, you
:07:09. > :07:13.have realised the softly softly approach, of saying that actually,
:07:14. > :07:16.nothing much will change, we will still have the Queen, the currency,
:07:17. > :07:24.and all the rest of it, is moving over towards voting for a left-wing
:07:25. > :07:29.future for Scotland... Well, I know that what we are doing is pointing
:07:30. > :07:35.out is pointing out the choice between two futures. If we vote yes,
:07:36. > :07:42.we take our own future into our own hands. We make sure that for ever
:07:43. > :07:46.after, we have governments which will be in demented policies which
:07:47. > :07:49.we have voted for. If we do not become independent, then we continue
:07:50. > :07:53.to run the risk of having governments not only that we do not
:07:54. > :07:57.vote for, but often, that Scotland rejects. We are seeing the
:07:58. > :08:01.dismantling of our system of social security. There are politicians in
:08:02. > :08:06.all of the UK parties who are itching to cut Scotland's share of
:08:07. > :08:10.spending. So Scotland faces a choice of two futures, and it is right to
:08:11. > :08:17.point out the positive consequences of voting yes, but also the
:08:18. > :08:22.consequences of voting no. But you are promising to reverse benefit
:08:23. > :08:24.cuts and increase the minimum wage. You would renationalise the Royal
:08:25. > :08:29.Mail, though how you would do that nobody knows. You are promising to
:08:30. > :08:34.cut energy bills. These are the kind of promises that parties make in a
:08:35. > :08:40.general election campaign, not in a once in 300 years extra stench or
:08:41. > :08:44.choice. Is the future of Scotland really going to be decided on the
:08:45. > :08:52.size of the minimum wage? -- existential choice. A yes vote would
:08:53. > :08:58.be about bringing decision-making powers home, but we are also setting
:08:59. > :09:03.out some of the things an SNP government would do, if elected A
:09:04. > :09:06.decision on what the first government of an independent
:09:07. > :09:11.Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision
:09:12. > :09:15.would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put
:09:16. > :09:19.forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some
:09:20. > :09:23.of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These
:09:24. > :09:28.are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain
:09:29. > :09:32.being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there
:09:33. > :09:36.is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting
:09:37. > :09:39.out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland
:09:40. > :09:47.if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to
:09:48. > :09:51.be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is
:09:52. > :09:54.independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand
:09:55. > :09:58.that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake
:09:59. > :10:04.to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the
:10:05. > :10:10.whole point of independence is that people get the country they want,
:10:11. > :10:14.and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not
:10:15. > :10:17.vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political
:10:18. > :10:22.persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties
:10:23. > :10:26.which represent that persuasion and if they can persuade a majority to
:10:27. > :10:30.vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That
:10:31. > :10:34.is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster
:10:35. > :10:37.government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last
:10:38. > :10:42.general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper
:10:43. > :10:45.that the SNP, as the current government, points out the
:10:46. > :11:01.opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing,
:11:02. > :11:08.when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear
:11:09. > :11:12.to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron,
:11:13. > :11:22.but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling
:11:23. > :11:25.as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he
:11:26. > :11:28.said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people
:11:29. > :11:34.after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was
:11:35. > :11:37.making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and
:11:38. > :11:42.this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come
:11:43. > :11:48.and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me
:11:49. > :11:52.will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron
:11:53. > :11:57.debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus
:11:58. > :12:05.on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words he
:12:06. > :12:11.will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know
:12:12. > :12:16.that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate
:12:17. > :12:20.with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about,
:12:21. > :12:38.but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the
:12:39. > :12:44.independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP,
:12:45. > :12:51.so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes,
:12:52. > :12:54.it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and
:12:55. > :12:58.the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference
:12:59. > :13:02.season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months,
:13:03. > :13:07.seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we
:13:08. > :13:11.know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on
:13:12. > :13:15.world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying,
:13:16. > :13:20.this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going
:13:21. > :13:25.to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation
:13:26. > :13:28.in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a
:13:29. > :13:32.credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although
:13:33. > :13:37.playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy,
:13:38. > :13:42.the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that
:13:43. > :13:51.do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What
:13:52. > :13:55.the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you
:13:56. > :14:00.are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was
:14:01. > :14:04.none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal
:14:05. > :14:08.responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know
:14:09. > :14:12.what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which
:14:13. > :14:16.were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be
:14:17. > :14:22.the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe
:14:23. > :14:29.out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending,
:14:30. > :14:34.but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate
:14:35. > :14:40.Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is
:14:41. > :14:45.something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now
:14:46. > :14:50.determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next
:14:51. > :14:54.election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do
:14:55. > :14:58.not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before
:14:59. > :15:01.the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that
:15:02. > :15:07.they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we
:15:08. > :15:11.would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not
:15:12. > :15:15.possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority,
:15:16. > :15:19.we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these
:15:20. > :15:22.green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know
:15:23. > :15:28.that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband.
:15:29. > :15:33.How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions
:15:34. > :15:37.across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental
:15:38. > :15:40.shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size
:15:41. > :16:02.fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an
:16:03. > :16:07.historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government
:16:08. > :16:10.Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has
:16:11. > :16:14.tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine
:16:15. > :16:19.motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal
:16:20. > :16:23.travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council
:16:24. > :16:29.tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build
:16:30. > :16:33.their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in
:16:34. > :16:36.bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy
:16:37. > :16:40.announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government
:16:41. > :16:46.still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now?
:16:47. > :16:55.And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday
:16:56. > :17:03.Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said
:17:04. > :17:13.in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local
:17:14. > :17:19.magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving
:17:20. > :17:27.power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If
:17:28. > :17:32.local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight
:17:33. > :17:38.to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy
:17:39. > :17:43.cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because
:17:44. > :17:50.there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money
:17:51. > :17:58.and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a
:17:59. > :18:02.CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep
:18:03. > :18:08.and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend
:18:09. > :18:12.yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then.
:18:13. > :18:18.We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot
:18:19. > :18:25.use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not
:18:26. > :18:30.taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a
:18:31. > :18:38.number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by
:18:39. > :18:44.local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist s to
:18:45. > :18:50.park for 15 minutes in local high street. Why is that your business?
:18:51. > :18:55.I'm trying to ensure that local authorities understand the
:18:56. > :19:02.importance of the town centre. If you look at all opinion polls, right
:19:03. > :19:06.now there is a five-minute leeway but there are many cases of people
:19:07. > :19:13.being jumped on by parking officials for quite trivial things. It is
:19:14. > :19:18.about saying, surely I can go and get a pint of milk. But a party that
:19:19. > :19:25.dines out on localism, that is a matter for local people, not the men
:19:26. > :19:31.in Whitehall. I have to be on the side of local people. That person
:19:32. > :19:36.who wants to go and get a pint of milk. Ultimately it is a matter for
:19:37. > :19:41.them. It is a matter for the council. But a little bit of
:19:42. > :19:46.criticism is not a bad thing. You have now declared war on the wheelie
:19:47. > :19:51.bin and suggested that new homes should have built in storage
:19:52. > :20:04.sections. You just cannot help meddling! I suppose that is
:20:05. > :20:12.possible. You are a meddler! I am in charge of building regulations and
:20:13. > :20:18.planning. So I may have some responsibility there. Another one,
:20:19. > :20:28.interfering in local planning decisions. A couple of places, you
:20:29. > :20:33.ruled in favour of developers. They want to build over 200 houses
:20:34. > :20:41.against the wishes of the parish and district councils. The local MP said
:20:42. > :20:49.the Secretary of State's decision runs roughshod over any concept of
:20:50. > :20:53.localism. Now I have to be a blushing violet because of course
:20:54. > :21:08.this is still potentially subject to judicial review. I have to act
:21:09. > :21:15.properly. And Apple went is entitled to justice. -- an applicant. A local
:21:16. > :21:20.authority has a duty to ensure that is adequate housing for people in
:21:21. > :21:26.their area. This was not a decision that I took as a personal decision,
:21:27. > :21:33.it was on the advice of an inspector. But you contradict what
:21:34. > :21:37.David Cameron himself said in 2 12, he spoke about a vision where we
:21:38. > :21:44.give communities much more say and local control. People in villages
:21:45. > :21:53.fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just
:21:54. > :22:02.done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have
:22:03. > :22:10.is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes But
:22:11. > :22:15.they cannot say, nothing here. They have to have a five-year housing
:22:16. > :22:18.supply. Previous to this government decided exactly where houses would
:22:19. > :22:26.go, now local people can take the lead. Anna Silbury said because of
:22:27. > :22:31.the way your department rules, local authorities now have no alternative
:22:32. > :22:41.but to agree development on green belt land. I do not accept that I
:22:42. > :22:49.think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to
:22:50. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been referred back.
:23:01. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green
:23:01. > :23:06.belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have
:23:07. > :23:13.to remember why we have the green belt. Not
:23:14. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent
:23:15. > :23:18.conurbations bumping into one another. Your
:23:19. > :23:24.conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal
:23:25. > :23:24.what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:25. > :23:36.we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:37. > :23:36.Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:37. > :23:39.housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:40. > :23:49.localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept
:23:50. > :23:57.that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since
:23:58. > :24:05.the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a
:24:06. > :24:07.while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots
:24:08. > :24:14.on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty
:24:15. > :24:19.to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot
:24:20. > :24:26.pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that
:24:27. > :24:31.and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are
:24:32. > :24:38.going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans
:24:39. > :24:44.now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land,
:24:45. > :24:49.including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns
:24:50. > :24:53.Each application will be taken on its own merits. To suggest that
:24:54. > :24:58.there is an assault on the green belt is as far from the truth as you
:24:59. > :25:03.can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell get his job back if the years
:25:04. > :25:08.exonerated? I would be honoured to sit with Andrew Mitchell in the
:25:09. > :25:14.Cabinet. I have always believed his version. But it is a matter for the
:25:15. > :25:18.Prime Minister who he has in government. He would have no problem
:25:19. > :25:25.in seeing him back in Cabinet? Absolutely not. Your mother answered
:25:26. > :25:31.Vulcan junior minister Nick balls said about the Royal Charter for the
:25:32. > :25:36.press, there's nothing we have done that troubles me as much as this. Is
:25:37. > :25:42.that your view? It is not. I accept the compromise agreement put
:25:43. > :25:48.together. If the press want to have an additional protection that the
:25:49. > :25:52.Royal Charter offers, then they can move into the system. But if they
:25:53. > :26:00.want to continue independently that is acceptable to me. But you
:26:01. > :26:05.previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, you said for a free society to
:26:06. > :26:12.operate the river of a free press has to flow without restriction
:26:13. > :26:18.That is what I said at the time We had to find a compromise. And that
:26:19. > :26:26.seems to me to be a better compromise. Let me just show you
:26:27. > :26:38.this little montage of pictures that we have. I could not be happier
:26:39. > :26:50.Then you are in the Desert and there you are in San Francisco. Then you
:26:51. > :27:01.are in the casino. That is my personal favourite. These students
:27:02. > :27:05.took a cardboard cutout of you and took it round the world with them.
:27:06. > :27:10.Did you ever think you would become a student icon? I always felt
:27:11. > :27:19.secretly that that might happen one day. But it came earlier in my
:27:20. > :27:27.career than I thought! Why would they do that? I think they thought I
:27:28. > :27:37.could do with a bit of an airing! I went to Norfolk earlier, but that
:27:38. > :27:39.looks better. Thank you. On Wednesday senior police folk
:27:40. > :27:44.including chief constables, will be questioned by MPs about what's
:27:45. > :27:47.become known as Plebgate. That's the incident in Downing Street last year
:27:48. > :27:49.which led to the resignation of the government chief whip Andrew
:27:50. > :27:51.Mitchell. Last week the Independent Police Complaints Commission
:27:52. > :27:56.questioned the "honesty and integrity" of police officers who
:27:57. > :27:59.met Mr Mitchell following the row. So do scandals like this affect
:28:00. > :28:06.public trust in the police? Here's Adam Fleming.
:28:07. > :28:12.It's a story of politics, the police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew
:28:13. > :28:18.Mitchell, but an MP's researcher called Alex Bryce and his partner
:28:19. > :28:22.Iain Feis. It started on a summer night in
:28:23. > :28:26.2011. They'd been in Parliament After a few words with a police
:28:27. > :28:31.officer, Ian was wrestled to the ground. Alex came to have a look and
:28:32. > :28:35.the same thing happened to him. Both were arrested and charged. These
:28:36. > :28:40.pictures emerged on day one of their trial. A trial that was halted
:28:41. > :28:49.because the police version of events just didn't match the footage. A lot
:28:50. > :28:55.of people with incidence like this which we experienced, people think
:28:56. > :28:59.there is no smoke without fire. So when we said we did nothing wrong,
:29:00. > :29:05.people would think police just would not do that. There is always that
:29:06. > :29:09.underlying view that some people have. I think that has been
:29:10. > :29:13.challenged and people who know us believe that. This year the Met
:29:14. > :29:20.apologised and paid compensation. And it's led to an unlikely sort of
:29:21. > :29:24.friendship. When the truth came out about the Andrew Mitchell story I
:29:25. > :29:30.actually sent him an e-mail to congratulate him about the truth
:29:31. > :29:33.coming out. He did send a reply acknowledging that. So where are we
:29:34. > :29:37.with THAT saga? Remember last September? Andrew Mitchell had a row
:29:38. > :29:40.with police at the gates of Downing Street about his bike. He lost his
:29:41. > :29:47.job as chief whip after accusations he called the officers plebs. That,
:29:48. > :29:50.he's always denied. This week the police watchdog the IPCC suggested
:29:51. > :29:56.that three officers may have lied about a meeting with him at the
:29:57. > :29:58.height of the scandal. Add that to the charge sheet of cases that
:29:59. > :30:05.haven't exactly flattered the police. Like the revelation of a
:30:06. > :30:08.cover up over Hillsborough. The prosecution of an officer from the
:30:09. > :30:13.Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson during protests in 2009. Along with
:30:14. > :30:19.news that undercover officers were told to smear the family of Stephen
:30:20. > :30:21.Lawrence. During Thursday's protest by teachers in Westminster the
:30:22. > :30:27.police operation was really, really relaxed. And recent scandals have
:30:28. > :30:31.done nothing to affect society's view of the boys and girls in blue -
:30:32. > :30:39.or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of the public say they trust the
:30:40. > :30:40.police. And that's not budged since pollsters started measuring it 0
:30:41. > :30:52.years ago. Of course, in Britain, crime is
:30:53. > :30:58.down, so the perception might be that the police is doing a good
:30:59. > :31:02.job. And the rank-and-file recently seamed pretty chipper at this awards
:31:03. > :31:07.ceremony. Is it a good time to be a police officer? It is a good time.
:31:08. > :31:12.Despite all of the headlines? Still a good time. But speak to officers
:31:13. > :31:17.privately, and they say Plebgate is affecting how the public see them.
:31:18. > :31:21.Some of them also think politicians, the Tories especially,
:31:22. > :31:26.are enjoying that a little too much. Adam Fleming reporting there. Going
:31:27. > :31:34.head-to-head on this issue of trust in the police, a Sunday Mirror
:31:35. > :31:42.columnist and Peter Kirkham, former chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let
:31:43. > :31:48.me come to you first. Plebgate, the cover-ups over John Charles De
:31:49. > :31:52.menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the industrial deception over
:31:53. > :31:56.Hillsborough, why is the culture of deceit so prevalent in the police? I
:31:57. > :32:00.do not agree there is a cultural deceit. These are all individual
:32:01. > :32:05.incidents which raise individual issues. I would suggest that your
:32:06. > :32:12.short headline summarising each of them has taken the most negative
:32:13. > :32:17.view of it. How can you be positive about the police's behaviour over
:32:18. > :32:20.Hillsborough? It remains to be seen with the inquiry but we are probably
:32:21. > :32:26.talking about a handful of senior officers, dealing with the
:32:27. > :32:34.paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies being doctored by the police. Well,
:32:35. > :32:38.those testimonies were true to start with, so the officers have told the
:32:39. > :32:45.truth, and they have been changed for some reason. By the police. By
:32:46. > :32:49.the police all lawyers we have got this thing that the police conflates
:32:50. > :32:58.everything. There are 43 forces there is ACPO, there is the College
:32:59. > :33:02.Of Policing... People say it was a handful of police officers, it
:33:03. > :33:07.wasn't, it was six senior police officers who were alleged to have
:33:08. > :33:11.doctored 106 D4 statements. Even today we are hearing that more than
:33:12. > :33:18.1000 officers are yet to be spoken to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we
:33:19. > :33:25.pretend that Hillsborough, and some of these examples, are the exception
:33:26. > :33:30.rather than the rule? What is the evidence that this is now prevalent
:33:31. > :33:33.in our police? I think there is a lot of evidence, and Plebgate is
:33:34. > :33:38.probably the thing which has clinched it. The public want to
:33:39. > :33:43.know, how deep does this girl? The audacity of a group of policemen who
:33:44. > :33:47.think they can set up a Cabinet minister. Five of those who were
:33:48. > :33:50.arrested and bailed still have not been charged. One of those officers
:33:51. > :33:54.actually wrote an e-mail pretending to be a member of the public. I do
:33:55. > :33:59.not see what the problem is in prosecuting them for that. Taking
:34:00. > :34:03.Plebgate, there are loads of different bits of that incident
:34:04. > :34:07.There is the officers on duty in Downing Street, the issue of who
:34:08. > :34:11.leaked the story to the Sun, there are the officers who claim to have
:34:12. > :34:14.been there who would appear not to have been there, and then we have
:34:15. > :34:17.got the West Midlands meeting issue, which has sort of been
:34:18. > :34:26.resolved this week. There has been misconduct. But at a lower level.
:34:27. > :34:31.But it is the audacity of an organisation which thinks it can
:34:32. > :34:34.take on an elected minister and destroy him for their own political
:34:35. > :34:39.purposes, at a time when the Government are cutting please pay,
:34:40. > :34:42.when they are freezing their pensions and reducing their numbers.
:34:43. > :34:46.It looks very much to all of us the public, that the police are at war
:34:47. > :34:50.with the government, and they are going to do anything they can to
:34:51. > :34:54.discredit the Government. The police would have every reason to be at war
:34:55. > :35:03.with the Government, because there if there is a crisis of trust.. But
:35:04. > :35:10.it looks like they fitted up a Cabinet minister. That remains to be
:35:11. > :35:15.seen, it is being investigated. We know that those Birmingham officers,
:35:16. > :35:19.they totally misrepresented to, if not lied outright, about what was
:35:20. > :35:23.said. Again, that is a misrepresentation of what happened.
:35:24. > :35:26.If you actually go and look at what is said, it is plain from the
:35:27. > :35:35.context, they were saying, he has told us nothing new. But he had in
:35:36. > :35:41.the transcript, it said he hadn't. He would not admit he had used the
:35:42. > :35:45.word pleb. He apologised profusely, he said it would never happen again,
:35:46. > :35:52.he said many things that he had not said before. I agree, which is
:35:53. > :35:55.presumably... Thereon many police forces in this country, they have
:35:56. > :36:01.one of the toughest jobs in the land, they end up getting involved
:36:02. > :36:07.in almost anything which happens in society, and there are obviously a
:36:08. > :36:12.number of difficult examples, but what is the evidence that it is out
:36:13. > :36:18.of hand, other than just several bad apples? This bad apples argument, we
:36:19. > :36:21.have some amazing police people, thank God, but it is because of
:36:22. > :36:25.those that we have to root out the bad ones, the ones that are possibly
:36:26. > :36:29.corrupt. From where most of us are standing, the ones who are being
:36:30. > :36:33.accused of being corrupt, there does not seem to be any process to deal
:36:34. > :36:37.with these people. The trouble with a rotten apple is that it spreads.
:36:38. > :36:41.It is not fair on the good cops to be tainted by this, and I think the
:36:42. > :36:48.police force, as an institution... For all of us, we have to respect
:36:49. > :36:53.the police. There is a problem, is there not? People do worry that if
:36:54. > :36:58.you can fit up a Cabinet minister, you can fit up anybody... . I would
:36:59. > :37:03.disagree that anybody has proved that anybody has been fitted up. We
:37:04. > :37:07.are yet to hear what happened at the gates of Downing Street. But what we
:37:08. > :37:15.do know about the gates of Downing Street is that we were told by the
:37:16. > :37:19.police officers that passers-by had heard this incredible row, where
:37:20. > :37:31.Mitchell's file went was bullied. That is not true... . They did not
:37:32. > :37:37.use those words, actually. All right, but it is clear that the
:37:38. > :37:45.Police Federation jumped on this as a politically motivated campaign...
:37:46. > :37:49.I have always said that politics should be kept out of policing. The
:37:50. > :37:53.federation, they cannot go on strike, but this was to covertly
:37:54. > :38:00.political, so I criticise them for that. Do we need a better way of
:38:01. > :38:03.monitoring the police? We need a more competent and properly
:38:04. > :38:09.resourced Independent police commission. But if you look at those
:38:10. > :38:16.Bravery Awards, every police officer, every year, who acts with
:38:17. > :38:23.bravery... That is the police force we want to believe in. That is the
:38:24. > :38:27.police force you have got. We will leave it there. Coming up in just
:38:28. > :38:28.over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to former Lib Minister Jeremy
:38:29. > :38:51.Browne. And in The Week Ahead, As teachers strike over changes to
:38:52. > :38:54.their pensions and conditions of service are they being a responsible
:38:55. > :39:08.for making a fair protest over legitimate grievances?
:39:09. > :39:22.China week on the BBC. A lot about the need to export. Lots of imports
:39:23. > :39:36.in Southampton. Are we doing enough to look outside of our own country?
:39:37. > :39:40.This export market is so important. Is it a culture change or does it
:39:41. > :39:55.need changes in regulation? A little bit of both. Particularly in the
:39:56. > :39:59.luxury goods market. There is great potential for our manufacturers and
:40:00. > :40:05.innovators to grab a piece of that market. Is being part of the global
:40:06. > :40:13.market more important than the European Union? Not more important,
:40:14. > :40:28.but we have to be part of these markets as well. We are making
:40:29. > :40:33.hovercraft in Southhampton that we are selling to the Indian Navy.
:40:34. > :40:41.These growing opportunities are clear our future lies.
:40:42. > :40:50.The CDs of regional strikes right the NASUWT and the NUT has hit our
:40:51. > :40:57.region. Thousands of children got an unexpected day of class and parents
:40:58. > :41:07.had childcare problems. We are joined by the general
:41:08. > :41:14.secretary of the NUT in Portsmouth. Were teachers setting a good example
:41:15. > :41:20.to parents and pupils? It is a last resort and we regret the
:41:21. > :41:25.inconvenience. We have tried to talk to the government but they are not
:41:26. > :41:33.listening. Nurses and police officers do not own tools. Police
:41:34. > :41:42.officers are not allowed to. Nurses do. It does seem to be in the
:41:43. > :41:46.teachers culture. We have been under constant attack. We are not the most
:41:47. > :41:51.popular people in society as far as the government and the press is
:41:52. > :41:56.concerned. But a lot of parents support us. We have asked Michael
:41:57. > :42:02.Gove for the things that could have halted the action. They did halt the
:42:03. > :42:10.action in Wales because they opened up stocks. The did not happen here.
:42:11. > :42:19.This Michael Gove the vehicles to negotiate with? We asked for three
:42:20. > :42:22.things. The first thing was to stop the smashing up of pay and
:42:23. > :42:33.conditions across the country and to enter into proper docs and to have
:42:34. > :42:39.at financial review. Stopping the pay policy roll out. There was
:42:40. > :42:46.national pay across the country. That has been delegated to
:42:47. > :43:01.individual schools. Michael Gove would say this is catching up.
:43:02. > :43:08.Companies have national pay. Is this not really political what you are
:43:09. > :43:24.doing? It is opposition to the general policy. Education has always
:43:25. > :43:32.been a political football. At this point in time terms and conditions
:43:33. > :43:38.are being broken. Most teachers are more concerned about their
:43:39. > :43:43.workloads. We have not tried to make its political. I do not want to go
:43:44. > :43:48.on strike. I would rather be teaching. But if teachers do not
:43:49. > :43:54.make a stand we will not have a profession. During the week you said
:43:55. > :44:04.teachers should have done more to explain this. Michael Gove could
:44:05. > :44:10.have avoided this if he had had the discussions asked for. More could
:44:11. > :44:16.have been done to explain to parents. The unions want to win any
:44:17. > :44:23.of the things they are asking for it will be because parents support
:44:24. > :44:26.them. Who wants their child to be supported by a teacher who is
:44:27. > :44:32.exhausted and demoralised because of the way their pay is being handled?
:44:33. > :44:38.That there was too little effort to get out and talk to parents. I took
:44:39. > :44:44.a straw poll yesterday. I did not find anybody who has been invited
:44:45. > :44:48.into the school or talked to by teachers to explain what it is
:44:49. > :44:57.about. That is what I regret. It could have been an opportunity to
:44:58. > :45:04.get evens onside by the unions. Where do you think parents are with
:45:05. > :45:09.this? Parents feel strongly that they do not understand the objection
:45:10. > :45:13.to performance`related pay. We have rallied teachers doing fantastic
:45:14. > :45:24.work. In my constituency there are fantastic teachers why should they
:45:25. > :45:30.not be rewarded? There is only a limited amount of money. You should
:45:31. > :45:40.not get more just because you have been there for longer. Where is the
:45:41. > :45:48.incentive? If your child is in the class of 30 share who feels that
:45:49. > :45:53.they have not been treated fairly you will not have the most motivated
:45:54. > :45:58.teacher. As parents we have an interest in having the entire
:45:59. > :46:04.teaching workforce as motivated as possible. You want to enable the
:46:05. > :46:11.best teachers to succeed, but you need to be careful about how you do
:46:12. > :46:17.it. I want the best possible teachers to be teaching my children.
:46:18. > :46:21.I do not want teachers to feel they will only get a increases as a
:46:22. > :46:28.result of having worked there longer. There's Michael Gove going
:46:29. > :46:35.about this there right way? Teachers do not have a bad deal. They start
:46:36. > :46:43.off on higher pay and the paper addresses more rapidly than most
:46:44. > :46:49.other developed nations. We are talking about a six point bass keel.
:46:50. > :46:55.Performance`related pay is destructive. Teachers are not so
:46:56. > :47:07.concerned about performance`related pay. It is the workload and
:47:08. > :47:12.continuing until 68. Most people know that teachers work together as
:47:13. > :47:17.a community. Are you closer to settling this as a result of the
:47:18. > :47:20.strike? We are not closer to settling but we are closer to
:47:21. > :47:25.convincing parents what their concerns are. ?61 million is what
:47:26. > :47:32.Oxford council says it must save from it budget.
:47:33. > :47:38.As our political water reports there is a choice between cutting services
:47:39. > :47:49.or maybe finding ways to get more money out of residents.
:47:50. > :47:54.With 61 million to find Oxfordshire County Council is on the hunt for
:47:55. > :48:01.moneymaking opportunities. It hopes raising more cash will mean taking
:48:02. > :48:05.less a way from services. We are looking across all the services that
:48:06. > :48:09.we offer and see where we can find more money. Either circumstances
:48:10. > :48:15.where we can generate more income to help the financial situation. But
:48:16. > :48:20.moneymaking ideas were not at the top of the public's made at meetings
:48:21. > :48:25.this week where talks of possible cuts dominated.
:48:26. > :48:31.We decided to do and scientific market test.
:48:32. > :48:35.The council says it is going to look at always it can find of generating
:48:36. > :48:41.more cash. That could be from the smallest things such as raising
:48:42. > :48:47.library fines, at two charging more to film on the public highway. It
:48:48. > :48:53.could let out County Hall for weddings. More enforcement cameras
:48:54. > :49:00.in bus lanes. On top of that that want us to come up with suggestions
:49:01. > :49:07.about what we might pay more for. I definitely should a more. There is
:49:08. > :49:14.nothing that I like more than writing a cheque to the council. Who
:49:15. > :49:20.would not want to pay a bigger fine? Of course nobody said these things.
:49:21. > :49:23.Here is what they really said. I do not think Oxfordshire County Council
:49:24. > :49:27.needs lessons from the public on how to overcharge them. They are very
:49:28. > :49:33.good at that already. I am on a limited budget. It is hard to pay
:49:34. > :49:42.more than what you are already paying. The council says it has
:49:43. > :49:47.already frozen pay and cap the number of managers by 40%. Some of
:49:48. > :49:53.the ideas have come in such as crowd funding services. If you ask people
:49:54. > :50:01.to pay more for services you will get a lukewarm response. The easiest
:50:02. > :50:05.way for the council to make more money would be to put council tax up
:50:06. > :50:10.but that cannot do that by more than 2% without a referendum and that is
:50:11. > :50:19.no guarantee anyone would vote for a higher price.
:50:20. > :50:26.Eric Pickles has told councils they should look at using money from
:50:27. > :50:32.their reserves. Good Oxfordshire dip into some of the 18 million it has
:50:33. > :50:41.been rainy day money? We are looking at income generation. Once you have
:50:42. > :50:46.sourced the silverware that is it. Reserves were not the only
:50:47. > :50:51.suggestion from Eric Pickles. Last year he published a list of 50 ways
:50:52. > :50:57.to save. It included an idea that Oxfordshire hopes will be a
:50:58. > :51:02.moneyspinner. Some authorities are running a trade and services model.
:51:03. > :51:05.They offer services to other County Council. They make a profit and akin
:51:06. > :51:14.to the authority. Can we replicate that year? Selling council services
:51:15. > :51:23.to other councils. That is something taxpayers may find is more to their
:51:24. > :51:26.taste. Thank you to the market traders
:51:27. > :51:33.dear. What do the public think about these cats? If you are affected by a
:51:34. > :51:39.reduction you are probably upset about it. The BBC survey carried out
:51:40. > :51:43.a couple of weeks ago showed that six out of ten people recognised
:51:44. > :51:47.that their services from their local council were either the same or
:51:48. > :51:57.better despite all the cuts that had been made. I have the survey here.
:51:58. > :52:04.Then collect and, parks, libraries, are going all right. The police and
:52:05. > :52:10.road maintenance is worse. This is to do with overall impressions. This
:52:11. > :52:18.does not reflect where money has been taken out. There are still
:52:19. > :52:23.people being made redundant and services that will suffer. People
:52:24. > :52:29.are directly affected by that. The closure of child centres. People are
:52:30. > :52:32.going to be angry. What people want to see from their council is that
:52:33. > :52:48.they are doing everything they can and many are two capitals cost. To
:52:49. > :52:54.share rules where possible. Like any business they look at ways the
:52:55. > :52:57.services can be streamlined. We only have a certain pot of money. This
:52:58. > :53:03.country is coming out of a massive deficit. It is only fair that we ask
:53:04. > :53:11.people what they want to see provided. I topped to you about this
:53:12. > :53:18.when Labour was in government. You knew there were efficiencies needed
:53:19. > :53:23.and you did not get them. We made huge efficiency savings that there
:53:24. > :53:35.were other ones to be made. This is to do partly with technology. We
:53:36. > :53:39.have had three years now. The second year there was drawing on real
:53:40. > :53:43.efficiencies. The third year you saw services cat that were not used by
:53:44. > :53:51.many people. Things like youth clubs. What you are seeing in
:53:52. > :53:55.Oxfordshire is going to the heart of services. Far more people are
:53:56. > :54:00.noticing. That's why people are becoming more angry about it. The
:54:01. > :54:06.tragedy about this is there is no doubt there were going to be cuts.
:54:07. > :54:11.Because the government went so far and so fast we will not solve the
:54:12. > :54:17.deficits by the next election and there still will be more cuts. It is
:54:18. > :54:26.difficult to see how we get through that. The Prime Minister was asked
:54:27. > :54:31.on Wednesday about the growth of food banks. He gave his response
:54:32. > :54:37.about numbers are rising more under the last government figures from the
:54:38. > :54:46.biggest provider of food banks says that the number of people getting
:54:47. > :54:53.food arsenals is rising. Now Oxfam is contributing funds to deal with
:54:54. > :55:02.poverty in the UK. `` food banks is rising.
:55:03. > :55:07.Do we have the problems of developing countries? No. But what
:55:08. > :55:11.we are seeing is the nature of poverty in this country is changing.
:55:12. > :55:18.We have been tackling poverty in this country for 17 years. Food
:55:19. > :55:22.banks is something we have done over the last three years as we have seen
:55:23. > :55:28.more people becoming more desperate. We have gone from a situation where
:55:29. > :55:32.people needed long`term family and skills support to people being in a
:55:33. > :55:38.situation where they cannot put food on our plate for their families. We
:55:39. > :55:49.still have the same level of benefits in this country. We are not
:55:50. > :55:54.claiming benefits. Benefits in real terms are falling and have been
:55:55. > :55:59.falling for a while. We think there are long`term factors that have led
:56:00. > :56:05.to this problem. The longer term ones are people in work where the
:56:06. > :56:11.real level of wages has been falling for a long time. People have less
:56:12. > :56:18.put aside for Eirene D. If a crisis hits they can get into trouble. If
:56:19. > :56:22.you put that alongside the rising costs of food and housing then
:56:23. > :56:29.people are put in our fragile position. For those on benefit
:56:30. > :56:34.supplementing low wages then the problems are added to by recent
:56:35. > :56:39.benefits changes. You have got a combination of the income squeeze
:56:40. > :56:42.that people have suffered with more immediate changes to the Emirates.
:56:43. > :56:48.It is pushing many people over the edge. Charities like Oxfam and the
:56:49. > :56:56.Red Cross to the associates with disasters abroad think this is on
:56:57. > :56:59.the scale of priorities? When we see individual situations that people
:57:00. > :57:03.are in that they literally feed themselves. People are even going to
:57:04. > :57:07.food banks and turning down food that needs heating up because they
:57:08. > :57:14.have turned off their cookers at home. That is a serious situation.
:57:15. > :57:20.We are not talking about people that are homeless. By definition people
:57:21. > :57:26.who go to a food bank have somewhere to eat it.
:57:27. > :57:35.This is an appalling indictment on your government. Every week the
:57:36. > :57:43.Prime Minister brushes it away. I do not think the prime minister ever
:57:44. > :57:47.does just cast it aside ten times more under Labour. It went up ten
:57:48. > :57:56.times more under Labour. It is worse. If you look at the reasons,
:57:57. > :58:00.one in five is for welfare changes, one in five is cost of living
:58:01. > :58:08.changes. People need food banks were other reasons such as breakdown in
:58:09. > :58:10.families, terrible debt problems. These are problems that have
:58:11. > :58:15.occurred over many years, not just in the last two or three years. One
:58:16. > :58:19.other thing I would say is that under this government people are
:58:20. > :58:27.signposted to food banks in job centres. In the previous governments
:58:28. > :58:32.there was a ban on job centres signposting people to food banks.
:58:33. > :58:41.This is a problem that is a legacy of many years. You are in the same
:58:42. > :58:45.denial as David Cameron. The tenfold increase is from a very small base.
:58:46. > :58:53.The huge increase has happened since. 439 out of the last 40 months
:58:54. > :59:06.living standards have. People fall through their net. In June somebody
:59:07. > :59:10.really applied for DLA. Four months later a decision has not been taken.
:59:11. > :59:15.They then decided to stop the benefits. She has asked for a review
:59:16. > :59:19.and she will not hear a result until December. That will be eight months
:59:20. > :59:25.without hundreds of pounds per month. This is because of the way
:59:26. > :59:31.the benefits system has been changed. It is creating a huge chasm
:59:32. > :59:35.in somebody's finances. These are problems that have been happening
:59:36. > :59:40.ever since I got elected. They are a legacy of the previous government as
:59:41. > :59:47.well. Oxfam would not be doing what they are doing if this deal of this
:59:48. > :00:02.was unprecedented. Frankie. Now our round`up.
:00:03. > :00:11.A new maternity unit and Accident and Emergency for Bournemouth has
:00:12. > :00:17.been shelved after the Competition Commission ruled that a merger was
:00:18. > :00:25.not the in the interests. The European Union says new routes
:00:26. > :00:30.would be safer but unions lobbied against it in Brussels.
:00:31. > :00:34.A seven mile yellow ribbon was wrapped around parts of the Sussex
:00:35. > :00:43.countryside to symbolically protected from plans for a new town.
:00:44. > :00:55.10,000 homes will be built. All the land would be built. Cycle hire
:00:56. > :00:58.moved up a gear in Oxford. Should you get free parking at work?
:00:59. > :01:07.Eastleigh council is under fire after giving staff a payment of ?800
:01:08. > :01:12.per year when it closed a car park. They say they will get the ?800 back
:01:13. > :01:19.because people will spend that money in the public car park so it all
:01:20. > :01:23.comes back to the council. That is the Sunday Politics in the
:01:24. > :01:28.South. Like you to our guests. Keep up with their local politics by
:01:29. > :01:34.reading my blog. down immigration, but not in any way
:01:35. > :01:35.which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests
:01:36. > :01:50.today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky
:01:51. > :01:56.shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And
:01:57. > :02:02.what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for
:02:03. > :02:06.The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and
:02:07. > :02:15.Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this
:02:16. > :02:18.key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those
:02:19. > :02:24.who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The
:02:25. > :02:30.point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I
:02:31. > :02:40.want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and
:02:41. > :02:45.unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the
:02:46. > :02:49.approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a
:02:50. > :02:54.pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and
:02:55. > :02:59.unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the
:03:00. > :03:03.party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think
:03:04. > :03:09.that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But
:03:10. > :03:13.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:14. > :03:19.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:20. > :03:27.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring
:03:28. > :03:31.familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks
:03:32. > :03:35.inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us
:03:36. > :03:39.already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the
:03:40. > :03:42.population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the
:03:43. > :03:46.contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime
:03:47. > :03:51.keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat
:03:52. > :03:56.policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like
:03:57. > :04:00.we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in
:04:01. > :04:03.government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the
:04:04. > :04:06.government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we
:04:07. > :04:10.should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I
:04:11. > :04:17.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:18. > :04:21.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:22. > :04:24.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:25. > :04:31.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:32. > :04:41.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:42. > :04:45.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We
:04:46. > :04:49.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:50. > :04:52.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:53. > :04:56.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:57. > :05:00.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:01. > :05:03.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:04. > :05:07.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:08. > :05:12.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:13. > :05:14.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:15. > :05:24.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:25. > :05:28.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:29. > :05:31.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:32. > :05:34.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:35. > :05:39.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:40. > :05:44.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:45. > :05:46.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:47. > :05:52.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:53. > :05:58.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:59. > :06:03.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and
:06:04. > :06:07.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:08. > :06:12.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:13. > :06:14.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:15. > :06:20.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:21. > :06:23.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:24. > :06:27.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:28. > :06:31.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:32. > :06:43.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:44. > :06:49.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I
:06:50. > :06:56.do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I
:06:57. > :07:01.have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like
:07:02. > :07:05.made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a
:07:06. > :07:09.liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of
:07:10. > :07:13.the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18
:07:14. > :07:18.years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats
:07:19. > :07:21.for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another
:07:22. > :07:29.political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like
:07:30. > :07:31.this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political
:07:32. > :07:36.parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social
:07:37. > :07:40.mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our
:07:41. > :07:43.ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from
:07:44. > :07:54.other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems.
:07:55. > :07:57.Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a
:07:58. > :08:04.candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested
:08:05. > :08:06.anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own
:08:07. > :08:12.decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on
:08:13. > :08:25.whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for
:08:26. > :08:29.joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr
:08:30. > :08:33.Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through
:08:34. > :08:37.an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did
:08:38. > :08:41.not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a
:08:42. > :08:46.failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then
:08:47. > :08:53.start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the
:08:54. > :08:56.danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked
:08:57. > :08:59.like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the
:09:00. > :09:03.Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years,
:09:04. > :09:07.and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right,
:09:08. > :09:12.and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It
:09:13. > :09:15.is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously
:09:16. > :09:19.disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a
:09:20. > :09:23.disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal
:09:24. > :09:27.Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement
:09:28. > :09:31.about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about
:09:32. > :09:38.what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified
:09:39. > :09:43.teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal
:09:44. > :09:48.Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if
:09:49. > :09:54.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:55. > :09:58.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:09:59. > :10:02.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:03. > :10:08.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:09. > :10:12.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:13. > :10:18.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:19. > :10:26.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:27. > :10:30.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:31. > :10:34.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:35. > :10:39.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:40. > :10:50.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:51. > :10:55.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:56. > :11:01.Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas
:11:02. > :11:08.student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure
:11:09. > :11:12.it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London
:11:13. > :11:18.which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting
:11:19. > :11:23.the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the
:11:24. > :11:27.cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the
:11:28. > :11:32.Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of
:11:33. > :11:36.investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not
:11:37. > :11:40.want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails
:11:41. > :11:48.out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station.
:11:49. > :11:55.It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will
:11:56. > :11:59.be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has
:12:00. > :12:03.been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to
:12:04. > :12:13.China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain
:12:14. > :12:17.to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they
:12:18. > :12:21.were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the
:12:22. > :12:24.next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait
:12:25. > :12:28.three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai
:12:29. > :12:31.llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying,
:12:32. > :12:37.fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not,
:12:38. > :12:45.get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck
:12:46. > :12:50.in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis,
:12:51. > :12:54.Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory
:12:55. > :13:03.regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy
:13:04. > :13:11.prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal,
:13:12. > :13:14.whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their
:13:15. > :13:23.energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The
:13:24. > :13:25.expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the
:13:26. > :13:31.figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the
:13:32. > :13:36.result of the next general election. The chief economist at the
:13:37. > :13:40.Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of
:13:41. > :13:44.England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we
:13:45. > :13:49.are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below
:13:50. > :13:58.7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England
:13:59. > :14:02.on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:14:03. > :14:05.on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on
:14:06. > :14:07.Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next
:14:08. > :14:14.Sunday.