:00:35. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:42. > :00:46.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:47. > :00:51.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:52. > :00:54.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:55. > :00:59.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:00. > :01:07.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:08. > :01:10.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:11. > :01:13.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:14. > :01:31.some balls. Stay. It is good fun for In the South, normal shipbuilding in
:01:32. > :01:32.Portsmouth. Workers come to terms with
:01:33. > :01:45.It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:46. > :01:49.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:50. > :01:55.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:56. > :01:59.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:00. > :02:02.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:03. > :02:13.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:14. > :02:16.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:17. > :02:19.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:20. > :02:22.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:23. > :02:25.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:26. > :02:34.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:35. > :02:40.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:41. > :02:45.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:46. > :02:53.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:54. > :02:59.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:00. > :03:04.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:05. > :03:08.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:09. > :03:09.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:10. > :03:14.including interests of the whole world,
:03:15. > :03:19.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:20. > :03:23.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:24. > :03:26.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:27. > :03:35.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:36. > :03:40.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:41. > :03:52.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:53. > :03:59.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:00. > :04:04.disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:05. > :04:08.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:09. > :04:15.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:16. > :04:21.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:22. > :04:28.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:29. > :04:36.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:37. > :04:43.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:44. > :04:48.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:49. > :04:53.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:54. > :05:03.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:04. > :05:12.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:13. > :05:22.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:23. > :05:26.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:27. > :05:34.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:35. > :05:41.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:42. > :05:48.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:49. > :05:53.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:54. > :05:59.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:00. > :06:04.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:05. > :06:11.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:12. > :06:18.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:19. > :06:24.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:25. > :06:28.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:29. > :06:31.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:32. > :06:35.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:36. > :06:45.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:46. > :06:49.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:50. > :06:52.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:53. > :06:59.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:00. > :07:04.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you
:07:05. > :07:09.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:10. > :07:15.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:16. > :07:20.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:21. > :07:24.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:25. > :07:29.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:30. > :07:34.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:35. > :07:39.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:40. > :07:47.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:48. > :07:55.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:56. > :07:59.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:00. > :08:04.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:05. > :08:11.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:12. > :08:15.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:16. > :08:20.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:21. > :08:25.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:26. > :08:31.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:32. > :08:35.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:36. > :08:40.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:41. > :08:44.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:45. > :08:51.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:52. > :08:57.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:08:58. > :09:01.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly
:09:02. > :09:06.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:07. > :09:12.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:13. > :09:17.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:18. > :09:23.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:24. > :09:28.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:29. > :09:38.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:39. > :09:42.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:43. > :09:48.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:49. > :09:52.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:53. > :09:57.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:09:58. > :10:04.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:05. > :10:11.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:12. > :10:15.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:16. > :10:23.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:24. > :10:31.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:32. > :10:39.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We
:10:40. > :10:44.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:45. > :10:49.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:50. > :10:58.world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:10:59. > :11:06.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:07. > :11:11.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:12. > :11:21.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:22. > :11:27.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:28. > :11:32.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:33. > :11:36.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:37. > :11:41.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:42. > :11:46.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:47. > :11:50.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:51. > :11:55.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:56. > :12:00.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:01. > :12:04.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:05. > :12:11.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:12. > :12:17.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:18. > :12:22.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:23. > :12:25.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:26. > :12:35.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:36. > :12:42.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:43. > :12:46.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:47. > :12:55.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,
:12:56. > :12:58.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:12:59. > :13:02.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:03. > :13:09.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:10. > :13:15.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:16. > :13:18.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:19. > :13:23.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:24. > :13:29.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:30. > :13:33.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:34. > :13:38.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:39. > :13:50.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:51. > :14:07.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:08. > :14:12.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:13. > :14:18.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:19. > :14:21.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:22. > :14:27.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:28. > :14:38.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:39. > :14:49.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:50. > :15:00.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:01. > :15:10.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:11. > :15:16.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:17. > :15:21.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:22. > :15:28.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:29. > :15:36.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:37. > :15:40.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4
:15:41. > :15:44.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:45. > :15:49.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:50. > :16:00.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:01. > :16:03.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:04. > :16:08.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:09. > :16:11.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:12. > :16:15.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:16. > :16:19.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:20. > :16:23.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:24. > :16:28.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:29. > :16:32.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:33. > :16:35.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:36. > :16:40.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:41. > :16:45.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:46. > :16:49.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:50. > :16:52.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:53. > :16:55.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:56. > :16:58.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:16:59. > :17:03.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:04. > :17:07.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:08. > :17:11.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:12. > :17:16.for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:17. > :17:21.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system
:17:22. > :17:25.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:26. > :17:30.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:31. > :17:33.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:34. > :17:36.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:37. > :17:40.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:41. > :17:44.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:45. > :17:47.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:48. > :17:51.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:52. > :17:55.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:56. > :17:58.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:17:59. > :18:03.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:04. > :18:10.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:11. > :18:17.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:18. > :18:26.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:27. > :18:30.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:31. > :18:35.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:36. > :18:40.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:41. > :18:44.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:45. > :18:49.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:50. > :18:53.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:54. > :18:56.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:57. > :19:05.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:06. > :19:11.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:12. > :19:16.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:17. > :19:25.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:26. > :19:30.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:31. > :19:34.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:35. > :19:39.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:40. > :19:42.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:43. > :19:46.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:47. > :19:51.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:52. > :19:56.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:57. > :19:59.incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council
:20:00. > :20:04.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:05. > :20:08.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:09. > :20:11.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of
:20:12. > :20:14.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:15. > :20:18.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:19. > :20:22.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:23. > :20:29.spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:30. > :20:33.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:34. > :20:37.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:38. > :20:42.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:43. > :20:47.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:48. > :20:52.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:53. > :20:57.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:58. > :21:00.come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:01. > :21:05.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:06. > :21:09.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:10. > :21:12.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:13. > :21:17.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:18. > :21:21.work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their
:21:22. > :21:25.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:26. > :21:29.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:30. > :21:33.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:34. > :21:37.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:38. > :21:42.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:43. > :21:45.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:46. > :21:50.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:51. > :21:53.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:54. > :21:56.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:57. > :21:59.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:00. > :22:02.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:03. > :22:07.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:08. > :22:10.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:11. > :22:17.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:18. > :22:20.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:21. > :22:25.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:26. > :22:28.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:29. > :22:31.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:32. > :22:35.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:36. > :22:39.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:40. > :22:43.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:44. > :22:46.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:47. > :22:51.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:52. > :22:55.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:56. > :22:59.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:00. > :23:05.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:06. > :23:08.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:09. > :23:13.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:14. > :23:16.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:17. > :23:20.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:21. > :23:25.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:26. > :23:28.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:29. > :23:32.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:33. > :23:37.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:38. > :23:41.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:42. > :23:45.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:46. > :23:50.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:51. > :23:53.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:54. > :23:58.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:23:59. > :24:02.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:03. > :24:07.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:08. > :24:12.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:13. > :24:17.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:18. > :24:22.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:23. > :24:25.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we
:24:26. > :24:27.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:28. > :24:32.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:33. > :24:36.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:37. > :24:39.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:40. > :24:45.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:46. > :24:49.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:50. > :24:53.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:54. > :24:57.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:24:58. > :25:02.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:03. > :25:07.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:08. > :25:10.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:11. > :25:16.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:17. > :25:22.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:23. > :25:24.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:25. > :25:28.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:29. > :25:33.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:34. > :25:40.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:41. > :25:45.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:46. > :25:49.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:50. > :25:53.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:54. > :25:57.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:25:58. > :26:00.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:01. > :26:05.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow
:26:06. > :26:10.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:11. > :26:13.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:14. > :26:17.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:18. > :26:21.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:22. > :26:24.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:25. > :26:31.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:32. > :26:34.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:35. > :26:38.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:39. > :26:42.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:43. > :26:45.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:46. > :26:49.rise with that amount of growth What do you do then? We have not
:26:50. > :26:52.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:53. > :26:57.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:26:58. > :27:01.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:02. > :27:06.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:07. > :27:09.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:10. > :27:13.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:14. > :27:19.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:20. > :27:24.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:25. > :27:27.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:28. > :27:32.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:33. > :27:34.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:35. > :27:39.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:40. > :27:46.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:47. > :27:50.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line
:27:51. > :27:52.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:53. > :27:58.Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused
:27:59. > :28:04.-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All
:28:05. > :28:09.right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have
:28:10. > :28:13.signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press
:28:14. > :28:18.regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none
:28:19. > :28:22.will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to
:28:23. > :28:26.make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not
:28:27. > :28:29.the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and
:28:30. > :28:33.basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own
:28:34. > :28:37.regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If
:28:38. > :28:41.they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was
:28:42. > :28:45.decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass
:28:46. > :28:49.legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up
:28:50. > :28:54.what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.
:28:55. > :28:57.OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press
:28:58. > :29:02.Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,
:29:03. > :29:05.then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is
:29:06. > :29:09.independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been
:29:10. > :29:13.skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down
:29:14. > :29:18.and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us
:29:19. > :29:21.then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped
:29:22. > :29:25.back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and
:29:26. > :29:29.say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent
:29:30. > :29:33.and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very
:29:34. > :29:37.interesting. Thank you for that That's really interesting that if
:29:38. > :29:42.they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We
:29:43. > :29:48.want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and
:29:49. > :29:52.direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to
:29:53. > :29:56.ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by
:29:57. > :30:01.gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first
:30:02. > :30:06.appeared way back in 1970. That s 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called
:30:07. > :30:23.for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless
:30:24. > :30:35.photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three
:30:36. > :30:45.should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it
:30:46. > :30:57.at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family
:30:58. > :31:07.newspaper. Should it stay or go Go. I will look like the bad guy. It
:31:08. > :31:17.should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do
:31:18. > :31:30.not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know
:31:31. > :31:35.when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age
:31:36. > :31:45.Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are
:31:46. > :31:49.other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:50. > :31:58.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:31:59. > :32:06.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:07. > :32:11.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:12. > :32:17.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:18. > :32:24.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:25. > :32:30.the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:31. > :32:43.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:44. > :32:49.think the council should do something about their car parks!
:32:50. > :32:58.Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,
:32:59. > :33:04.that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,
:33:05. > :33:11.lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as
:33:12. > :33:19.empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see
:33:20. > :33:28.it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats!
:33:29. > :33:36.It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What
:33:37. > :33:44.about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do
:33:45. > :33:54.you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her.
:33:55. > :34:00.I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about
:34:01. > :34:09.her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she
:34:10. > :34:16.has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More
:34:17. > :34:26.people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not
:34:27. > :34:32.really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am
:34:33. > :34:38.not arguing it should be banned. I have not argued for it to be banned
:34:39. > :34:50.but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it
:34:51. > :34:54.should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content
:34:55. > :34:58.but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in
:34:59. > :35:04.21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women
:35:05. > :35:08.in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think
:35:09. > :35:19.women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in
:35:20. > :35:22.public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political
:35:23. > :35:27.importance, that it had in the 1980s when page three was at its height.
:35:28. > :35:34.Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting
:35:35. > :35:39.this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years
:35:40. > :35:44.ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am
:35:45. > :35:51.entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to
:35:52. > :36:01.establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should
:36:02. > :36:06.people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be
:36:07. > :36:13.banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott
:36:14. > :36:19.the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of
:36:20. > :36:23.which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the
:36:24. > :36:30.press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than
:36:31. > :36:37.taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers.
:36:38. > :36:43.Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by
:36:44. > :36:49.saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should
:36:50. > :36:54.people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you
:36:55. > :37:02.like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you
:37:03. > :37:07.should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what
:37:08. > :37:12.the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three.
:37:13. > :37:18.If they changed it in Australia, which is where Rupert Murdoch came
:37:19. > :37:22.from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the
:37:23. > :37:24.Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking
:37:25. > :37:37.to man leading the campaign Welcome To Sunday Politics South, My
:37:38. > :37:40.Name's Peter Henley. On Today's Show: The End Of Shipbuilding In
:37:41. > :37:43.Portsmouth. What Future Now For The Workers
:37:44. > :37:50.Affected, Industry In The City, And The Wider Economy Of South
:37:51. > :37:57.Hampshire? More Than That Soon. Let's Meet The
:37:58. > :38:03.Politicians Who Will Be With Me. Alan Whitehead is the Labour MP for
:38:04. > :38:09.Southampton. A lot of job losses this week. Is this a reminder that
:38:10. > :38:18.the recovery has not reached everyone? It is a patchy recovery.
:38:19. > :38:24.It is a recovery that seems to be concentrated in London more than
:38:25. > :38:27.anywhere else. The news and the effects across the rest of the
:38:28. > :38:33.country are very uneven. A number of con `` a number of companies will
:38:34. > :38:41.suffer badly from a very long time. These are some of the results. A lot
:38:42. > :38:46.of people still under wages. It is the tail end. There are real green
:38:47. > :38:54.shoots coming out. These are two industries you have talk about that
:38:55. > :39:00.have issues there. A lot of skilled people. And a lot of people with
:39:01. > :39:05.that huge amount of corporate knowledge and skills. We need to
:39:06. > :39:14.think about how we capture that. That has happened again. We have had
:39:15. > :39:20.Pfizer in Kent. We need to capture knowledge because they do not want
:39:21. > :39:24.to lose it out of the country. The cost of living aspect is very
:39:25. > :39:27.important, isn't it? People do not have money in their pockets. Maybe
:39:28. > :39:33.month `` maybe confidence could go away. Recovery from recession has to
:39:34. > :39:41.start being felt in people's pockets as well. That is not the case at the
:39:42. > :39:43.moment. It also has to be felt in terms of building those sorts of
:39:44. > :39:48.industries in the longer term that are going to be durable for the
:39:49. > :39:54.South. And the idea that the South is just the engine of the economy
:39:55. > :39:58.and is not subject to the sort of problems is completely false. It
:39:59. > :40:04.shows just how much work we need to do to make sure those industries
:40:05. > :40:07.work. If we came out all guns blazing from a recession, you would
:40:08. > :40:12.be really worried about that. It is a very, very slow coming out, which
:40:13. > :40:16.will probably mean we have sound foundations. There are new
:40:17. > :40:21.businesses coming and people are developing. I was speaking to a
:40:22. > :40:29.company last night, order books are full. Rolls`Royce in Chichester is
:40:30. > :40:32.expanding. We have some growth. But actually, out of any recession, it
:40:33. > :40:42.is a slow and steady growth that you want. You do not want a Big Bang,
:40:43. > :40:47.because you will go bust again. It has been a week of bad employment
:40:48. > :40:49.news in the South and the worst was undoubtedly on Wednesday with the
:40:50. > :40:52.announcement that shipbuilding in Portsmouth would cease from next
:40:53. > :40:55.year, with the loss of around 1,100 jobs at BAE Systems. There will
:40:56. > :40:59.still be refurbishment and repair work done on Royal Navy ships but
:41:00. > :41:02.any building work now transfers to Govan on the Clyde. Was it all dirty
:41:03. > :41:05.politics, muddied by the Scottish referendum, as some have claimed, or
:41:06. > :41:08.an acknowledgement that there just isn't enough work to keep two yards
:41:09. > :41:14.going? Gerald Vernon`Jackson is leader of Portsmouth City Council
:41:15. > :41:17.and joins us now. Only ten months until the Scottish
:41:18. > :41:22.referendum. Is there a point to just trying to keep BAE Systems all those
:41:23. > :41:25.facilities available in case they are needed and what needs to be
:41:26. > :41:31.brought back by the MOD into England? Yes. The decision was wrong
:41:32. > :41:37.for Portsmouth and the whole of the South and wrong for the Navy and
:41:38. > :41:40.Britain. Partly because the referendum is ten months away. Are
:41:41. > :41:46.you aiming to keep those facilities in case they are needed for MOD
:41:47. > :41:51.warship building? BAE say the last work will finish in September of
:41:52. > :41:58.2014. The referendum is in October 2014. I hope they will not dismantle
:41:59. > :42:03.things of that period. If Scotland does choose to go independent and
:42:04. > :42:12.the work could come back down here to the South coast, the facilities
:42:13. > :42:17.would remain. The City Council with a union campaign, will fight this
:42:18. > :42:21.decision? We mustn't let it happen? There isn't a chancel decision to be
:42:22. > :42:27.changed at the moment. But the referendum would change it? BAE as a
:42:28. > :42:30.company has decided to move the work to Scotland. Government ministers
:42:31. > :42:35.have clearly decided to support that. The Labour opposition front
:42:36. > :42:39.bench have also decided to support that. I do not see any allies. Why
:42:40. > :42:45.bother keeping those facilities open for warship building? Why not start
:42:46. > :42:51.trying to building, as these people have suggested, move on and get a
:42:52. > :42:54.better deal from the Government? We need to make sure we have the work
:42:55. > :43:00.and people employed maintaining Royal Nagy `` Royal Navy ships. We
:43:01. > :43:03.need to make sure that workers secure and we can grow that work. If
:43:04. > :43:07.that is an ability to bring shipbuilding back to Portsmouth,
:43:08. > :43:10.great. The record of UK shipbuilding competing with other countries
:43:11. > :43:15.around the world is not good. When the Royal Navy went out to buy for
:43:16. > :43:22.new tankers, no British yards bid. Nobody did. Nobody has the skills
:43:23. > :43:26.any more left to be able to bid for that work. Once these skills go, it
:43:27. > :43:31.is very, very difficult to rebuild them. I think we have to do a twin
:43:32. > :43:34.track approach. We have to see if we can win more work for maintaining
:43:35. > :43:40.ships in Portsmouth, so keeping on some of the guys that have lost jobs
:43:41. > :43:43.this week. Still working with the Royal Navy, maintaining ships. It is
:43:44. > :43:49.very similar skills and BAE wants to move people between the two areas.
:43:50. > :43:52.But also, if it is possible to keep the facilities available so that
:43:53. > :43:55.Scotland does Ford to become independent, the Royal Navy will not
:43:56. > :43:58.have to go and buy ships from a foreign country, an independent
:43:59. > :44:02.country, which they have never done. The Royal Navy has to have the
:44:03. > :44:07.ability to build ships here in the United Kingdom. There was a lot of
:44:08. > :44:11.politics in this. You talk about the Scottish decision. But you could see
:44:12. > :44:15.the day was always going to come and you made the warnings about
:44:16. > :44:20.Portsmouth. How much do feel stitched up by your own Government?
:44:21. > :44:24.There is a long`term problem, which is we're not having enough warships
:44:25. > :44:33.built. How much you feel stitched up? Can I answer the question? When
:44:34. > :44:39.Mrs Thatcher became prime minister, we had 79 frigates and Destroyers.
:44:40. > :44:44.Now we have 19. There just isn't the work. All parties have failed to
:44:45. > :44:51.order enough ships so that our media just 30,000 people. We have shrunk
:44:52. > :44:55.and shrunk and shone. `` and shrunk. Ministers have a sensible point that
:44:56. > :45:01.there is not enough work. Maybe the question is, should we be building
:45:02. > :45:04.more warships? Fine, but all over the years you have had discussions
:45:05. > :45:07.in public or private with people, well below suggestions to you,
:45:08. > :45:13.look, you will have to prepare for the closure of this yard? BAE
:45:14. > :45:16.Systems have been quite clear that is not enough work, not enough
:45:17. > :45:22.contracts given by the Government to sustain three yards. That has been
:45:23. > :45:27.obvious. The agreement signed by the last Labour Government and BAE said
:45:28. > :45:31.that the things would happen. BAE would be paid over ?200 million a
:45:32. > :45:35.year for shipbuilding even if they build nothing by the Government.
:45:36. > :45:38.Secondly, all shipbuilding should be consolidated in one company. And the
:45:39. > :45:45.third thing was that ship loading should reduce. Rationalisation, they
:45:46. > :45:48.call it. That was the agreement signed by the last Government and
:45:49. > :45:53.BAE. This has been around for a long time. I do not think it is the right
:45:54. > :45:57.decision, particularly not in the strategic sense, for the future of
:45:58. > :46:01.the Royal Navy. We should retain somewhere in England the ability to
:46:02. > :46:05.build advanced service warships. There will be many people, unions
:46:06. > :46:12.included, who feel this is a decision that could be thought.
:46:13. > :46:15.There's a Labour Party believe that? The position of the Labour Party is
:46:16. > :46:22.rather nuanced terms of the idea that yes, the need to be a review.
:46:23. > :46:27.And yes, there needed to be some coherence in future shipbuilding
:46:28. > :46:33.policy. But it is quite clear that the decision that was reached on
:46:34. > :46:39.this particular occasion, not just to consolidate shipbuilding but as
:46:40. > :46:41.far as Portsmouth is concerned, to take the rest of the aircraft
:46:42. > :46:46.carrier away in the end, even though that had been agreed so to be built
:46:47. > :46:52.in Portsmouth. It seems to smack of a hurried endgame decision which
:46:53. > :46:57.needn't have been done in that particular way. It could have been
:46:58. > :47:02.planned for a rather different way. The Government needs to offer more
:47:03. > :47:07.help, doesn't it? The review started about 18 months ago. I remember
:47:08. > :47:13.talking about what if, about a year ago. It has been there. We know the
:47:14. > :47:20.situation. We know the Government inherited a ?38 billion hole in
:47:21. > :47:27.defence spending. Is this the Government are BAE decision? It is a
:47:28. > :47:31.BAE decision. It is clearly be a decision. Making sure maintenance is
:47:32. > :47:35.being run there and using those skills, it has got to be the way
:47:36. > :47:44.forward. But not now hundred and 40 jobs. It is a really big thing. ``
:47:45. > :47:47.940 jobs. Let's hope support does come.
:47:48. > :47:50.And tomorrow night you can see an Inside Out special on Portsmouth.
:47:51. > :47:53.They'll be looking at the background to the decision and its impact on
:47:54. > :47:56.the families of those most affected. That's on BBC One at 7.30.
:47:57. > :47:59.We all know that our ageing population is causing real
:48:00. > :48:02.challenges for care providers, with all the tensions between people
:48:03. > :48:05.wanting to stay in their own homes but maybe needing more intensive
:48:06. > :48:08.care as they get older. As our Berkshire political reporter Patrick
:48:09. > :48:14.O'Hagan has been finding out, the future could be in what are called
:48:15. > :48:18.extra care homes. Meet Hannah. Two years ago, she
:48:19. > :48:21.watched out of the window as one of the new generation of so`called
:48:22. > :48:27.extra care homes was built for her. As well as 60 others. Now she is in,
:48:28. > :48:33.she cannot imagine living anywhere else. It was just unbelievable. It
:48:34. > :48:39.did not take me very long. Within one week, I had actually settled
:48:40. > :48:45.here. The smell of boiled cabbage here. Everyone living here has their
:48:46. > :48:49.own flat with ensuite facilities. You can mingle with others if you
:48:50. > :48:55.want to, but that is not Hannah's style. I live in two worlds. I live
:48:56. > :49:03.in the world downstairs and the world here. When I put Mike and my
:49:04. > :49:09.daughter, this is my world. We are facing a crisis, a growing elderly
:49:10. > :49:13.population and rising care costs calls for bold solutions. Extra care
:49:14. > :49:19.homes do just that. They provide extra care. So when someone like
:49:20. > :49:21.Hannah can no longer cope on their own, they moved to another part of
:49:22. > :49:27.the building for more specialist help. Crucially, they are not moved
:49:28. > :49:30.on to another home. There is more security knowing there is help there
:49:31. > :49:33.if they need it. But also the Flex ability and freedom to be as
:49:34. > :49:39.independent as they like. `` the flexibility. With ageing population,
:49:40. > :49:46.that is what we need. We need more of these homes. Reading Borough
:49:47. > :49:50.Council will be building to extra care homes in the next four years.
:49:51. > :49:54.That is because the population of reading's over 85 is assessed to
:49:55. > :49:58.double in the next two years. That means it is going up to around 6000
:49:59. > :50:03.people. Reading gave the land to this development free of charge.
:50:04. > :50:09.Everything else was paid for by a housing association. It did not cost
:50:10. > :50:16.Reading Borough Council taxpayers' money. It meant that the council had
:50:17. > :50:19.to work very closely with the Housing Association and they were
:50:20. > :50:24.able to finance it out of the rent they would get in the future. Sounds
:50:25. > :50:28.pretty much like a private care home, really, the difference being
:50:29. > :50:36.that Oaktree and the nuclear homes that the council wants to open the
:50:37. > :50:43.building to people on benefits. `` will be open to people on benefits.
:50:44. > :50:47.Some of the horns the council homes `` owns a 50 years old. It will
:50:48. > :50:51.invest millions of pounds on the extra care model. Unlike reading, it
:50:52. > :50:57.will be more involved in building the new facilities. The number of
:50:58. > :51:00.people wanting to get into a residential home per se will be
:51:01. > :51:05.going down, and I do think that extra care provision whether it is
:51:06. > :51:10.an apartment where couples can live instead of splitting up couples as
:51:11. > :51:15.often has to happen, I think for once it is looking better. But
:51:16. > :51:20.before you can even think about opening new extra care homes, you
:51:21. > :51:26.need to shut down older ones. That has caused problems in Hampshire. I
:51:27. > :51:33.am broke extra care housing but it is not for people living and a care
:51:34. > :51:36.home with dementia. They cannot live independently. They can never have
:51:37. > :51:42.their own front door or key. We cannot do that. Our expectations for
:51:43. > :51:46.how people like Hannah and ultimately ourselves should be
:51:47. > :51:50.looked after arising. The dilemma for care providers is how to match
:51:51. > :51:57.these expectations in a time where money is becoming increasingly
:51:58. > :52:01.skills. `` skills. It is not for business, isn't it?
:52:02. > :52:06.But it is staying ahead and providing what people want. You need
:52:07. > :52:11.to build a range of options for people. We have all got elderly
:52:12. > :52:16.people. It is great and it is fantastic. But various people need
:52:17. > :52:21.these things from assisted technology to homes which are great
:52:22. > :52:25.success. We have 12 in West Sussex across the county. How long have
:52:26. > :52:33.they been operating? Over the last few years. People really enjoy it.
:52:34. > :52:41.We're looking at another style of that at the moment and which we
:52:42. > :52:47.might invest in. It is not just one option that fits everything. So, for
:52:48. > :52:54.dementia, maybe? That will need very different care. We have got to
:52:55. > :53:01.provide that range to give people the choice. And solutions in a city
:53:02. > :53:06.like Southampton, it might be different to country areas. Is
:53:07. > :53:10.assisted living the future? It is part of the future. It is a very
:53:11. > :53:16.attractive idea that as you require more care, you will certainly live
:53:17. > :53:21.longer, then you are in the same circumstances. You're not being
:53:22. > :53:27.uprooted and being thrown into some apparently alien environment. I
:53:28. > :53:29.think that is very important. It certainly is not something that can
:53:30. > :53:35.replace everything else that is there. Certainly, you cannot do it
:53:36. > :53:41.any more than a city than in a real environment. There needs to be a
:53:42. > :53:45.palette of independent and assisted and fairly heavily assisted care
:53:46. > :53:51.available. It is actually add`ons, I think, rather than substitutions.
:53:52. > :53:54.The big cost of the future. Next week sees the first anniversary
:53:55. > :53:57.of the Police and Crime Commissioner elections. They didn't produce the
:53:58. > :54:01.best turnout ever ` just 15% of us went to the polling station. They
:54:02. > :54:04.were supposed to be setting local policing priorities, holding their
:54:05. > :54:07.forces to account and coming up with improvements in crime`fighting. So,
:54:08. > :54:09.12 months on, how have they been doing? Anthony Stansfeld is the
:54:10. > :54:16.Commissioner for Thames Valley and joins us now from our Oxford studio.
:54:17. > :54:24.Mr Stansfeld, crime is down. Is it your fault? I would like to think I
:54:25. > :54:28.had a small part to play. It is largely but not entirely the police.
:54:29. > :54:32.We have set the priorities and made a real area `` effort in areas.
:54:33. > :54:39.Burglaries have come down in enormous amounts. They have come
:54:40. > :54:43.down about 20% this year. In areas such as Reading, 40%. That is a huge
:54:44. > :54:50.reduction in crime and the overall reduction is over 10%. You are a
:54:51. > :54:54.conservative. Several in our area, sorry, Dorset, independence,
:54:55. > :54:58.Hampshire as well. People talk about the politicisation of the police.
:54:59. > :55:04.Does it make a difference that you are a conservative? I do not think
:55:05. > :55:09.it matters at all. Politics does not seem to come into it. Simon Hayes in
:55:10. > :55:15.Hampshire is a good friend of mine it is not an issue at all. One of
:55:16. > :55:20.the issues as the cost of it all. You have a chief executive costing
:55:21. > :55:24.?93,000 a year. You are quoted in one of the newspapers as saying
:55:25. > :55:28.that, I am extreme good value for money. If I could hire myself, I
:55:29. > :55:35.would charge a lot more. Is that true? I never said that. It is
:55:36. > :55:39.absolute rubbish. It is true that my chief executive earns 93,000, which
:55:40. > :55:42.is considerably more than I do. I inherited my staff from the police
:55:43. > :55:47.authority. The police authority had a budget of about 1.6 million and we
:55:48. > :55:51.saved about ?600,000, which were not spending from. It is much cheaper
:55:52. > :55:54.now. If you were paid more, you would not have to charge for travel
:55:55. > :55:58.expenses, which has caused a lot of trouble. I've taken a lot of flak
:55:59. > :56:03.over that and the arrangement you have a car and driver. Yes, the
:56:04. > :56:09.Sunday mail had to make an apology because they got all the facts
:56:10. > :56:17.wrong. Quite an embarrassment for you, though. I think the pay is very
:56:18. > :56:22.fair indeed. It is considerably less than any executive in a hospital or
:56:23. > :56:25.an executive at the BBC. I have about 20 people if not more in my
:56:26. > :56:30.own police force that more money than I do. That is a very minor
:56:31. > :56:37.issue, I think. That sends a very `` that sends a bit like a pay claim. I
:56:38. > :56:41.am adequately recompense. You have this community partnership money.
:56:42. > :56:45.The suggestion is because you have a priority for rural areas, that was
:56:46. > :56:49.one of your objectives, that maybe you would take stuff away from the
:56:50. > :56:51.city. Some of the councils are concerned about that. Will you make
:56:52. > :56:58.that money go where there is the highest risk of crime or do you want
:56:59. > :57:02.to adjust the formula? No. The formula which I inherited in some
:57:03. > :57:06.areas was very distorted. Milton Keynes, for instance, which is half
:57:07. > :57:11.as big as Reading, was getting from the Home Office have as much as
:57:12. > :57:15.Reading. I have to even things out a bit. It does not affect rural areas.
:57:16. > :57:22.The amount of money in the budget has been the just by 20%. That is
:57:23. > :57:25.through savings in the areas. Nowhere is getting a cut of anywhere
:57:26. > :57:29.like that. In the first year, I maintained a funding at its previous
:57:30. > :57:33.level largely from cuts in my own budget. It will not carry on like
:57:34. > :57:41.that, you're seeing, for areas with high risk crime? Now, if you have a
:57:42. > :57:43.20% cut, you will have to pass some of it on. I think everyone is
:57:44. > :57:48.extremely satisfied that we have come to a very good arrangement.
:57:49. > :57:50.Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60
:57:51. > :58:03.seconds. In the week coastal defences were
:58:04. > :58:09.deliberately breached in West Sussex, the South saw a tide of
:58:10. > :58:15.protest. Probation officers went on strike across the region in protest
:58:16. > :58:18.at privatisation. On the same day, Oxfordshire County
:58:19. > :58:24.Council saw demonstrations as they consulted on cuts.
:58:25. > :58:28.And job centres saw from people whose benefits have been sanctioned
:58:29. > :58:32.and money withheld. The Government says rules are clear but citizens
:58:33. > :58:36.advice as early system is too harsh. Talk to the person who is about to
:58:37. > :58:42.be sanctioned. Listen to the story first. Government ministers were
:58:43. > :58:45.concentrating on new jobs and skills. Vince Cable was at this
:58:46. > :58:50.technical College for 14 to 18`year`olds. You can see the
:58:51. > :58:56.difference that is made by having a course that is linked to practical
:58:57. > :59:05.work. Despite demonstrations of the Army incinerator, it came online
:59:06. > :59:08.coming waste to electricity. Lots of protests. They ever make a
:59:09. > :59:13.difference and what is the best way of influencing people, really? It is
:59:14. > :59:19.a combination of things. The protesting is an essential part of
:59:20. > :59:26.the Democratic political process. A placard, megaphone... I have to say
:59:27. > :59:29.that by the time you get to a position where people feel so driven
:59:30. > :59:34.to protest in the way they do, lots of other things have passed under
:59:35. > :59:36.the bridge. It is necessary, it seems to me, to make sure the
:59:37. > :59:43.political process is accountable as it can be along the line. Protests
:59:44. > :59:46.sometimes a last throw of the dice for people who fielded as nothing
:59:47. > :59:53.else they can do whilst everything else has failed. You have got to see
:59:54. > :59:58.the problems coming. Indeed. That is part of the communications. If
:59:59. > :00:02.people feel very strongly about it, there will be protests. They can do
:00:03. > :00:05.that and it is a democratic right. The whole thing I've tried to get
:00:06. > :00:08.communications right, working with people, explaining what we have to
:00:09. > :00:13.do. We have all got big challenges coming up. Particularly on the
:00:14. > :00:19.budgets. That is where we have to leave it for this week. Thank you to
:00:20. > :00:24.my guests for joining us. Don't forget, you can keep up`to`date by
:00:25. > :00:26.reading my blog with things here in the South.
:00:27. > :00:38.more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:39. > :00:42.We learned this week that no more warships will be built at
:00:43. > :00:46.Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose
:00:47. > :00:49.and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the
:00:50. > :00:54.Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the
:00:55. > :01:03.United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign
:01:04. > :01:07.for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to
:01:08. > :01:16.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:17. > :01:20.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:21. > :01:26.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:27. > :01:30.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:31. > :01:34.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:35. > :01:40.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:41. > :01:45.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:46. > :01:51.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:52. > :01:59.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:00. > :02:04.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:05. > :02:08.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:09. > :02:13.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:14. > :02:19.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:20. > :02:25.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:26. > :02:29.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:30. > :02:34.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If
:02:35. > :02:43.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:44. > :02:47.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:48. > :02:51.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:52. > :02:57.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:58. > :03:04.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:05. > :03:08.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:09. > :03:13.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:14. > :03:18.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:19. > :03:22.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:23. > :03:27.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:28. > :03:30.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:31. > :03:35.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:36. > :03:40.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:41. > :03:45.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:46. > :03:50.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:51. > :03:57.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:03:58. > :04:04.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:05. > :04:13.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:14. > :04:19.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:20. > :04:23.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:24. > :04:28.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:29. > :04:31.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:32. > :04:36.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:37. > :04:47.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:48. > :04:55.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:56. > :05:02.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:03. > :05:07.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:08. > :05:13.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:14. > :05:18.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:19. > :05:20.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:21. > :05:26.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:27. > :05:32.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:33. > :05:36.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:37. > :05:40.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:41. > :05:46.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:47. > :05:50.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:51. > :05:53.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:54. > :05:58.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:05:59. > :06:03.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:04. > :06:08.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:09. > :06:13.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:14. > :06:18.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:19. > :06:24.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:25. > :06:29.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:30. > :06:33.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:34. > :06:37.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:38. > :06:41.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:42. > :06:46.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:47. > :06:50.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:51. > :06:54.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:55. > :07:00.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:01. > :07:08.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:09. > :07:13.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:14. > :07:18.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:19. > :07:24.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:25. > :07:28.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:29. > :07:32.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:33. > :07:35.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:36. > :07:39.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:40. > :07:44.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:45. > :07:50.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave
:07:51. > :07:54.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:55. > :07:58.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:07:59. > :08:00.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:01. > :08:04.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:05. > :08:07.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:08. > :08:11.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:12. > :08:20.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:21. > :08:25.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:26. > :08:32.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:33. > :08:38.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:39. > :08:45.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:46. > :08:51.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I
:08:52. > :09:16.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:17. > :09:23.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that
:09:24. > :09:29.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:30. > :09:36.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:37. > :09:41.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:42. > :09:46.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:47. > :09:51.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:52. > :10:02.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:03. > :10:08.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:09. > :10:13.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:14. > :10:16.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:17. > :10:20.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:21. > :10:27.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:28. > :10:34.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:35. > :10:39.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:40. > :10:44.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:45. > :10:48.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:49. > :10:56.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:57. > :10:59.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:00. > :11:03.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:04. > :11:08.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:09. > :11:14.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:15. > :11:18.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:19. > :11:24.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He
:11:25. > :11:32.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:33. > :11:37.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:38. > :11:40.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:41. > :11:45.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:46. > :11:50.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:51. > :11:54.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:55. > :12:02.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,
:12:03. > :12:07.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:08. > :12:12.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:13. > :12:24.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:25. > :12:33.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:34. > :12:37.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:38. > :12:41.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:42. > :12:45.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:46. > :12:50.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:51. > :12:59.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:00. > :13:04.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:05. > :13:10.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.
:13:11. > :13:14.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:15. > :13:19.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:20. > :13:25.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:26. > :13:28.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:29. > :13:32.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:33. > :13:42.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.