:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:57.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:58. > :01:09.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:10. > :01:16.In the South: Should we be looking to the 1950s for a solution to our
:01:17. > :01:19.house`building crisis? Building a whole new town could be a
:01:20. > :01:22.better answer than piecemeal developments.
:01:23. > :01:24.Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who
:01:25. > :01:27.else but the Minister for Portsmouth.
:01:28. > :01:32.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the
:01:33. > :01:35.business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more
:01:36. > :01:46.volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:47. > :01:49.throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is
:01:50. > :01:51.considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s
:01:52. > :02:01.former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer
:02:02. > :02:04.appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against
:02:05. > :02:06.him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate
:02:07. > :02:17.behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are
:02:18. > :02:20.demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for
:02:21. > :02:24.and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going
:02:25. > :02:30.away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got
:02:31. > :02:36.seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a
:02:37. > :02:41.reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no
:02:42. > :02:45.female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not
:02:46. > :02:50.encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You
:02:51. > :02:56.feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous
:02:57. > :03:02.process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the
:03:03. > :03:06.evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But
:03:07. > :03:10.clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible
:03:11. > :03:18.and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.
:03:19. > :03:22.Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat
:03:23. > :03:27.peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not
:03:28. > :03:34.reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political
:03:35. > :03:39.issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party
:03:40. > :03:43.whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster
:03:44. > :03:50.enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,
:03:51. > :03:53.it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from
:03:54. > :03:58.the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They
:03:59. > :04:01.presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more
:04:02. > :04:16.Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder
:04:17. > :04:19.to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more
:04:20. > :04:24.relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.
:04:25. > :04:30.That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib
:04:31. > :04:35.Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything
:04:36. > :04:40.that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of
:04:41. > :04:44.Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of
:04:45. > :04:49.what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a
:04:50. > :04:56.cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage
:04:57. > :04:59.the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there
:05:00. > :05:05.was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the
:05:06. > :05:09.by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it
:05:10. > :05:14.did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without
:05:15. > :05:19.their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go
:05:20. > :05:29.away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will
:05:30. > :05:32.come week. -- will come up this week.
:05:33. > :05:35.So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of
:05:36. > :05:38.this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the
:05:39. > :05:41.polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal
:05:42. > :05:44.Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went
:05:45. > :05:47.to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.
:05:48. > :05:49.Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have
:05:50. > :05:54.recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have
:05:55. > :05:57.not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the
:05:58. > :06:00.one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John
:06:01. > :06:04.Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib
:06:05. > :06:08.Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the
:06:09. > :06:15.outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of
:06:16. > :06:23.character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit
:06:24. > :06:31.bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.
:06:32. > :06:34.Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks
:06:35. > :06:44.Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between
:06:45. > :06:47.David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they
:06:48. > :06:50.had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find
:06:51. > :07:00.it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.
:07:01. > :07:05.Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,
:07:06. > :07:08.let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck
:07:09. > :07:15.between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly
:07:16. > :07:19.sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are
:07:20. > :07:23.victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I
:07:24. > :07:29.think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a
:07:30. > :07:33.lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so
:07:34. > :07:42.publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?
:07:43. > :07:46.It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state
:07:47. > :07:53.of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not
:07:54. > :07:59.quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,
:08:00. > :08:03.so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on
:08:04. > :08:07.their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done
:08:08. > :08:09.anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible
:08:10. > :08:14.for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they
:08:15. > :08:22.have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed
:08:23. > :08:25.that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is
:08:26. > :08:40.interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk
:08:41. > :08:44.about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?
:08:45. > :08:47.Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like
:08:48. > :08:50.him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he
:08:51. > :08:58.says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very
:08:59. > :09:04.charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few
:09:05. > :09:08.times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.
:09:09. > :09:11.That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the
:09:12. > :09:14.party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a
:09:15. > :09:21.blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and
:09:22. > :09:36.Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have
:09:37. > :09:39.been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence
:09:40. > :09:42.and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned
:09:43. > :09:46.and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib
:09:47. > :09:49.Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned
:09:50. > :09:54.out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have
:09:55. > :10:00.for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your
:10:01. > :10:08.word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.
:10:09. > :10:15.DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for
:10:16. > :10:19.failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group
:10:20. > :10:25.represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be
:10:26. > :10:30.at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and
:10:31. > :10:33.then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,
:10:34. > :10:40.the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their
:10:41. > :10:43.own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are
:10:44. > :10:47.in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the
:10:48. > :10:51.Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of
:10:52. > :11:00.anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.
:11:01. > :11:04.And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary
:11:05. > :11:08.to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the
:11:09. > :11:12.things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any
:11:13. > :11:18.credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are
:11:19. > :11:22.getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first
:11:23. > :11:26.thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was
:11:27. > :11:32.not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right
:11:33. > :11:36.beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to
:11:37. > :11:40.deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour
:11:41. > :11:45.left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one
:11:46. > :11:52.focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very
:11:53. > :11:57.hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering
:11:58. > :12:00.without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the
:12:01. > :12:05.largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal
:12:06. > :12:08.Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to
:12:09. > :12:15.is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise
:12:16. > :12:22.that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your
:12:23. > :12:26.measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income
:12:27. > :12:31.tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The
:12:32. > :12:35.role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are
:12:36. > :12:40.the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a
:12:41. > :12:44.strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We
:12:45. > :12:53.saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour
:12:54. > :12:57.Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income
:12:58. > :13:02.tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do
:13:03. > :13:06.not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots
:13:07. > :13:10.of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,
:13:11. > :13:16.people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged
:13:17. > :13:20.children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard
:13:21. > :13:24.between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we
:13:25. > :13:29.secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery
:13:30. > :13:33.is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We
:13:34. > :13:37.need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people
:13:38. > :13:46.who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their
:13:47. > :13:49.savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem
:13:50. > :13:53.policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the
:13:54. > :13:59.need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big
:14:00. > :14:02.hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We
:14:03. > :14:10.have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay
:14:11. > :14:12.commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this
:14:13. > :14:18.announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other
:14:19. > :14:22.things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we
:14:23. > :14:27.have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get
:14:28. > :14:31.Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is
:14:32. > :14:35.something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay
:14:36. > :14:40.commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this
:14:41. > :14:44.stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?
:14:45. > :14:50.I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We
:14:51. > :14:55.have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic
:14:56. > :14:58.impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has
:14:59. > :15:06.credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not
:15:07. > :15:10.be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince
:15:11. > :15:19.Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,
:15:20. > :15:23.he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t
:15:24. > :15:29.clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to
:15:30. > :15:38.me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was
:15:39. > :15:42.blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay
:15:43. > :15:49.commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the
:15:50. > :15:55.financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also
:15:56. > :16:01.right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the
:16:02. > :16:05.commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have
:16:06. > :16:13.to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are
:16:14. > :16:15.the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed
:16:16. > :16:20.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and
:16:21. > :16:26.that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in
:16:27. > :16:30.Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear
:16:31. > :16:39.about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,
:16:40. > :16:44.the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:45. > :16:51.in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The
:16:52. > :17:00.big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.
:17:01. > :17:05.That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of
:17:06. > :17:09.working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our
:17:10. > :17:15.economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make
:17:16. > :17:20.sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum
:17:21. > :17:26.wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit
:17:27. > :17:30.is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the
:17:31. > :17:35.confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1
:17:36. > :17:42.months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look
:17:43. > :17:48.largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus
:17:49. > :17:53.group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I
:17:54. > :18:03.have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we
:18:04. > :18:08.are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,
:18:09. > :18:14.it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.
:18:15. > :18:20.Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than
:18:21. > :18:23.benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to
:18:24. > :18:28.have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right
:18:29. > :18:32.thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib
:18:33. > :18:38.Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the
:18:39. > :18:43.way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests
:18:44. > :18:49.of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,
:18:50. > :18:55.stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in
:18:56. > :19:03.meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5
:19:04. > :19:07.election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a
:19:08. > :19:11.very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the
:19:12. > :19:14.economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the
:19:15. > :19:21.problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the
:19:22. > :19:25.biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is
:19:26. > :19:30.either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative
:19:31. > :19:34.government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want
:19:35. > :19:38.us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a
:19:39. > :19:43.disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week
:19:44. > :19:48.that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury
:19:49. > :19:53.that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a
:19:54. > :19:57.negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take
:19:58. > :20:02.anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the
:20:03. > :20:06.markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few
:20:07. > :20:13.questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still
:20:14. > :20:17.borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people
:20:18. > :20:30.were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious
:20:31. > :20:34.concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond
:20:35. > :20:41.market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.
:20:42. > :20:45.That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather
:20:46. > :20:51.than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a
:20:52. > :20:55.bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to
:20:56. > :20:59.allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in
:21:00. > :21:02.the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because
:21:03. > :21:08.Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it
:21:09. > :21:11.was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus
:21:12. > :21:17.group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this
:21:18. > :21:22.aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the
:21:23. > :21:28.bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at
:21:29. > :21:35.RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached
:21:36. > :21:43.by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach
:21:44. > :21:51.from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in
:21:52. > :21:55.government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm
:21:56. > :22:04.asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to
:22:05. > :22:08.sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has
:22:09. > :22:14.38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what
:22:15. > :22:20.possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right
:22:21. > :22:29.to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is
:22:30. > :22:33.mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they
:22:34. > :22:37.might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be
:22:38. > :22:42.sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you
:22:43. > :22:48.said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the
:22:49. > :22:54.taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic
:22:55. > :22:59.retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him
:23:00. > :23:05.of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We
:23:06. > :23:15.have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued
:23:16. > :23:19.on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear
:23:20. > :23:23.that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard
:23:24. > :23:28.that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm
:23:29. > :23:34.caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for
:23:35. > :23:42.Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to
:23:43. > :23:48.apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't
:23:49. > :23:51.think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House
:23:52. > :23:58.of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the
:23:59. > :24:01.apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a
:24:02. > :24:07.matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that
:24:08. > :24:12.judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about
:24:13. > :24:15.the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need
:24:16. > :24:21.to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because
:24:22. > :24:28.these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken
:24:29. > :24:34.a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology
:24:35. > :24:38.does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of
:24:39. > :24:42.the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken
:24:43. > :24:50.hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has
:24:51. > :24:56.not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.
:24:57. > :25:03.Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.
:25:04. > :25:10.Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am
:25:11. > :25:14.making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and
:25:15. > :25:21.therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view
:25:22. > :25:28.and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the
:25:29. > :25:33.House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group
:25:34. > :25:40.in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they
:25:41. > :25:47.can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...
:25:48. > :25:59.Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to
:26:00. > :26:03.decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple
:26:04. > :26:09.human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is
:26:10. > :26:26.totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --
:26:27. > :26:32.divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total
:26:33. > :26:37.nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we
:26:38. > :26:42.have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment
:26:43. > :26:47.on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid
:26:48. > :26:50.down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which
:26:51. > :26:54.asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty
:26:55. > :27:02.of confidentiality and responsibility under the data
:27:03. > :27:15.protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in
:27:16. > :27:19.a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why
:27:20. > :27:25.should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven
:27:26. > :27:30.allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not
:27:31. > :27:33.been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to
:27:34. > :27:38.continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the
:27:39. > :27:44.recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.
:27:45. > :27:50.Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris
:27:51. > :27:57.Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He
:27:58. > :28:01.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:02. > :28:07.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:08. > :28:15.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:16. > :28:18.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:19. > :28:24.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:25. > :28:28.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:29. > :28:41.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:42. > :28:47.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:48. > :28:51.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the
:28:52. > :28:56.time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most
:28:57. > :29:01.important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made
:29:02. > :29:12.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:13. > :29:19.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:20. > :29:24.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:25. > :29:41.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:42. > :29:45.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:46. > :29:48.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:49. > :29:51.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:52. > :29:53.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:54. > :29:56.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:57. > :29:58.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:29:59. > :30:00.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:01. > :30:06.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:07. > :30:10.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:11. > :30:16.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:17. > :30:20.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:21. > :30:27.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:28. > :30:37.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:38. > :30:39.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:40. > :30:44.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:45. > :30:52.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:53. > :30:55.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:56. > :30:58.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:59. > :31:08.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:09. > :31:13.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:14. > :31:17.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:18. > :31:22.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:23. > :31:26.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:27. > :31:31.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:32. > :31:36.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:37. > :31:40.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:41. > :31:48.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:49. > :31:54.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:55. > :31:57.can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information
:31:58. > :32:01.will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real
:32:02. > :32:05.commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the
:32:06. > :32:09.system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is
:32:10. > :32:14.oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not
:32:15. > :32:18.mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee
:32:19. > :32:24.said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by
:32:25. > :32:31.Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.
:32:32. > :32:41.The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to
:32:42. > :32:47.approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president
:32:48. > :32:52.does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an
:32:53. > :32:56.establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the
:32:57. > :33:02.committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In
:33:03. > :33:06.this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her
:33:07. > :33:11.European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the
:33:12. > :33:15.interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.
:33:16. > :33:20.But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are
:33:21. > :33:25.having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency
:33:26. > :33:29.should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more
:33:30. > :33:34.safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you
:33:35. > :33:39.cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the
:33:40. > :33:44.patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism, it
:33:45. > :33:49.is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this
:33:50. > :33:52.country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country
:33:53. > :33:58.harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and
:33:59. > :34:05.said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability
:34:06. > :34:11.that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted
:34:12. > :34:17.that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in
:34:18. > :34:21.the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary
:34:22. > :34:24.Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this
:34:25. > :34:31.country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people
:34:32. > :34:37.have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,
:34:38. > :34:42.or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign
:34:43. > :34:46.warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of
:34:47. > :34:52.issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee
:34:53. > :34:56.get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our
:34:57. > :35:01.country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The
:35:02. > :35:07.agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be
:35:08. > :35:16.subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about
:35:17. > :35:20.Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the
:35:21. > :35:27.capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we
:35:28. > :35:32.would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the
:35:33. > :35:37.capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?
:35:38. > :35:42.I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,
:35:43. > :35:46.and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline
:35:47. > :35:51.telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that
:35:52. > :35:58.the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.
:35:59. > :36:01.What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a
:36:02. > :36:06.company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be
:36:07. > :36:13.illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that
:36:14. > :36:17.this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not
:36:18. > :36:22.trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ
:36:23. > :36:26.are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by
:36:27. > :36:33.hacking or foreign intelligence. We need judicial oversight with judges
:36:34. > :36:38.and not politicians signing off. The final 30 seconds to you. As a result
:36:39. > :36:42.of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is
:36:43. > :36:46.accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes
:36:47. > :36:52.are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or
:36:53. > :36:56.not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the
:36:57. > :37:00.people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to
:37:01. > :37:03.11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:04. > :37:05.minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that
:37:06. > :37:31.dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Welcome to Sunday Politics South, my
:37:32. > :37:34.name is Peter Henley. On today's show: It worked after the
:37:35. > :37:36.Second World War, could it work today?
:37:37. > :37:40.Is the solution to the housing crisis not building 100 homes here
:37:41. > :37:43.and there, but building whole new towns?
:37:44. > :37:47.More on that shortly. First, let's meet the two politicians who will be
:37:48. > :37:49.here for the next 20 minutes. Keith House, the Liberal Democrat leader
:37:50. > :37:52.of Eastleigh Borough Council, and Royston Smith, former leader of
:37:53. > :37:55.Southampton City Council and the Conservative candidate for
:37:56. > :37:58.Southampton Itchen. This week, the Prime Minister, in
:37:59. > :38:03.front of the Liaison Committee, was singing the benefits of shale gas
:38:04. > :38:09.extraction, fracking. You tried to get it banned on council land. Why?
:38:10. > :38:12.Yes, we did. We took the view that if we are really serious about
:38:13. > :38:15.moving to a non`carbon economy and promoting renewables, we had to
:38:16. > :38:19.forsake shale gas. That is not saying shale gas is any worse than
:38:20. > :38:23.oil and gas drilled from under the sea. But it is about priorities, and
:38:24. > :38:26.we want renewables to be given a much higher priority. What do you
:38:27. > :38:29.think? Is the Prime Minister right on this? He says that opponents of
:38:30. > :38:33.shale gas are irrational, religiously opposed to it. I guess
:38:34. > :38:35.that includes you. Well, I don't know about whether people are
:38:36. > :38:39.irrational or religiously opposed, but if we look back where we were
:38:40. > :38:43.five years ago with renewables, and we look forward about where we might
:38:44. > :38:47.like to be in five years' time, what we do know is we will not get rid of
:38:48. > :38:51.dependence on fossilised fuels. So, fracking and shale gas, if it is
:38:52. > :38:54.going to bring the cost of energy down and give local authorities
:38:55. > :38:58.extra money, if it gives people the right through the planning process
:38:59. > :39:02.to say they want it or they do not, I have no problem with it. It is a
:39:03. > :39:06.choice we will all have to make. There is no evidence that it is
:39:07. > :39:10.going to bring the cost of energy down. The reality is it is more
:39:11. > :39:13.likely to be that it pushes back the time when we actually take
:39:14. > :39:17.renewables seriously. Royston? It is going to create 74,000 jobs, and the
:39:18. > :39:21.economy is crying out for more jobs, so I think, you know, from that
:39:22. > :39:24.point of view alone, we need to be able to use everything at our
:39:25. > :39:28.disposal, and shale gas is part of that. You could have those with
:39:29. > :39:30.renewables, too. A discussion to be had, certainly.
:39:31. > :39:33.The Government announced this week that Michael Fallon is to be the new
:39:34. > :39:36.Minister for Portsmouth, the first time a city has had its own minister
:39:37. > :39:40.since Michael Heseltine pronounced himself the Minister for Merseyside
:39:41. > :39:43.back in the early '80s. Mr Fallon is also a minister shared between two
:39:44. > :39:47.other departments. I spoke to him earlier and started by asking him
:39:48. > :39:49.how long he expected to be in the job.
:39:50. > :39:53.Well, I have been appointed to do it, there is no time limit. This is
:39:54. > :39:56.not a temporary thing. There is a job of work to be done in ensuring
:39:57. > :40:00.Portsmouth comes through the challenge of the shipyard closure
:40:01. > :40:03.and that we are able to build and more broadly balance the civil
:40:04. > :40:07.marine and maritime sector. That is not going to happen overnight, but
:40:08. > :40:10.I'm determined to play my part to help. So, in terms of your success,
:40:11. > :40:14.how should we judge what you do? What will be a good indication?
:40:15. > :40:17.Well, I would hope the development of a more broadly based local
:40:18. > :40:20.economy that builds on the strengths of maritime and marine and the
:40:21. > :40:22.skills that are there in the shipyard but leads to more
:40:23. > :40:33.private`sector job creation, particularly amongst small and
:40:34. > :40:37.medium`sized enterprises. One of the groups bidding to get into the yard
:40:38. > :40:39.says that they could build the new offshore patrol group vessel cheaper
:40:40. > :40:43.in Portsmouth than Glasgow. Would that offer be considered? Well,
:40:44. > :40:46.there have been a number of proposals put to my department over
:40:47. > :40:50.the last few months which have come to us, and we have looked to see
:40:51. > :40:55.whether they are commercially credible or not. We are very
:40:56. > :41:01.restricted as a Government as to how we can assist shipbuilding. There
:41:02. > :41:07.are very strict European Union rules about that. Obviously, we look at
:41:08. > :41:10.every single one... This is an MOD decision. A new offshore patrol
:41:11. > :41:14.vessel, the one that is currently up in Glasgow, if it could be built
:41:15. > :41:17.cheaper by a company other than BAE in Portsmouth, that is fair
:41:18. > :41:21.competition, isn't it? Well, it could well be. As I have said, we
:41:22. > :41:25.have had a number of expressions of interest in reutilising the yard. Of
:41:26. > :41:28.course, we will continue to look at that. We also... So it will be used
:41:29. > :41:32.for Navy warship building, still? Well, you know, that does not look
:41:33. > :41:37.at the moment likely because BAE have taken their decision. But as I
:41:38. > :41:40.said, we will look at any of these particular expressions of interest,
:41:41. > :41:44.but we also have to focus on the bigger picture of how we develop a
:41:45. > :41:47.wider civil as well as naval maritime and marine sector that can
:41:48. > :41:54.support lots of smaller and medium`sized businesses rather than
:41:55. > :41:58.simply the yard itself. OK, so along with Vince Cable and Philip Hammond,
:41:59. > :42:01.and the local MPs, you have been fully across the developments at
:42:02. > :42:05.Portsmouth. Why weren't you made the minister back in October? Well, we
:42:06. > :42:09.have been tracking the situation with BAE in Portsmouth for many
:42:10. > :42:12.months now. My officials and other ministers, including Vince Cable,
:42:13. > :42:17.have been very much aware of the situation in Portsmouth. We have
:42:18. > :42:21.visited, I was there last year... So why didn't you take up the job back
:42:22. > :42:25.in October rather than waiting until now? Well, I was only offered the
:42:26. > :42:28.job on Thursday night, so it is a matter for the Prime Minister to
:42:29. > :42:33.decide how these things are done. But let's be clear... So is this an
:42:34. > :42:37.admission of failure, that the two MPs haven't been doing enough up
:42:38. > :42:41.until now? No, certainly not. It is an awareness that now is the time,
:42:42. > :42:44.given the city deal has been signed, given a series of Government funding
:42:45. > :42:47.streams have been made available to Portsmouth, not least through the
:42:48. > :42:51.Regional Growth Fund that I have been involved in, now is the time as
:42:52. > :42:54.the closure approaches for us to seize the challenge and make sure
:42:55. > :42:56.this is properly coordinated, that Portsmouth has a champion across
:42:57. > :42:59.Whitehall and the other Government departments, and that everybody
:43:00. > :43:03.works together to make sure we make the most of this opportunity after
:43:04. > :43:14.what has been quite a difficult time. OK, we wish you luck. Minister
:43:15. > :43:18.for Portsmouth, will there be ministers for other places or is
:43:19. > :43:22.this a one`off, do you think? I think there is a unique challenge
:43:23. > :43:25.here for Portsmouth. It has a long, proud history. Great strengths and
:43:26. > :43:29.great skills. We need to go through that know and through the other side
:43:30. > :43:32.and make sure we have a more broadly based local economy. I do not think
:43:33. > :43:35.that necessarily means you'll have a minister for every other city. This
:43:36. > :43:39.is a recognition that Portsmouth faces a unique challenge and there
:43:40. > :43:42.is a job to be done to coordinate everybody's efforts to make sure we
:43:43. > :43:50.come through it. OK, Michael Fallon, thank you very much. Thank you.
:43:51. > :43:56.We could have a minister for Eastleigh, I suppose. The Minister
:43:57. > :44:02.for Southampton. To use Vince Cable phrase, could this suck the life out
:44:03. > :44:05.of the area? No, he gave a good explanation of the circumstances in
:44:06. > :44:09.Portsmouth. It is good Vince Cable has freed up a minister to give
:44:10. > :44:15.extra help to a city with specific issues. Vince Cable is behind this.
:44:16. > :44:20.He said, I am in the Minister for Portsmouth, we do not need specific
:44:21. > :44:29.ministers is commission might `` ministers! Now, there is specific
:44:30. > :44:37.issues here, and if that means extra people can tackle this, that is good
:44:38. > :44:41.for Portsmouth as a whole. This is an admission that this is not just a
:44:42. > :44:44.commercial issue. But this is the Government closely involved with
:44:45. > :44:51.commissioning of warships and they have responsibility in it. Well, I
:44:52. > :44:55.think so. Obviously so. This is not a political decision about what has
:44:56. > :44:58.happened shipbuilding in Portsmouth. That is a commercial decision taken
:44:59. > :45:03.commercially as you would expect. To take extra resources politically
:45:04. > :45:06.into an area will be have had this issue with shipbuilding and to make
:45:07. > :45:09.sure we do something quickly to bring it back and protect jobs in
:45:10. > :45:15.Portsmouth, that is not a bad thing. That is a positive thing. Is there a
:45:16. > :45:18.chance here that it might work out very well and it will be seen that
:45:19. > :45:21.the Minister for Portsmouth has brought all this about? He has been
:45:22. > :45:25.given the opposite of a poisoned chalice, whatever that is. This
:45:26. > :45:30.Government stands for localism. We do more things from the top ten,
:45:31. > :45:35.that is a good thing and very much welcome. I had UKIP saying this is a
:45:36. > :45:42.political scam, spin, covering it all up. It is almost a no`win
:45:43. > :45:46.situation. If the governments did not do anything, everyone would be
:45:47. > :45:51.banging the drum saying whether as a Government when mini demos? Now they
:45:52. > :45:53.have put in a minister to oversee this and we should see it as a
:45:54. > :45:57.positive. It's that time of year again when
:45:58. > :46:00.councils are setting their budgets. Oxfordshire County Council says it
:46:01. > :46:04.has to save ?93 million over the next four years and last year held a
:46:05. > :46:06.series of public consultations to hear where people thought those
:46:07. > :46:13.savings should and shouldn't be made. So what has been the end
:46:14. > :46:19.result? Our Oxfordshire political reporter Helen Catt has been finding
:46:20. > :46:22.out. An estimated 800,000 trees grow
:46:23. > :46:27.along the public highways here in Oxfordshire. The County Council is
:46:28. > :46:30.responsible for many of them and has to keep them safe but not
:46:31. > :46:36.necessarily looking pretty. That is an expense it thinks it could easily
:46:37. > :46:41.print. One of the proposals is not cutting back the vegetation so much.
:46:42. > :46:44.We have to make sure we have the safety displays and signs clearly
:46:45. > :46:49.visible, but do we need to cut the grass is often? It might mean it is
:46:50. > :46:52.a bit untidy, but if we then say we can carry on doing other services, I
:46:53. > :46:58.think people will understand. You might think some of the things the
:46:59. > :47:01.council does not have to do unsurprising. It is not have to
:47:02. > :47:05.provide street lighting. It has to give us a way of cycling day`to`day
:47:06. > :47:11.rubbish, but not any litter through DIY. For other services, like
:47:12. > :47:18.libraries, it has to provide a service, but what level of service
:47:19. > :47:21.that is is up to the council. But around ?2.5 million is set to be cut
:47:22. > :47:25.from non`statutory services a bit closer to home, like welfare
:47:26. > :47:31.advice, homeless hostels and subsidies for Meals on Wheels. When
:47:32. > :47:34.it comes to Meals on Wheels, are they are the different ways now?
:47:35. > :47:38.When we provided the services earlier, there was not home
:47:39. > :47:41.delivery. Can home deliveries be better utilised to provide services?
:47:42. > :47:45.It is not a question of simply saying we are stopping this and will
:47:46. > :47:48.not do it, we will be working with people to actually see if we can
:47:49. > :47:54.provide services in a different way and at a better cost value. In
:47:55. > :47:58.October, an idea to close 37 children's centres to save ?5
:47:59. > :48:04.million was leaked, causing uproar. It is not made it into budget plans.
:48:05. > :48:07.One of the big issues that came out early on when the budget was
:48:08. > :48:12.formalised was about children's centres. A lot of work around that
:48:13. > :48:15.showed that actually, we do not need to provide it as a statutory
:48:16. > :48:20.service. We looked at it and investigated and we see we have to
:48:21. > :48:24.make challenging savings, about ?3 million overall, but we are still
:48:25. > :48:28.providing services above what we need to provide. When the proposals
:48:29. > :48:34.were announced, you sort of undertook to save that no
:48:35. > :48:37.children's centres would close. Is that a principle you're going to
:48:38. > :48:43.base this review on? I knew going into it thinking, we will not shut a
:48:44. > :48:46.single children's centre? I was very clear in saying that it did not
:48:47. > :48:50.envisage any children's centres closing. When you work through the
:48:51. > :48:55.review, we will have to see what comes out at the end. I do not
:48:56. > :48:58.envisage any closures, but we have to understand all, see where we can
:48:59. > :49:04.save money and provide good services for residents. Subsidised transport
:49:05. > :49:08.is being reviewed to save another ?3 million and grants to village halls
:49:09. > :49:12.and two arts centres are being stopped. But will it be enough to
:49:13. > :49:17.cope with pressures from bad weather, elderly people and ever
:49:18. > :49:20.decreasing money to Government? How can you be sure you will not balance
:49:21. > :49:25.the budget this year and come June, you're going to get another
:49:26. > :49:29.bombshell? We give you the budget every year and have to work within
:49:30. > :49:34.the parameters that come forward. For instance, George Osborne has
:49:35. > :49:38.just announced it will be an additional ?25 billion of savings in
:49:39. > :49:43.the next Parliament. That will impact on local Government. We have
:49:44. > :49:47.to work smarter and leaner. Whatever is thrown at us, we have got to rise
:49:48. > :49:50.to the challenge. There might very well be another statement in June.
:49:51. > :49:53.If there is, it will be disappointing but we will have to
:49:54. > :49:58.work to those figures. There are concerns amongst some that if those
:49:59. > :50:04.figures keep going down, councils might start struggle to deliver even
:50:05. > :50:06.the statutory duties. At those public meetings in
:50:07. > :50:11.Oxfordshire, a lot of people said, let's increase council tax by more
:50:12. > :50:19.than the limit. Let's put it up by 4%, 10%, let's keep up services. Why
:50:20. > :50:21.not fight to keep the services? Groups of people who feel
:50:22. > :50:27.disproportionately affected will see that. I understand that. Councils,
:50:28. > :50:29.all they need to do, if they want to protect services by putting council
:50:30. > :50:34.to some and not look for savings and efficiencies, is to propose a higher
:50:35. > :50:38.council tax and put it to the public. It is happening in Brighton.
:50:39. > :50:44.Only one council the country is doing it. Precisely. We will see how
:50:45. > :50:48.that works out. If they want to do that, they can. No`one has chosen to
:50:49. > :50:57.do that yet apart from the Greens in Brighton. Surely that should be a
:50:58. > :51:00.push back against this cut. 43% cut. Local Government has had higher
:51:01. > :51:02.levels of cuts and other parts of the public sector, mainly to protect
:51:03. > :51:08.health and education, which have been seen as national priorities.
:51:09. > :51:10.The answer is not referendums on higher council tags, the answer is
:51:11. > :51:15.for local Government always look for more deficiencies, new ways of doing
:51:16. > :51:19.things. In Eastleigh, this year will be the 11th year of real cut in
:51:20. > :51:25.counsel to. We have not cut services however. As long as I have known
:51:26. > :51:28.you, you have been saying we are the most efficient, the best in the
:51:29. > :51:33.area. How long can you carry on doing that? I would not put it like
:51:34. > :51:37.that. We have managed to keep council tax down in real terms for
:51:38. > :51:42.11 years. We will be doing that into the future and continue to find new
:51:43. > :51:47.and different ways of doing things. Being more commercial, occupying
:51:48. > :51:49.small offices, using volunteers for discretionary activities, and doing
:51:50. > :51:56.what the public wants, not necessarily what statutory duty is.
:51:57. > :52:01.That is summed up by the idea of the trees. You can have it safe under
:52:02. > :52:03.the statute, but not pretty. I read except in a second`class service in
:52:04. > :52:09.order to meet the things which have to be done? We should not need to
:52:10. > :52:14.have a second`class service. We should be more innovative and share
:52:15. > :52:18.more with other local authorities. Eastleigh and Southampton have been
:52:19. > :52:20.doing that for some time. Southampton and feed doing that
:52:21. > :52:25.legal services. There are ways of doing things more efficiently while
:52:26. > :52:32.providing a service to the public. It is about the public. They are
:52:33. > :52:38.employers. We will stand before them and ask them for our jobs again in
:52:39. > :52:41.May. We need to protect them. Sharing services with other
:52:42. > :52:44.authorities could mean and does mean and has meant in the past that
:52:45. > :52:52.council tax levels have been kept warm. OK. `` kept lower.
:52:53. > :52:56.According to the charity Shelter, we need to be building a quarter of a
:52:57. > :53:00.million new homes every year for the foreseeable future. But where to put
:53:01. > :53:02.them in a region where the existing infrastructure in our towns and
:53:03. > :53:06.cities is already creaking? Maybe building a whole new town is the
:53:07. > :53:09.answer. And as our Berkshire political reporter Patrick O'Hagan
:53:10. > :53:15.reports, it's an answer we found a while back.
:53:16. > :53:19.My, this is a grand way to start the day. New terms are not that new and
:53:20. > :53:23.idea. They sprang up after the war and were sold by the Government as a
:53:24. > :53:26.better way of life out in the countryside, away from all the crime
:53:27. > :53:32.and overcrowding of big cities like London. There are now 22 of them
:53:33. > :53:36.around the country, including places like Basingstoke and Bracknell. To
:53:37. > :53:41.begin with, the Prime Minister sounded like he was all in favour of
:53:42. > :53:47.building more. It seems to me that our post`war predecessors had the
:53:48. > :53:52.right idea. Embodied in the visionary plan from Patrick
:53:53. > :53:54.Abercrombie in 1944. His plan and append the Southeast economic
:53:55. > :53:58.success by proposing well`planned and well located new terms which
:53:59. > :54:03.would in time become new engines of economic growth. But his enthusiasm
:54:04. > :54:08.seems to have waned over the last 18 months and now it is the Deputy
:54:09. > :54:10.Prime Minister Nick Clegg who is suggesting new towns or garden
:54:11. > :54:14.cities in Buckinghamshire or Oxfordshire.
:54:15. > :54:18.Joining me now is Tony Virgo, who is a councillor on Bracknell Forest
:54:19. > :54:24.Council. He things it is not a bad idea, the new town. Why? I do. I
:54:25. > :54:30.have been on a planning committee for a long time and I think many
:54:31. > :54:36.off. We need to increase it. I know from experience the pressure on some
:54:37. > :54:39.communities on some of the extra development we have to put in. It is
:54:40. > :54:45.enormous in terms of roads and infrastructure and skills. I think
:54:46. > :54:49.as well as doing that and releasing that pressure, we could have a look
:54:50. > :54:58.at two new settlements or maybe three small settlements. So in
:54:59. > :55:03.Berkshire, whereabouts? I think we should be very open`minded about
:55:04. > :55:08.this. The most important thing is infrastructure. We have to look at
:55:09. > :55:13.transport and the next generation and will the jobs are. The ball
:55:14. > :55:22.travel to the. That infrastructure is... Not too far away from the M4?
:55:23. > :55:25.That is really busy and it will be full unless we build extra lanes.
:55:26. > :55:36.There are other suggestions and drips. `` and drips. I have to look
:55:37. > :55:45.for the field, like Worcestershire. We need a consensus to make this...
:55:46. > :55:50.We must bring the Mac `` we must not look at this as a negativity. There
:55:51. > :55:54.is a positive spin in some places in terms of design. But even some
:55:55. > :55:58.locals are not happy and never have been. You will eat always get people
:55:59. > :56:05.saying, why here? Someone has to be overruled. Of course. Someone has to
:56:06. > :56:11.make a decision. We are a country that is fearful change something.
:56:12. > :56:18.Sometimes we do that change, the accepted. That has to be done in a
:56:19. > :56:23.managed way. It is important to state that if we did do new towns,
:56:24. > :56:26.we are talking about sustainable drainage and energy, something we
:56:27. > :56:29.should be proud of in this country and not having to join it with
:56:30. > :56:34.existing stuff which basically needs renewing as well. Thanks joining us.
:56:35. > :56:36.Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60
:56:37. > :56:46.seconds. The traditional image of a military
:56:47. > :56:48.wife puts off potential employers, according to a Wiltshire support
:56:49. > :56:55.group who are highlighting the strengths of military partners.
:56:56. > :56:59.Hospital A doctors, however, are in such demand that the wage bill
:57:00. > :57:02.has leapt. Temporary extra staff in Portsmouth costing half a million
:57:03. > :57:07.pounds, ten times that of previous years.
:57:08. > :57:10.Floods and storms have brought big repair bills for county councils. In
:57:11. > :57:16.Dorset, more than 1000 pothles have been reported since January the 1st.
:57:17. > :57:20.Residents of this town in Sussex are worried they will be swamped with
:57:21. > :57:23.new houses because they are one of the few places in the county that
:57:24. > :57:26.has not flooded this year. A new housing project was the
:57:27. > :57:29.destination for Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles in
:57:30. > :57:34.Portsmouth. And he backed local MP Penny Mordaunt taking part in the TV
:57:35. > :57:39.programme Splash! She is a woman of considerable talent and I don't know
:57:40. > :57:43.about you... Besides, I would obviously make a very big splash
:57:44. > :57:45.myself! I do not think I would have the courage to jump off one of those
:57:46. > :57:59.boards. Good idea, but I here? I do not
:58:00. > :58:03.know. I had to abseil down a building once, and Elisa kit all my
:58:04. > :58:11.clothes on. That is as much as I would do. Did you get sponsored to
:58:12. > :58:16.keep your clothes on? I do not think I have been sponsored to take my
:58:17. > :58:24.clothes 40 Vermont. `` or keep my clothes on. She's giving a fee to
:58:25. > :58:28.charity. It is in her spare time, as I understand, so good on her effort
:58:29. > :58:32.is for charity. It would be interesting for Eric Pickles to do
:58:33. > :58:36.the same thing. In her spare time, but you're the candidate next
:58:37. > :58:38.summer. An MP is closely scrutinised. You cannot say you want
:58:39. > :58:43.to do this in your spare time. It will will say you should do your
:58:44. > :58:47.job. They will, but it is a good cause. Everyone knows we do have
:58:48. > :58:51.spare time, however little that is. But if it is in her spare time, it
:58:52. > :58:56.is a good cause, she's not doing any harm. Good luck to her. What is the
:58:57. > :59:01.most ridiculous thing you might do in such a situation? You would not
:59:02. > :59:08.get me in the jungle. Heating and set. Sorry, not up for that. People
:59:09. > :59:12.pay for MPs to be at Westminster. You're expected to do your job and
:59:13. > :59:17.for all the expenses and the rest of it. She must have put in time
:59:18. > :59:21.training. MPs get a really hard time. For those of us are not MPs
:59:22. > :59:24.and close to the system, across the political spectrum, they put in
:59:25. > :59:28.ridiculous numbers of hours. Getting any spare time at all isn't
:59:29. > :59:35.triumph. If Penny is doing this, I will not knock for that. She says it
:59:36. > :59:43.is from our Navy training as well, and learning to dive would be
:59:44. > :59:49.useful. What could you do , the abseil we have mentioned? Would you
:59:50. > :59:52.be up for that? I have done sponsored walks and clients and
:59:53. > :59:56.things for charities in the past, but that was when I was not as busy.
:59:57. > :00:04.Climbing a mountain takes a week or so. You can do that as an MP. Both
:00:05. > :00:08.of you, thank you very much. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:00:09. > :00:19.South, thanks to my guests Keith House and Royston Smith. As we
:00:20. > :00:23.said, the candidate for Southampton Itchen. You can keep up`to`date
:00:24. > :00:33.houses being built by the mayor. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.
:00:34. > :00:38.Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of
:00:39. > :00:43.the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first
:00:44. > :00:44.appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in
:00:45. > :01:15.action. APPLAUSE
:01:16. > :01:19.Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving
:01:20. > :01:24.for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into
:01:25. > :01:35.the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now
:01:36. > :01:38.the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what
:01:39. > :01:41.about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed
:01:42. > :01:47.Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the
:01:48. > :01:52.programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering
:01:53. > :01:56.her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the
:01:57. > :02:03.local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,
:02:04. > :02:06.can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next
:02:07. > :02:12.series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there
:02:13. > :02:16.is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local
:02:17. > :02:22.MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.
:02:23. > :02:32.They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big
:02:33. > :02:35.opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity
:02:36. > :02:41.television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in
:02:42. > :02:45.her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not
:02:46. > :02:51.think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on
:02:52. > :02:58.Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is
:02:59. > :03:09.not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a
:03:10. > :03:14.local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a
:03:15. > :03:17.minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for
:03:18. > :03:22.Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that
:03:23. > :03:29.Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in
:03:30. > :03:35.shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional
:03:36. > :03:39.growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding
:03:40. > :03:45.streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly
:03:46. > :03:48.coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this
:03:49. > :03:52.opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime
:03:53. > :03:57.economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next
:03:58. > :04:08.election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal
:04:09. > :04:10.Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working
:04:11. > :04:16.together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on
:04:17. > :04:20.these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure
:04:21. > :04:26.that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not
:04:27. > :04:31.the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince
:04:32. > :04:37.Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am
:04:38. > :04:41.making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.
:04:42. > :04:45.I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper
:04:46. > :04:52.opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.
:04:53. > :04:56.How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?
:04:57. > :05:03.Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven
:05:04. > :05:09.years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a
:05:10. > :05:14.pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is
:05:15. > :05:18.interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east
:05:19. > :05:25.they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown
:05:26. > :05:30.as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,
:05:31. > :05:34.and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is
:05:35. > :05:40.more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a
:05:41. > :05:43.marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on
:05:44. > :05:46.the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under
:05:47. > :05:48.a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he
:05:49. > :05:51.had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual
:05:52. > :05:55.competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them
:05:56. > :06:00.will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,
:06:01. > :06:05.setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit
:06:06. > :06:08.consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next
:06:09. > :06:13.election as the party of competition, the party of the
:06:14. > :06:17.consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.
:06:18. > :06:21.They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the
:06:22. > :06:25.next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the
:06:26. > :06:31.party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the
:06:32. > :06:35.party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual
:06:36. > :06:41.competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling
:06:42. > :06:45.banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller
:06:46. > :06:50.ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that
:06:51. > :06:54.this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who
:06:55. > :06:57.think that through interfering with the market, through his price
:06:58. > :07:03.freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this
:07:04. > :07:09.before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise
:07:10. > :07:13.of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is
:07:14. > :07:20.creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets
:07:21. > :07:26.Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work
:07:27. > :07:31.There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.
:07:32. > :07:36.Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in
:07:37. > :07:41.those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were
:07:42. > :07:46.suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In
:07:47. > :07:49.the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.
:07:50. > :07:55.That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our
:07:56. > :08:00.bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into
:08:01. > :08:05.account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers
:08:06. > :08:10.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:11. > :08:16.is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece
:08:17. > :08:20.that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and
:08:21. > :08:24.the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in
:08:25. > :08:32.the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets
:08:33. > :08:38.to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim
:08:39. > :08:45.Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:46. > :08:52.the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.
:08:53. > :08:56.There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In
:08:57. > :09:00.banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour
:09:01. > :09:05.government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy
:09:06. > :09:11.Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a
:09:12. > :09:17.clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to
:09:18. > :09:22.purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European
:09:23. > :09:28.Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to
:09:29. > :09:36.this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I
:09:37. > :09:41.shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that
:09:42. > :09:47.disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,
:09:48. > :09:55.and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness
:09:56. > :09:59.that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,
:10:00. > :10:04.or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.
:10:05. > :10:10.So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking
:10:11. > :10:16.to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too
:10:17. > :10:19.late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is
:10:20. > :10:26.causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last
:10:27. > :10:31.year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that
:10:32. > :10:37.UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the
:10:38. > :10:39.retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best
:10:40. > :10:48.interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage
:10:49. > :10:53.is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who
:10:54. > :10:56.are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the
:10:57. > :11:01.party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his
:11:02. > :11:08.word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel
:11:09. > :11:20.Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of
:11:21. > :11:23.UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,
:11:24. > :11:28.they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper
:11:29. > :11:33.organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The
:11:34. > :11:39.European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy
:11:40. > :11:43.with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things
:11:44. > :11:48.like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against
:11:49. > :11:56.the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like
:11:57. > :12:00.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:01. > :12:06.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:07. > :12:11.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:12. > :12:15.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:16. > :12:21.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the
:12:22. > :12:24.first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a
:12:25. > :12:30.conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David
:12:31. > :12:34.Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I
:12:35. > :12:41.think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the
:12:42. > :12:45.only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice
:12:46. > :12:50.they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,
:12:51. > :12:53.it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this
:12:54. > :13:00.week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing
:13:01. > :13:04.between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats
:13:05. > :13:09.and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,
:13:10. > :13:19.I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the
:13:20. > :13:23.issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord
:13:24. > :13:30.Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.
:13:31. > :13:34.Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday
:13:35. > :13:37.on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,
:13:38. > :13:39.it is the Sunday Politics.