:00:37. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:46. > :00:50.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:51. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:04.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:05. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:19.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans
:01:20. > :01:40.In the South: The council with money in the bank and a large
:01:41. > :01:44.And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced,
:01:45. > :01:47.entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a
:01:48. > :01:50.boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt,
:01:51. > :01:52.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a
:01:53. > :02:09.yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they
:02:10. > :02:13.have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all
:02:14. > :02:17.yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a
:02:18. > :02:21.return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now.
:02:22. > :02:24.He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring
:02:25. > :02:28.in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the
:02:29. > :02:30.'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow
:02:31. > :02:33.Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government
:02:34. > :02:35.which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of
:02:36. > :02:38.England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we
:02:39. > :02:40.are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you,
:02:41. > :02:44.George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult
:02:45. > :02:53.circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people
:02:54. > :02:59.have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do But
:03:00. > :03:03.to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do
:03:04. > :03:08.the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro
:03:09. > :03:12.market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and
:03:13. > :03:18.make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the
:03:19. > :03:25.political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%
:03:26. > :03:28.top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think
:03:29. > :03:32.exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out
:03:33. > :03:37.there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not
:03:38. > :03:43.sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their
:03:44. > :03:50.existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we
:03:51. > :03:54.talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think
:03:55. > :03:57.it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this
:03:58. > :04:01.year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I
:04:02. > :04:05.thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right
:04:06. > :04:10.policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%
:04:11. > :04:17.strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that
:04:18. > :04:23.direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have
:04:24. > :04:29.done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the
:04:30. > :04:34.sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was
:04:35. > :04:42.about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and
:04:43. > :04:48.Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things
:04:49. > :04:56.that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly
:04:57. > :05:00.where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the
:05:01. > :05:04.same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next
:05:05. > :05:09.Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said
:05:10. > :05:14.how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going
:05:15. > :05:19.to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be
:05:20. > :05:24.deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.
:05:25. > :05:28.Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where
:05:29. > :05:31.the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the
:05:32. > :05:36.last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election
:05:37. > :05:39.if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and
:05:40. > :05:44.that's the question looking difficult for them this morning
:05:45. > :05:50.Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the
:05:51. > :05:54.most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy
:05:55. > :05:58.mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a
:05:59. > :06:04.Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious
:06:05. > :06:09.than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the
:06:10. > :06:13.run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in
:06:14. > :06:19.the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a
:06:20. > :06:24.guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of
:06:25. > :06:30.ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business
:06:31. > :06:35.Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see
:06:36. > :06:38.businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:39. > :06:42.that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing
:06:43. > :06:46.this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The
:06:47. > :06:52.other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p
:06:53. > :06:56.is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what
:06:57. > :07:01.politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour
:07:02. > :07:06.regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.
:07:07. > :07:11.It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one
:07:12. > :07:14.of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent
:07:15. > :07:17.memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in
:07:18. > :07:19.Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of
:07:20. > :07:22.inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a
:07:23. > :07:26.Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A
:07:27. > :07:32.challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the
:07:33. > :07:37.Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the
:07:38. > :07:43.Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our
:07:44. > :07:49.behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the
:07:50. > :07:52.apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show
:07:53. > :08:00.leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on
:08:01. > :08:06.Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of
:08:07. > :08:11.a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had
:08:12. > :08:15.inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was
:08:16. > :08:20.cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I said if he doesn't apologise, he
:08:21. > :08:25.should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what
:08:26. > :08:32.do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was
:08:33. > :08:36.starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to
:08:37. > :08:42.apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't
:08:43. > :08:45.done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends
:08:46. > :08:49.better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has
:08:50. > :08:54.been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems
:08:55. > :09:01.to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very
:09:02. > :09:05.differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on
:09:06. > :09:10.qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed
:09:11. > :09:16.to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:17. > :09:19.problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's
:09:20. > :09:27.internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for
:09:28. > :09:31.a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal
:09:32. > :09:36.Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of
:09:37. > :09:41.the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem
:09:42. > :09:48.whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,
:09:49. > :09:51.they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar
:09:52. > :09:55.Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media
:09:56. > :10:00.witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough
:10:01. > :10:04.shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't
:10:05. > :10:09.turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement
:10:10. > :10:13.that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to
:10:14. > :10:16.comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative
:10:17. > :10:21.but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick
:10:22. > :10:25.Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the
:10:26. > :10:28.extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man
:10:29. > :10:32.long credited with building its success. The situation was making
:10:33. > :10:36.the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this
:10:37. > :10:40.morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to
:10:41. > :10:44.create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at
:10:45. > :10:49.ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,
:10:50. > :10:53.when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from
:10:54. > :10:57.the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome
:10:58. > :11:02.sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the
:11:03. > :11:07.Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago
:11:08. > :11:13.and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.
:11:14. > :11:20.Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,
:11:21. > :11:23.for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous
:11:24. > :11:29.week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will
:11:30. > :11:34.vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.
:11:35. > :11:37.The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem
:11:38. > :11:41.voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point
:11:42. > :11:44.in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the
:11:45. > :11:52.post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon
:11:53. > :11:55.Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they
:11:56. > :12:00.might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their
:12:01. > :12:04.pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm
:12:05. > :12:08.Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a
:12:09. > :12:11."family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was
:12:12. > :12:15.booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with
:12:16. > :12:20.Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was
:12:21. > :12:24.off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,
:12:25. > :12:28.told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves
:12:29. > :12:39.in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How
:12:40. > :12:43.refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib
:12:44. > :12:47.Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've
:12:48. > :12:52.been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that
:12:53. > :12:56.their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he
:12:57. > :13:03.signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various
:13:04. > :13:15.sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is
:13:16. > :13:21.Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week
:13:22. > :13:25.he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public
:13:26. > :13:32.domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative
:13:33. > :13:36.Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority
:13:37. > :13:39.Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that
:13:40. > :13:44.reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are
:13:45. > :13:48.self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like
:13:49. > :13:52.this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have
:13:53. > :13:57.got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through
:13:58. > :14:02.mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his
:14:03. > :14:05.entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the
:14:06. > :14:09.Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for
:14:10. > :14:13.mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly
:14:14. > :14:17.invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a
:14:18. > :14:21.action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could
:14:22. > :14:25.resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends
:14:26. > :14:30.these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex
:14:31. > :14:33.secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through
:14:34. > :14:37.to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European
:14:38. > :14:41.elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps
:14:42. > :14:46.it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for
:14:47. > :14:50.Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better
:14:51. > :14:53.than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a
:14:54. > :14:57.good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems
:14:58. > :15:03.have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.
:15:04. > :15:07.Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational
:15:08. > :15:10.structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert
:15:11. > :15:18.himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or
:15:19. > :15:29.Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today
:15:30. > :15:33.programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as
:15:34. > :15:36.Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your
:15:37. > :15:39.pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been
:15:40. > :15:43.racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel
:15:44. > :15:46.by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over
:15:47. > :15:50.the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going
:15:51. > :15:56.up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:15:57. > :16:02.the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with
:16:03. > :16:06.commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the
:16:07. > :16:11.beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't
:16:12. > :16:17.compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average
:16:18. > :16:25.rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just
:16:26. > :16:30.1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the
:16:31. > :16:35.beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers
:16:36. > :16:38.fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the
:16:39. > :16:52.track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview
:16:53. > :16:56.Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why
:16:57. > :17:00.is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of
:17:01. > :17:09.their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while
:17:10. > :17:15.their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out
:17:16. > :17:21.that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above
:17:22. > :17:25.inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do
:17:26. > :17:34.as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase
:17:35. > :17:41.since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been
:17:42. > :17:45.above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the
:17:46. > :17:50.railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the
:17:51. > :17:57.great Western. We are spending 500 million at Birmingham station, this
:17:58. > :18:01.is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the
:18:02. > :18:11.next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the
:18:12. > :18:16.network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary
:18:17. > :18:21.people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,
:18:22. > :18:28.commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a
:18:29. > :18:37.distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked
:18:38. > :18:45.similar distances to international cities.
:18:46. > :18:54.The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing
:18:55. > :18:59.record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be
:19:00. > :19:02.paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know
:19:03. > :19:20.whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,
:19:21. > :19:29.as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian
:19:30. > :19:33.equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our
:19:34. > :19:38.railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying
:19:39. > :19:43.these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot
:19:44. > :19:52.more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not
:19:53. > :19:58.quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you
:19:59. > :20:04.were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you
:20:05. > :20:10.the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case
:20:11. > :20:14.they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise
:20:15. > :20:22.cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin
:20:23. > :20:26.train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen
:20:27. > :20:31.a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.
:20:32. > :20:36.a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger
:20:37. > :20:40.journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:41. > :20:45.revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:46. > :20:45.spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of
:20:46. > :21:03.transport. They are charging huge fares in
:21:04. > :21:08.Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do
:21:09. > :21:12.you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts
:21:13. > :21:18.in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways.
:21:19. > :21:23.What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so
:21:24. > :21:28.German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising
:21:29. > :21:32.the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the
:21:33. > :21:40.subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I
:21:41. > :21:48.want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at
:21:49. > :21:53.the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what
:21:54. > :21:57.has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in
:21:58. > :22:07.ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You
:22:08. > :22:13.still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you,
:22:14. > :22:17.to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it
:22:18. > :22:22.comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy
:22:23. > :22:26.into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going
:22:27. > :22:32.from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you
:22:33. > :22:40.about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI
:22:41. > :22:47.vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all
:22:48. > :22:51.the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main
:22:52. > :22:56.Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling
:22:57. > :22:59.stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a
:23:00. > :23:13.question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.
:23:14. > :23:17.You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we
:23:18. > :23:27.have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are
:23:28. > :23:34.the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?
:23:35. > :23:48.We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are
:23:49. > :23:52.setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them
:23:53. > :23:57.and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for
:23:58. > :24:04.the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t
:24:05. > :24:10.accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is
:24:11. > :24:18.the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus
:24:19. > :24:25.rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,
:24:26. > :24:31.4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has
:24:32. > :24:36.been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses
:24:37. > :24:41.on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with
:24:42. > :24:55.Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in
:24:56. > :25:01.new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working
:25:02. > :25:07.families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work
:25:08. > :25:11.early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their
:25:12. > :25:18.buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if
:25:19. > :25:23.they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in
:25:24. > :25:31.services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more
:25:32. > :25:35.years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern
:25:36. > :25:40.buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support
:25:41. > :25:43.overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully
:25:44. > :25:52.accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of
:25:53. > :25:59.people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877
:26:00. > :26:05.pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer
:26:06. > :26:09.memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your
:26:10. > :26:16.department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you
:26:17. > :26:22.do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what
:26:23. > :26:26.happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have
:26:27. > :26:31.happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an
:26:32. > :26:42.extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for
:26:43. > :26:55.this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It
:26:56. > :26:59.is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when
:27:00. > :27:04.the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,
:27:05. > :27:10.there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be
:27:11. > :27:15.70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and
:27:16. > :27:20.there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a
:27:21. > :27:28.guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will
:27:29. > :27:31.do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The
:27:32. > :27:40.bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by
:27:41. > :27:46.2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2
:27:47. > :27:57.said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,
:27:58. > :28:02.do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large
:28:03. > :28:06.contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the
:28:07. > :28:12.whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built
:28:13. > :28:17.faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.
:28:18. > :28:23.billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an
:28:24. > :28:29.excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.
:28:30. > :28:37.Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may
:28:38. > :28:43.get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the
:28:44. > :28:53.nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief
:28:54. > :28:56.executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to
:28:57. > :29:01.attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in
:29:02. > :29:07.the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no
:29:08. > :29:11.question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than
:29:12. > :29:15.bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be
:29:16. > :29:19.very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time
:29:20. > :29:26.to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are
:29:27. > :29:29.about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who
:29:30. > :29:34.are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle
:29:35. > :29:40.them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and
:29:41. > :29:45.try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short
:29:46. > :29:57.pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An
:29:58. > :30:04.immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits
:30:05. > :30:09.on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there
:30:10. > :30:13.were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new
:30:14. > :30:19.European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who
:30:20. > :30:23.can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at
:30:24. > :30:28.Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the
:30:29. > :30:31.Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister
:30:32. > :30:38.is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action
:30:39. > :30:47.on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on
:30:48. > :30:53.how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel
:30:54. > :30:58.Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane
:30:59. > :31:06.Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians
:31:07. > :31:09.and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these
:31:10. > :31:14.transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were
:31:15. > :31:19.expecting a rush on January 1st Andrew. I think we were talking
:31:20. > :31:25.about a range of 250,000 to 350 000 people over five years. That's
:31:26. > :31:29.obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net
:31:30. > :31:33.migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of
:31:34. > :31:38.tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be
:31:39. > :31:44.ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled,
:31:45. > :31:49.low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down.
:31:50. > :31:53.Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach
:31:54. > :31:59.of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union We
:32:00. > :32:03.were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted
:32:04. > :32:06.for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when
:32:07. > :32:10.we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and
:32:11. > :32:16.catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in
:32:17. > :32:20.breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we
:32:21. > :32:24.signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer
:32:25. > :32:32.in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and
:32:33. > :32:36.Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The
:32:37. > :32:41.Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it
:32:42. > :32:46.is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying
:32:47. > :32:52.to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in
:32:53. > :32:57.work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this
:32:58. > :33:02.amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs
:33:03. > :33:06.that try to cause trouble, these MPs have been particularly mindless
:33:07. > :33:11.because what they want to do wouldn't be legal. However, it is a
:33:12. > :33:16.Tory internal brief, if I might say so. Maybe you can cause trouble by
:33:17. > :33:23.voting for it. No, that would be going too far. Underlying it is a
:33:24. > :33:27.real antagonism for David Cameron. They have had to hold off on this
:33:28. > :33:31.bill until January. It was supposed to be debating before Christmas As
:33:32. > :33:39.we speak they've not cut a deal so it could be pretty grus om. Nigel
:33:40. > :33:43.Mills, what do you say to that I think there is a recognition that
:33:44. > :33:48.there is a problem with the amount of migration from EU countries that
:33:49. > :33:51.we need to tackle. We could try to achieve an annual cap perhaps,
:33:52. > :33:55.longer limits on when countries get free movement. I think the debate is
:33:56. > :33:59.moving in the right direction, but I think those people who are trapped
:34:00. > :34:04.out of work and desperately looking for work want something to be done
:34:05. > :34:09.now and not wait a few more years while we have more assessments
:34:10. > :34:14.Andrews. People are worried about the level of immigration. They I it
:34:15. > :34:20.is too high. That's the consensus in the country. We spoke to to
:34:21. > :34:23.migration centre in Hackney and they said they are struggling to cope
:34:24. > :34:27.with the number of people using their services. These are people
:34:28. > :34:32.with problems with the law. In the past years EU migrants put in more
:34:33. > :34:37.to the economy in taxation than they take out in benefits. When it comes
:34:38. > :34:42.to free movement, which is agitating Nige em, that horse has bolted. We
:34:43. > :34:46.signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do,
:34:47. > :34:51.unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as
:34:52. > :34:55.far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take
:34:56. > :35:01.this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your
:35:02. > :35:07.amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all
:35:08. > :35:10.want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to
:35:11. > :35:15.see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real
:35:16. > :35:22.concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be
:35:23. > :35:28.done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at
:35:29. > :35:32.all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know
:35:33. > :35:39.that, but if you can't? Is that will depend on what the Labour Party
:35:40. > :35:43.decide to do. They are talking tougher on immigration but will they
:35:44. > :35:47.take action on it? Your party has been talking tough on immigration
:35:48. > :35:52.but I will be surprised if an Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for
:35:53. > :35:56.egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no
:35:57. > :36:04.sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I
:36:05. > :36:09.would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill.
:36:10. > :36:15.That's incredible. Where will this end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a
:36:16. > :36:19.vote on Thursday. There's a lot of amendments people can use to show
:36:20. > :36:23.their concern about migration. We want limited and proportionate
:36:24. > :36:27.action, and that's what I am proposing. I want to see the bill on
:36:28. > :36:32.the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't
:36:33. > :36:37.be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to
:36:38. > :36:43.crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills
:36:44. > :36:48.thank you. You are going to be -- popping up I think on the Sunday
:36:49. > :36:55.Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well.
:36:56. > :36:58.We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You
:36:59. > :37:00.may remember that one UKIP councillor - he's since been
:37:01. > :37:03.suspended - caused controversy last weekend by blaming the recent
:37:04. > :37:06.flooding on the legalisation of gay marriage. Why didn't I think of
:37:07. > :37:10.that? So who better than this man to bring you the unofficial forecast.
:37:11. > :37:15.I'll be bringing you the late least UKIP weather from your area.
:37:16. > :37:21.You're watching Sunday Politics. Also coming up in just over 20
:37:22. > :37:39.minutes, I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.
:37:40. > :37:49.Welcome to Sunday Politics Sites. Basingstoke and Deane has one of the
:37:50. > :38:03.largest property portfolios of any council and all of those rents make
:38:04. > :38:06.up a nice little earner. I'm joined by both Labour and Conservative
:38:07. > :38:14.representatives. On Friday, the government has said that take`home
:38:15. > :38:19.pay has gone. Cost`of`living crisis is sounding like a political slogan.
:38:20. > :38:24.It is one year comparing with another. A few weeks back at the
:38:25. > :38:29.full four years of the coalition, independent commentators are
:38:30. > :38:35.questioning it. It will improve further. By the time we get the
:38:36. > :38:42.election, or you have dropped the great cost crisis? Now, because the
:38:43. > :38:46.figures might have altered a bit, but there might still be an issue as
:38:47. > :38:52.to how much of hits working people have taken. You agree with the
:38:53. > :38:58.figures, that he is going up and people are better off? That is what
:38:59. > :39:10.the figures are saying. GDP is increasing, and... Are people saying
:39:11. > :39:13.that in their pockets? Business confidence is growing, people are
:39:14. > :39:19.employing, employment is at record levels, unemployment is falling.
:39:20. > :39:23.More work needs to be done but this economic plan is working and we're
:39:24. > :39:28.not seeing a double dip or triple dip recession or a requirement for
:39:29. > :39:33.plan B. What about Ed Balls's flat`lining? We do not see that any
:39:34. > :39:39.more. This is the narrative that they are coming out with. It is a
:39:40. > :39:43.narrative that will continue, it has validity and it has resonance on the
:39:44. > :39:47.doorstep. That is what will count. It is a people feel and how they
:39:48. > :39:52.feel they have been treated over the period of Parliament, not one year
:39:53. > :39:56.to the next. Who will be responsible for taking the economy forward, the
:39:57. > :40:00.people who got us into the mess in the first place are the people who
:40:01. > :40:07.are repairing things? What about energy, Christmas power cuts cost
:40:08. > :40:11.millions for thousands as storms brought down the power lines across
:40:12. > :40:17.the South of England in particular. The Rye 100,000 homes without
:40:18. > :40:23.electricity in our region. Last week the bosses of the power distribution
:40:24. > :40:30.companies got a grilling from MPs. One MP found the witnesses less than
:40:31. > :40:34.impressive. I was absolutely amazed at the level of complacency, the
:40:35. > :40:42.content for customers, and we'll know somebody who was affected by
:40:43. > :40:45.this and the southern region, and to find out that the reaction times,
:40:46. > :40:55.the number of people that were without electricity on Christmas Day
:40:56. > :40:59.and Boxing Day was quite remarkable. After complacency from all of you.
:41:00. > :41:04.I think that Ofgem will go away and they will go away and they will do a
:41:05. > :41:08.better job next time around. Will be not need financial incentive to do
:41:09. > :41:15.this? They have a private company, why should they? They have a
:41:16. > :41:19.responsibility to transfer electricity along the lines, that is
:41:20. > :41:24.their responsibility. Do they need an incentive to do that? Rail I do
:41:25. > :41:27.not think so, but I am preceded that we need to have a really kept the
:41:28. > :41:33.way we have structured the electricity market. Ultimately,
:41:34. > :41:36.these transition companies are monopoly providers and they have
:41:37. > :41:40.shown utter contempt for their customers.
:41:41. > :41:47.You asked the question in the Commons at the time of the storms,
:41:48. > :41:54.what we need to do to electricity companies to persuade them to spend
:41:55. > :41:58.more money? You are saying the select committees at their best,
:41:59. > :42:03.calling the companies to account. Whether changes are going to be the
:42:04. > :42:07.norm now. Every 100 years we are seeing these storms, but it is much
:42:08. > :42:14.more frequent than that. The companies have to react to that. The
:42:15. > :42:17.question I posed to the Prime Minister was, given those weather
:42:18. > :42:22.changes, she not now be more investment in nature that river and
:42:23. > :42:27.sea defences are scrutinised to make sure that they can be robust enough
:42:28. > :42:31.to deal with these weather changes. How can you persuade a private
:42:32. > :42:36.company that they need to do that? Response from them was that they
:42:37. > :42:39.were going to go away and be kept this. I am reluctant to provide
:42:40. > :42:46.legislation at this stage... At it might be needed. That is the final
:42:47. > :42:50.threat, but as a conservative we preferred to have that first step of
:42:51. > :42:54.saying, this is a responsibility from a company, this is what you
:42:55. > :43:00.actually have to do. But bear in mind that these storms that we have
:43:01. > :43:05.not seen many years. The Select Committee's threat of legislation,
:43:06. > :43:07.is that enough? What we are seeing is the consequences of that year
:43:08. > :43:19.rate privatisation coming home to roost. This is all predicted. ``
:43:20. > :43:26.Thatcher's privatisation. We do not have this problem in France. State
:43:27. > :43:30.owned French companies own large part of British power supplies. The
:43:31. > :43:34.last Labour government should have taken stronger action, yes, and
:43:35. > :43:37.hopefully the lessons of the last few months will persuade the
:43:38. > :43:40.opposition that they should have taken stronger action on government
:43:41. > :43:48.and that the current model is broken. Ed Miliband's freeze.
:43:49. > :43:52.Investment is drying up. All of these foreign companies, why should
:43:53. > :44:04.they come and get involved in a market where prices might be frozen.
:44:05. > :44:11.One boss said that there is dramatic cooling of investment. Companies are
:44:12. > :44:15.recognising that they will be a change of government that will
:44:16. > :44:18.deliver a different structure. They will have to live with it. The
:44:19. > :44:25.current structure is anti`consumer in this country. Are you actually
:44:26. > :44:31.advocating state ownership when it was under the last government that
:44:32. > :44:40.we ended up with five companies dominating. State ownership? As far
:44:41. > :44:43.as I'm concerned, that is an option. The FSB has a conference tomorrow
:44:44. > :44:49.for they will be telling the government just what it needs to do
:44:50. > :44:58.to help with Spanish in. `` help expansion. What will the message be?
:44:59. > :45:03.We are very excited, this is the first policy day that the FSB is
:45:04. > :45:09.holding. We have a line`up of very impressive speakers. You have a lot
:45:10. > :45:12.of influence now? As far as the employment figures are concerned,
:45:13. > :45:19.small businesses are beginning to employ people again and that is to
:45:20. > :45:22.be very welcomed. We are seeing unemployment figures going down and
:45:23. > :45:30.that has to be welcomed. You expect more growth in 2014? Yes, we do.
:45:31. > :45:34.What either hurdles? The concern that I would have over reducing
:45:35. > :45:41.unemployment and people taking on more, when we hit that 7% figure
:45:42. > :45:50.that Mark Carney has been talking about, he sees that as a figure to
:45:51. > :45:53.put increases in interest rates. For your members, interest`rate rises in
:45:54. > :45:59.Dorset, what with the consequences be? The consequences that we are
:46:00. > :46:04.still fragile, we have seen great improvements, but the economy is
:46:05. > :46:07.still fragile and what I would not want to see as interest rates
:46:08. > :46:13.suddenly rising because we have hit a magic figure. What about pay
:46:14. > :46:19.rises? People who have not had pay rises in small firms, should they be
:46:20. > :46:22.getting it now? Should they be thinking about paying it? The facts
:46:23. > :46:30.about these businesses, largely small businesses pay above the
:46:31. > :46:35.minimum wage and often above the living wage. Small businesses are
:46:36. > :46:43.and have been giving their employees increases, not of the size... And
:46:44. > :46:47.certainly you have to feel for private sector workers who have had
:46:48. > :46:54.their pay frozen. You think that you would like to pay people more? We
:46:55. > :47:02.already pay well above the minimum wage and have done for some years.
:47:03. > :47:06.But of course there is no more money coming into the public sector. It
:47:07. > :47:11.has to be found within the existing coffers and we do not even know the
:47:12. > :47:16.full local government finance settlement rose from Eric Pickles,
:47:17. > :47:21.who is yet to declare his plan. There could be more cuts coming in
:47:22. > :47:24.the next few weeks. Apart from the public sector, do you think that
:47:25. > :47:27.small businesses in the private sector should be thinking about a
:47:28. > :47:32.bit of a pay rise and what would you say to the Chancellor about interest
:47:33. > :47:38.rates. This is the engine behind British economy. 50% of our GDP
:47:39. > :47:46.comes from small and medium`sized businesses. 50% of our employees
:47:47. > :47:53.come from them, 95% of companies in Britain actually imply ten or less
:47:54. > :48:02.people. `` employee. This is why we have reduced corporation tax, this
:48:03. > :48:05.is whether such energy. Very much these messages that the Chancellor
:48:06. > :48:14.understands and wants to support. Pay rise? That is for the Chancellor
:48:15. > :48:17.to make up. Hopefully we'll invite me back in March when the budget
:48:18. > :48:22.comes out and that is when you will see comments about the pay rises. In
:48:23. > :48:26.the Thames Valley, are we seeing the expansion that we're hearing being
:48:27. > :48:32.talked about in a wider economic level? The Thames Valley has never
:48:33. > :48:38.been hit as badly as the rest of the country. We are first out of
:48:39. > :48:43.recession. Looking nationwide, because there are other parts of the
:48:44. > :48:48.economy nanny to be taken on board. But certainly the signs are good
:48:49. > :48:53.locally. 1.I would add to what David said is of course that the impact of
:48:54. > :49:02.business rates on small businesses is disproportionately heavy. Small
:49:03. > :49:05.businesses are still clobbered with the tax that is inherently unfair on
:49:06. > :49:12.small businesses and does need changing. What would you say about
:49:13. > :49:17.that? He's absolutely right. The only signs which argued is that we
:49:18. > :49:29.have a freeze which will be continued and as far as employment,
:49:30. > :49:32.the 2000 pounds NIC that we can get by employing more people, the
:49:33. > :49:38.government is doing things. I'm not here to support either of them, but
:49:39. > :49:43.as far as small businesses are concerned, things are looking
:49:44. > :49:49.better, but we are not out of the woods yet. Councils are busy setting
:49:50. > :49:54.budgets, we were talking about them a moment ago, worrying about where
:49:55. > :49:56.savings be made. But imagine if you were running a council and you had
:49:57. > :49:59.another source of income that brought in more than their council
:50:00. > :50:18.tax and the government grand combined. `` grant.
:50:19. > :50:28.No one would claim that Basingstoke shares much with Dallas. If you
:50:29. > :50:31.would own up to line dancing. Basingstoke and Deane Borough
:50:32. > :50:35.Council may not have oil but it does have land and property, lots and
:50:36. > :50:43.lots of it. And it is a huge property spinner. `` moneyspinner.
:50:44. > :50:51.We own all sorts of things, warehouses, concert halls, doctors
:50:52. > :51:00.surgeries, coffee shops. You do not run a GP surgery. We do not run a GP
:51:01. > :51:03.surgery recovery shop, we own the property and we get rent from the
:51:04. > :51:13.property. How much says that bring in? It brings in about ?50 million,
:51:14. > :51:18.that is more than we get from government grant or council tax. It
:51:19. > :51:24.has one of the largest commercial portfolios of any local authority.
:51:25. > :51:27.It is not as Basingstoke that relies on harrying out its property to make
:51:28. > :51:41.a profit, David Cameron would be delighted to know that the council
:51:42. > :51:48.in his constituency also rents out. Who you rent two is also just as
:51:49. > :51:52.important, so what are the criteria? It depends on what fits in with the
:51:53. > :51:55.other criteria in the borough, we need to be adding something to the
:51:56. > :52:01.quality of life for our residents. For example, the shopping centre,
:52:02. > :52:09.when they decided that they wanted out of that we were able to step in
:52:10. > :52:15.and buy it. It was a 1950s, 1960s shopping centre and brought it up to
:52:16. > :52:19.the current standards. Currently if you are renting a property, the
:52:20. > :52:24.recession must have been a tough time. We have lost substantial
:52:25. > :52:37.amounts, interest rates are half what they used to be. Basingstoke
:52:38. > :52:42.has nearly ?115 million in the bank. It is that rarest of beast 's, a
:52:43. > :52:49.debt free council, one that is about to freeze council tax for the fourth
:52:50. > :52:53.year in a row. Recently it rented someone's to an indoor skydiving
:52:54. > :52:57.centre and a coffee shop next door, bringing in ?100,000 per year. Even
:52:58. > :53:04.though this has led some to accuse the borough of moving into the
:53:05. > :53:10.coffee business. The rate of return was such that it enabled us to
:53:11. > :53:14.invest twice or three times the amount in other things we do not
:53:15. > :53:18.then have to worry about the rate of return from that. We can put those
:53:19. > :53:21.into longer term project for the benefit of the community which we
:53:22. > :53:28.would not otherwise have been able to do. Can you see yourself smaller
:53:29. > :53:33.and more moving down that private line? We need to learn how to work
:53:34. > :53:37.with private business, because that is how you make the most gains.
:53:38. > :53:41.People say, you have all of these assets, why don't you spend them?
:53:42. > :53:46.Don't mind using them, but investing wisely so that you get a return and
:53:47. > :53:52.you can recycle the money is the right way. But going out and
:53:53. > :53:55.frittering the money, in 40 years's ten you will not have a council here
:53:56. > :54:01.who will be able to continue to invest, it will be a council that
:54:02. > :54:04.has no money to invest. Is this just because the good people
:54:05. > :54:11.of Basingstoke have over the years built up this investment? Other
:54:12. > :54:17.councils must look at them with greedy eyes. They are Newtown, they
:54:18. > :54:22.have a of land invested in the first place, but that approach is
:54:23. > :54:29.responsible. There are an accountable body and the money is
:54:30. > :54:34.coming in for the benefit of the local community. To be not have
:54:35. > :54:39.bought houses? I will not decry them. It disappoints me to learn
:54:40. > :54:42.that they are cutting, for example, subsidies to local CB this year. You
:54:43. > :54:52.would have thought that that would have been a priority in the current
:54:53. > :54:57.climate. `` the local CAB. They are accountable, they are probably more
:54:58. > :55:04.transparent than many of the businesses. Good luck to them. Would
:55:05. > :55:08.you say there is line that must not crossed here? You know a lot about
:55:09. > :55:20.the Armed Forces. There was a suggestion that they could be Royal
:55:21. > :55:28.Navy people preaching the virtues of British shipbuilding. Do you think
:55:29. > :55:34.that you'd happen? , you were right, `` you are right, there needs to be
:55:35. > :55:39.a line drawn. Bournemouth focuses on to risen. There is a lot of work
:55:40. > :55:46.that we do to allow wide portfolio to be managed. One that actually
:55:47. > :55:54.supports... You have outsourced a lot in Bournemouth... But that is
:55:55. > :55:57.good, you do not necessarily want councils running things, but you
:55:58. > :56:05.want them to benefit from being able to outsource things. The land is
:56:06. > :56:10.owned by the council, therefore... That they are outsourcing as well.
:56:11. > :56:14.We outsource some. That is something for the local authority to
:56:15. > :56:19.determine. But it is wise for councils throughout the country to
:56:20. > :56:28.consider that. You were saying that Sandhurst is quite a good investment
:56:29. > :56:33.for the government. It is twofold, it strengthens relationships with
:56:34. > :56:40.countries around the world, but also the paper that service as well. In
:56:41. > :56:46.the same way that overseas students benefit from coming here to go to
:56:47. > :56:53.university. Are you saying that they should have a right to buy the boat?
:56:54. > :57:00.And maintain them. He was the 62nd round up.
:57:01. > :57:04.`` here is the round`up in 60 seconds.
:57:05. > :57:14.Photographers outside the home of MP Mike Hancock this because he was
:57:15. > :57:18.suspended `` this week as he was suspended from the Liberal Democrats
:57:19. > :57:20.over accusations of inappropriate sexual advances towards a
:57:21. > :57:28.constituent. The EU wants half of all household
:57:29. > :57:32.rubbish recycled by 2020. This will cheer village is much more
:57:33. > :57:41.21st`century. They have got what they think is the first phone box to
:57:42. > :57:45.offer high`speed Wi`Fi. The MP who did the ceremony was surprised to
:57:46. > :57:52.get an old`fashioned phone call. It rang. In Sussex they were playing
:57:53. > :57:58.host to European anti`fracking protesters. It is important for
:57:59. > :58:08.people to get in front of the companies and say, we refuse it. As
:58:09. > :58:11.we were saying, they still have a nationalised energy situation. But
:58:12. > :58:15.the Russians, some of them do on their own boats. The Russian sailors
:58:16. > :58:21.might get called up and bring their brought into action. The merchant
:58:22. > :58:29.Navy, if you like, they can be upgraded when actually required, so
:58:30. > :58:34.it is reservists. We talked about Mike Hancock year, the Liberal
:58:35. > :58:40.Democrats having a very hard time of it. Lord Rennard, Chris Hughton
:58:41. > :58:56.before that. Is it just their turn for sleaze? `` Chris Huhne. Everyone
:58:57. > :59:02.has skeletons in their cupboards. I be doing the rate thing? It is
:59:03. > :59:08.managing it, they do not think that the Lib Dems have done very well
:59:09. > :59:11.about managing it. They have a very democratic structure which is a
:59:12. > :59:15.hindrance in this situation, is it, or is it actually part of what they
:59:16. > :59:20.would say is one of their virtues? That the whole membership gets to
:59:21. > :59:30.have involvement year? I think that there are prospect is more ``
:59:31. > :59:36.process is more democratic, but a candidate has to be selected and go
:59:37. > :59:39.through the various stages, my concern is that we absolutely need
:59:40. > :59:44.to improve that scrutiny on the one side. We must make sure that we have
:59:45. > :59:47.the best people stepping forward, but we only get the best people
:59:48. > :59:54.stepping forward if they feel that they have the general support of the
:59:55. > :59:57.nation. The balance of that... It is not what they have done before they
:59:58. > :00:00.are selected, it is the behaviour afterwards. No one is
:00:01. > :00:07.questioning... The issue about Mike Hancock... But I do not think it was
:00:08. > :00:12.a case of will for the Kim MPs are peers. It is the way that we manage
:00:13. > :00:16.it. The Lib Dems clearly have a lot to learn from other parties. I think
:00:17. > :00:22.that all parties can learn from this episode as well. That is the Sunday
:00:23. > :00:27.politics in the south. Thank you to both of my guests. You can keep
:00:28. > :00:28.up`to`date with my blog. Back to Andrew.
:00:29. > :00:42.constituency, very pleased. Andrew, back to you.
:00:43. > :00:45.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:46. > :00:49.week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:50. > :00:51.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:52. > :00:59.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:01:00. > :01:02.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:03. > :01:06.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story
:01:07. > :01:11.that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that
:01:12. > :01:14.flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a
:01:15. > :01:23.moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all
:01:24. > :01:26.areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."
:01:27. > :01:32.You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip
:01:33. > :01:38.councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill The
:01:39. > :01:44.old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though
:01:45. > :01:50.he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How
:01:51. > :01:58.quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are
:01:59. > :02:04.occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour
:02:05. > :02:10.councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,
:02:11. > :02:17.and said his real mother was a foot green alien. And in Wales a
:02:18. > :02:26.councillor thinking about heading off for the
:02:27. > :02:34.slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after
:02:35. > :02:40.Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.
:02:41. > :02:46.Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for
:02:47. > :02:50.hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising
:02:51. > :02:58.ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise
:02:59. > :03:02.light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no
:03:03. > :03:07.chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the
:03:08. > :03:11.Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that
:03:12. > :03:16.had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it
:03:17. > :03:22.is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,
:03:23. > :03:28.that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an
:03:29. > :03:33.excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It
:03:34. > :03:37.shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.
:03:38. > :03:42.Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The
:03:43. > :03:45.establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a
:03:46. > :03:53.waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of
:03:54. > :03:57.person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage
:03:58. > :04:00.on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they
:04:01. > :04:04.flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest
:04:05. > :04:11.set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any
:04:12. > :04:16.other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any
:04:17. > :04:22.other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a
:04:23. > :04:25.time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States now
:04:26. > :04:30.almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:31. > :04:40.be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital
:04:41. > :04:45.foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why
:04:46. > :04:49.people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have
:04:50. > :04:55.handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual
:04:56. > :05:02.phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying
:05:03. > :05:07.it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious
:05:08. > :05:10.manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this
:05:11. > :05:17.image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep
:05:18. > :05:21.waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to
:05:22. > :05:28.UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if
:05:29. > :05:33.you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party the
:05:34. > :05:39.rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to
:05:40. > :05:43.you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more
:05:44. > :05:50.authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish
:05:51. > :05:54.second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the
:05:55. > :05:57.poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as
:05:58. > :06:01.Labour versus the Conservatives The electorate will have their fun in
:06:02. > :06:08.May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection
:06:09. > :06:16.is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the
:06:17. > :06:20.Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham
:06:21. > :06:25.Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules
:06:26. > :06:29.well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr
:06:30. > :06:36.Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David
:06:37. > :06:41.Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is
:06:42. > :06:46.the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of
:06:47. > :06:53.the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting
:06:54. > :07:05.the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I
:07:06. > :07:14.like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.
:07:15. > :07:18.I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the
:07:19. > :07:24.phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted
:07:25. > :07:28.to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on
:07:29. > :07:32.the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't
:07:33. > :07:35.dispute anything we said on the show.
:07:36. > :07:38.Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central
:07:39. > :07:41.priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the
:07:42. > :07:44.lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,
:07:45. > :07:47.tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious
:07:48. > :07:54.programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The
:07:55. > :08:00.Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.
:08:01. > :08:05.That's why we are announcing a 23 billion package for 165,000 new
:08:06. > :08:10.affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing
:08:11. > :08:15.associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway
:08:16. > :08:19.through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already
:08:20. > :08:26.coming out of the ground, so we ve made real progress on that. So,
:08:27. > :08:31.165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.
:08:32. > :08:36.Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's
:08:37. > :08:41.commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The
:08:42. > :08:46.problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already
:08:47. > :08:48.have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning
:08:49. > :08:53.regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:54. > :08:58.Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral
:08:59. > :09:03.That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think
:09:04. > :09:11.we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's
:09:12. > :09:15.dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,
:09:16. > :09:21.which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George
:09:22. > :09:25.Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the
:09:26. > :09:31.Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen
:09:32. > :09:37.to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do
:09:38. > :09:41.radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can
:09:42. > :09:45.tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken
:09:46. > :09:48.place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk
:09:49. > :09:53.about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities
:09:54. > :09:57.argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to
:09:58. > :10:00.agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they
:10:01. > :10:06.are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of
:10:07. > :10:11.what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are
:10:12. > :10:17.already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing
:10:18. > :10:21.stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if
:10:22. > :10:25.you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning
:10:26. > :10:29.promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:30. > :10:34.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:35. > :10:39.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:40. > :10:42.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:43. > :10:48.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:49. > :10:53.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:54. > :10:57.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:58. > :11:03.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:04. > :11:09.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:10. > :11:12.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:13. > :11:17.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:18. > :11:23.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:24. > :11:29.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:30. > :11:34.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:35. > :11:38.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:39. > :11:42.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:43. > :11:47.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:48. > :11:53.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:54. > :11:57.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put
:11:58. > :12:03.on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big
:12:04. > :12:07.split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular
:12:08. > :12:11.policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say
:12:12. > :12:15.50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the
:12:16. > :12:20.Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular
:12:21. > :12:24.but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract
:12:25. > :12:28.active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into
:12:29. > :12:33.power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.
:12:34. > :12:36.The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do
:12:37. > :12:40.that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls
:12:41. > :12:46.would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the
:12:47. > :12:51.key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and
:12:52. > :12:55.how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more
:12:56. > :12:59.than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk
:13:00. > :13:04.about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of
:13:05. > :13:08.Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education
:13:09. > :13:12.Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting
:13:13. > :13:16.blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind
:13:17. > :13:19.the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think
:13:20. > :13:24.we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you
:13:25. > :13:28.are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on
:13:29. > :13:31.today. That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:32. > :13:35.my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,
:13:36. > :13:36.and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:37. > :14:14.Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers
:14:15. > :14:22.is now at war with Germany This would be the first
:14:23. > :14:30.truly modern war. and resolve of entire populations
:14:31. > :14:36.against each other. A war that would turn
:14:37. > :14:40.the country upside down.