:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:46. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:52.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:53. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:00.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:01. > :01:06.They could be heading In the South: The crisis in
:01:07. > :01:10.temporary sites for travellers. Dorset has taken three years to
:01:11. > :01:11.produce just one ` will we see even more illegal encampments this
:01:12. > :01:17.summer? which runs the capital's Fire
:01:18. > :01:18.Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his
:01:19. > :01:27.critics. And with me, as always, the most
:01:28. > :01:31.useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually
:01:32. > :01:36.obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our
:01:37. > :01:43.chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a
:01:44. > :01:50.plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be
:01:51. > :01:52.tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the
:01:53. > :01:56.Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be
:01:57. > :02:00.no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent
:02:01. > :02:03.Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't
:02:04. > :02:09.necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were
:02:10. > :02:14.delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:15. > :02:17.The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already
:02:18. > :02:22.beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's
:02:23. > :02:24.speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary
:02:25. > :02:33.Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal
:02:34. > :02:38.Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a
:02:39. > :02:48.sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something
:02:49. > :02:53.of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice
:02:54. > :02:59.played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an
:03:00. > :03:04.unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for
:03:05. > :03:07.certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union
:03:08. > :03:11.actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any
:03:12. > :03:15.big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly
:03:16. > :03:18.named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the
:03:19. > :03:22.Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, outlining all the
:03:23. > :03:26.reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you
:03:27. > :03:30.have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury
:03:31. > :03:34.himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never
:03:35. > :03:42.advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other
:03:43. > :03:44.and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much
:03:45. > :03:49.against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All
:03:50. > :03:52.the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating
:03:53. > :03:57.with a new independent Scotland, a deal is to be done, Faslane where
:03:58. > :04:02.the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that
:04:03. > :04:06.is, certainly not for the next 20 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:07. > :04:09.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:10. > :04:14.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible,
:04:15. > :04:20.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:21. > :04:23.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:24. > :04:28.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:29. > :04:31.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland, any
:04:32. > :04:40.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:41. > :04:48.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:49. > :04:51.when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a
:04:52. > :04:56.problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.
:04:57. > :05:00.But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently
:05:01. > :05:03.promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to
:05:04. > :05:09.remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious
:05:10. > :05:13.mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got
:05:14. > :05:26.you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as
:05:27. > :05:28.running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are
:05:29. > :05:31.narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.
:05:32. > :05:36.This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the
:05:37. > :05:42.polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as
:05:43. > :05:47.part of the United Kingdom. Yes, there were a couple of polls last
:05:48. > :05:51.week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of
:05:52. > :05:57.all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting
:05:58. > :06:00.intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of
:06:01. > :06:06.people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed
:06:07. > :06:11.to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to
:06:12. > :06:16.remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a
:06:17. > :06:21.yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew
:06:22. > :06:25.towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if
:06:26. > :06:31.your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking
:06:32. > :06:35.into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not
:06:36. > :06:39.impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely
:06:40. > :06:43.the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole
:06:44. > :06:47.argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy
:06:48. > :07:04.lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen. It
:07:05. > :07:06.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:07. > :07:09.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:10. > :07:11.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:12. > :07:14.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:15. > :07:20.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:21. > :07:26.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:27. > :07:31.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:32. > :07:39.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:40. > :07:43.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:44. > :07:48.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:49. > :07:54.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:55. > :07:58.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:07:59. > :08:02.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:03. > :08:06.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:07. > :08:11.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:12. > :08:15.the 18th of September this year, not just the next day but the next
:08:16. > :08:19.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:20. > :08:22.when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked
:08:23. > :08:27.about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to
:08:28. > :08:31.get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be
:08:32. > :08:35.on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think
:08:36. > :08:40.that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his
:08:41. > :08:45.word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with
:08:46. > :08:49.giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or
:08:50. > :08:53.having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they
:08:54. > :08:59.have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there
:09:00. > :09:02.is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his
:09:03. > :09:06.story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence, of
:09:07. > :09:11.course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in
:09:12. > :09:13.London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with
:09:14. > :09:21.Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop
:09:22. > :09:29.another country using its. That is different. All London can really do
:09:30. > :09:32.is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The
:09:33. > :09:37.interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.
:09:38. > :09:42.Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out
:09:43. > :09:47.of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's
:09:48. > :09:50.financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of
:09:51. > :09:54.injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial
:09:55. > :09:58.crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it
:09:59. > :10:01.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:02. > :10:05.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:06. > :10:08.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:09. > :10:13.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:14. > :10:18.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:19. > :10:21.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:22. > :10:27.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:28. > :10:32.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:33. > :10:40.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:41. > :10:44.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:45. > :10:52.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:53. > :10:55.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:56. > :10:58.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:10:59. > :11:02.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:03. > :11:05.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:06. > :11:09.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:10. > :11:17.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:18. > :11:24.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:25. > :11:30.been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95% of
:11:31. > :11:34.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:35. > :11:39.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:40. > :11:42.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:43. > :11:47.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:48. > :11:51.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:52. > :11:56.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:57. > :12:00.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:01. > :12:05.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:06. > :12:11.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016,
:12:12. > :12:15.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:16. > :12:21.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:22. > :12:24.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:25. > :12:32.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:33. > :12:37.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:38. > :12:44.capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We
:12:45. > :12:48.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:49. > :12:53.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:54. > :12:59.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:13:00. > :13:05.massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a
:13:06. > :13:10.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:11. > :13:13.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:14. > :13:18.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:19. > :13:20.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:21. > :13:27.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:28. > :13:32.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:33. > :13:36.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:37. > :13:40.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:41. > :13:49.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:50. > :13:54.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:55. > :13:59.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:14:00. > :14:04.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:05. > :14:08.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:09. > :14:13.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:14. > :14:19.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:20. > :14:25.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:26. > :14:31.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:32. > :14:38.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:39. > :14:43.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:44. > :14:48.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:49. > :14:55.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:56. > :15:00.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:01. > :15:03.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:04. > :15:05.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:06. > :15:10.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:11. > :15:15.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:16. > :15:20.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:21. > :15:34.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:35. > :15:37.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:38. > :15:39.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:40. > :15:49.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:50. > :15:56.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:57. > :16:01.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:02. > :16:03.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:04. > :16:07.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:08. > :16:11.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:12. > :16:15.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but
:16:16. > :16:21.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:22. > :16:25.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:26. > :16:30.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:31. > :16:33.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:34. > :16:37.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:38. > :16:42.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:43. > :16:49.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:50. > :16:54.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:55. > :16:57.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:58. > :17:03.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:04. > :17:08.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make
:17:09. > :17:12.sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described
:17:13. > :17:16.to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term
:17:17. > :17:38.policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,
:17:39. > :17:44.policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the
:17:45. > :17:49.chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.
:17:50. > :17:57.What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they
:17:58. > :18:02.would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been
:18:03. > :18:06.working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a
:18:07. > :18:10.reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best
:18:11. > :18:17.not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk
:18:18. > :18:20.about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are
:18:21. > :18:25.prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for
:18:26. > :18:29.them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to
:18:30. > :18:32.off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that
:18:33. > :18:36.something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these
:18:37. > :18:41.contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of
:18:42. > :18:47.diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range
:18:48. > :18:54.of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed
:18:55. > :19:03.gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent
:19:04. > :19:07.generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building
:19:08. > :19:13.a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy
:19:14. > :19:16.situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now
:19:17. > :19:21.and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable
:19:22. > :19:24.targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition
:19:25. > :19:28.commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will
:19:29. > :19:33.see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent
:19:34. > :19:40.generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from
:19:41. > :19:44.the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that
:19:45. > :19:49.company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies
:19:50. > :19:52.wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say
:19:53. > :19:56.Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We
:19:57. > :19:59.are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for
:20:00. > :20:04.renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power
:20:05. > :20:08.stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse
:20:09. > :20:14.is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say
:20:15. > :20:19.that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas
:20:20. > :20:22.plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch
:20:23. > :20:27.for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the
:20:28. > :20:30.pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment
:20:31. > :20:32.including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're
:20:33. > :20:39.talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The
:20:40. > :20:43.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:44. > :20:47.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:48. > :20:53.power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:54. > :20:56.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:57. > :21:02.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:03. > :21:06.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:07. > :21:11.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:12. > :21:14.very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations.
:21:15. > :21:18.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:19. > :21:24.plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:25. > :21:29.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:30. > :21:33.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:34. > :21:37.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:38. > :21:42.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:43. > :21:49.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:50. > :21:52.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:53. > :22:09.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:10. > :22:14.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:15. > :22:18.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:19. > :22:23.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:24. > :22:26.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:27. > :22:30.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:31. > :22:34.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:35. > :22:40.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:41. > :22:47.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:48. > :22:51.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:52. > :22:55.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:56. > :22:59.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:23:00. > :23:05.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:06. > :23:08.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:09. > :23:13.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:14. > :23:18.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:19. > :23:23.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:24. > :23:27.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:28. > :23:32.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:33. > :23:37.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:38. > :23:43.in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:44. > :23:47.it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control
:23:48. > :23:54.framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,
:23:55. > :24:03.Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new
:24:04. > :24:09.factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are
:24:10. > :24:12.saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked
:24:13. > :24:17.about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would
:24:18. > :24:22.come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone
:24:23. > :24:27.higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in
:24:28. > :24:32.the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a
:24:33. > :24:37.few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two
:24:38. > :24:40.years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will
:24:41. > :24:44.come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this
:24:45. > :24:48.example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with,
:24:49. > :24:57.they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down
:24:58. > :25:03.for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation
:25:04. > :25:06.because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal
:25:07. > :25:13.with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15%
:25:14. > :25:17.every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your
:25:18. > :25:20.energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are
:25:21. > :25:25.talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you
:25:26. > :25:31.quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's
:25:32. > :25:34.the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,
:25:35. > :25:40.dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the
:25:41. > :25:47.retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low
:25:48. > :25:52.return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.
:25:53. > :25:56.Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right
:25:57. > :26:00.party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so
:26:01. > :26:03.long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be
:26:04. > :26:06.speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first
:26:07. > :26:09.here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment
:26:10. > :26:12.in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at
:26:13. > :26:16.their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They
:26:17. > :26:20.already were the second largest party in a London council and had a
:26:21. > :26:30.London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties
:26:31. > :26:34.their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring
:26:35. > :26:37.success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded
:26:38. > :26:42.and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty
:26:43. > :26:44.retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that
:26:45. > :26:53.retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of
:26:54. > :26:57.those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were
:26:58. > :27:01.performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller
:27:02. > :27:04.parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they
:27:05. > :27:08.didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the
:27:09. > :27:13.middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities
:27:14. > :27:17.for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the
:27:18. > :27:21.outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 2006 in
:27:22. > :27:24.Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop
:27:25. > :27:26.of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking
:27:27. > :27:36.up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's
:27:37. > :27:38.because of all the different nationality people moving in the
:27:39. > :27:43.area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived
:27:44. > :27:50.there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,
:27:51. > :27:56.they will get elected over here. When I came to Barking, Dagenham and
:27:57. > :27:59.Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the
:28:00. > :28:04.local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now
:28:05. > :28:07.they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,
:28:08. > :28:12.you will find among the older white working-class population concerned
:28:13. > :28:17.that the BNP claim to represent, everyone says they are nowhere. So
:28:18. > :28:23.what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,
:28:24. > :28:28.we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of
:28:29. > :28:36.extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as
:28:37. > :28:39.she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a
:28:40. > :28:43.single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would
:28:44. > :28:46.stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2010
:28:47. > :28:50.was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to
:28:51. > :28:59.find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new
:29:00. > :29:01.political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.
:29:02. > :29:06.Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs
:29:07. > :29:11.and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,
:29:12. > :29:16.BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe
:29:17. > :29:19.that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the
:29:20. > :29:24.difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all
:29:25. > :29:29.get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP
:29:30. > :29:33.didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they
:29:34. > :29:38.will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't
:29:39. > :29:41.got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow
:29:42. > :29:44.MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this
:29:45. > :29:53.programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was
:29:54. > :30:08.after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.
:30:09. > :30:12.Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had
:30:13. > :30:16.already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was
:30:17. > :30:24.a national platform for the BNP, something they felt they had the
:30:25. > :30:31.right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment
:30:32. > :30:35.for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on
:30:36. > :30:39.national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national
:30:40. > :30:42.force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for
:30:43. > :30:46.the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.
:30:47. > :30:55.And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday
:30:56. > :30:59.Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the
:31:00. > :31:05.land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not
:31:06. > :31:10.true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect. The
:31:11. > :31:15.party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that
:31:16. > :31:21.the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly
:31:22. > :31:26.a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate
:31:27. > :31:38.to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --
:31:39. > :31:42.were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.
:31:43. > :31:49.You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or
:31:50. > :31:54.more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests
:31:55. > :31:59.and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point
:32:00. > :32:04.about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat
:32:05. > :32:10.to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have
:32:11. > :32:15.co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly
:32:16. > :32:20.had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is
:32:21. > :32:26.unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your
:32:27. > :32:30.sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see
:32:31. > :32:35.the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in
:32:36. > :32:45.decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you
:32:46. > :32:58.describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and
:32:59. > :33:03.other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking
:33:04. > :33:08.and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What
:33:09. > :33:12.Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white
:33:13. > :33:16.indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how
:33:17. > :33:21.they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well
:33:22. > :33:25.elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your
:33:26. > :33:33.party is heading for bankruptcy. No, it is not. It is over. You would
:33:34. > :33:38.like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in
:33:39. > :33:43.deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no
:33:44. > :33:53.way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then
:33:54. > :33:57.you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be
:33:58. > :34:05.annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP
:34:06. > :34:13.were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are
:34:14. > :34:19.not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in
:34:20. > :34:26.politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to
:34:27. > :34:30.speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at
:34:31. > :34:35.the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be
:34:36. > :34:40.here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying
:34:41. > :34:45.to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why
:34:46. > :34:53.can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in
:34:54. > :35:00.Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We
:35:01. > :35:05.decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.
:35:06. > :35:08.Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you
:35:09. > :35:15.cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs
:35:16. > :35:20.are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections, the
:35:21. > :35:24.problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the
:35:25. > :35:30.National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,
:35:31. > :35:33.that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and
:35:34. > :35:40.how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years
:35:41. > :35:44.ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going
:35:45. > :35:47.to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is
:35:48. > :35:52.going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems.
:35:53. > :35:56.Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with
:35:57. > :36:01.it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the
:36:02. > :36:06.weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a
:36:07. > :36:11.single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to
:36:12. > :36:16.protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were
:36:17. > :36:19.on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they
:36:20. > :36:22.could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.
:36:23. > :36:26.Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:27. > :36:31.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday
:36:32. > :36:46.On today's show: Dorset's Gypsy and 20 minutes,
:36:47. > :36:50.On today's show: Dorset's Gypsy and traveller strategy has taken three
:36:51. > :36:53.years and cost over a quarter of a million pounds but so far produced
:36:54. > :36:57.only one temporary stopping site. Just this week another suggested
:36:58. > :37:04.location was rejected by locals. With the summer coming, are we going
:37:05. > :37:07.to see more illegal encampments? More on that shortly. First, let's
:37:08. > :37:11.meet the two politicians who'll be with us for the next 20 minutes.
:37:12. > :37:13.Simon Letts is the Labour leader of Southampton City Council and Louise
:37:14. > :37:17.Goldsmith is the Conservative leader of West Sussex County Council.
:37:18. > :37:20.There was a BBC survey about the changes to housing benefit and the
:37:21. > :37:23.impact it is having, the number of people who are now in arrears.
:37:24. > :37:30.Louise, the Government first of all said 30% of people would move to
:37:31. > :37:36.smaller properties. It looks now about six or 7%. Have they just not
:37:37. > :37:40.decided to move yet? We're not a housing authority. But one of the
:37:41. > :37:45.things is, in actual fact, we need some more smaller properties to move
:37:46. > :37:48.people into. So you think it is a shortage of smaller properties
:37:49. > :37:51.stopping people moving? To a degree. I think once we can get some smaller
:37:52. > :37:54.properties built, people will be able to move in and have that
:37:55. > :37:57.facility. I think that will help immensely. Is the cart not before
:37:58. > :38:00.the horse here, then? The Conservative policy, but there is
:38:01. > :38:04.nowhere for people to go? No, I think it is to drive through houses
:38:05. > :38:07.to be getting built. So you think the policy is actually going to
:38:08. > :38:10.cause those houses to be getting built? It would be one way of doing
:38:11. > :38:13.it, yes. Absolutely. Simon, how is it in Southampton? You are a housing
:38:14. > :38:17.authority. Yes, we have 1,400 tenants affected by what is called
:38:18. > :38:20.the bedroom tax. We're obviously struggling to move them to a single
:38:21. > :38:24.bedroom property because they are simply not available in our housing
:38:25. > :38:31.stock in the numbers that would be required. Traditionally, we built
:38:32. > :38:33.housing in the city for families, two and three`bedroom housing, a
:38:34. > :38:38.relatively small amount of one`bedroom housing. We knew this
:38:39. > :38:41.was going to happen. If the Government had asked us, we could
:38:42. > :38:44.have told them that. Well, you could also have built the houses, as
:38:45. > :38:47.Louise was saying, you could have started getting more suitable houses
:38:48. > :38:52.for people rather than them having empty bedrooms. Yes, the process of
:38:53. > :38:56.building houses is significantly long`term work. It cannot be put
:38:57. > :39:01.into place within the snap of your fingers by a Government minister
:39:02. > :39:04.suddenly changing policy. We would want to build affordable houses and
:39:05. > :39:07.we are committed to building one affordable house every day during
:39:08. > :39:10.our administration and we're a long way towards that. Painful situation,
:39:11. > :39:13.though, isn't it? Well, it is a very difficult situation. People are
:39:14. > :39:16.aware of what has been happening and what we're doing with the benefits.
:39:17. > :39:19.It has not suddenly leapt out from nowhere. We have been very clear
:39:20. > :39:22.about that. Right. More than 300 schools were hit in
:39:23. > :39:26.our region on Wednesday as teachers staged another one`day strike.
:39:27. > :39:28.They're protesting about Government policy on a range of issues from
:39:29. > :39:35.performance`related pay, what they see as an excessive workload, to
:39:36. > :39:38.changes to their pensions. The NUT leader Christine Blower warned there
:39:39. > :39:43.could be more action later in the year if there was no progress in
:39:44. > :39:48.negotiations with the Government. Joining us now is Amanda Martin, a
:39:49. > :39:53.Portsmouth teacher, from the NUT. This isn't the first time you have
:39:54. > :39:55.gone on strike over these issues. You are just damaging children's
:39:56. > :39:58.education here, causing huge problems for parents, and yet there
:39:59. > :40:07.doesn't seem to be any progress, no benefit. It isn't the first time we
:40:08. > :40:11.have gone strike, and when I came on the programme before, I talked about
:40:12. > :40:14.the fact that teachers go on strike as a last resort. And yes, you're
:40:15. > :40:17.doing it again. We are doing it again. How much further are you?
:40:18. > :40:20.Since the last time we went on strike, we have gained some
:40:21. > :40:23.concessions. There has been an extra 8% put back into the pensions pot,
:40:24. > :40:27.which means every teacher will get ?800 a year more for the rest of
:40:28. > :40:30.their pension years. So that is one concession we have gained. We have
:40:31. > :40:33.also gained the fact that Michael Gove released the workload survey,
:40:34. > :40:38.which showed that teachers were doing 60 hours a week, 56 hours in
:40:39. > :40:41.secondary schools. The STRB Review was released, which is a school
:40:42. > :40:44.teachers' review body, which takes recommendations from the Secretary
:40:45. > :40:49.of State. For the first time ever, they ignored almost all of them. And
:40:50. > :40:52.when you read through the paper, it says the NUT had suggested this and
:40:53. > :40:56.we gave them the research and it has gone from there. But actually, no,
:40:57. > :41:01.we haven't moved on, and that is why we went on strike. But the NASUWT
:41:02. > :41:07.felt that they didn't want to join you on the strike. And only 40% of
:41:08. > :41:13.NUT members voted on it. So 60% of your members didn't even cast a
:41:14. > :41:16.ballot. No. We haven't re`balloted since the last strike action because
:41:17. > :41:21.we're still looking at the same conditions ` workload, pay,
:41:22. > :41:30.pensions. And yes, we did have less numbers open strike this time. ``
:41:31. > :41:34.out on strike. It is the first time since the 1980s we have been on our
:41:35. > :41:37.own. And also there is a lot of intimidation. A lot of teachers feel
:41:38. > :41:41.it is distressing to go on strike. It upsets pupils and parents. But we
:41:42. > :41:44.did listen to parents last time when they said, you know, you have not
:41:45. > :41:46.engaged us. So despite 60`hour weeks, we have been out in January,
:41:47. > :41:49.February, March, weekends, doing street stalls, telling parents why
:41:50. > :41:55.we are going on strike and the changes that are happening in the
:41:56. > :42:00.campaign. Let's move across here. Part of this is about pensions. Why
:42:01. > :42:03.do you think public pensions need to be reformed, teachers' pensions? The
:42:04. > :42:06.pensions in the public sector are the last tranche of what we call
:42:07. > :42:12.defined benefit schemes. Now, for a variety of reasons, they have become
:42:13. > :42:17.very expensive. For almost everybody else in the country, they are
:42:18. > :42:20.closed. What happened in the 1990s with defined benefit schemes is the
:42:21. > :42:29.fact that Gordon Brown put the tax on the trusts and that really
:42:30. > :42:33.impacted. Then you have age, people getting a lot older. We have the
:42:34. > :42:36.demographics. That has caused a big problem on pensions. You have seen
:42:37. > :42:43.across the field a lot of defined pensions closing. So it really is
:42:44. > :42:45.bringing it into line. But if the Government wanted, if the taxpayer
:42:46. > :42:48.wanted to fund these promises which have been made, the teachers'
:42:49. > :42:54.pension scheme, one of the longest in existence since 1923, $46 billion
:42:55. > :42:58.of money has been paid in. More has been paid in than paid out. So the
:42:59. > :43:02.Government has hugely benefited from this scheme and now it does not want
:43:03. > :43:05.to honour its commitment. Well, it will have existing commitments to
:43:06. > :43:08.continue and it is. It is defined benefits. It is the only scheme
:43:09. > :43:13.around that you know you're going to get a set percentage of the earnings
:43:14. > :43:16.you have made. That is a very expensive and a very big guarantee.
:43:17. > :43:19.Would you like to see that change for other public sector employees?
:43:20. > :43:22.In Sussex County Council? I think there are going to be discussions
:43:23. > :43:25.around all of these pensions in the future. Simon Letts, do you still
:43:26. > :43:28.pay defined benefits? Yes. Southampton City Council is part of
:43:29. > :43:31.the Hampshire pensions scheme, which is different from the teachers'
:43:32. > :43:37.scheme, because it is based on investing into the pot which is then
:43:38. > :43:40.invested in the wider economy. The teachers' scheme is you give the
:43:41. > :43:44.money to Government, the Government spends it how it likes, and when you
:43:45. > :43:47.retire, you get some money back from the Government, hence your figures
:43:48. > :43:50.suggest teachers have put more in than they have taken out and it has
:43:51. > :43:54.effectively gone to the general taxation pool and is paid out out at
:43:55. > :43:56.a later date. So it is a different scheme than the more sensible and
:43:57. > :43:59.rational local Government scheme, which is basically investing money
:44:00. > :44:03.to make a profit to pay pensions in the future. But you would agree that
:44:04. > :44:06.in this day and age, the sort of benefits that public sector
:44:07. > :44:08.employees get from their pension schemes are hugely more generous, as
:44:09. > :44:12.they stand, without improvements that Amanda has been fighting for.
:44:13. > :44:15.Well, they are more generous, but I think that is something we should
:44:16. > :44:19.continue to fight for. Because, effectively, I see... As you know,
:44:20. > :44:25.as a former teacher, I worked for 20 years as a teacher, I see that as
:44:26. > :44:28.deferred pay, in effect. You take a graduate job at lower than average
:44:29. > :44:32.graduate wages, you put something back in as a teacher and you know
:44:33. > :44:35.that because of that one of the things you get out of it is a
:44:36. > :44:41.rational and reasonable pension at the end of it. Not working till the
:44:42. > :44:44.age of 68? That is what we signed up for, working to 60. I would
:44:45. > :44:48.challenge, you know, MPs between the ages of 60 and 68 to go into
:44:49. > :44:52.secondary schools and teach a few classes and see what they felt like
:44:53. > :44:56.afterwards. They should have have a go! They really should. And I think
:44:57. > :44:59.that your figures straightaway say that we have paid in more. We have
:45:00. > :45:03.asked the Government to do a financial review before they do any
:45:04. > :45:07.of this and to see how much has been paid in and how much is going out.
:45:08. > :45:11.And going back to 68, I am a parent as well as a teacher. No disrespect,
:45:12. > :45:14.but I do not want my kids being taught by somebody who is 68. And
:45:15. > :45:18.when I have talked to the children in my class, they say, oh, that is
:45:19. > :45:24.really old, Miss! That is my grandma's age! But 68, to be on the
:45:25. > :45:27.floor with schoolkids and to be inspiring secondary schoolkids, to
:45:28. > :45:30.be doing all the things we need to be doing and to be doing 60`hour
:45:31. > :45:35.weeks at 68 years old, it is impossible and it will mean nobody
:45:36. > :45:39.will take their pension. Thank you for coming in and talking to us.
:45:40. > :45:42.It's costing more than a quarter of a million pounds but so far, but
:45:43. > :45:44.after three years of Dorset County Council's Gypsy and traveller
:45:45. > :45:50.strategy, only one temporary stopping site has been adopted from
:45:51. > :45:54.a list of 300 potential locations. It's an emotive issue and always
:45:55. > :45:57.provokes heated arguments. Communities say they don't want
:45:58. > :46:00.their parks and open spaces continually invaded by travellers in
:46:01. > :46:02.the summer months, but as our Dorset political reporter Tristan Pascoe
:46:03. > :46:14.reports, no`one can agree on where temporary sites should be located.
:46:15. > :46:19.It is a game of cat and mouse across Dorset and the South West every
:46:20. > :46:22.summer, with dozens of unauthorised Gypsy traveller incursions into
:46:23. > :46:25.public parks and recreation grounds. Travellers know they can stay until
:46:26. > :46:33.evicted, which often takes between 6`12 days. It is a huge issue, and
:46:34. > :46:36.emotive issue, and last summer I tracked the unauthorised encampments
:46:37. > :46:42.from the e`mails I received from the community. As the travellers moved,
:46:43. > :46:49.so did the e`mail collection move from several places. Gillingham last
:46:50. > :46:51.summer's illegal incursions, many playgrounds became virtual no`go
:46:52. > :46:55.areas for local children and residents complained of the rubbish
:46:56. > :46:59.and Miss left behind. The authorities could move groups on
:47:00. > :47:04.immediately if they can provide a temporary stopping place. If we do
:47:05. > :47:09.not have temporarily traveller site, we have a stand`off each committee
:47:10. > :47:14.fracture. It goes on for days if not weeks. The trouble is, where every
:47:15. > :47:17.site is recommended, it seems, residents protest and local
:47:18. > :47:24.councillors, councils and MPs object. Three years ago, Dorset
:47:25. > :47:27.County Council, working with district authorities, came up with
:47:28. > :47:33.the Trixie and traveller strategy, with a firm of consultants dropped
:47:34. > :47:40.300 potential sites. `` Gypsy and Traveller. Three years later, only
:47:41. > :47:47.one side, this one here at Shaftesbury, has been adopted. Why
:47:48. > :47:51.is it taking so long? Everyone understands why we need to manage
:47:52. > :47:58.the problem. Until a site comes up near them. We have to look at it and
:47:59. > :48:04.explain that this is temporary. This site that you as a village won't
:48:05. > :48:11.like means that your village playing field, the school field of the
:48:12. > :48:15.picnic sites of the car parks will not be invaded. And equality
:48:16. > :48:21.campaigners are frustrated that progress has been so slow. There has
:48:22. > :48:24.been a certain amount of prejudice. Let's be honest, three years later,
:48:25. > :48:28.only one site. It is quite disappointing. Hence the problems
:48:29. > :48:34.that we have had in the last number of years in terms of unauthorised
:48:35. > :48:40.encampments. If you was to refuse this planning application, please
:48:41. > :48:45.show. After Davies if this anti`campaign by residents, a site
:48:46. > :48:52.was thrown out by planners last week. The Gypsy Council had said the
:48:53. > :48:56.former landfill site was unsuitable because of methane contamination,
:48:57. > :48:59.traffic pollution and flood risk. The Borough Council says it is now
:49:00. > :49:03.back to square one. We have been through the process of looking for a
:49:04. > :49:08.parody site and have not succeeded. Under current legislation, we cannot
:49:09. > :49:17.move Gypsies and travellers outside the borough boundary. `` a temporary
:49:18. > :49:22.site. We have been trying to get the law changed. That might allow us to
:49:23. > :49:29.look at a site in collaboration with other authorities in Bournemouth.
:49:30. > :49:32.That seems unlikely, because we have examined every possible site in
:49:33. > :49:37.Bournemouth. In planning terms alone, there is not one that fulfils
:49:38. > :49:40.the criteria. Your position is, there is no room for a temporary
:49:41. > :49:45.traveller site in Bournemouth, and even if there was, it would never
:49:46. > :49:52.get planning. It is a little suicide, I guaranteed vote loser? It
:49:53. > :49:55.look at it quite like that. We try to reflect the views of residents.
:49:56. > :50:00.To provide such a site is not something we can do. But without
:50:01. > :50:05.being able to identify any new sites, it is likely that public
:50:06. > :50:09.parks and children play areas will be taken over by unauthorised
:50:10. > :50:14.encampments for this and maybe many more songs to come.
:50:15. > :50:23.No wonder the public are so annoyed and furious about all of this. I
:50:24. > :50:26.mean, Bournemouth and Poole College during `` are arguing about who
:50:27. > :50:31.should take the travellers. The protection has not been offered to
:50:32. > :50:36.children's play areas and public parks. It is spineless of councils
:50:37. > :50:41.not to tackle this. Yes, frankly. We need to get together and sort this
:50:42. > :50:44.out. At the end of the day, temporary sites will need to be
:50:45. > :50:48.provided and we will need to work across councils and across regions
:50:49. > :50:54.to identify suitable sites and to take some responsibility. Because we
:50:55. > :50:57.cannot carry on with the encampments that are costing the public purse
:50:58. > :51:05.and the capital money that goes into preventing encampments going on to
:51:06. > :51:09.public land. But Simon, you said it was across regions. Ya been given
:51:10. > :51:16.the responsibility to sort this out in Southampton. It is harder in city
:51:17. > :51:20.areas because we have 200 thousand people living in a compact area.
:51:21. > :51:23.Finding suitable sites for cities is more difficult than rural areas
:51:24. > :51:29.where there is more space. These are temporary sites, not permanent.
:51:30. > :51:36.Therefore, the significant facilities are needed. This is what
:51:37. > :51:41.we have been doing in West Sussex. We have 70 illegal encampments in
:51:42. > :51:45.the last year. About 80 months ago, we sat there with the police,
:51:46. > :51:50.district and borough councils and said, look, how do we work together?
:51:51. > :51:54.What happened was a terrific piece of work and I am so proud of it. We
:51:55. > :51:58.saw it out ourselves. The districts and borrowers went out and looked at
:51:59. > :52:02.various options around the country. East Sussex was one model. They came
:52:03. > :52:06.back and presented it. We have grouped together and we now have
:52:07. > :52:09.protocols with police and the protocol that we will be taking
:52:10. > :52:16.control for the districts and borrowers of all this sort of
:52:17. > :52:23.thing. `` the districts and borrowers. We have identified one
:52:24. > :52:25.site in Chichester. That is difficult for the residents around,
:52:26. > :52:30.but this will make a big difference. You have to sort out the protocols
:52:31. > :52:35.and who will do what. And then you think it will make a difference? I
:52:36. > :52:39.am very confident. It has come from the bottom up. We have listened to
:52:40. > :52:42.residents and worked together. It is a cracking model.
:52:43. > :52:45.Now, if you were watching last week, you'll know that as part of our
:52:46. > :52:48.coverage of the European elections we've been talking to MEPs from the
:52:49. > :52:51.five parties with representation in our region. We've reached the
:52:52. > :52:54.halfway stage now. We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats and
:52:55. > :53:06.the Conservatives, and today it's the turn of UKIP.
:53:07. > :53:09.This place is much more important than it got to be and Britain will
:53:10. > :53:13.be much better off out of it. But while it is still there and while we
:53:14. > :53:18.are members of the European Union, it is very important that we have a
:53:19. > :53:29.group of MEPs from the UK Independence Party Google reliably
:53:30. > :53:32.stand up for British interests. He is the UKIP spokesman on trade and
:53:33. > :53:36.has published a report criticising claims that Britain will lose jobs
:53:37. > :53:42.if we leave the EU. The fact of the matter is that
:53:43. > :53:49.China, in 2012, sold almost 290,000 million euros worth of goods to the
:53:50. > :53:53.EU. Russian 2012 sold 223,000 million euros worth of goods. The
:53:54. > :53:57.fact of the matter is that you do not need to be in a political union
:53:58. > :54:03.to trade. You do not even need to have a free`trade agreement to
:54:04. > :54:07.trade. Neither Russia or China have free`trade agreements. The trade
:54:08. > :54:11.would continue. But Nick Clegg says that 3 million jobs are at stake if
:54:12. > :54:14.Britain leads the EU. Some will say we would have more influence of the
:54:15. > :54:19.British people did not waste forts on a protest party like UKIP. And we
:54:20. > :54:22.should send MPs here who are determined to engage with the
:54:23. > :54:28.system. What's Nick Clegg and his hangers on are doing in political to
:54:29. > :54:31.call life is they are selling their politics of fear. They have run out
:54:32. > :54:36.of arguments and it is the politics of fear and deceit. But you claim
:54:37. > :54:41.expenses to come here and cause trouble. It sticks in a lot of
:54:42. > :54:46.people's fraud. Every single MEP gets the same allowances and
:54:47. > :54:55.expenses. Unlike with MPs, it is simply a third the amount of money.
:54:56. > :55:00.If you take expenses, shouldn't you engage with the European Union,
:55:01. > :55:06.fighting for Britain's interests? Your question, with respect, should
:55:07. > :55:16.be asked differently. It is in fact, why, to the other parties, do you
:55:17. > :55:19.not through all this prosperity destroying law that is destroying
:55:20. > :55:23.British interests? We are the only party that opposes it.
:55:24. > :55:28.They now have a lot more councils. Is that changing the character of
:55:29. > :55:34.the party? We have more activists, more supporters, more everything. We
:55:35. > :55:37.have an influx of enthusiastic and able people which has changed as for
:55:38. > :55:45.the better. The establishment parties are not. One of the primary
:55:46. > :55:50.reasons we're here is to tell the British people what is going on. One
:55:51. > :55:54.of your voters `` what of your voters that see the best way of
:55:55. > :56:05.getting a referendum on the US is by voting Conservative? `` on the EU.
:56:06. > :56:11.David Cameron has been unreliable. We need a massive fort for UKIP in
:56:12. > :56:17.the European elections in 2014. `` a massive vote.
:56:18. > :56:22.Over the next two weeks, we will be hearing from Labour and then the
:56:23. > :56:25.Green Party. Now our regular round`up of the
:56:26. > :56:35.political week in the South in 60 seconds.
:56:36. > :56:39.Would you like a pay rise? Workers on the Isle of Wight have some of
:56:40. > :56:43.the worst salaries in the country. The TUC began their campaign for
:56:44. > :56:47.higher wages on the island. Southern Electric agreed to freeze their
:56:48. > :56:51.prices until 2016 on the same day Portsmouth Council were warning of
:56:52. > :56:57.power cuts. But Labour MP Alan Whitehead argued more profits would
:56:58. > :57:01.choke off investment, saying it was more important to have a stable
:57:02. > :57:05.market. It has to be sustainable in the long term and that is when
:57:06. > :57:09.investment will comment. Fracking is not the answer according to Caroline
:57:10. > :57:14.Lucas, in court last week. She argued cheaper energy would, to cost
:57:15. > :57:19.to the environment. Meanwhile, fishermen hit by winter storms are
:57:20. > :57:23.still waiting for compensation. A Dorset MP says EU approval is
:57:24. > :57:26.bureaucratic and slow. The paperwork, the time it takes, and
:57:27. > :57:31.they won't even get the money they need anyway. Finally, all schools
:57:32. > :57:38.are not so sure will get a full`time school must and deal with the NHS.
:57:39. > :57:44.`` all schools in oxygen will get a full`time school nurse in a deal
:57:45. > :57:48.with the NHS. I think David Cameron regrets saying
:57:49. > :57:50.money would be no object. In terms of local authorities, are you
:57:51. > :57:56.getting money through for repairs to roads? The intention was there and
:57:57. > :58:00.it is one of those things. We have 3.5 million and are very grateful
:58:01. > :58:05.for that because the gods have taken a hammering over the last year again
:58:06. > :58:14.for us. We had substantial rains in the last year. And again. There was
:58:15. > :58:17.a ?15 million impact on the roads. People really care about it, you saw
:58:18. > :58:26.that at the last election, didn't you? Yes, we did. The point `` we
:58:27. > :58:28.put millions of pounds into repairing roads in a local
:58:29. > :58:34.initiative which proved fabulously popular. We now have a new programme
:58:35. > :58:38.starting on the 11th where we are putting 30 million over two years on
:58:39. > :58:41.to better road programmes because we know we have to invest in this. It
:58:42. > :58:49.is destined to save money in the future. Is Southampton getting that
:58:50. > :58:55.sort of money? No. We're getting quarter of a million pounds. It is
:58:56. > :59:02.quite a small amount of money, really. How many miles of roads do
:59:03. > :59:07.you have? We have 330 miles of roads. I know you have more, but
:59:08. > :59:11.proportionally we're getting worse. It is a big issue on the doorsteps.
:59:12. > :59:16.We did a survey before the budget and this became one of the top
:59:17. > :59:20.issues. We are pledging next year to double the amount we are spending on
:59:21. > :59:26.roads. That is even now we are facing difficult Financial Times.
:59:27. > :59:29.That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests Simon
:59:30. > :59:32.Letts and Louise Goldsmith. Don't forget to keep up`to`date with
:59:33. > :59:34.southern politics by reading my blog ` there's the address at
:59:35. > :59:35.boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,
:59:36. > :59:49.back to you. Now let's get more from our
:59:50. > :59:53.political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never
:59:54. > :59:57.spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood
:59:58. > :00:01.memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few
:00:02. > :00:04.council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:05. > :00:07.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:08. > :00:11.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:12. > :00:15.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:16. > :00:21.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:22. > :00:24.were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:25. > :00:33.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:34. > :00:38.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:39. > :00:44.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:45. > :00:48.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:49. > :00:56.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:57. > :01:01.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:02. > :01:04.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:05. > :01:08.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:09. > :01:11.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:12. > :01:15.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:16. > :01:20.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:21. > :01:27.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:28. > :01:35.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:36. > :01:40.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:41. > :01:51.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:52. > :01:55.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:56. > :02:00.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:02:01. > :02:05.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:06. > :02:10.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:11. > :02:17.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:18. > :02:24.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:25. > :02:30.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:31. > :02:39.the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:40. > :02:50.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:51. > :02:54.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:55. > :02:58.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:02:59. > :03:12.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:13. > :03:16.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:17. > :03:20.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:21. > :03:26.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:27. > :03:31.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:32. > :03:36.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:37. > :03:40.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:41. > :03:45.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:46. > :03:50.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:51. > :03:53.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:54. > :03:58.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:03:59. > :04:03.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:04. > :04:06.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:07. > :04:12.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:13. > :04:17.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:18. > :04:21.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:22. > :04:25.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:26. > :04:28.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:29. > :04:34.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:35. > :04:38.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:39. > :04:44.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:45. > :04:47.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:48. > :04:53.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:54. > :04:57.the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is
:04:58. > :05:02.quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the
:05:03. > :05:07.Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.
:05:08. > :05:17.One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead
:05:18. > :05:24.over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people
:05:25. > :05:28.who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the
:05:29. > :05:32.Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of
:05:33. > :05:37.Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives
:05:38. > :05:41.did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can
:05:42. > :05:47.sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are
:05:48. > :05:52.concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the
:05:53. > :05:56.Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was
:05:57. > :06:00.impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the
:06:01. > :06:05.British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,
:06:06. > :06:10.you are not occupying the party political territory where we will
:06:11. > :06:14.vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels
:06:15. > :06:20.a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the
:06:21. > :06:25.voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not
:06:26. > :06:28.unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it
:06:29. > :06:32.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:33. > :06:36.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:37. > :06:40.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:41. > :06:45.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:46. > :06:48.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:49. > :06:56.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:57. > :07:00.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:01. > :07:03.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:04. > :07:07.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:08. > :07:13.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:14. > :07:17.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:18. > :07:24.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:25. > :07:30.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:31. > :07:36.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:37. > :07:40.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:41. > :07:45.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:46. > :07:49.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:50. > :07:56.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:57. > :08:00.difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the
:08:01. > :08:05.election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up
:08:06. > :08:08.their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,
:08:09. > :08:12.we do not like this government because of course, you do not like
:08:13. > :08:17.the government. But next January or February they will be making up
:08:18. > :08:22.their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour
:08:23. > :08:26.figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because
:08:27. > :08:33.there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?
:08:34. > :08:37.Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from
:08:38. > :08:43.the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a
:08:44. > :08:47.continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they
:08:48. > :08:54.do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying
:08:55. > :09:01.he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in
:09:02. > :09:05.the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible
:09:06. > :09:09.structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed
:09:10. > :09:15.Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red
:09:16. > :09:18.ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy
:09:19. > :09:23.speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron
:09:24. > :09:28.nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this
:09:29. > :09:33.week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on
:09:34. > :09:38.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:39. > :09:46.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:47. > :09:52.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:53. > :09:59.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:10:00. > :10:08.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We
:10:09. > :10:14.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:15. > :10:23.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:24. > :10:28.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:29. > :10:36.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:37. > :10:43.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:44. > :10:48.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:49. > :10:53.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:54. > :10:58.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:10:59. > :11:06.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later
:11:07. > :11:09.on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important
:11:10. > :11:13.thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration
:11:14. > :11:18.policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to
:11:19. > :11:21.come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important
:11:22. > :11:26.thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I
:11:27. > :11:33.suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11
:11:34. > :11:38.turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I
:11:39. > :11:43.slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought
:11:44. > :11:48.far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public
:11:49. > :11:56.disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean
:11:57. > :12:01.the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the
:12:02. > :12:07.second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man
:12:08. > :12:13.who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.
:12:14. > :12:16.Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs
:12:17. > :12:20.to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions
:12:21. > :12:26.because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after
:12:27. > :12:30.Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands
:12:31. > :12:34.with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign
:12:35. > :12:39.policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria
:12:40. > :12:42.worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of
:12:43. > :12:47.the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say
:12:48. > :12:51.that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for
:12:52. > :12:55.blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating
:12:56. > :13:03.the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's
:13:04. > :13:06.shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does
:13:07. > :13:11.that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing
:13:12. > :13:15.with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will
:13:16. > :13:19.see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily
:13:20. > :13:23.Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here
:13:24. > :13:25.next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:32.it's the Sunday Politics.