13/04/2014

:00:32. > :00:36.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

:00:37. > :00:42.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

:00:43. > :00:45.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

:00:46. > :00:47.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

:00:48. > :00:57.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

:00:58. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

:01:00. > :01:06.In the South: councils were tweeting commentators.

:01:07. > :01:09.In the South: councils were tweeting their wellies off during the recent

:01:10. > :01:12.floods with information about where was underwater. But are the people

:01:13. > :01:16.they needed to reach actually on social media?

:01:17. > :01:19.newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not

:01:20. > :01:25.impartial about informing people of local services.

:01:26. > :01:28.So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next

:01:29. > :01:31.thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections.

:01:32. > :01:33.Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives

:01:34. > :01:36.in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of

:01:37. > :01:39.MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and

:01:40. > :01:50.Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.

:01:51. > :01:53.In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the

:01:54. > :02:02.elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.

:02:03. > :02:05.And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick

:02:06. > :02:11.reminder of what all the fuss is about.

:02:12. > :02:15.The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on

:02:16. > :02:20.Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in

:02:21. > :02:20.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73

:02:21. > :02:25.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the

:02:26. > :02:32.vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are

:02:33. > :02:37.751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The

:02:38. > :02:41.European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners

:02:42. > :02:47.and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and

:02:48. > :02:51.the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

:02:52. > :03:00.caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

:03:01. > :03:04.regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

:03:05. > :03:09.Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

:03:10. > :03:14.relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

:03:15. > :03:17.a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

:03:18. > :03:21.referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.

:03:22. > :03:26.Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

:03:27. > :03:31.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

:03:32. > :03:38.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

:03:39. > :03:42.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,

:03:43. > :03:45.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

:03:46. > :03:50.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

:03:51. > :03:54.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

:03:55. > :03:58.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

:03:59. > :04:04.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

:04:05. > :04:09.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

:04:10. > :04:15.Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

:04:16. > :04:20.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

:04:21. > :04:24.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

:04:25. > :04:28.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

:04:29. > :04:32.bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,

:04:33. > :04:36.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's

:04:37. > :04:42.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

:04:43. > :04:50.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

:04:51. > :04:54.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

:04:55. > :04:56.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

:04:57. > :05:02.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

:05:03. > :05:10.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

:05:11. > :05:14.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

:05:15. > :05:20.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

:05:21. > :05:23.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

:05:24. > :05:29.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

:05:30. > :05:32.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

:05:33. > :05:37.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

:05:38. > :05:44.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

:05:45. > :05:46.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

:05:47. > :05:54.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

:05:55. > :05:57.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

:05:58. > :06:00.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

:06:01. > :06:08.example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

:06:09. > :06:11.Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

:06:12. > :06:16.to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

:06:17. > :06:21.of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

:06:22. > :06:25.Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

:06:26. > :06:31.Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

:06:32. > :06:37.he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

:06:38. > :06:41.him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

:06:42. > :06:49.gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

:06:50. > :06:52.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

:06:53. > :06:58.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

:06:59. > :07:01.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

:07:02. > :07:06.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

:07:07. > :07:13.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

:07:14. > :07:16.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

:07:17. > :07:21.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

:07:22. > :07:24.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

:07:25. > :07:27.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

:07:28. > :07:36.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

:07:37. > :07:40.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

:07:41. > :07:44.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

:07:45. > :07:51.changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

:07:52. > :07:58.perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

:07:59. > :08:04.say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

:08:05. > :08:08.deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

:08:09. > :08:13.Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

:08:14. > :08:19.can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

:08:20. > :08:25.of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

:08:26. > :08:29.apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

:08:30. > :08:33.Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

:08:34. > :08:36.business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

:08:37. > :08:40.probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

:08:41. > :08:43.in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

:08:44. > :08:49.necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

:08:50. > :08:56.says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

:08:57. > :09:00.rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

:09:01. > :09:05.vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

:09:06. > :09:10.was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of

:09:11. > :09:14.reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

:09:15. > :09:19.about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

:09:20. > :09:22.forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

:09:23. > :09:30.backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

:09:31. > :09:33.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

:09:34. > :09:40.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

:09:41. > :09:43.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

:09:44. > :09:52.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

:09:53. > :09:58.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

:09:59. > :10:01.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

:10:02. > :10:05.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

:10:06. > :10:12.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

:10:13. > :10:16.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

:10:17. > :10:20.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

:10:21. > :10:24.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

:10:25. > :10:28.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

:10:29. > :10:36.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

:10:37. > :10:39.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

:10:40. > :10:45.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

:10:46. > :10:48.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

:10:49. > :10:53.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

:10:54. > :11:01.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

:11:02. > :11:06.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

:11:07. > :11:11.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it

:11:12. > :11:15.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

:11:16. > :11:20.We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

:11:21. > :11:26.our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

:11:27. > :11:30.not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

:11:31. > :11:33.immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

:11:34. > :11:38.centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

:11:39. > :11:42.pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

:11:43. > :11:46.three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

:11:47. > :11:50.and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

:11:51. > :11:55.and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

:11:56. > :11:57.only this week the office for National said that they did not

:11:58. > :12:02.collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

:12:03. > :12:06.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

:12:07. > :12:13.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

:12:14. > :12:18.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

:12:19. > :12:24.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

:12:25. > :12:30.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

:12:31. > :12:33.EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

:12:34. > :12:39.to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

:12:40. > :12:44.positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

:12:45. > :12:48.will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

:12:49. > :12:51.Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

:12:52. > :12:55.really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

:12:56. > :13:01.thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

:13:02. > :13:04.now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

:13:05. > :13:09.and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And

:13:10. > :13:15.that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

:13:16. > :13:18.leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

:13:19. > :13:25.Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

:13:26. > :13:39.you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

:13:40. > :13:42.today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

:13:43. > :13:52.work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

:13:53. > :13:55.wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

:13:56. > :13:59.countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

:14:00. > :14:02.Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

:14:03. > :14:16.join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

:14:17. > :14:19.which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

:14:20. > :14:22.free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

:14:23. > :14:30.saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

:14:31. > :14:33.British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

:14:34. > :14:37.to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

:14:38. > :14:41.You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

:14:42. > :14:45.have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

:14:46. > :14:52.they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

:14:53. > :14:56.were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

:14:57. > :15:02.benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

:15:03. > :15:10.they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

:15:11. > :15:14.more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A

:15:15. > :15:21.spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

:15:22. > :15:26.Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

:15:27. > :15:30.that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

:15:31. > :15:35.it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU

:15:36. > :15:39.states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

:15:40. > :15:43.Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

:15:44. > :15:48.was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

:15:49. > :15:54.again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

:15:55. > :15:59.Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

:16:00. > :16:05.million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

:16:06. > :16:11.didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

:16:12. > :16:17.Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

:16:18. > :16:21.trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

:16:22. > :16:26.count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

:16:27. > :16:31.people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

:16:32. > :16:37.habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

:16:38. > :16:40.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

:16:41. > :16:45.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

:16:46. > :16:48.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

:16:49. > :16:52.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

:16:53. > :16:56.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

:16:57. > :17:00.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

:17:01. > :17:07.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

:17:08. > :17:15.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

:17:16. > :17:22.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

:17:23. > :17:25.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

:17:26. > :17:30.Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

:17:31. > :17:38.backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

:17:39. > :17:41.not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

:17:42. > :17:45.come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

:17:46. > :17:51.represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

:17:52. > :17:54.Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

:17:55. > :17:58.character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

:17:59. > :18:02.and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

:18:03. > :18:08.between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

:18:09. > :18:11.time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

:18:12. > :18:14.trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

:18:15. > :18:19.deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

:18:20. > :18:23.States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

:18:24. > :18:27.favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

:18:28. > :18:32.moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

:18:33. > :18:36.have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

:18:37. > :18:41.coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

:18:42. > :18:49.How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

:18:50. > :18:53.Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

:18:54. > :18:57.in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

:18:58. > :19:02.spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

:19:03. > :19:06.undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

:19:07. > :19:11.speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

:19:12. > :19:16.Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

:19:17. > :19:19.peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

:19:20. > :19:27.together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

:19:28. > :19:31.Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

:19:32. > :19:35.sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

:19:36. > :19:39.Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

:19:40. > :19:43.doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

:19:44. > :19:47.someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:48. > :19:51.peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

:19:52. > :19:56.admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

:19:57. > :20:00.Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

:20:01. > :20:08.don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

:20:09. > :20:11.said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:12. > :20:17.Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

:20:18. > :20:22.but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:23. > :20:26.carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

:20:27. > :20:30.over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

:20:31. > :20:35.what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:36. > :20:40.is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:41. > :20:46.and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

:20:47. > :20:53.keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:54. > :20:57.Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:58. > :21:01.issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:21:02. > :21:07.Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

:21:08. > :21:11.foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

:21:12. > :21:19.important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:20. > :21:25.in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:26. > :21:32.Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:33. > :21:37.up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:38. > :21:42.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:43. > :21:49.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:50. > :21:54.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:55. > :21:59.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:22:00. > :22:04.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

:22:05. > :22:09.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

:22:10. > :22:13.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

:22:14. > :22:20.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

:22:21. > :22:23.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

:22:24. > :22:29.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

:22:30. > :22:34.that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

:22:35. > :22:39.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

:22:40. > :22:41.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

:22:42. > :22:48.Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

:22:49. > :22:51."deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

:22:52. > :22:56.Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

:22:57. > :23:00.mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

:23:01. > :23:04.must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

:23:05. > :23:08.awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

:23:09. > :23:13.don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:14. > :23:17.for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

:23:18. > :23:23.You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

:23:24. > :23:29.dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

:23:30. > :23:33.quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

:23:34. > :23:38.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

:23:39. > :23:41.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

:23:42. > :23:45.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

:23:46. > :23:50.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

:23:51. > :23:54.the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to

:23:55. > :23:59.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

:24:00. > :24:01.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

:24:02. > :24:06.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

:24:07. > :24:11.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

:24:12. > :24:15.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

:24:16. > :24:22.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:23. > :24:26.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:27. > :24:29.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:30. > :24:36.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:37. > :24:39.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:40. > :24:44.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:45. > :24:47.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:48. > :24:50.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:51. > :24:54.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:55. > :24:59.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:25:00. > :25:04.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:05. > :25:09.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:10. > :25:15.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:16. > :25:18.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:19. > :25:24.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:25. > :25:28.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?

:25:29. > :25:31.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:32. > :25:34.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:35. > :25:38.work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our

:25:39. > :25:44.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:45. > :25:50.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:51. > :25:56.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:57. > :26:03.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The

:26:04. > :26:09.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:10. > :26:13.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:14. > :26:17.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:18. > :26:22.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:23. > :26:28.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:29. > :26:34.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:35. > :26:40.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We

:26:41. > :26:45.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:46. > :26:49.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:50. > :26:54.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:55. > :26:59.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:27:00. > :27:04.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:05. > :27:07.attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:08. > :27:11.up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:12. > :27:16.UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:17. > :27:21.didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:22. > :27:25.decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:26. > :27:32.representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:33. > :27:38.saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:39. > :27:42.quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:43. > :27:48.and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:49. > :27:53.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:54. > :27:59.jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:28:00. > :28:02.?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:28:03. > :28:06.getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:07. > :28:11.secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:12. > :28:16.wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:17. > :28:21.who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:22. > :28:25.that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:26. > :28:28.allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:29. > :28:32.when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:33. > :28:39.using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:40. > :28:44.were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:45. > :28:50.our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:51. > :28:52.The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:53. > :28:57.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:58. > :29:01.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:29:02. > :29:05.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:06. > :29:10.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:11. > :29:14.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:15. > :29:20.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:21. > :29:25.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We

:29:26. > :29:28.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:29. > :29:33.Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:34. > :29:39.they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:40. > :29:45.burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:46. > :29:51.Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's

:29:52. > :29:57.financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:58. > :30:03.financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:30:04. > :30:07.all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:08. > :30:10.the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:11. > :30:15.of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:16. > :30:18.enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:19. > :30:23.Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:24. > :30:27.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:28. > :30:32.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:33. > :30:36.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:37. > :30:41.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:42. > :30:47.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5

:30:48. > :30:51.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:52. > :30:56.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:57. > :30:59.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:31:00. > :31:02.money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:03. > :31:06.Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:07. > :31:15.have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:16. > :31:23.Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He

:31:24. > :31:27.is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:28. > :31:30.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:31. > :31:35.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:36. > :31:41.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:42. > :31:48.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:49. > :31:52.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:53. > :31:56.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:57. > :32:04.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:32:05. > :32:08.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:09. > :32:13.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:14. > :32:16.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It

:32:17. > :32:20.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:21. > :32:24.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:25. > :32:28.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:29. > :32:33.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:34. > :32:40.Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:41. > :32:45.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:46. > :32:50.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:51. > :32:55.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:56. > :33:00.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:33:01. > :33:07.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:08. > :33:12.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:13. > :33:16.EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:17. > :33:20.that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:21. > :33:28.the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:29. > :33:36.some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:37. > :33:39.sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:40. > :33:46.a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:47. > :33:52.the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:53. > :33:56.to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:57. > :33:59.national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:34:00. > :34:07.challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:34:08. > :34:13.good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:14. > :34:16.not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:17. > :34:23.success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:24. > :34:30.the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:31. > :34:33.not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:34. > :34:37.on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:38. > :34:42.future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:43. > :34:46.with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd

:34:47. > :34:51.tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:52. > :34:57.stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:58. > :35:01.Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:35:02. > :35:05.enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:06. > :35:09.economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:10. > :35:14.exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:15. > :35:20.services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:21. > :35:24.something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:25. > :35:30.after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:31. > :35:34.from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:35. > :35:38.goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:39. > :35:45.to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:46. > :35:53.me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:54. > :35:56.looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:57. > :36:06.anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:36:07. > :36:10.irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:11. > :36:12.reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:13. > :36:16.anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:17. > :36:19.doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:20. > :36:23.sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:24. > :36:29.pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:30. > :36:32.could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:33. > :36:37.would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:38. > :36:43.overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:44. > :36:47.sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:48. > :36:52.but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:53. > :36:59.Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:37:00. > :37:07.outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:08. > :37:13.inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:14. > :37:18.putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:19. > :37:22.have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:23. > :37:26.think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:27. > :37:29.will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:30. > :37:32.It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:33. > :37:35.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:36. > :37:45.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:46. > :37:47.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty Welcome to Sunday Politics South `

:37:48. > :37:52.my name's Peter Henley. On today's show, social media is all the rage

:37:53. > :37:54.amongst councils. It's free, and in the recent floods they were

:37:55. > :37:58.enthusiastically sending out updates on where was flooded. But are there

:37:59. > :38:02.enough people at the receiving end to make it worthwhile?

:38:03. > :38:06.More on that shortly. First, let's meet the two politicians who'll be

:38:07. > :38:08.with me for the next 20 minutes. Layla Moran is the Liberal Democrat

:38:09. > :38:11.prospective parliamentary candidate for Oxford West and Abingdon, and

:38:12. > :38:21.Caroline Nokes is the Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North.

:38:22. > :38:24.Welcome both. Hello, Peter. And as with last week, the big drama this

:38:25. > :38:26.week featured the Culture Secretary Maria Miller, her expenses conundrum

:38:27. > :38:29.and then her sudden resignation from the cabinet.

:38:30. > :38:32.The saga began 16 months ago, with a complaint from Labour MP John Mann

:38:33. > :38:35.to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards that she had used

:38:36. > :38:40.taxpayers' money to subsidise her parents living in a second home in

:38:41. > :38:43.London. Just over a week ago, the standards committee's report cleared

:38:44. > :38:46.her of that, but did insist she repay ?5,800 in overclaimed expenses

:38:47. > :38:52.and make an apology to the house for her attitude during the committee's

:38:53. > :38:55.enquiry. The committee has recommended that I apologise to the

:38:56. > :39:03.house for my attitude to the commissioners' enquiries, and I, of

:39:04. > :39:06.course, unreservedly apologise. But at just 32 seconds long, the apology

:39:07. > :39:12.was soon seen is not sufficiently contrite. The calls for her

:39:13. > :39:15.resignation began, although the Prime Minister insisted on several

:39:16. > :39:18.occasions that she still had his full confidence.

:39:19. > :39:22.Maria Miller's doing an excellent job as Culture Secretary, and will

:39:23. > :39:25.continue to do that. If we look at this report, yes, of course these

:39:26. > :39:29.issues do matter, but she was cleared of the original allegation

:39:30. > :39:32.made against her. But the press had now scented blood,

:39:33. > :39:35.and Conservative backbenchers and even anonymous ministers were

:39:36. > :39:41.starting to get nervous about how all this was impacting on the

:39:42. > :39:43.party's electoral helps. Then, early on Wednesday, hours before PMQs,

:39:44. > :39:48.came the sudden announcement that Maria Miller had resigned as culture

:39:49. > :39:52.secretary. I hoped that I could stay, but it's

:39:53. > :39:54.become clear to me over the last few days that this has become an

:39:55. > :39:57.enormous distraction, and it's not right that I am distracting from the

:39:58. > :40:00.incredible achievements of this government. I've been a member of

:40:01. > :40:04.the Conservative Party for 30 years, and I want to make sure that my

:40:05. > :40:05.position is not in any way detracting from the achievements of

:40:06. > :40:21.the government. So, Caroline Nokes, why did she go?

:40:22. > :40:23.I think she went because she realised that there wasn't

:40:24. > :40:26.sufficient support for her to carry on, and people are understandably,

:40:27. > :40:34.even all these years on, still very angry about the expenses scandals

:40:35. > :40:37.and things that happened pre`2010. Justifiably angry? Absolutely

:40:38. > :40:41.justifiably angry, and I wasn't there before 2010, and I saw how

:40:42. > :40:44.angry people were in my own constituency about it, and I think

:40:45. > :40:46.it is absolutely imperative that we get over this, that people make

:40:47. > :40:50.heartfelt, sincere apologies, and do their best to try and restore

:40:51. > :40:57.confidence in their politicians. She should have made a heartfelt,

:40:58. > :41:02.sincere apology earlier, then? Yes, I think she should have done.

:41:03. > :41:05.Layla Moran, has this left David Cameron stronger or weaker, would

:41:06. > :41:09.you say? I think obviously weaker. It hasn't been a good week for him.

:41:10. > :41:12.Clearly he doesn't understand the public mood. If he had, he would

:41:13. > :41:15.have got rid of her earlier, actually. The whole thing is just so

:41:16. > :41:19.emotive for everyone. I've been out on doorsteps, and it is the number

:41:20. > :41:23.one thing that's brought up. And it is a plague on all of our houses,

:41:24. > :41:27.and it's up to all of us who are in or want to be in Parliament to make

:41:28. > :41:30.the case for integrity in this profession. It is partly why I want

:41:31. > :41:34.to stand as an MP. When I first joined the Liberal Democrats, that

:41:35. > :41:37.was one of the reasons why I stood, because I saw what was happening and

:41:38. > :41:40.I wanted to stand up for integrity. And people from 2010, your intake,

:41:41. > :41:46.were even more annoyed in some ways, weren't they, at Parliament, about

:41:47. > :41:49.this? I think the 2010 intake were particularly annoyed. We came in

:41:50. > :41:52.hoping there was going to be a clean sheet, and actually, there is still

:41:53. > :41:55.a very unfortunate hangover from what went on before. Paul Harvey,

:41:56. > :41:58.leader of the Labour group on Basingstoke Council is with us. She

:41:59. > :42:02.has resigned as a Cabinet Minister. Do you think she should continue as

:42:03. > :42:06.an MP? She has done the right thing this week by resigning as a Cabinet

:42:07. > :42:09.minister. It took her long enough, and it took David Cameron long

:42:10. > :42:12.enough to deal with the issue. I think that created a significant

:42:13. > :42:15.amount of anger locally, because it was a sense of saying, you don't get

:42:16. > :42:18.this. You're not listening and you don't understand. And that did

:42:19. > :42:20.tremendous damage, and I think if she listens to local people, local

:42:21. > :42:27.people have genuinely lost confidence in her, and she needs to

:42:28. > :42:30.reflect on that. In terms of going forward here, we have got to put

:42:31. > :42:32.this system right. There has got to be independent regulation and

:42:33. > :42:35.independent assessment of members of Parliament. It cannot be

:42:36. > :42:38.self`regulation any more. We just cannot have that. People have got to

:42:39. > :42:41.have trust and confidence. And in this case, this might be an example

:42:42. > :42:45.of where the Recall of Parliamentarians Bill would have

:42:46. > :42:48.come into force. For something like this, which is not just about what

:42:49. > :42:53.she ended up spending, but also about her attitude towards the whole

:42:54. > :42:59.thing. She has been pulled up for being out of order. You're in favour

:43:00. > :43:02.of recall. I've long supported my colleagues at Goldsmith on the issue

:43:03. > :43:06.of recall, but I think what we have to have is proper recall, where the

:43:07. > :43:10.power is in the hands of the local electors. I think it would be

:43:11. > :43:14.absolutely wrong to have a recall bill that put the power in the hands

:43:15. > :43:16.of fellow MPs. Constituency members should be judged by their own

:43:17. > :43:19.constituents, and I firmly believe should have the power within a

:43:20. > :43:27.parliamentary period to recall their MP if sufficient are concerned

:43:28. > :43:29.enough to do so. This has done damage to the

:43:30. > :43:33.Conservatives, and the other two here have talked about David Cameron

:43:34. > :43:37.suffering. Would you agree with that? Well, I think that Maria

:43:38. > :43:40.should have apologised and resigned last Thursday, and I think it is a

:43:41. > :43:45.very great shame that she didn't do so. However, I don't think we can

:43:46. > :43:50.allow this to undermine the very good work that David Cameron has

:43:51. > :43:54.been doing as Prime Minister. He hasn't handled this as well as he

:43:55. > :43:56.could have done. I think the Prime Minister showed commendable loyalty

:43:57. > :44:00.to a Cabinet minister. You have to remember that the report cleared her

:44:01. > :44:03.of the charges that a Labour MP had made against her, so I think it was

:44:04. > :44:06.a very difficult situation, and it's just a shame that Maria didn't

:44:07. > :44:09.resign earlier herself. Paul Harvey, partly she was caught in the

:44:10. > :44:12.crossfire from Leveson. Any Cabinet minister would have been turned over

:44:13. > :44:16.by the papers, wouldn't they, whoever the individual was?

:44:17. > :44:19.This is nobody else's fault but Maria's. She made those choices to

:44:20. > :44:24.obstruct the enquiry in the way that she did, that led to her 32`second

:44:25. > :44:28.apology that caused so much anger. The idea that you can just stand up

:44:29. > :44:31.and give 32 seconds of an apology came across as being contemptuous

:44:32. > :44:34.and arrogant, and that did not do her any favours. And then you look

:44:35. > :44:37.at the issues in the constituency. This has been an issue in

:44:38. > :44:41.Basingstoke since 2009, when she flipped her home. It isn't as if

:44:42. > :44:43.this is something new. This has been bubbling away, growing and growing

:44:44. > :44:47.and growing, and came to boiling point this week. And we have all

:44:48. > :44:51.been in the spotlight this week, as politicians, and what we have got to

:44:52. > :44:54.do is give people trust in what we do. They don't trust local

:44:55. > :44:58.councillors either? Well, it's what we do that matters. It really is.

:44:59. > :45:02.Our actions have got to be clear and open and upfront now in how we do

:45:03. > :45:04.our job. We look after what the constituents care about, housing,

:45:05. > :45:08.buses, all those issues that people care about in their daily lives.

:45:09. > :45:12.That's what we've got to be about, and the system at Westminster has

:45:13. > :45:16.got to be absolutely independent. MPs can no longer regulate

:45:17. > :45:19.themselves. I couldn't agree more, and David Cameron has really shot

:45:20. > :45:22.himself in the foot this week, because what Nigel Farage, in my

:45:23. > :45:26.opinion, is playing to is this distrust of politicians in general.

:45:27. > :45:32.As we know, the Conservatives are most likely to be defecting to UKIP.

:45:33. > :45:37.The fact that he couldn't read... They say they draw from all parties.

:45:38. > :45:40.They do, but as a proportion, it's more likely to be Tory. And this is

:45:41. > :45:44.another example of why people should be voting for UKIP, in the eyes of

:45:45. > :45:48.Farage, which of course, is rubbish, but there you are. UKIP are here as

:45:49. > :45:52.the people who are untainted by expenses.

:45:53. > :45:55.I mean, you can set aside some of what has happened in the European

:45:56. > :45:58.Parliament. As councillors in Hampshire, they are not claiming any

:45:59. > :46:01.expenses. Maybe as councillors in Hampshire,

:46:02. > :46:04.they're not claiming any expenses, but I think Mr Farage himself has

:46:05. > :46:07.admitted that he's claimed more than ?2 million in expenses, and has his

:46:08. > :46:13.wife on the payroll, despite pledging not to.

:46:14. > :46:16.And so, I do not think that UKIP's hands are clean when it comes to

:46:17. > :46:29.expenses, and I think that it's entirely opportunistic of UKIP to

:46:30. > :46:32.try to use this as Strange we ended up talking about

:46:33. > :46:34.them, though, isn't it? Paul, thanks for coming in.

:46:35. > :46:38.Social media ` everyone's doing it these days, aren't they? Or are

:46:39. > :46:41.they? Local councils have gone a bit wild in a frenzy of keeping

:46:42. > :46:44.residents informed via various online services. But just how many

:46:45. > :46:47.residents did they actually end up informing? Just how many are even

:46:48. > :46:49.online regularly, never mind using social media regularly? As our

:46:50. > :46:51.Berkshire political reporter Patrick O'Hagan reports, councils'

:46:52. > :46:56.enthusiasm could be a touch misplaced.

:46:57. > :47:02.Ah, the good old days. Bashing away at the keyboard, aching fingers,

:47:03. > :47:05.typos galore. Then you had to spend all your money on envelopes and

:47:06. > :47:07.stamps before heading out your nearest postbox. It all took so

:47:08. > :47:13.long. Thankfully, these days, we have the

:47:14. > :47:21.computer, the laptop, the smartphone, all of which allow us to

:47:22. > :47:25.send those all important e`mails. There it is. It's gone. Of course,

:47:26. > :47:28.millions of e`mails are sent out by people every day, but some would

:47:29. > :47:35.argue that e`mail is becoming old hat already. When the floods hit

:47:36. > :47:38.West Berkshire back in February, the council were swamped with calls.

:47:39. > :47:41.It used Twitter to tell people where they could get hold of sandbags,

:47:42. > :47:44.spreading the word on which roads were closed, and letting people know

:47:45. > :47:47.when the council's workers and other emergency staff would come round to

:47:48. > :47:50.help them. People were learning things from Twitter and then telling

:47:51. > :48:02.neighbours and friends what they had read on Twitter. In the absence of

:48:03. > :48:05.information, you get rumours. Often, those rumours are wrong, and Twitter

:48:06. > :48:08.has allowed us to say, no, we are definitely coming, or, we're going

:48:09. > :48:12.to do it this way, just to counteract false rumours. Media

:48:13. > :48:14.experts say that for public bodies like local authorities, social media

:48:15. > :48:18.is becoming increasingly useful in dealing with fast`moving crises like

:48:19. > :48:21.the recent flooding. When you think about why councils might want to use

:48:22. > :48:24.Twitter, they have a mechanism through which they can broadcast to

:48:25. > :48:28.a large number of people very quickly. When you think of a public

:48:29. > :48:36.sector organisation trying to e`mail everyone, the practicalities of that

:48:37. > :48:39.are very difficult. So what do people here make of the

:48:40. > :48:43.idea of their local council using social media? The majority of people

:48:44. > :48:48.do have Facebook and Twitter, and do follow people, so it's a cheap way

:48:49. > :48:50.of getting the message out. I think it's quite scary that sometimes

:48:51. > :48:54.people know things quicker by Facebook and that than by other

:48:55. > :48:59.ways. I mean, it's very fast. It's a grapevine. How many people use it my

:49:00. > :49:02.age, I don't know. You'll be getting the messages out to the youngsters,

:49:03. > :49:06.but not really to older people, I don't think.

:49:07. > :49:10.And that's something experts say local authorities need to keep front

:49:11. > :49:17.of mind when they are using social media. When you think about public

:49:18. > :49:20.emergencies, disasters, flooding, often people who need help from the

:49:21. > :49:25.authorities the most are not using the internet and not using social

:49:26. > :49:34.media. Twitter's very much a two`way street. Listening what where

:49:35. > :49:37.listening to what people are telling you can be just as important as what

:49:38. > :49:40.you're telling them. One good example was in Aldermaston, where a

:49:41. > :49:43.tree fell down and blocked the main road. A resident tweeted

:49:44. > :49:46.photographs. We were able to send out a contractor, and then that same

:49:47. > :49:49.resident took photographs which we were able to retweet to everybody,

:49:50. > :49:52.telling them what was going on with the clearing of the road will stop

:49:53. > :49:56.social media is free, and with council budgets feeling the squeeze,

:49:57. > :49:58.it's no wonder they are keen to use it.

:49:59. > :50:01.It's very, very tempting in a time when budgets are being tempted, to

:50:02. > :50:04.say, well, it doesn't cost is nothing, lots of people are using

:50:05. > :50:07.it. But there's always that risk that when you really, really need

:50:08. > :50:11.it, it doesn't work. Because you don't control it. And what's lost in

:50:12. > :50:13.some of the excitement is that, as the saying goes, the future is

:50:14. > :50:22.here, it's just not evenly distributed.

:50:23. > :50:26.Keen to exploit its possibilities, councils are increasing their social

:50:27. > :50:31.media presence. The next step is to find a way to target the people

:50:32. > :50:35.least likely to use it. Sad to see a moment pushing a body

:50:36. > :50:39.using a smartphone. Poor little child is being ignored! Isn't it

:50:40. > :50:43.easy to spend too much time on social media? Far too easy, and

:50:44. > :50:48.something that my daughter will always pick me up on, and say, could

:50:49. > :50:53.you not pay me more attention? But it plays a really important role, as

:50:54. > :50:56.the film shows. When we had floods in Oxford, it was vital we knew what

:50:57. > :51:01.was going on. You were looking on the websites, listening to the

:51:02. > :51:05.radio, but at the same time, the human connection of, I have been

:51:06. > :51:09.down this road and taken a picture, and now everyone knows before the

:51:10. > :51:15.news. That is crucial. Do you think some people are left out, though?

:51:16. > :51:19.Absolutely, and I am very conscious in my community that coverage of

:51:20. > :51:25.fast broadband is very poor and mobile coverage in some villages is

:51:26. > :51:28.exceptionally bad. So if you are reliant on the internet and social

:51:29. > :51:33.media for information, it will be a struggle. But most councils take a

:51:34. > :51:39.very pragmatic approach to trying to get information out by as many forms

:51:40. > :51:43.of media as possible. In some ways, it is a question of speeding up,

:51:44. > :51:48.maybe making them more efficient? I think you must access all forms of

:51:49. > :51:54.information. This question of the digital divide is a real one in this

:51:55. > :51:58.country, and I have the same problem, that in the villages, there

:51:59. > :52:02.are people without that access to information. You could argue that to

:52:03. > :52:07.access information, whether for jobs or welfare or whatever else, it is

:52:08. > :52:10.necessary in this modern world. It is a real issue. Thank you.

:52:11. > :52:12.If all that's got your social media juices going, don't forget to take

:52:13. > :52:16.part in our snapapolitician extravaganza. The idea is you take a

:52:17. > :52:19.selfie with a politician who's come round to canvass and then either

:52:20. > :52:26.tweet it to us at #snapapolitician, or email it to us at

:52:27. > :52:30.sundaypolitics.south@bbc.co.uk. Here's one I prepared earlier with

:52:31. > :52:44.our guests to give you an idea of what we're on about. They are even

:52:45. > :52:46.being so relaxed about it! We'll even accept selfies from the

:52:47. > :52:49.politicians, but they have to include real voters and not just

:52:50. > :52:52.staff members. We've had a few already. John Moore seems to have

:52:53. > :52:55.met a slightly self`conscious Iain Duncan Smith down the shops, and

:52:56. > :52:58.managed to sell Commons Speaker and Buckingham MP John Bercow a cake.

:52:59. > :53:01.Hello, Mr Speaker, if you are watching. But the prize for most

:53:02. > :53:04.prolific snapper so far goes to Bob Smytherman, the Mayor of Worthing,

:53:05. > :53:07.who's sent us five so far, including one in a bath which we'll leave you

:53:08. > :53:10.to find online for yourselves! Just under six weeks till the

:53:11. > :53:13.European elections, and over the past few programmes we've been

:53:14. > :53:16.hearing from the parties who currently send MEPs to Brussels from

:53:17. > :53:19.the South. We've already heard from the Liberal Democrats,

:53:20. > :53:20.Conservatives, UKIP and Labour. Today's the final one, and it's the

:53:21. > :53:33.Green Party. This place matters, because we can

:53:34. > :53:39.use it for the common good. We need to change the way it works. But

:53:40. > :53:45.actually, we are better off in than we are out.

:53:46. > :53:49.Keith Taylor is one of only two British MEPs from the Green party.

:53:50. > :53:53.Until 2010, he was a councillor in Brighton, who took over from

:53:54. > :53:59.Caroline Lucas when she got her Westminster seat. I've never worked

:54:00. > :54:02.as hard in my life, actually, but it has been a fantastic opportunity to

:54:03. > :54:07.make a real difference, not only to the people of the region, but also

:54:08. > :54:11.as part of the European movement. How does it compare to Brighton and

:54:12. > :54:16.Hove Council? Is it easier or more difficult to get things done? The

:54:17. > :54:20.differences are obvious, but with Brighton and Hove Council, with

:54:21. > :54:26.local UK politics, it is very adversarial. People disagree with

:54:27. > :54:32.you because you are the wrong tribe, whereas here, in the European

:54:33. > :54:36.Parliament, the assumption is that your work is not done until you have

:54:37. > :54:39.got something resolved. One thing you have campaigned on its air

:54:40. > :54:44.quality, something which clearly needs concerted action, not just in

:54:45. > :54:49.one country. Have you managed to get things done there? Yes, absolutely.

:54:50. > :54:52.We have the year of hair in 2013, and as a result, I have been working

:54:53. > :55:00.alongside non`governmental organisation than lawyers in support

:55:01. > :55:04.of their action against the British government for the government's in

:55:05. > :55:09.action on air pollution. We actually need to tighten up the standards. We

:55:10. > :55:13.need to make them more global to follow the World Health Organisation

:55:14. > :55:18.recommendations about air pollution, and that needs to be for

:55:19. > :55:26.the benefit of everybody living in Europe. About fracking, as a lot of

:55:27. > :55:30.possibly Conservative supporters that have been against the European

:55:31. > :55:35.Union, who might support things. At that change things? Both Britain and

:55:36. > :55:37.Poland really want to see fracking proceed, irrespective of the fact

:55:38. > :55:43.that we aren't going to get any cheaper gas prices, the fact that it

:55:44. > :55:46.is going to run the risk of air pollution, water pollution, and huge

:55:47. > :55:52.disruption in the region of the south`east. The simple fact is, you

:55:53. > :55:56.can't regulate fracking safely. You are killing a very deep hole,

:55:57. > :56:01.cutting millions of gallons of water down its with toxic chemicals. How

:56:02. > :56:08.can you regulate against that? Will it be an election this year? Dead

:56:09. > :56:12.right it will, absolutely. As I say, do not vote for someone who supports

:56:13. > :56:17.fracking. On things like immigration, surely the way the vote

:56:18. > :56:21.has gone is about things like taking control of our own borders? There

:56:22. > :56:25.are many problems in the UK, but actually, immigration is not one of

:56:26. > :56:28.them. Migrants get blamed for the lack of affordable housing, for

:56:29. > :56:34.instance. Reason is not that we have got too many migrants. The reason is

:56:35. > :56:39.the governments, both Labour and coalition, have failed to put money

:56:40. > :56:43.into housing. We have a depressed construction industry, a depressed

:56:44. > :56:47.budget, so I think the public can actually make a decision based on

:56:48. > :56:52.the facts rather than what they read in populist scapegoating newspapers

:56:53. > :57:02.and political tracts. Peter Taylor from the Green Party.

:57:03. > :57:05.And why not see if you can spot a wannabe MEP out campaigning and send

:57:06. > :57:07.us a selfie with them to #snapapolitician?

:57:08. > :57:10.Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60

:57:11. > :57:23.seconds, this week a feast for fans of new technology, and old.

:57:24. > :57:29.Police use of Taser 's has more than doubled in parts of the cell. They

:57:30. > :57:32.are increasingly used to control Dangerous Dogs Act, and records

:57:33. > :57:39.reveal many more officers regularly carry them.

:57:40. > :57:44.Have you noticed those blue telephone boxes? It is back to the

:57:45. > :57:48.future for Dorset Police, with this Doctor Who style police box in

:57:49. > :57:52.Boston. Both a tourist attraction, Andy Grace the local bobbies.

:57:53. > :57:56.Meanwhile, down the coast, people in Purbeck have been getting huge bills

:57:57. > :58:02.when their mobile phones switched to French networks. Your phone will

:58:03. > :58:05.just grab the strongest signal. This more simple technology could save

:58:06. > :58:08.the lives of cyclists. Oxford University research shows

:58:09. > :58:14.that drivers identify the symbol faster. In that millisecond, this

:58:15. > :58:18.gives you time subconsciously and consciously to adjust.

:58:19. > :58:22.Unwell acres of this power station has been sold off for housing, they

:58:23. > :58:29.have started installing solar panels on Oxford council homes, giving

:58:30. > :58:32.tenants free electricity. Those are clever, they? And the

:58:33. > :58:38.solar panels are working well and not with? I am a big fan of that

:58:39. > :58:43.initiative. Anything that enables us to increase our renewable energy

:58:44. > :58:47.input, that is great. And 70% of Oxford cycles to work. Anything we

:58:48. > :58:52.can do to decrease the number of cycling deaths is a good thing.

:58:53. > :58:55.Those Tasers are nasty things. But defibrillators in schools is a

:58:56. > :59:00.campaign you have taken up? Absolutely. We had a nasty incident

:59:01. > :59:04.in a school in my constituency, but fortunately, the young man survived

:59:05. > :59:07.because the school already had a defibrillator. I am joining with a

:59:08. > :59:10.number of campaign groups up and down the country and in this region

:59:11. > :59:16.to encourage not just schools but all public buildings install public

:59:17. > :59:20.access defibrillators. You must use them quickly, that is the point of

:59:21. > :59:25.having them in the buildings? The first four minutes at crucial, and

:59:26. > :59:29.the survival rates plummet if you don't get to them with a

:59:30. > :59:32.defibrillator within four minutes. The new machines are fabulous,

:59:33. > :59:40.instructions as you go along, so a really important asset for our

:59:41. > :59:43.schools. URA teacher. Would people use that? I think they were, with

:59:44. > :59:47.the right training. We have a culture where teachers are told not

:59:48. > :59:51.to touch and all that, but we must be careful and make sure there are

:59:52. > :59:55.procedures in place. But I agree. I think it is a good thing. These are

:59:56. > :59:59.special ones, they took you through how to do it? Absolutely. In South

:00:00. > :00:02.Central Ambulance Service has a great scheme where they can be

:00:03. > :00:06.insecure boxes, they will give you the code when you dial 999 to get

:00:07. > :00:09.the box up the wall of the building, and they will talk you

:00:10. > :00:13.through every step of the process. Let's hope you spread the word about

:00:14. > :00:15.that a bit more. Thank you both for coming on this week.

:00:16. > :00:19.That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests Layla

:00:20. > :00:21.Moran and Caroline Nokes. Don't forget to keep snapping those

:00:22. > :00:26.politicians ` hashtag snapapolitician or there's the email

:00:27. > :00:37.address at the bottom of the screen. For now though it's back to Andrew.

:00:38. > :00:47.risk. We have run out of time. -- particular candidates. Back to you,

:00:48. > :00:50.Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the

:00:51. > :00:53.London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.

:00:54. > :01:04.Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.

:01:05. > :01:08.We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the

:01:09. > :01:13.debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to

:01:14. > :01:18.bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four

:01:19. > :01:21.parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know

:01:22. > :01:25.much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament

:01:26. > :01:34.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of

:01:35. > :01:38.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not

:01:39. > :01:44.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing

:01:45. > :01:49.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are

:01:50. > :01:55.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks

:01:56. > :01:58.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that

:01:59. > :02:04.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP

:02:05. > :02:10.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the

:02:11. > :02:14.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these

:02:15. > :02:17.individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because

:02:18. > :02:22.these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of

:02:23. > :02:29.making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know

:02:30. > :02:32.the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong

:02:33. > :02:36.opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the

:02:37. > :02:43.immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at

:02:44. > :02:46.that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this

:02:47. > :02:49.European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on

:02:50. > :02:54.the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much

:02:55. > :02:57.from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these

:02:58. > :03:04.televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that

:03:05. > :03:11.Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each

:03:12. > :03:14.man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man

:03:15. > :03:21.can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an

:03:22. > :03:23.elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold

:03:24. > :03:27.the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse

:03:28. > :03:33.incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before

:03:34. > :03:35.the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much

:03:36. > :03:40.to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the

:03:41. > :03:44.elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against

:03:45. > :03:47.Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that

:03:48. > :03:55.format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the

:03:56. > :04:00.polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between

:04:01. > :04:04.UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and

:04:05. > :04:09.we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both

:04:10. > :04:13.of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news

:04:14. > :04:19.for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of

:04:20. > :04:25.the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre

:04:26. > :04:28.election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not

:04:29. > :04:34.clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too

:04:35. > :04:40.disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr

:04:41. > :04:47.Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars

:04:48. > :04:49.away, what are the consequences? I think there is a widespread

:04:50. > :04:55.expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come

:04:56. > :04:58.first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great

:04:59. > :05:02.deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is

:05:03. > :05:07.remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal

:05:08. > :05:14.leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently

:05:15. > :05:17.very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back

:05:18. > :05:23.to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was

:05:24. > :05:29.miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics

:05:30. > :05:34.that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come

:05:35. > :05:38.third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory

:05:39. > :05:42.backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,

:05:43. > :05:50.complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,

:05:51. > :05:53.I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron's

:05:54. > :05:57.personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on

:05:58. > :06:03.conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence

:06:04. > :06:10.of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls

:06:11. > :06:15.today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel

:06:16. > :06:22.Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster

:06:23. > :06:26.for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But

:06:27. > :06:32.he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great

:06:33. > :06:38.deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good

:06:39. > :06:43.thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.

:06:44. > :06:49.That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%

:06:50. > :06:52.in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he

:06:53. > :06:56.knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that

:06:57. > :07:02.have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they

:07:03. > :07:07.do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it

:07:08. > :07:11.support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their

:07:12. > :07:18.MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out

:07:19. > :07:20.for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of

:07:21. > :07:25.the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence

:07:26. > :07:28.of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple

:07:29. > :07:32.of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because

:07:33. > :07:36.Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable

:07:37. > :07:41.is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate

:07:42. > :07:44.at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny

:07:45. > :07:47.Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate

:07:48. > :07:52.either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If

:07:53. > :07:59.they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits

:08:00. > :08:03.score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or

:08:04. > :08:09.another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader

:08:10. > :08:13.of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in

:08:14. > :08:17.the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to

:08:18. > :08:23.me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership

:08:24. > :08:27.talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you

:08:28. > :08:34.have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The

:08:35. > :08:37.grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they

:08:38. > :08:41.lose their network of activists, who they need to fight the next

:08:42. > :08:44.election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it

:08:45. > :08:52.would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.

:08:53. > :08:56.Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be

:08:57. > :09:01.different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto

:09:02. > :09:05.the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where

:09:06. > :09:10.does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this

:09:11. > :09:13.time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not

:09:14. > :09:20.win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit

:09:21. > :09:23.of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases

:09:24. > :09:29.is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually

:09:30. > :09:33.winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when

:09:34. > :09:35.they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an

:09:36. > :09:40.interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a

:09:41. > :09:46.number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put

:09:47. > :09:51.them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a

:09:52. > :09:55.legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just

:09:56. > :10:03.because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet

:10:04. > :10:08.the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that

:10:09. > :10:11.many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You

:10:12. > :10:14.wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he

:10:15. > :10:18.was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and

:10:19. > :10:21.dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation

:10:22. > :10:25.they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let

:10:26. > :10:29.somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they

:10:30. > :10:34.are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange

:10:35. > :10:38.story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.

:10:39. > :10:44.If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let

:10:45. > :10:48.the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases

:10:49. > :10:56.because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is

:10:57. > :10:58.so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing

:10:59. > :11:03.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are

:11:04. > :11:06.falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their

:11:07. > :11:11.abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the

:11:12. > :11:15.kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem

:11:16. > :11:19.a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed

:11:20. > :11:23.to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific

:11:24. > :11:27.crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has

:11:28. > :11:30.no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that

:11:31. > :11:33.has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had

:11:34. > :11:37.Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as

:11:38. > :11:40.bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people

:11:41. > :11:43.suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in

:11:44. > :11:48.Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,

:11:49. > :11:55.Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this

:11:56. > :11:59.true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you

:12:00. > :12:04.were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it

:12:05. > :12:09.right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his

:12:10. > :12:16.opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of

:12:17. > :12:20.this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain

:12:21. > :12:24.about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it

:12:25. > :12:29.is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is

:12:30. > :12:33.it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.

:12:34. > :12:37.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.

:12:38. > :12:43.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly

:12:44. > :12:49.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation

:12:50. > :12:53.and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot

:12:54. > :12:57.going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the

:12:58. > :14:00.BBC In 2013, the public voted for

:14:01. > :14:03.a portrait of At times he's interesting,

:14:04. > :14:11.at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life

:14:12. > :14:19.and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous

:14:20. > :14:21.when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre

:14:22. > :14:25.of attention but for ever.