:00:34. > :00:37.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking
:00:38. > :00:46.about the Europe-wide contest that really matters. No, not Eurovision.
:00:47. > :00:49.The European elections. There are local elections across England too
:00:50. > :00:53.on May 22nd. The party leaders are campaigning ahead of polling day.
:00:54. > :00:59.The results could be a pointer to the Big One, May 2015. We'll be
:01:00. > :01:02.speaking to the man in charge of Labour's election battle plan. Has
:01:03. > :01:05.the opposition really got its sights set on all-out victory in 2015? Or
:01:06. > :01:12.will it just be content with squeaking home? And you can't
:01:13. > :01:16.mention elections these days without talking about the impact of this
:01:17. > :01:22.In the South: As the local dlections him if UKIP really
:01:23. > :01:25.In the South: As the local dlections loom, have we just got too lany
:01:26. > :01:27.councils with too many councillors sitting on them? And if a ther has
:01:28. > :01:28.to be shed, which boroughs. What will make a
:01:29. > :01:40.difference to the way you vote? And I'm joined by three journalists
:01:41. > :01:43.guaranteed to bring a touch of Eurovision glamour to your Sunday
:01:44. > :01:46.morning. With views more controversial than a bearded
:01:47. > :01:56.Austrian drag act and twice the dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen
:01:57. > :01:58.Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might have thought you've already heard
:01:59. > :02:02.David Cameron promise an in-out referendum on EU membership in 017
:02:03. > :02:08.if he's still Prime Minister. Many times. Many, many times. Well he
:02:09. > :02:11.obviously doesn't think you've been listening, because he's been saying
:02:12. > :02:15.it again today. Here he is speaking to the BBC earlier. We will hold a
:02:16. > :02:19.referendum by the end of 2017. It will be a referendum on an in-out
:02:20. > :02:23.basis. Do we stay in a reformed European Union or do we leave? And
:02:24. > :02:26.I've said very clearly that whatever the outcome of the next election,
:02:27. > :02:29.and of course I want an overall majority and I'm hoping and
:02:30. > :02:32.believing I can win an overall majority, that people should be in
:02:33. > :02:41.no doubt I will not become Prime Minister unless I can guarantee that
:02:42. > :02:46.we will hold a referendum. Here s saying there that an overall
:02:47. > :02:50.majority there will definitely be a referendum. If these are the
:02:51. > :02:55.minority position, he won't form a new coalition unless they agree to a
:02:56. > :02:58.referendum, too. The Lib Dems a pulmonary agree to that. They
:02:59. > :03:02.probably will because the Prime ministers have a strong argument
:03:03. > :03:06.which is I gave you a referendum back in 2010 so the least I need is
:03:07. > :03:10.theirs and the Lib Dems are the only party who have stood in recent
:03:11. > :03:14.elections on a clear mandate to hold a referendum, so it is difficult for
:03:15. > :03:18.them to say no, there was interesting the interview he did
:03:19. > :03:21.earlier today. He named everything was going to ask for. The most
:03:22. > :03:26.controversial with him, as he said in his speech last year, he wants to
:03:27. > :03:31.take Britain out of the commitment to make the European Union and ever
:03:32. > :03:36.closer union. That is a very big ask, but the point is, he may well
:03:37. > :03:39.get it because the choice for the European Union now, France and
:03:40. > :03:45.Germany, is a clear wonderful do Britain in or out? Previously, it
:03:46. > :03:48.was can you put up with a British prime ministers being annoying? I
:03:49. > :03:53.think you'll find the answer is they are willing to pay a price but not
:03:54. > :03:57.any price to keep Britain in. In this scenario, Labour would have
:03:58. > :04:03.lost the election again because we are talking the slowly happen if Mr
:04:04. > :04:07.Cameron is the largest party or has an overall majority. Could you then
:04:08. > :04:11.see Labour deciding we had better go along with a referendum, too? I
:04:12. > :04:13.think that's unlikely because as I think that's unlikely because
:04:14. > :04:16.there's a huge upside for that for I think what's interesting is the idea
:04:17. > :04:21.he would for minority government. Would you get confidence and look at
:04:22. > :04:24.other options that might well happen with the way the arithmetic is going
:04:25. > :04:27.or is he going to hold out and say the only way I will be Prime
:04:28. > :04:32.Minister is in a majority Conservative government? No, the
:04:33. > :04:36.implication of his remarks was I wouldn't form a coalition government
:04:37. > :04:41.unless my coalition partners would also agree to vote for a referendum.
:04:42. > :04:45.He's basically talking about is negotiating strategy in those
:04:46. > :04:50.coalition talks. It's a red line and a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems,
:04:51. > :04:54.because they know David Cameron absolutely has to do, for accidental
:04:55. > :04:58.reasons, as a person who survives as Tory leader, to ask for that
:04:59. > :05:03.referendum, so they can ask anything they want in return and if I was
:05:04. > :05:06.Nick Clegg, I would work out in the next year one absolute colossal
:05:07. > :05:13.negotiating demand for those coalition talks. For a party around
:05:14. > :05:16.10% in the polls, they will do have the Prime Minister over a barrel on
:05:17. > :05:27.this one, assuming that coalition talks goes well. They could make
:05:28. > :05:31.Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we need to move on. So, the politicians
:05:32. > :05:34.are out and about on what used to be called the stump ahead of local and
:05:35. > :05:37.European elections in less than two weeks' time. But, without wanting to
:05:38. > :05:40.depress you on a damp Sunday morning, the party strategists are
:05:41. > :05:43.already hard at work on their campaign plans for the General
:05:44. > :05:46.Election next May. Yes, it's less than a year to go. They may have
:05:47. > :05:49.taken their time, but Labour's battleplan for 2015 is starting to
:05:50. > :05:52.take shape. As well as take promising to freeze your energy
:05:53. > :05:55.bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate of tax, Ed Miliband now says he
:05:56. > :06:00.wants to intervene in the housing market to keep rents down. There's
:06:01. > :06:05.even talk that the party leadership wants to bring more railway lines
:06:06. > :06:09.into public ownership. And Labour is gambling that its big push on the
:06:10. > :06:13.cost of living will see it through to the general election despite
:06:14. > :06:15.evidence that growth is firmly back. Labour's campaign chief Douglas
:06:16. > :06:23.Alexander hopes it all adds up to victory next May. But so far, the
:06:24. > :06:27.evidence is hitting home very thin. One survey today shows that 56% of
:06:28. > :06:32.people don't think Mr Miliband is up to the job of Prime Minister. As we
:06:33. > :06:35.head towards one of the least predictable general elections in 70
:06:36. > :06:40.years, has Labour got a message to win seats up and down the country?
:06:41. > :06:47.And Labour's election co-ordinator and Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:06:48. > :06:50.Douglas Alexander, joins me now Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of
:06:51. > :06:54.these policies announced polar pretty well. By popular with the
:06:55. > :07:00.country. When you add them together, it's a move to the left and what
:07:01. > :07:03.would be wrong with that? I think is your packet suggests, the contours
:07:04. > :07:09.in the coming campaign are becoming clear. Our judgement is the defining
:07:10. > :07:12.issue of the year in British politics will be the widening gap
:07:13. > :07:15.between the wealth of the country and the finances of ordinary
:07:16. > :07:19.families. We believe it will be a cost of living election and we have
:07:20. > :07:22.been setting out our thinking in relation to energy prices and rent,
:07:23. > :07:25.but you will hear more from Labour Party in the coming months because
:07:26. > :07:30.we're now less than one year away from a decisive moment. If the
:07:31. > :07:35.leftish think tank suggested any of his policies in that Tony Blair
:07:36. > :07:41.years, you would have opposed them. Let's be clear, when not going for
:07:42. > :07:44.an interest but seeking to secure a majority for the only way to do that
:07:45. > :07:47.is not simply to appeal to your base, but to the centre ground. I
:07:48. > :07:53.believe we got genuine opportunities in the next year. You have the
:07:54. > :07:57.Conservatives in a struggle with UKIP on the right of politics. The
:07:58. > :08:01.Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their base, and there's a genuine
:08:02. > :08:05.opportunity in the next year for Labour to dominate the centre ground
:08:06. > :08:10.of politics and secure the majority Labour government we are planning
:08:11. > :08:20.for in the coming year. I notice you didn't deny you wouldn't have
:08:21. > :08:24.opposed. You say you have got an message for aspirational voters in
:08:25. > :08:27.the South. This is what John Denham said. He thinks you're talking too
:08:28. > :08:43.much to your core vote. He is right to recognise we took a
:08:44. > :08:46.terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If you look at what we've done in the
:08:47. > :08:52.last week, for example, the signature policy on rent Ed Miliband
:08:53. > :08:55.announced to launch the campaign, there's now more than 9 million
:08:56. > :09:00.people in the country in the private rented sector, more than 1 million
:09:01. > :09:02.families. Many of them are in the south-east. They are seeing
:09:03. > :09:07.circumstances where, suddenly, landlord will increase the rent and
:09:08. > :09:11.they put the pressure involved in schooling, health care facing the
:09:12. > :09:15.families, so it is important both in terms of policy and in terms of
:09:16. > :09:19.politics that we speak to the whole country, not simply to one part of
:09:20. > :09:27.it falls up what is the average rise in event last year? I don't know.
:09:28. > :09:33.Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real terms. I'm not sure what the problem
:09:34. > :09:37.is. It will happen to wages in last year, we are facing circumstances
:09:38. > :09:44.where people will be worse off, up to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if
:09:45. > :09:49.our opponents want to argue that the economy has healed and they deserve
:09:50. > :09:53.a victory lap, good luck to them because actually, what we are
:09:54. > :09:57.hearing from the Buddhist public, not just in the north and south is
:09:58. > :10:01.not the cost living crisis is continuing and it affects families.
:10:02. > :10:06.There was nothing aspirational about your party election broadcast for
:10:07. > :10:10.the European elections. It looked like crude class war to money
:10:11. > :10:13.people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom tax. Isn't it going to look bad that
:10:14. > :10:19.two thirds of those affected are disabled? Who cares? They can't
:10:20. > :10:28.fight back. Shall be lay-offs and NHS nurses? The National Health
:10:29. > :10:38.Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who said that? Me. My gosh. The man has
:10:39. > :10:43.shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What shall we do with him? Can we hunt
:10:44. > :10:49.him? Nothing about Europe, Labour policy. News that the Tories would
:10:50. > :10:55.result in negative campaigning and smear. You didn't tell you would be
:10:56. > :10:58.just as bad. Let's start the party broadcast. The one thing guaranteed
:10:59. > :11:05.to have most people reaching for the remote control these days are the
:11:06. > :11:09.words, there now follows a party but the broadcast. I make no apology in
:11:10. > :11:13.the factory to be innovative in how we presented. It's factual. It was a
:11:14. > :11:18.policy -based critic of this government. And the Lib Dems role
:11:19. > :11:22.within it. So you're claiming it's factual to betray the camera and
:11:23. > :11:30.cabinet is not even knowing what the NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They
:11:31. > :11:35.attack the disabled because they can't fight back. The Pinellas
:11:36. > :11:42.Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun and he was treated during a short
:11:43. > :11:45.life by the NHS. It's a fact many disabled people across the country
:11:46. > :11:49.including in my constituency have been directly affected by the
:11:50. > :11:52.bedroom tax. And ultimately, this Conservative led government,
:11:53. > :11:58.including the Lib Dems, will be held accountable by the politicians. You
:11:59. > :12:02.say that, the Prime Minister, who had a severely disabled son of. I
:12:03. > :12:09.you not ashamed about? I shadowed Iain Duncan Smith of five months
:12:10. > :12:12.also they don't have the excuses of seeing that saying nobody told them
:12:13. > :12:15.the consequences of the bedroom tax. They went into this with their eyes
:12:16. > :12:19.open. They knew about the hardship and difficulty. If they were
:12:20. > :12:22.one-bedroom properties available across the country for people to
:12:23. > :12:29.move into, their argument would be OK but they knew they were dealing
:12:30. > :12:32.with the most vulnerable people Did you sign off that part of the
:12:33. > :12:38.broadcast? Of course I stand by the fact of it. I wish David Cameron and
:12:39. > :12:42.Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to the disabled people of the country
:12:43. > :12:45.and the poorest people for the effects of the bedroom tax. I hope
:12:46. > :12:51.we get that apology between now and election. As someone who thinks
:12:52. > :12:57.integrity is important in politics, not ashamed of this kind of thing?
:12:58. > :13:00.It's important we scrutinise the policies of this government as well
:13:01. > :13:07.as adding a positive agenda for change. You want that you won't
:13:08. > :13:12.promise this is the last time we'll see such a negative press campaign?
:13:13. > :13:15.I don't think it is negative or personal to scrutinise the
:13:16. > :13:19.government. So we'll get more of this? I'm less interested in the
:13:20. > :13:25.background of the cabinet than their views. You call the upper-class
:13:26. > :13:28.twits. It's for the British public to make a judgement in terms of the
:13:29. > :13:36.British... That's how you depicted them. We are held in accountable for
:13:37. > :13:40.the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation, and our record they have to defend.
:13:41. > :13:44.One reason are so fearful in this election is actually because they
:13:45. > :13:49.know they have a poor record. Let's look at other part of the election
:13:50. > :13:55.campaign. This poster. Particularly digitally doing the rounds. On that
:13:56. > :14:02.shopping basket, can you tell us which items take the full 20% VAT?
:14:03. > :14:05.It's representative of household shopping, which includes items like
:14:06. > :14:17.cleaning products, and we know that food is not that trouble. People
:14:18. > :14:25.don't go to the supermarket and say this is -- vatable. So you are
:14:26. > :14:33.denying that ?450 extra is being paid? Yes, where'd you get that
:14:34. > :14:40.figure? For an average family to pay ?450 a year extra VAT, they would
:14:41. > :14:46.have to spend ?21,600 a year on vatable products at 20%. The average
:14:47. > :14:51.take-home pay is only 21,009. They have got to spend on all sorts of
:14:52. > :14:55.things which are zero VAT. So in addition to the items, has a range
:14:56. > :15:01.of products people face in terms of VAT. How could an average family of
:15:02. > :15:10.?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the pound a year on 20% vatable items?
:15:11. > :15:19.It's not an annual figure, is it? So what is it then? If it's an annual,
:15:20. > :15:21.what is it? The increased VAT in this parliament is calculated over
:15:22. > :15:30.the course of a Parliament. For the whole of the Parliament? And you're
:15:31. > :15:35.illustrated this with a shopping basket which almost has no VAT on it
:15:36. > :15:38.at all? People will be buying a weekly shop in the course of this
:15:39. > :15:43.Parliament every week. Did you sign off on this as well? Of course. It
:15:44. > :15:47.didn't dawn on you you're putting things on it which have no VAT? If
:15:48. > :15:53.you want to argue some people go to the shops and say these are vatable
:15:54. > :16:01.or not, I disagree. Even your rent cap announcement went wrong. You're
:16:02. > :16:11.working on the rent rises and it turns out it wasn't. It was a post
:16:12. > :16:14.your policy. It is the exception rather than the rule to have the
:16:15. > :16:18.position we have at the moment. In Northern Ireland we have seen the
:16:19. > :16:22.continued rise in terms of the rented sector but there is a
:16:23. > :16:30.widespread recognition that for those people in the rented sector,
:16:31. > :16:36.change is necessary. Are you coordinating this campaign? It seems
:16:37. > :16:45.accident prone. This is a party that has set the agenda more effectively
:16:46. > :16:49.than a Conservative party that said when David Cameron was elected he
:16:50. > :16:57.wasn't going to bang on about Europe. The day after the election
:16:58. > :17:04.we expect the Conservative party to be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of
:17:05. > :17:07.what we talk about and I think there is a clear contrast about a party
:17:08. > :17:13.talking about issues people care about, and a Conservative party
:17:14. > :17:19.talking about exclusively a referendum. Are you in charge of the
:17:20. > :17:25.campaign? I am coordinating the campaign is, yes. The expensive
:17:26. > :17:30.election guru you have hired, has he been involved in any of this? We
:17:31. > :17:35.have started our discussions with him. You are going to have to brief
:17:36. > :17:42.him about British politics because he doesn't know anything about it. I
:17:43. > :17:48.make no apology for hiring him. He has a lot of experience in winning
:17:49. > :17:54.tight elections and that is what we are expecting. If you are expecting
:17:55. > :18:01.us to say, they have passed and we have to hold them accountable, then
:18:02. > :18:04.I am sorry but we have a campaign that holds the Government and the
:18:05. > :18:15.Conservatives to account for what I think is a very hopeless record in
:18:16. > :18:18.government. Thank you. He leads a party with zero MPs but
:18:19. > :18:22.his media presence is huge. He's had an expenses scandal, but the public
:18:23. > :18:24.didn't seem to mind. He's got a privileged background but he's seen
:18:25. > :18:27.as an anti-establishment champion. Nothing seems to stick to him, not
:18:28. > :18:31.even eggs. I speak of course of Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a
:18:32. > :18:34.moment, but first Giles has been out on the campaign trail ahead of
:18:35. > :18:37.elections that could make or break the UKIP leader.
:18:38. > :18:40.Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at this stage of the Euro and local
:18:41. > :18:45.election campaign he is, like his party, in buoyant mood. They feel
:18:46. > :18:50.they are on the verge of what they see as causing an earthquake in
:18:51. > :18:55.British politics. Today Nigel is filling thousands seat venues and
:18:56. > :19:03.bigger. Not that there's much sign of that at this press launch. But
:19:04. > :19:06.it's a threat with serious money behind it, that they believe the
:19:07. > :19:09.media and the political elite just haven't realised yet, much less
:19:10. > :19:11.learned how to counter it. Not that it's all been plain sailing.
:19:12. > :19:14.Offensive comments from some candidates has not only seen UKIP
:19:15. > :19:20.labelled as racist, but necessitated a rally by the party to visibly and
:19:21. > :19:24.verbally challenge that. The offensive idiotic statements made by
:19:25. > :19:27.this handful of people have been lifted up and presented to the great
:19:28. > :19:33.British public as if they represent the view of this party, which they
:19:34. > :19:44.do not. They never have and they never will. APPLAUSE
:19:45. > :19:53.I don't care what you call us, but from this moment on, please do not
:19:54. > :20:02.call must trust a racist party. We are not a racist party.
:20:03. > :20:05.The need to say that is not just about the European and local
:20:06. > :20:08.elections even at that campaign launch it's clear UKIP's leader has
:20:09. > :20:10.set his sights firmly on the ultimate prize. I come from the
:20:11. > :20:14.south of England and I would not want to be seen as an opportunist
:20:15. > :20:19.heading to the north, north Norfolk or whatever it will be. I will make
:20:20. > :20:25.my mind up and stand in the general election for somewhere in Kent, East
:20:26. > :20:29.Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are
:20:30. > :20:38.still drilling down how the last fortnight of campaigning should go.
:20:39. > :20:41.They aren't taking any chances, and one imagines having offices above
:20:42. > :20:44.those of Max Clifford is a reminder how fragile built reputations can be
:20:45. > :20:48.of the bubble bursting. They want their reputation to be built on
:20:49. > :20:50.votes and they know anything but significant success on May 22nd and
:20:51. > :20:58.some seats in Westminster in 20 5 isn't going to be good enough. And
:20:59. > :21:01.after that, having sold yourselves as the honest outsiders, that stance
:21:02. > :21:05.is harder to maintain once your people are on the inside. And subtle
:21:06. > :21:11.changes from the past are already noticeable. The ordinary man of the
:21:12. > :21:14.people stance is still working. Characteristically outside a pub,
:21:15. > :21:20.Nigel Farage is glad handed by a customer. Two weeks to go, let's
:21:21. > :21:25.cause an upset. Wouldn't that be great? The only sign that such an
:21:26. > :21:37.interaction is different now is the ever presence of bodyguards who
:21:38. > :21:40.shadow his every move. Over lunch ahead of Question Time, a radio
:21:41. > :21:44.appearance, and then off to Scotland, I ask him if some of those
:21:45. > :21:47.minded to vote UKIP who see him as a man they'd be comfortable having a
:21:48. > :21:50.drink with are the sort of people he'd be entirely comfortable sitting
:21:51. > :21:52.down with. Every political party attracts support from across the
:21:53. > :22:00.spectrum and there will be some magnificent people who vote for us
:22:01. > :22:06.and some ne'er-do-wells. The one common thing about UKIP voters is
:22:07. > :22:10.that they are often not very political. And it's that people s
:22:11. > :22:12.army that if UKIP can get to a polling booth might just create that
:22:13. > :22:19.earthquake they want. Nigel Farage joins me now. When you
:22:20. > :22:22.decided not to stand at the new work by election coming said if you lost
:22:23. > :22:43.it that the bubble would have burst. What did you mean by that? I
:22:44. > :22:49.was asked at seven 20p -- at 7: 1pm if I would stand, I have decided by
:22:50. > :22:55.the next morning that I would not. I didn't know he was going to resign.
:22:56. > :22:59.You claim only a handful of UKIP candidates have ever said things
:23:00. > :23:08.that are either stupid or offensive, I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I d
:23:09. > :23:11.rather it was non-. But why have you chosen a candidate to fight this
:23:12. > :23:18.by-election that has said many things most people would regard as
:23:19. > :23:23.stupid or offensive? Roger is fighting this for us, someone of 70
:23:24. > :23:28.years of age who grew up with a strong Christian Bible background,
:23:29. > :23:32.in an age when homosexuality was imprisonable. He had a certain set
:23:33. > :23:36.of views which he maintained for many years which he now says he
:23:37. > :23:42.accepts the world has moved on and he is relaxed about it. The comments
:23:43. > :23:49.about homosexuality are not from the dark ages, they are from two or
:23:50. > :23:55.three years ago. From when he was a Conservative, yes, so will you be
:23:56. > :23:58.asking David Cameron that question? I have never seen a single comment
:23:59. > :24:04.from Roger that would be deemed to be offensive. Do you regard his
:24:05. > :24:09.comments on homosexuality as offensive? When he grew up,
:24:10. > :24:19.homosexuality was illegal in this country. But this was in 2012 but he
:24:20. > :24:29.said that. Most people have his age still feel uncomfortable about it --
:24:30. > :24:36.of his age. In 2012 he said, if two men can be married, why not three,
:24:37. > :24:41.why not a commune. Many people in this country are disconcerted by the
:24:42. > :24:44.change in the meaning of marriage and in a tolerant society we
:24:45. > :24:50.understand that some people have different views. But he has changed
:24:51. > :25:00.his views now in only two years He says he is more relaxed about it.
:25:01. > :25:04.Was he your candidate? He is a first-class campaigner who has had
:25:05. > :25:09.30 years in industry, he served in the European Parliament, he is a
:25:10. > :25:14.good candidate. This morning's papers suggest you are about to
:25:15. > :25:20.select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby, but she is on camera saying that, of
:25:21. > :25:23.immigrants, I just want to send a lot back. This is all very
:25:24. > :25:28.interesting, and we can talk about it, all we could talk about the fact
:25:29. > :25:33.that in 12 days we have a European election and every voter across the
:25:34. > :25:39.UK can vote on it and it is really interesting. Are you happy to pick a
:25:40. > :25:47.candidate that says of immigrants, I just want to send a lot back? I have
:25:48. > :25:53.seen the tape, it is a complete misquote and she says it in the
:25:54. > :25:59.context of illegal immigrants. I have seen the full quote and in the
:26:00. > :26:04.context it is not about illegal immigrants. Let's come onto the
:26:05. > :26:08.European campaign, you have used a company that employs Eastern
:26:09. > :26:13.European is to deliver leaflets in London and the Home Counties. Have
:26:14. > :26:19.we? I'm told that in Croydon one branch might have done that. Have
:26:20. > :26:24.you found some indigenous Brits to deliver leaflets in Europe? We have
:26:25. > :26:28.thousands joining the party every month and they are not all
:26:29. > :26:34.indigenous because what is interesting is that in today's
:26:35. > :26:45.opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib Dems and the Conservatives amongst
:26:46. > :27:00.the indigenous voting. We have not agreed a manifesto for
:27:01. > :27:08.the general election, we will do over the course of the summer. This
:27:09. > :27:11.is in your local election. We are having local elections in some part
:27:12. > :27:15.of the country but we are fighting a European election. It is impossible
:27:16. > :27:21.with the British media to have an intelligent debate on the European
:27:22. > :27:26.question. But as I say, we are also fighting the local elections too.
:27:27. > :27:32.You have promised these tax cuts, how much will they cost? I have met
:27:33. > :27:37.-- read the local election manifesto and it doesn't make those promises.
:27:38. > :27:42.We do talk about local services we do talk about the need to keep
:27:43. > :27:49.council tax down but we don't talk about income tax. Absolutely not. In
:27:50. > :27:56.local election campaigning you say you would restore cuts to policing,
:27:57. > :28:03.double prison places, restore cuts to front line NHS, spend more on
:28:04. > :28:07.roads, how much would that cost You are obviously reading different
:28:08. > :28:11.documents to me. We are voting for local councillors in district
:28:12. > :28:18.councils who have got little local budgets. Every party in a manifesto
:28:19. > :28:24.puts his aspirations in it. Have you read it? Of course I have, cover to
:28:25. > :28:31.cover, which is why I'm saying you are misquoting it. By the way, on
:28:32. > :28:38.the bubble bursting, you told that to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of
:28:39. > :28:43.British laws are now made in the European Union. Now AstraZeneca is
:28:44. > :28:48.potentially going to be taken over by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to
:28:49. > :28:52.show the public that that decision cannot be taken here but by an
:28:53. > :29:00.elected European commissioner, and we sit and argue about what is in or
:29:01. > :29:10.not in the local election manifesto. It is my job, but let me come on to
:29:11. > :29:17.AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a British government should stop the
:29:18. > :29:26.takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot. Can we please get this clear. I sat
:29:27. > :29:32.next to Chuka Umunna the other day at question time and he said what
:29:33. > :29:36.could and couldn't be done. He said I am being studiously neutral, and
:29:37. > :29:43.the reason is we don't have this power. That is what the European
:29:44. > :29:55.elections is about. Should France have the takeover of the food
:29:56. > :30:03.company Danan? We seem to do things to the Nth degree and nobody else
:30:04. > :30:08.does, perhaps because we have this culture and we obey it. In your
:30:09. > :30:16.view, you don't think Pfizer should be able to take over AstraZeneca?
:30:17. > :30:21.There is some good science within AstraZeneca which is in danger of
:30:22. > :30:27.being asset stripped and lost. Because it is run by a Swede and a
:30:28. > :30:33.Frenchman and most of its employees are overseas. I understand that but
:30:34. > :30:36.there are still some good science being produced here. What did you
:30:37. > :30:42.think of the Prime Minister saying he would not form a government after
:30:43. > :30:50.the election unless he was able to have a referendum in 2017? I sat
:30:51. > :30:55.here talking to you and you said to me that David Cameron had given a
:30:56. > :30:57.cast-iron guarantee that if David Cameron becomes Prime Minister he
:30:58. > :31:03.will have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, but he didn't deliver on
:31:04. > :31:07.that. He knows that people struggle to believe the renegotiation is
:31:08. > :31:12.worth a row of beans. He is saying he will not form a government unless
:31:13. > :31:16.he can go forward with the referendum. I know he is desperately
:31:17. > :31:20.trying to pretend to be Eurosceptic whilst at the same time saying he
:31:21. > :31:25.will campaign for Britain to remain in. In a sense, that is what this
:31:26. > :31:28.election is about. We have three traditional parties, all of whom
:31:29. > :31:32.passionately believe in the continued membership of the European
:31:33. > :31:36.Union and we have UKIP saying we want trade and cooperation but there
:31:37. > :31:44.is a bigger and better world out there. You are now travelling with I
:31:45. > :31:52.think four bodyguards, has this affected you and your family life? I
:31:53. > :31:56.can't stand it. I've always wondered about the place and on my own thing.
:31:57. > :32:00.Sadly we have a couple of organisations out there headed up by
:32:01. > :32:03.senior Labour Party figures who purport to be against fascism and
:32:04. > :32:08.extremism, who received funding from the Department of communities, from
:32:09. > :32:12.the trade unions, who have acted in a violent wait more than once. You
:32:13. > :32:18.are saying the Labour Party is behind the threats? No, I said a
:32:19. > :32:21.taxpayer funded, trade union funded and headed by senior Labour Party
:32:22. > :32:25.figures, and I'm happy for them to come to my meetings and have an
:32:26. > :32:29.itinerant with me, but it's not so much fun when there are banging you
:32:30. > :32:34.over the head. I is still keen to be an MP? Yes, what UKIP will then do
:32:35. > :32:39.is target before the general election next year for the one life
:32:40. > :32:45.be easier if you just went to the Lords? That's the last thing I want
:32:46. > :32:50.to do. There's an awful lot to do. Most of all, I will not rest until
:32:51. > :32:52.we are free from political union and government from Brussels. Nigel
:32:53. > :32:55.Farage, thank you for being with us. It's just gone 11.30am. You're
:32:56. > :32:58.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who
:32:59. > :33:01.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20
:33:02. > :33:12.a Welcome to Sunday Politics South. big stories of the week. First
:33:13. > :33:15.a Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My name's Peter Henley. We've got
:33:16. > :33:22.rather a different programmd for you today. We're looking at the local
:33:23. > :33:25.elections, which are just 10 days away now, and we've invited in
:33:26. > :33:28.politicians from the three parties which run local authorities in our
:33:29. > :33:30.region. Paul Harvey is a Labour councillor from Basingstoke and
:33:31. > :33:33.Deane Borough Council, Donn` Jones is the leader of the Conservative
:33:34. > :33:36.group on Portsmouth City Cotncil and Keith House is the Liberal Democrat
:33:37. > :33:39.leader of Eastleigh Borough Council. And the deal is that they'rd here to
:33:40. > :33:41.talk about their party's eldctoral prospects Thursday week, not to
:33:42. > :33:50.electioneer about their indhvidual councils. Councillors electdd in
:33:51. > :33:58.2010 with their seats at st`ke. What are Labour working on? Doorstep
:33:59. > :34:05.action, talking to as many people as we can. The key point coming across
:34:06. > :34:08.for us, public transport, housing. The pitch were making on rented
:34:09. > :34:31.housing in particular strikds a chord in the south`east. Thd economy
:34:32. > :34:35.is improving. Is all about dconomy? There are local issues that
:34:36. > :34:41.actually, what the Conservatives are focused on is money and how well off
:34:42. > :34:46.people are in their pockets and ensuring that taxation is going
:34:47. > :34:53.down, public services are protected, like public health
:34:54. > :34:57.spending, and the Conservathves in the region are focused on m`king
:34:58. > :35:03.sure that we stand up for those people to go out and work, pay taxes
:35:04. > :35:06.and ensure they are getting something back from the comlunity in
:35:07. > :35:16.which they live. I am the d`ughter of a bricklayer. I am a classic
:35:17. > :35:21.example of a conservative. Hn 2 10, these councillors were separate
:35:22. > :35:30.They were Lib Dems in a verx different way. Are you trying to
:35:31. > :35:40.draw apart from the Conserv`tives? In local government, we do not stand
:35:41. > :35:47.with the Conservatives. Where we are running councils, we are st`nding on
:35:48. > :35:51.our record of success. We are standing on our record of holding
:35:52. > :35:55.parties to account, making progress in the future and preparing for the
:35:56. > :36:00.general election as well. Btt Liberal Democrats are saying,
:36:01. > :36:05.surely, we have nothing to do with that Nick Clegg? Of course we are in
:36:06. > :36:12.government and we have a grdat record in government, too. Three
:36:13. > :36:18.items in our manifesto promhses Pensions, education, taking millions
:36:19. > :36:27.of people out of income tax, those are Liberal Democrat achievdments in
:36:28. > :36:32.government. Liberal Democrats have the best record in the country of
:36:33. > :36:38.keeping taxation down. That's not true! Look at our own region. We
:36:39. > :36:43.have that council tax incre`ses for two out of the last three ydars in
:36:44. > :36:49.Portsmouth. Even though a Conservative Secretary of State has
:36:50. > :36:58.put forward the freeze grants, that was not taken advantage of. Localism
:36:59. > :37:02.is the answer but if we look at the country as a whole, Liberal Democrat
:37:03. > :37:13.councils have a better record of holding council tax town burn either
:37:14. > :37:18.Conservatives all labour. You are in government and the cost of living
:37:19. > :37:24.crisis people are suffering, through fuel bills and cuts to local
:37:25. > :37:29.governments, those have slashed services in social care, supporting
:37:30. > :37:34.people, public transport, and both of you are responsible for that
:37:35. > :37:50.That is something that does concern voters. A Labour alternativd cares
:37:51. > :37:55.about people. Neither of yot can escape the fact you are responsible
:37:56. > :38:03.for that in government. This is the Labour copout, to be fair. Lake ``
:38:04. > :38:14.many local councils have avoided cuts. Many councils have cut things
:38:15. > :38:20.to make it look like they h`ve got to cut deeper than they need to He
:38:21. > :38:26.is saying what he has just said about the cost of living crhsis in
:38:27. > :38:30.the UK is like a mother givhng her child Swedes 365 days of"
:38:31. > :38:42.distancing, why are my child's teeth falling out? `` days a year. The
:38:43. > :38:46.cost of living crisis is because the Labour Party failed to get ` grip of
:38:47. > :38:52.the balance sheet for ten ydars in government, and that's why `
:38:53. > :38:57.Conservative and Liberal co`lition government have had to make tough
:38:58. > :39:02.decisions and tough cuts. Btt actually, to make sure the balance
:39:03. > :39:05.sheet is healthy for generations are people going forward. If we had done
:39:06. > :39:11.it your way, the country wotld be bankrupt and we would have lost our
:39:12. > :39:14.credit rating. It would probably be minus now. That would have `
:39:15. > :39:24.knock`on effect for every btsiness, borrow and savour in this country.
:39:25. > :39:29.The issue is they are cutting to the bone now. In Hampshire county
:39:30. > :39:38.council, we're talking about ?1 5 million cuts to public transport.
:39:39. > :39:45.There have been protests about services, but in local government, a
:39:46. > :39:50.lot of efficiency has been found. Talk to people in housing arrears,
:39:51. > :39:55.facing eviction, in the food banks because they can't afford to heat
:39:56. > :40:01.their homes because of fuel poverty, talk to people in real crishs. You
:40:02. > :40:03.can't and shouldn't deny it. There is a genuine issue in terms of
:40:04. > :40:10.inequality that we are seeing because of the policies of the
:40:11. > :40:15.coalition. There have been huge claims made by the Liberal Democrats
:40:16. > :40:25.about how they have helped people and yet, it isn't found. Yes and no.
:40:26. > :40:33.You have been popping up wh`t has been done as a coalition government.
:40:34. > :40:41.Where I sit in Hampshire, IC cuts but I believe are the wrong way of
:40:42. > :40:45.managing public sector finance. I have labelled them the Consdrvative
:40:46. > :40:49.cuts of choice because they have decided to hit vulnerable pdople,
:40:50. > :41:01.mainly because vulnerable pdople's electro` voice is not as lotd. ``
:41:02. > :41:05.electoral voice. The bedrool taxes is not a tax. It's a reducthon in
:41:06. > :41:09.benefits. He is talking abott the crisis of people who are behng
:41:10. > :41:12.forced to move out of their home or have a massive loss of incole
:41:13. > :41:20.because they are living in ` three`bedroom council house and
:41:21. > :41:26.their children have moved ott. What I would say to him, he needs to look
:41:27. > :41:30.at the crisis of the family who have got three small children under the
:41:31. > :41:34.age of five who are living hn a one`bedroom flat that is dalp
:41:35. > :41:40.because they are overcrowded and I would say, look at their crhsis Why
:41:41. > :41:45.have we brought in this bedroom tax? Because we have a housing crisis.
:41:46. > :41:50.And look at the lack of affordable housing and building and sed people
:41:51. > :41:55.who cannot get on the ladder, who cannot get a home. When you talk
:41:56. > :41:59.about the bedroom tax, let's talk about the two thirds of people who
:42:00. > :42:05.are disabled hit by the bedroom tax to have no option. I have a case of
:42:06. > :42:11.a disabled couple who need two bedrooms or their equipment and they
:42:12. > :42:16.are trapped. They have got to reduce to a one bed flat. They can't put
:42:17. > :42:24.the equipment in one`bedrool. That is an exception where you h`ve
:42:25. > :42:28.overridden them. The spare room subsidy is right but the pr`ctice
:42:29. > :42:34.has caused the difficulty. The policy should have been implemented
:42:35. > :42:39.more sympathetically. Peopld with disabilities are a classic dxample.
:42:40. > :42:47.That is something the government will get to, hopefully. There is a
:42:48. > :42:49.great deal at stake. There are around 50 district
:42:50. > :42:52.councils, county councils or unitary authorities in our region, `nd that
:42:53. > :42:55.doesn't include all the parhsh councils. That's a whole lot of
:42:56. > :42:58.local government. Is it maybe too much? In tough economic timds, when
:42:59. > :43:01.all councils are looking to save money, could we maybe save `
:43:02. > :43:05.substantial amount by doing away with some councils and, shock
:43:06. > :43:07.horror, councillors? Our Dorset political reporter, Tristan Pascoe,
:43:08. > :43:12.has been considering who might be suitable for the chop.
:43:13. > :43:15.Because of the financial crhsis and economic downturn, councils have
:43:16. > :43:21.seen huge cuts in their funding from government. Many are now sh`ring
:43:22. > :43:23.services and merging departlents. This stretch of coastline rdally
:43:24. > :43:27.typifies the arguments for reducing bureaucracy locally. From hdre, you
:43:28. > :43:30.can see Christchurch, Bourndmouth, Poole and Purbeck to the West, each
:43:31. > :43:37.with their own distinct identities, but each with their own sep`rate
:43:38. > :43:39.authorities. One group in Dorset is calling for a brand`new unitary
:43:40. > :43:45.authority from Bournemouth, Poole and Christchurch. We could see a
:43:46. > :43:48.reduction in the number of councillors, for example, from
:43:49. > :43:50.around 125 to about 54, which is the size of Bristol, with all the
:43:51. > :43:56.benefits of promoting, internationally, a major
:43:57. > :43:59.conurbation. To actually have one management is going to save, we
:44:00. > :44:02.believe, quite a lot of mondy, several million in the year one
:44:03. > :44:12.Right. Pay attention. This is Dorset. Currently, `ll
:44:13. > :44:14.councils are signed up to the Dorset Waste Partnership, with the
:44:15. > :44:17.exception of the two unitarx authorities in Bournemouth `nd
:44:18. > :44:19.Poole. Still with me? Good. In the east of the county, Christchurch
:44:20. > :44:23.Borough Council are currently involved in a partnership whth East
:44:24. > :44:27.Dorset District Council. Thdy also share a joint chief executive.
:44:28. > :44:29.They're involved in the Stotr Valley Partnership, for revenues and
:44:30. > :44:35.benefits, with North Dorset District Council, soon to be joined by the
:44:36. > :44:38.borough of Poole. Wake up at the back! In the west of the cotnty
:44:39. > :44:40.West Dorset District Council and Weymouth and Portland Borough
:44:41. > :44:42.Council currently share manx services and there are ongohng
:44:43. > :44:49.discussions to bring North Dorset District Council into a tripartite
:44:50. > :44:52.system. That's an awful lot of sharing of services. So why not cut
:44:53. > :44:54.out the middleman altogether, the districts, and have a singld unitary
:44:55. > :45:03.for Dorset? District councillors in West Dorset
:45:04. > :45:05.get a minimum of ?4,000 each as their council allowance. Thdre are
:45:06. > :45:08.48 of them. That's more district councillors than there are county
:45:09. > :45:11.councillors, of which there are only 45. I would rather have a shngle,
:45:12. > :45:14.unitary, rural authority th`t saves money but packs a punch in the
:45:15. > :45:18.battle with the conurbation which, at the moment, takes most of the
:45:19. > :45:26.resources that are availabld in this county. The middle tier is ` huge
:45:27. > :45:32.waste of money. Shows just how money... How much money really has
:45:33. > :45:34.been wasted over many, many years. With that sort of level of
:45:35. > :45:38.representation, makes me wonder what they all do, to be honest whth you.
:45:39. > :45:41.Should there be one authority for all Dorset? It would probably make
:45:42. > :45:44.more sense but that's not rdally going to happen any time soon, I
:45:45. > :45:47.wouldn't have thought. I thhnk it would be the way forward, as other
:45:48. > :45:51.authorities are doing as well across the land. I don't expect thd left
:45:52. > :45:57.hand what the right hand's doing. So, the people are up for it. What
:45:58. > :46:00.about the county council le`der The current coalition made it clear
:46:01. > :46:03.when they came to power in 2010 there would be no local govdrnment
:46:04. > :46:05.reorganisation. But here in Dorchester, you've got 20 town
:46:06. > :46:14.councillors, 48 district cotncillors and 45 county councillors. That s
:46:15. > :46:19.too many, isn't it? It is always a temptation to think it is a panacea
:46:20. > :46:22.for change by reducing the number of members. All those members `re
:46:23. > :46:28.working hard for their commtnities and doing it because they to. We
:46:29. > :46:34.shouldn't undervalue what they do. The biggest cost of any council is
:46:35. > :46:39.the service it delivers. But potentially there are huge savings
:46:40. > :46:44.to be made. In Wiltshire, fhve years ago, they did exactly that. They
:46:45. > :46:52.reduce the number of councillors from more than 250 down to 88. They
:46:53. > :46:56.also reduce their property portfolio from 98 council buildings to three,
:46:57. > :47:03.including this new hub in S`lisbury, and saved a tonne of cash in the
:47:04. > :47:13.process. We have saved ?100 million over four years. It was difficult.
:47:14. > :47:21.But many people in Wiltshird only thought there was one counchl in the
:47:22. > :47:26.beginning. And people said to us, we want a council that delivers us good
:47:27. > :47:30.services are good value for money. But despite the obvious fin`ncial
:47:31. > :47:43.benefits, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
:47:44. > :47:48.People's perceptions of councils, they don't realise they provide
:47:49. > :48:04.services. Local government having three tiers can be confusing for the
:48:05. > :48:11.public. It's important for councillors who do a lot of work in
:48:12. > :48:15.the community. There is a great deal of talk back efficiency but also
:48:16. > :48:23.representation and making stre people's voices are heard. That s
:48:24. > :48:27.the real benefit of the smaller tier councils. A group of people in the
:48:28. > :48:33.community were able to choose what they want to take the most local
:48:34. > :48:40.decisions. We also have this European election. It's hugd. Is
:48:41. > :48:47.UKIP going to make a differdnce to Labour? The way the Labour vote is
:48:48. > :48:58.holding up across the south`east, it's holding up strongly. Btt UKIP
:48:59. > :49:03.has this message of anti`politics. It is trying to tap into solething
:49:04. > :49:06.that is relating to how people feel about politics, but when yot talk
:49:07. > :49:14.about local councillors and what they do on the ground, that such an
:49:15. > :49:17.important part of their rold. Hampshire is so remote from
:49:18. > :49:22.Basingstoke because it is in Winchester. You feel remote, so who
:49:23. > :49:28.is your representative in Winchester? There is a real issue of
:49:29. > :49:36.remoteness. When it comes to UKIP, they are not there. They must take
:49:37. > :49:39.votes from conservatives. Originally, they were a right of
:49:40. > :49:48.centre party, but now, they are appealing to everybody. I do believe
:49:49. > :49:53.they are taking votes across the board. Where you have got trade
:49:54. > :50:03.unions against the cuts, a left of centre original party. They are big
:50:04. > :50:09.in Oxford but don't exist in most parts of the south`east. Thdy are a
:50:10. > :50:13.great protest party. They are tending to take votes from other
:50:14. > :50:20.parties. Labour and Conserv`tives, last year, we saw those votds
:50:21. > :50:24.collapse. However, a bubble is about to burst.
:50:25. > :50:27.Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 0
:50:28. > :50:40.seconds, and this week, it's a jungle out there.
:50:41. > :50:50.The personal details of 18,000 people in Berkshire were
:50:51. > :50:52.accidentally released into the wild. Wokingham council sold them after
:50:53. > :50:58.what they said was a software glitch. Residents may find they get
:50:59. > :51:05.junk mail that they weren't expecting to get through thd post.
:51:06. > :51:13.No apology from water for the shooting of migratory birds,
:51:14. > :51:20.discussed by MPs this week. Our turtledoves have declined bx 95
:51:21. > :51:24.since 1970. Flocking to Bournemouth, though
:51:25. > :51:28.international students. Language schools reported a 30% incrdase in
:51:29. > :51:38.places. Finally, our snappy politichan
:51:39. > :51:51.feature went viral. This twdet went wild on the Internet.
:51:52. > :51:58.A great shot! Is there anything new on the campaign trail? Talkhng to
:51:59. > :52:02.people. It's true. My best experience was I walked round the
:52:03. > :52:06.corner from my door and this woman runs at an herbage armours. She
:52:07. > :52:19.said, I wanted to tell you how I will vote. `` runs out in hdr
:52:20. > :52:25.pyjamas. One of my candidatds, Frank Jonas, he has got a big motorbike
:52:26. > :52:35.and he has taken to riding `round Portsmouth on his motorbike would
:52:36. > :52:43.vote Frank on the back. Sochal media is a big thing, so Facebook,
:52:44. > :52:48.Twitter, taking photographs of the streets you have just canvassed
:52:49. > :52:51.Don't steal the idea! That's the Sunday Politics hn the
:52:52. > :52:54.South. Thanks to my guests, Paul Harvey, Donna Jones and Keith House.
:52:55. > :52:57.Next week, we'll be grilling some of the politicians who'd like to
:52:58. > :53:00.represent us in Brussels. If you bump into the PM or any othdr
:53:01. > :53:01.politician, don't forget to tweet it to #snapapolitician, but for now,
:53:02. > :53:04.it's back to Andrew. the website now. Now it is back to
:53:05. > :53:22.you, Andrew. Welcome back, let's go straight to
:53:23. > :53:27.our panel. What did you make of Mr Alexander's defence of the Labour
:53:28. > :53:30.party election broadcast? It is difficult for them because they
:53:31. > :53:34.started by saying they were not going to do negative campaigning and
:53:35. > :53:42.they have thrown that away for an advert which is funny but crude in
:53:43. > :53:49.the class war sense. He didn't look thrilled to be defending it. There
:53:50. > :53:53.is a page in Tony Blair's memoirs talking about negative campaigning,
:53:54. > :53:58.and he says that anything too extreme turns off the average voter
:53:59. > :54:10.so his line of attack on Hague was funny jokes but... I think this
:54:11. > :54:17.failed the Blair test, it was too vicious. If your strategy is to
:54:18. > :54:21.shore up your car vote, that advert was genius. If your strategy is to
:54:22. > :54:26.reach out to a broader number of voters, Middle Britain, then that
:54:27. > :54:30.advert was a complete disaster. It looks like there is a lot of
:54:31. > :54:42.negativity and smears all round in the next year. That definitely looks
:54:43. > :55:01.the way we are going. They will be essentially trying to re-run by --
:55:02. > :55:06.the American election. I am slightly puzzled why we cannot have our own
:55:07. > :55:11.election gurus who live here and understand the country. I should
:55:12. > :55:16.point out that the ?450 extra VAT that was claimed in that Labour
:55:17. > :55:23.poster, both Ed Balls and the Labour Treasury team have said that is ?450
:55:24. > :55:28.per year. Nonsense the VAT rise one year. I should also point out that
:55:29. > :55:36.Nigel Farage said to Norman Smith, the BBC is always reliable Norman
:55:37. > :55:40.Smith that if you run in Newark and lost the bubble would burst. I
:55:41. > :55:45.should also point out that although a number of the tax rises I
:55:46. > :55:50.mentioned on council tax, minimum wage tax and some other things that
:55:51. > :55:56.UKIP wants to cuts, a couple of these are in the local manifesto but
:55:57. > :56:03.several are not. They are on the UKIP website, which is still current
:56:04. > :56:08.and dated 2014. We like to make sure we are absolutely right. Let's talk
:56:09. > :56:13.about Nick Clegg and Michael Gove and the latest spat. Let me show you
:56:14. > :56:22.this headline in the Observer this morning. From both the Independent,
:56:23. > :56:33.he called him a zealot, lunatic is of -- another word. Do we take this
:56:34. > :56:38.seriously? It hinges on this question of what counts as an area
:56:39. > :56:42.of need in education. The Lib Dems say an area of need is one where
:56:43. > :56:47.there are not enough school places to meet local demand. He says it can
:56:48. > :56:51.also be a place where there are surplus places but that is for a
:56:52. > :57:03.reason. Local places don't trust those schools to do a good job for
:57:04. > :57:09.their kids. It surprises me because there isn't a yawning distance
:57:10. > :57:14.between David Laws and Michael Gove. David Laws has found himself between
:57:15. > :57:18.a rock and a hard place because I asked -- as I understand it most Lib
:57:19. > :57:22.Dems don't like the free schools but Mr laws was quite sympathetic to it
:57:23. > :57:29.and he is now having to this respect it. When they asked people who are
:57:30. > :57:34.the most hated politicians in a poll were this week, Michael Gove is off
:57:35. > :57:48.the charts, far above David Cameron or George Osborne. This is
:57:49. > :57:51.tit-for-tat war. The Liberal Democrats believe Michael Gove had a
:57:52. > :57:55.hand in leaking the document that showed Nick Clegg was opposing the
:57:56. > :58:00.tougher Chris Grayling position on knife crime. They are saying there
:58:01. > :58:05.were Cabinet ministers who never usually attend the sub Cabinet
:58:06. > :58:09.meeting, they turned up and the document is leaked so what we are
:58:10. > :58:14.getting is tit for tat on that. It is inevitable but it is not good for
:58:15. > :58:20.either side of the Coalition. Voters will look at it and say it is
:58:21. > :58:31.politics of the playground. I read in the Mail on Sunday this morning
:58:32. > :58:35.that some Tory insiders are accusing Lib Dems of spreading rumours about
:58:36. > :58:43.the camera in marriage. The rebuttals of education story is that
:58:44. > :58:52.the free school meals is sucking money away. I always thought they
:58:53. > :58:58.would work together without fuss and yet it has been more the source of
:58:59. > :59:04.disagreement then I would have expected a couple of years ago. Is
:59:05. > :59:11.it serious? It is serious obviously, using that language, but is it fatal
:59:12. > :59:13.for the Coalition? I think it is a road bump because I don't think
:59:14. > :59:18.anybody wants to dissolve the Coalition. It is a challenge for
:59:19. > :59:22.Labour because where do they stand on the free schools? They invented
:59:23. > :59:26.the Academy programme so it is difficult for them to take a
:59:27. > :59:30.hands-off approach at this stage. There was a danger for Michael Gove
:59:31. > :59:33.that he looks ideological but the danger for the Liberal Democrats is
:59:34. > :59:37.that they are breaking the rules for the Coalition they said that they
:59:38. > :59:43.wouldn't break which is that they looked like opposition in
:59:44. > :59:50.government. Is Michael Gove's position safe? Very safe. If he
:59:51. > :59:56.moves in a reshuffle that will be to a a job. That's all for today. The
:59:57. > :59:59.Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at lunchtime from Tuesday
:00:00. > :00:02.onwards. I'll be back here on BBC One at 11am next week. Remember if
:00:03. > :00:08.it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.