:00:37. > :00:42.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:43. > :00:47.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:48. > :00:53.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live
:00:58. > :01:01.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:02. > :01:04.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:05. > :01:14.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:15. > :01:16.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:17. > :01:21.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:22. > :01:26.In the South: success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:27. > :01:28.UKIP advancing everywhere, except in Oxfordshire.
:01:29. > :01:35.Just why did that one countx resist the rise of the Kippdrs?
:01:36. > :01:43.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:44. > :01:46.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:47. > :01:49.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:50. > :01:51.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:52. > :01:56.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:57. > :01:59.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:02:00. > :02:03.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:04. > :02:05.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:06. > :02:12.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:13. > :02:16.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham
:02:17. > :02:19.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:20. > :02:25.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:26. > :02:28.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:29. > :02:32.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:33. > :02:34.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:35. > :02:37."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:38. > :02:44.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:45. > :02:51.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:52. > :02:54.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:55. > :02:59.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning
:03:00. > :03:05.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:06. > :03:07.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:08. > :03:10.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:11. > :03:12.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:13. > :03:18.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:19. > :03:24.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s
:03:25. > :03:43.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:44. > :03:53.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:54. > :04:00.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:01. > :04:07.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:08. > :04:12.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:13. > :04:23.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:24. > :04:26.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:27. > :04:31.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:32. > :04:38.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:39. > :04:43.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:44. > :04:49.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:50. > :04:54.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:55. > :04:59.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:05:00. > :05:04.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:05. > :05:10.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:11. > :05:16.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:17. > :05:22.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:23. > :05:26.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:27. > :05:31.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:32. > :05:36.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:37. > :05:39.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:40. > :05:45.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:46. > :05:50.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:51. > :05:55.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:56. > :06:04.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:05. > :06:13.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:14. > :06:18.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:19. > :06:25.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:26. > :06:29.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:30. > :06:34.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:35. > :06:40.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:41. > :06:44.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:45. > :06:50.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:51. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:57.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:58. > :07:03.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:04. > :07:08.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:09. > :07:12.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed
:07:13. > :07:19.those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:20. > :07:23.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:24. > :07:27.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11
:07:28. > :07:29.when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists
:07:30. > :07:45.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:46. > :07:51.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:52. > :07:54.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:55. > :08:04.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:05. > :08:09.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:10. > :08:12.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:13. > :08:15.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:16. > :08:22.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:23. > :08:26.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:27. > :08:30.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:31. > :08:35.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:36. > :08:39.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:40. > :08:44.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:45. > :08:48.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:49. > :08:52.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:53. > :09:03.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:04. > :09:07.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:08. > :09:12.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:13. > :09:16.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:17. > :09:21.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:22. > :09:25.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:26. > :09:32.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:33. > :09:37.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:38. > :09:42.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:43. > :09:49.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:50. > :09:55.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling
:09:56. > :09:59.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:10:00. > :10:03.equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of
:10:04. > :10:08.gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be
:10:09. > :10:14.tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We
:10:15. > :10:20.do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years
:10:21. > :10:25.ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like
:10:26. > :10:31.tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do
:10:32. > :10:36.think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to
:10:37. > :10:41.inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to
:10:42. > :10:48.be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy
:10:49. > :10:52.sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning
:10:53. > :10:55.as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of
:10:56. > :10:59.Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools
:11:00. > :11:02.were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They
:11:03. > :11:07.were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an
:11:08. > :11:11.academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within
:11:12. > :11:15.Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school
:11:16. > :11:24.standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we
:11:25. > :11:31.get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking
:11:32. > :11:35.to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme
:11:36. > :11:44.which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and
:11:45. > :11:52.fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a
:11:53. > :11:57.desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an
:11:58. > :12:09.increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr
:12:10. > :12:18.Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for
:12:19. > :12:23.gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in
:12:24. > :12:27.since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We
:12:28. > :12:35.note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected
:12:36. > :12:42.head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and
:12:43. > :12:45.what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about
:12:46. > :12:49.fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of
:12:50. > :12:56.schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You
:12:57. > :13:05.mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence
:13:06. > :13:08.for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group
:13:09. > :13:15.dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about
:13:16. > :13:19.schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in
:13:20. > :13:26.Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of
:13:27. > :13:30.multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic
:13:31. > :13:33.education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this
:13:34. > :13:38.morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,
:13:39. > :13:49.the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.
:13:50. > :13:52.In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools
:13:53. > :13:57.and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed
:13:58. > :14:02.this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and
:14:03. > :14:07.this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you
:14:08. > :14:10.fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get
:14:11. > :14:19.together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There
:14:20. > :14:23.are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city
:14:24. > :14:28.council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning
:14:29. > :14:32.have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in
:14:33. > :14:36.schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have
:14:37. > :14:40.a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for
:14:41. > :14:44.four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to
:14:45. > :14:49.account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils
:14:50. > :14:52.in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young
:14:53. > :14:58.people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do
:14:59. > :15:04.you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that
:15:05. > :15:12.Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was
:15:13. > :15:17.building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We
:15:18. > :15:20.have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard
:15:21. > :15:25.Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate
:15:26. > :15:29.about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,
:15:30. > :15:37.the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do
:15:38. > :15:39.to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must
:15:40. > :15:48.with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on
:15:49. > :15:51.stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the
:15:52. > :15:54.most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -
:15:55. > :15:57.from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described
:15:58. > :16:04.Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the
:16:05. > :16:07.problems of the next five years . But with the German Chancellor
:16:08. > :16:10.Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that
:16:11. > :16:13.Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7
:16:14. > :16:23.summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people
:16:24. > :16:27.running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change
:16:28. > :16:32.and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads
:16:33. > :16:36.of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what
:16:37. > :16:41.I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed
:16:42. > :16:44.in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering
:16:45. > :16:48.that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away
:16:49. > :16:50.from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.
:16:51. > :16:53.We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is
:16:54. > :16:56.a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.
:16:57. > :17:01.He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.
:17:02. > :17:04.And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin
:17:05. > :17:08.Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives
:17:09. > :17:16.and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.
:17:17. > :17:24.The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new
:17:25. > :17:31.Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out
:17:32. > :17:37.gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to
:17:38. > :17:44.have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a
:17:45. > :17:48.high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next
:17:49. > :17:54.three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the
:17:55. > :17:58.president of the European Council after the proposal of the European
:17:59. > :18:03.Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in
:18:04. > :18:11.the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr
:18:12. > :18:15.Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going
:18:16. > :18:23.to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us
:18:24. > :18:28.one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine
:18:29. > :18:34.Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have
:18:35. > :18:41.a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need
:18:42. > :18:46.radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave
:18:47. > :18:51.us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in
:18:52. > :18:55.public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks
:18:56. > :19:00.campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the
:19:01. > :19:03.European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent
:19:04. > :19:07.a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status
:19:08. > :19:13.quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?
:19:14. > :19:24.First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks
:19:25. > :19:30.against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man
:19:31. > :19:36.who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro
:19:37. > :19:39.group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the
:19:40. > :19:43.financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible
:19:44. > :19:48.financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who
:19:49. > :19:53.works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in
:19:54. > :19:57.Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But
:19:58. > :20:02.we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of
:20:03. > :20:06.this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the
:20:07. > :20:09.winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs
:20:10. > :20:15.LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority
:20:16. > :20:22.in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It
:20:23. > :20:29.is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament
:20:30. > :20:33.has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by
:20:34. > :20:34.majority in the light of the European elections after
:20:35. > :20:39.consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a
:20:40. > :20:46.candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a
:20:47. > :20:49.majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the
:20:50. > :20:53.Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.
:20:54. > :20:58.I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European
:20:59. > :21:02.elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the
:21:03. > :21:06.elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats
:21:07. > :21:10.in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking
:21:11. > :21:12.part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the
:21:13. > :21:18.United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German
:21:19. > :21:25.socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a
:21:26. > :21:28.nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with
:21:29. > :21:31.hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a
:21:32. > :21:34.democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to
:21:35. > :21:52.take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if
:21:53. > :21:55.I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of
:21:56. > :22:04.the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to
:22:05. > :22:07.Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives
:22:08. > :22:12.have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they
:22:13. > :22:16.have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form
:22:17. > :22:23.of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr
:22:24. > :22:27.Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU
:22:28. > :22:32.exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we
:22:33. > :22:35.want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious
:22:36. > :22:41.reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to
:22:42. > :22:47.vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,
:22:48. > :22:52.somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We
:22:53. > :22:55.need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the
:22:56. > :22:58.European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of
:22:59. > :23:02.federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in
:23:03. > :23:08.Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to
:23:09. > :23:14.take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the
:23:15. > :23:20.publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.
:23:21. > :23:26.We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If
:23:27. > :23:30.enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in
:23:31. > :23:37.the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,
:23:38. > :23:42.would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected
:23:43. > :23:46.by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the
:23:47. > :23:49.European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted
:23:50. > :23:53.pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist
:23:54. > :24:05.thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe
:24:06. > :24:11.which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not
:24:12. > :24:15.want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state
:24:16. > :24:18.This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better
:24:19. > :24:23.governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to
:24:24. > :24:28.become better, to change our programme in that question. That
:24:29. > :24:35.should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for
:24:36. > :24:37.that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to
:24:38. > :24:43.be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are
:24:44. > :24:49.matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent
:24:50. > :24:57.candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British
:24:58. > :25:01.commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election
:25:02. > :25:07.-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.
:25:08. > :25:10.Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European
:25:11. > :25:16.They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs
:25:17. > :25:19.and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.
:25:20. > :25:22.What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body
:25:23. > :25:25.which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission
:25:26. > :25:38.This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They
:25:39. > :25:44.didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes
:25:45. > :25:48.They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once
:25:49. > :26:07.in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,
:26:08. > :26:15.drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they
:26:16. > :26:18.are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the
:26:19. > :26:24.party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and
:26:25. > :26:29.the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting
:26:30. > :26:33.such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election
:26:34. > :26:39.under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was
:26:40. > :26:46.invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.
:26:47. > :26:50.When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most
:26:51. > :26:53.seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated
:26:54. > :27:03.using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --
:27:04. > :27:08.first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and
:27:09. > :27:12.London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,
:27:13. > :27:16.if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant
:27:17. > :27:20.to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to
:27:21. > :27:28.UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would
:27:29. > :27:30.have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by
:27:31. > :27:38.mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to
:27:39. > :27:43.experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of
:27:44. > :27:49.1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This
:27:50. > :27:51.man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and
:27:52. > :27:57.polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat
:27:58. > :28:05.candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards
:28:06. > :28:09.realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little
:28:10. > :28:16.Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -
:28:17. > :28:23.bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.
:28:24. > :28:31.Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on
:28:32. > :28:34.so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was
:28:35. > :28:37.established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh
:28:38. > :28:41.floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to
:28:42. > :28:44.voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the
:28:45. > :28:48.conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name
:28:49. > :28:53.of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those
:28:54. > :28:58.registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our
:28:59. > :29:01.opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on
:29:02. > :29:08.the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,
:29:09. > :29:13.were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need
:29:14. > :29:18.to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An
:29:19. > :29:22.independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved
:29:23. > :29:27.in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the
:29:28. > :29:32.description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word
:29:33. > :29:38.independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in
:29:39. > :29:42.1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again
:29:43. > :29:49.at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the
:29:50. > :29:50.major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking
:29:51. > :29:59.votes of them. Joining me now to discuss
:30:00. > :30:03.this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the
:30:04. > :30:06.South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is
:30:07. > :30:21.the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that
:30:22. > :30:26.were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to
:30:27. > :30:32.tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the
:30:33. > :30:39.breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats
:30:40. > :30:47.that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:48. > :30:50.You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:51. > :30:53.You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those
:30:54. > :30:59.with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there
:31:00. > :31:06.is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people
:31:07. > :31:12.who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,
:31:13. > :31:26.they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.
:31:27. > :31:35.I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And
:31:36. > :31:39.Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent
:31:40. > :31:46.people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of
:31:47. > :31:52.delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people
:31:53. > :31:56.have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the
:31:57. > :32:02.first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them
:32:03. > :32:08.in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it
:32:09. > :32:15.strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the
:32:16. > :32:21.electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to
:32:22. > :32:25.Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European
:32:26. > :32:31.Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did
:32:32. > :32:35.come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the
:32:36. > :32:40.election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy
:32:41. > :32:44.with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got
:32:45. > :32:52.significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.
:32:53. > :33:00.Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well
:33:01. > :33:08.represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?
:33:09. > :33:22.Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.
:33:23. > :33:25.I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had
:33:26. > :33:30.getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they
:33:31. > :33:35.voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.
:33:36. > :33:42.What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would
:33:43. > :33:47.agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral
:33:48. > :33:51.Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not
:33:52. > :33:59.confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to
:34:00. > :34:03.agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes
:34:04. > :34:07.and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the
:34:08. > :34:12.south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats
:34:13. > :34:18.into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the
:34:19. > :34:24.system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did
:34:25. > :34:28.not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because
:34:29. > :34:33.you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you
:34:34. > :34:37.have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain
:34:38. > :34:40.about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have
:34:41. > :34:47.complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a
:34:48. > :34:53.proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,
:34:54. > :34:58.we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national
:34:59. > :35:01.legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for
:35:02. > :35:06.national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused
:35:07. > :35:12.some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were
:35:13. > :35:16.very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the
:35:17. > :35:22.authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.
:35:23. > :35:30.That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by
:35:31. > :35:38.demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any
:35:39. > :35:45.legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal
:35:46. > :35:51.advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly
:35:52. > :35:56.does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the
:35:57. > :36:03.morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,
:36:04. > :36:11.there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There
:36:12. > :36:16.needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,
:36:17. > :36:20.one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous
:36:21. > :36:26.and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing
:36:27. > :36:31.going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in
:36:32. > :36:34.Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.
:36:35. > :36:41.It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go
:36:42. > :36:46.back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to
:36:47. > :36:49.the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an
:36:50. > :36:54.authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have
:36:55. > :36:59.the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part
:37:00. > :37:05.of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should
:37:06. > :37:08.there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and
:37:09. > :37:10.the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right
:37:11. > :37:12.to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:13. > :37:17.in Scotland, who leave us now On today's show:
:37:18. > :37:39.we'll be discussing extremism UKIP's rise at the recent elections
:37:40. > :37:41.seemed almost irresistible. So how come Oxfordshire
:37:42. > :37:43.managed to resist? The party didn't get
:37:44. > :37:46.a single councillor elected in the county despite upsetting several
:37:47. > :37:48.applecarts elsewhere in the South. First, let's meet
:37:49. > :37:52.the two politicians who will be with Donna Jones is, as of Tuesd`y,
:37:53. > :37:56.the Conservative Leader And John Denham is the Labotr MP
:37:57. > :38:15.for Southampton Itchen. Congratulations Donna. The
:38:16. > :38:19.suggestion is it will be difficult for you to keep together labour and
:38:20. > :38:23.UKIP support and do what yot want to do. It will not be easy to running
:38:24. > :38:28.in a trailer for that team like Portsmouth with 12 councils out of
:38:29. > :38:31.42. However, the reason I al in the position I'm in today and I am sat
:38:32. > :38:34.here with you as leader of ` unitary authority like Portsmouth is because
:38:35. > :38:38.of the strength of the relationships I have got the council and because
:38:39. > :38:39.people see me as being an open and cohesive councillor that will
:38:40. > :38:43.include everybody. Labour, John, supporting
:38:44. > :38:46.Conservative policies here. That is just to get rid of `n
:38:47. > :38:49.incompetent Lib Dem administration. I spoke to the Labour leader
:38:50. > :38:54.and the truth is I think all of the councillors have had it up to
:38:55. > :38:57.here with the way Portsmouth was being run
:38:58. > :39:00.by the previous Lib Dem leadership. The way they have behaved over
:39:01. > :39:03.the Mike Hancock affair, Although, in a sense,
:39:04. > :39:07.I am sure there will be lots of rows between Labour and the Consdrvatives
:39:08. > :39:14.as, you would expect, the between Labour and the Consdrvatives
:39:15. > :39:17.as you would expect, the overwhelming desire is just to see
:39:18. > :39:20.the way the council is run being But if it is less stable,
:39:21. > :39:25.could Labour take some Well, these are the responshbilities
:39:26. > :39:28.local politicians have to t`ke. They have to make
:39:29. > :39:30.the right decision. And I know
:39:31. > :39:32.my Labour colleagues said, look we just need to run this cotncil
:39:33. > :39:35.in an open and transparent way. You know, they are hoping Donna
:39:36. > :39:38.will be able to deliver that. I am sure they will disagred
:39:39. > :39:41.on lots of policy issues, But it does need to
:39:42. > :39:45.be run differently. And I should make clear,
:39:46. > :39:47.there is no coalition. There are no pacts
:39:48. > :39:49.with UKIP or Labour. Both UKIP and Labour
:39:50. > :39:51.in the chamber supported me on one single vote only, and that
:39:52. > :39:54.was as leader of the council. I mean, I have said to them,
:39:55. > :39:58.we can do the four`way budgdt. There are four political parties
:39:59. > :40:00.represented in Portsmouth now, so I There will be openness
:40:01. > :40:04.and transparency. I have been very clear about the
:40:05. > :40:06.openness and transparency agenda. And, actually, it was that that
:40:07. > :40:20.really drew John Ferrett to wanting to change, because
:40:21. > :40:22.the decision was either a minority administration or stick
:40:23. > :40:25.with the Liberal Democrat one. Actually, as John has just said
:40:26. > :40:28.we need to change in Portsmouth There has been a decade
:40:29. > :40:31.of misrule and, in some casds, You will be looking into sole
:40:32. > :40:34.of those allegations, the btllying There have been a number
:40:35. > :40:38.of accusations made. We need to take that to
:40:39. > :40:42.the next stage. I made it very clear on Tuesday
:40:43. > :40:45.in my acceptance speech after I was elected as leaddr
:40:46. > :40:48.of the council that I am ordering I left the council chamber, I walked
:40:49. > :40:53.over to the civic offices, `nd I sat there with the Chief Executhve and
:40:54. > :40:56.with the city solicitor and I made it clear to them that I wanted an
:40:57. > :40:59.investigation carried out ottside of the council itself because
:41:00. > :41:01.of the accusations of previous Liberal Democrat cabinet
:41:02. > :41:03.members, senior councillors, I am sure they will
:41:04. > :41:05.defend themselves. And, probably,
:41:06. > :41:08.when it comes to it as well, make Those Liberal Democrats are still
:41:09. > :41:13.powerful and have still got a lot They have already started
:41:14. > :41:16.making life difficult. But, actually, I think I have
:41:17. > :41:19.got the public behind me. With D`Day 70 celebrations this
:41:20. > :41:22.morning and yesterday, I have been around about 2000 or 3000 pdople
:41:23. > :41:25.combined and I have been intndated with people coming up, shakhng
:41:26. > :41:28.my hand and saying to me, wd are pleased that a local Pompey girl
:41:29. > :41:31.is going to be running the city No political party always gdts it
:41:32. > :41:36.right, but I think people know with me they are going to get
:41:37. > :41:41.an honest answer and there will be no meetings behind closed doors
:41:42. > :41:44.and I will be including all 41 John, you wrote this week about the
:41:45. > :41:57.UKIP threat to Labour and you were No, these are things that h`ve
:41:58. > :42:10.been pretty consistent that I have Possibly not always as publhcly
:42:11. > :42:14.for many years now, given the experience we havd had
:42:15. > :42:17.here in southern England. And I just want to make
:42:18. > :42:19.two very simple points. It is not
:42:20. > :42:22.the case that Labour has bedn In fact, if you look at our record
:42:23. > :42:26.in Government, we were very tough. We sorted out the asylum system
:42:27. > :42:28.we introduced As we have often said,
:42:29. > :42:32.the Polish migration, the shze of So we should not go round s`ying we
:42:33. > :42:42.are on in favour So we should not go round s`ying we
:42:43. > :42:45.are in favour Secondly, there are things we can do
:42:46. > :42:49.now about European Union migration. The abuse of the minimum wage,
:42:50. > :42:52.the way agency workers and `gencies are used to bring people in
:42:53. > :42:55.when more people could be elployed. But, thirdly, we should repdat
:42:56. > :42:58.Labour's historic commitment. This is that we want a diverse
:42:59. > :43:00.and tolerant society. So, once people are here,
:43:01. > :43:03.they are here legally, let's build a country where we all
:43:04. > :43:06.work together and we are proud. So I just wanted to set
:43:07. > :43:08.the record straight. That is the argument we shotld
:43:09. > :43:11.be making over the next year. I think there are a lot
:43:12. > :43:14.of people out there, people who if you like, said to me
:43:15. > :43:17.during the election campaign, I have always been Labour or usually
:43:18. > :43:20.been Labour, but not this thme. That is the argument they w`nt us to
:43:21. > :43:23.hear, that we understand their concerns but we have got
:43:24. > :43:25.practical answers to it. Well, not, as you say,
:43:26. > :43:28.a reply to UKIP. One of the stories
:43:29. > :43:31.of the recent local elections that certainly got plenty of covdrage was
:43:32. > :43:34.the rise of UKIP, which now has 18 more councillors in our reghon than
:43:35. > :43:37.it did before the election. One place they conspicuouslx failed
:43:38. > :43:40.to get anyone elected ` and the same thing happened
:43:41. > :43:43.at the county council electhons last As our Oxfordshire political
:43:44. > :43:49.reporter Helen Catt has been finding out, that's one county that seems
:43:50. > :44:04.not to have fallen quite Was it this delay glint in his eyes
:44:05. > :44:10.when he talked tough on immhgration? Was it his hard line on Europe? The
:44:11. > :44:20.manly way he handled a pint? She did not know. But one thing was clear,
:44:21. > :44:24.the South was falling for hhm. Nigel Farage and UKIP convincinglx won the
:44:25. > :44:31.southeastern last month's Etropean elections and did well in the
:44:32. > :44:35.locals, two, giving councils in areas such as West Sussex and
:44:36. > :44:39.Berkshire. It seems Oxfordshire is playing hard to get. Despitd getting
:44:40. > :44:46.a decent share of the vote, it was not enough to get UKIP councils
:44:47. > :44:54.elected. `` cancel Lloris. But why? According to one of UKIP's leading
:44:55. > :44:57.men, it was a matter of resources. Our membership is increasing on a
:44:58. > :45:02.monthly basis. Our active mdmbers are increasing. The more we get the
:45:03. > :45:06.message out there, we will follow suit with the rest of the
:45:07. > :45:10.south`east. For those who study voter behaviour, they say
:45:11. > :45:17.Oxfordshire has specific differences which make it hard for UKIP to win
:45:18. > :45:19.under first past the post. Large clusters of highly educated
:45:20. > :45:23.professionals and the large amount of overseas workers of all skills,
:45:24. > :45:30.in combination with the youth vote, which tends not to be UKIP voters.
:45:31. > :45:33.We have a combination of th`t. It explains quite a bit of the
:45:34. > :45:42.difference. You do not need much of a difference to fail to get to that
:45:43. > :45:52.tipping point just over it. UKIP, 903... The tipping point was reached
:45:53. > :46:01.and a variety of places, but not anywhere in Oxfordshire. UKHP's best
:46:02. > :46:07.option was thought to be here. They were just 11 votes short of a win
:46:08. > :46:10.last year but Labour took the seat. But this year, Whitley South stayed
:46:11. > :46:17.true to the Conservatives. Size not of passion but from relief hn Tory
:46:18. > :46:23.HQ. They say voters here nor there is long`term material. We h`ve
:46:24. > :46:26.speculative planning applic`tions, infrastructure issues, we h`ve
:46:27. > :46:33.always not got enough money. Flooding issues. In those instances,
:46:34. > :46:43.a protest vote is not materhalise because people fought for what has
:46:44. > :46:51.to be done locally. `` does not Here, UKIP came a surprise second in
:46:52. > :46:55.four out of six ports listed in Labour say that is harmless
:46:56. > :46:56.flirtation. It is a protest fought about austerity. We will do with the
:46:57. > :47:03.UKIP factor by doing positive UKIP factor by doing positive
:47:04. > :47:09.things, not being aggressivd. UKIP says people's attitudes tow`rds them
:47:10. > :47:13.have changed, particularly hn poor areas of the county. In 2008, we
:47:14. > :47:17.campaign for the Euro electhons and local elections and we were not as
:47:18. > :47:21.welcomed on the doorstep. Pdople did not want to know what we cotld have
:47:22. > :47:26.done for them as local councils All they wanted to do was engagd on a
:47:27. > :47:31.national policy and it did not want to talk about local policy. Now
:47:32. > :47:35.they understand the message that when you are elected as a counsellor
:47:36. > :47:41.under the banner of UK independent, we're not whipped by the party. It
:47:42. > :47:46.is easy to see why they might appeal. Five News the Liber`l
:47:47. > :47:53.Democrats. The space has bedn squeezed quite heavily. But good
:47:54. > :48:00.news for UKIP, because they are occupying vast areas of territory.
:48:01. > :48:06.That is a good thing for delocracy. Some familiar faces for you there.
:48:07. > :48:11.You work with them. They ard interesting. Apart from getting a
:48:12. > :48:15.huge amount of public support, they operate on a different way hn the
:48:16. > :48:19.council. You must see that? They have been thrown in on the deep end.
:48:20. > :48:23.They have been cancelled for a couple of weeks and thrown hnto
:48:24. > :48:33.College in prices in Portsmouth a situation of no overall control ``
:48:34. > :48:36.thrown into a Coalition crisis. In the interest of democracy, H had to
:48:37. > :48:42.explain the situation the council found himself in just under two
:48:43. > :48:45.weeks ago. I have not worked with him on policy stuff yet. Thdy have
:48:46. > :48:53.told me things that interest them, such as moving to a committde
:48:54. > :49:00.system. Would you give them a place our committee? I would. I do not
:49:01. > :49:03.have the mandate to run the council in outright control. I have given
:49:04. > :49:08.two seats to Labour, two to UKIP and two on chairmanships on comlittees
:49:09. > :49:13.to the Lib Dems as well. Thdre are various other key outside bodies,
:49:14. > :49:24.scrutiny panels and things like that. I have shield the work. ``
:49:25. > :49:27.shared. Is it good for democracy? Parties represent different values
:49:28. > :49:32.and different beliefs that photos have got. We all have different
:49:33. > :49:35.positions. If there is a group of people with a significant sdt of
:49:36. > :49:44.views around Europe, for ex`mple, it is perfectly right they shotld we
:49:45. > :49:48.pay `` writes that there should be a political party that represdnts
:49:49. > :49:51.make to people with different make to people with different
:49:52. > :49:56.beliefs under one banner. I think UKIP will find it much harddr to put
:49:57. > :49:59.together a coherent set of policies that, if you like, appeal to people
:50:00. > :50:04.who come from the conservathve right. And some people to the left
:50:05. > :50:09.of the Labour Party. I think they will find that hard next ye`r. In
:50:10. > :50:14.places like Portsmouth, running a counsellor is a complicated hated
:50:15. > :50:18.the is this. Europe is something that gets you to the bed, pdrhaps,
:50:19. > :50:23.for them, but it doesn't tell you how to run Portsmouth. In
:50:24. > :50:27.Portsmouth, with UKIP, for dxample, the chap said it is better resources
:50:28. > :50:32.and that is why he did not win seats. That is not true. Thdy have
:50:33. > :50:42.Siegel resources in Portsmotth. Now campaigning at all and Portsmouth
:50:43. > :50:50.but the one six votes. `` dds won. In working`class parts, thex took
:50:51. > :50:53.four seats and several of L`bour and the Conservatives. With reg`rds to
:50:54. > :50:59.the Liberal Democrat seats they took, it was Mike Hancock's seat.
:51:00. > :51:04.Very working`class area. Yotr thing I would say is it is all UKHP, UKIP
:51:05. > :51:11.in the media. As we go into each year, the focus will be, who will be
:51:12. > :51:14.running the country? Who has the best way of making sure that if we
:51:15. > :51:18.get economic growth, ordinary families benefit from that? On most
:51:19. > :51:20.of those issues, UKIP have nothing to say on that. We're going to move
:51:21. > :51:24.on there. Another success story that xou might
:51:25. > :51:27.have missed in all the election They picked up another MEP hn
:51:28. > :51:32.the South West, so they've now got And indeed
:51:33. > :51:36.in many places their share of the They also picked up a coupld
:51:37. > :51:40.of council seats, one in Oxford Joining me now is Elise Benjamin,
:51:41. > :51:44.who's a councillor on Oxford City Council as well
:51:45. > :51:51.as being her party's spokesperson You have a lot of influence in Oxo
:51:52. > :51:58.but also now in Europe as wdll. `` in Oxford. Have the media mhssed the
:51:59. > :52:07.Green Party's growth, and if so why? Are we upset the Nigel Farage?
:52:08. > :52:10.There is a bit of an obsesshon. We talk about a different model of
:52:11. > :52:16.economics and how to do things. Taking a step back, not just
:52:17. > :52:21.assuming that market led policies are way ahead. Have you got too many
:52:22. > :52:26.policies? Is that the I would never say too many. We have a lot of
:52:27. > :52:31.policies and a large number of policies people are not aware of.
:52:32. > :52:36.So, we welcome opportunities like this to talk to you and see that.
:52:37. > :52:39.Someone voted to vote for climate change, just as they want to devote
:52:40. > :52:45.to get out of Europe, they come to you. `` wanted to vote. But they get
:52:46. > :52:50.put off by the various other things you have in the party. Battdrs a
:52:51. > :52:58.wider drawer. They see other parties talking about climate changd but it
:52:59. > :53:04.is an add`on. `` that is part of the wider drawer. You cannot pick one of
:53:05. > :53:09.those three. They have to work together. Why are you not gdtting
:53:10. > :53:13.the protest votes against atsterity or politics? We are the younger
:53:14. > :53:19.generation. We noticed that in Oxford. Not all areas, becatse one
:53:20. > :53:23.of the two universities had broken up on the week of the electhon. But
:53:24. > :53:27.certain inner city centre whll be picked up a couple of seats it was
:53:28. > :53:30.very much students who are thinking ahead, worried it might not get the
:53:31. > :53:37.job, even from oxygen adversity and looking at some of our mess`ge is
:53:38. > :53:43.around and alternative to atsterity. `` Oxford University. The policy
:53:44. > :53:54.point be put together last xear in advance of the elections including
:53:55. > :53:58.not scapegoating migrants. The major parties are addressing immigration
:53:59. > :54:04.more hardline way. There has not been an honest debate.
:54:05. > :54:07.The rise of UKIP is partly the fault of other parties who have h`d far
:54:08. > :54:13.more airtime than us and have not talked honestly about the issues. In
:54:14. > :54:15.one of the manifesto things I saw for European election, the Green
:54:16. > :54:19.Party said what we should bd doing is increasing the wealth of the poor
:54:20. > :54:28.countries in Europe so people do not need to leave and move here. Is that
:54:29. > :54:32.viable? If we in Europe, we need to have a balanced Europe. I al a great
:54:33. > :54:36.expert on Europe. I am the local council and a focus on local issues.
:54:37. > :54:41.But there is an imbalance. Ht links back to the economic system because
:54:42. > :54:46.it is not really on our sidd as people, it is on the side of big
:54:47. > :54:51.business. The issue that was not mentioned at all during the European
:54:52. > :54:55.election was the US and European trade discussions. No`one is talking
:54:56. > :54:59.about that except us. That could seriously impact on the welfare
:55:00. > :55:05.especially in poor countries in Europe. Looking out for thel. And an
:55:06. > :55:10.anti`globalisation message. Shouldn't that be were the Labour
:55:11. > :55:16.Party is, John? Talking tough on immigration, but you say yot should
:55:17. > :55:19.be recognised for the hardlhne. . We have taken a hard`headed in Prague
:55:20. > :55:26.Matic approach on immigration. `` and pragmatic. We should not take an
:55:27. > :55:33.anti`globalisation position. It could put jobs in jeopardy. We want
:55:34. > :55:35.opportunities for young people. They were working `` the booby working in
:55:36. > :55:43.an economy that is competing globally. `` they will be working.
:55:44. > :55:51.Can I just finished the point I am making. We need to link givhng with
:55:52. > :55:54.climate change with building and energy industry in this country that
:55:55. > :56:00.provides good jobs and makes homes cheaper to heat. If you do that you
:56:01. > :56:05.can combine all the aspirathons of the Green Party, saving the planet,
:56:06. > :56:10.with hard`headed economics that produce good jobs. That is what we
:56:11. > :56:14.are doing. On the East Coast Railway, we said very clearly it
:56:15. > :56:17.should not be forced into bding a private franchise again. It fell
:56:18. > :56:21.into public ownership because last went bust. Since then, it h`s made
:56:22. > :56:30.money. The taxpayer has got money back. What we do about the rest of
:56:31. > :56:41.their railway network... It is a bit Fat way, isn't it? `` third way
:56:42. > :56:44.That really has been making money for the taxpayer and the
:56:45. > :56:50.Conservative and Liberal Delocrat Government has done the wrong thing
:56:51. > :56:54.with that. 30 seconds, Donn`. We talked about UKIP, but what about
:56:55. > :57:00.the greenest party ever? How does Cameron fight the Green Party? We
:57:01. > :57:04.have good policies, the Coalition Government. In terms of building
:57:05. > :57:07.green and clean houses and bringing in energy policies, what is going on
:57:08. > :57:12.at the moment in those parts of Government are outstanding. With
:57:13. > :57:15.immigration, I think it is rich what John has just said. Highest
:57:16. > :57:19.immigration in the ten years that Labour were running the country
:57:20. > :57:26.that we have ever seen. Before the general election may have a tough
:57:27. > :57:30.migration policy. We dealt with the situation that was chaotic when we
:57:31. > :57:32.came in, as it happens, and we introduced the points `based
:57:33. > :57:37.migration system that the Conservatives now talk about. The
:57:38. > :57:46.record is a good one. Now, highest levels of immigration under Labour.
:57:47. > :57:49.Are these the old parties? Xes. Globalisation has not given us the
:57:50. > :57:54.jobs. Look at the mess that has been left. We cannot go on like this and
:57:55. > :58:00.this is why the younger gendration are turning more to others. They see
:58:01. > :58:06.that we have an alternative. Our regular round`up of the polhtical
:58:07. > :58:11.weaknesses in 60 seconds. `` the political week in the South.
:58:12. > :58:13.An action plan to improve South Oxfordshire air quality has
:58:14. > :58:16.Pollution is over EU limits in several towns.
:58:17. > :58:18.David Cameron's constituencx home in Oxfordshire was blockaded by
:58:19. > :58:21.Shale gas extraction was ond of the controversial subjects
:58:22. > :58:26.New Forest MP Des Swain was sent to the Palace as the Royal hostage
:58:27. > :58:28.For the first time, two female MPs made the
:58:29. > :58:38.I may have left the current leader of the opposition
:58:39. > :58:42.Portsmouth's Penny Mordaunt was followed by Annette Brooke,
:58:43. > :58:45.Looking back at other MPs who have represented
:58:46. > :58:52.constituencies in Dorset, fdmales are conspicuous by their absence.
:58:53. > :58:57.And finally, the Church of Dngland has joined the debate over HS2,
:58:58. > :59:00.pointing out that 12th`centtry graves lie on the route.
:59:01. > :59:02.The Archbishop's Committee has called
:59:03. > :59:15.for human remains to be tre`ted in a decent and reverent manner
:59:16. > :59:21.It is surprising only two women have done that loyal address, isn't it?
:59:22. > :59:26.Shocking? Yes, I had no ide` about that. Penny Mordaunt stood ` good
:59:27. > :59:32.job and some will say, how come she wasn't part of the Government? A
:59:33. > :59:35.brilliant speech, but less not forget, by the time the next
:59:36. > :59:40.election comes, what was a viable shipyard building ships for the
:59:41. > :59:45.Royal Navy has failed. That is under Penny Mordaunt's watch. The
:59:46. > :59:50.judgement of history was th`t the shipyard that made Portsmouth famous
:59:51. > :59:53.has closed under her watch. I am very excited for the future of
:59:54. > :00:00.Portsmouth. I met with Mich`el Fallon, I spent two hours whth him
:00:01. > :00:04.some might support the building of a some might support the building of a
:00:05. > :00:11.5`star hotel, cruise liners sailing from Portsmouth. Penny has brought
:00:12. > :00:15.in money to the area and is doing an outstanding job as an MP. Ultimate
:00:16. > :00:20.is the place of political ddbate at the moment. `` Portsmouth is. It is
:00:21. > :00:23.a leading city in the South. That's the Sunday Politics
:00:24. > :00:23.in the South. my guests. That is it for the Sunday
:00:24. > :00:36.Politics in London. Back to Andrew. Is enough being done to
:00:37. > :00:40.tackle extremism in schools? Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker,
:00:41. > :01:09.will make we are joined by the founder of the
:01:10. > :01:13.Quilliam Association. If you read the Sunday Telegraph this morning,
:01:14. > :01:16.there is a real problem. If you read the Observer, there is not much of a
:01:17. > :01:35.problem. What is the situation in your view in Birmingham? Allegations
:01:36. > :01:40.are seen to be -- if music was not being taught as it should be.
:01:41. > :01:44.Instead of the rating the national holidays here during the Christmas
:01:45. > :01:47.period, children were sent off instead on religious pilgrimage to
:01:48. > :01:54.Mecca, then I think something is going on. From my knowledge, I know
:01:55. > :02:03.about some of the strategies to influence. These strategies are
:02:04. > :02:06.known as gradualism. The idea, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is
:02:07. > :02:16.to join the institutions of society and influence from within -- from
:02:17. > :02:20.within. It is a gradual approach to Islamicisation society. We have seen
:02:21. > :02:27.that happening in other areas, such as the decision by the Law Society
:02:28. > :02:32.to call it shy and issue it out as guidance for solicitors. They are
:02:33. > :02:41.saying this means that women inherit half of what men
:02:42. > :02:41.saying this means that women inherit and adopted children do not get any
:02:42. > :02:42.inheritance. Apostates do not get any inheritance. These are
:02:43. > :02:48.guidelines being issued by the Law Society by Islamic. It is a medieval
:02:49. > :02:55.take on Islam. That is what is meant. We see the same names popping
:02:56. > :03:03.up again and again in different situations in Birmingham. Is it a
:03:04. > :03:05.planned infiltration? In my profession of you and
:03:06. > :03:08.planned infiltration? In my profession of you having spent 3
:03:09. > :03:08.years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been
:03:09. > :03:21.involved Islamist organisation, having been
:03:22. > :03:22.and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been
:03:23. > :03:24.certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this
:03:25. > :03:28.country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to
:03:29. > :03:33.bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like
:03:34. > :03:37.segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these
:03:38. > :03:44.things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they
:03:45. > :03:50.were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state
:03:51. > :03:56.Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were
:03:57. > :04:01.state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally
:04:02. > :04:08.in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of
:04:09. > :04:12.faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think
:04:13. > :04:17.these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider
:04:18. > :04:22.communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very
:04:23. > :04:26.important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already
:04:27. > :04:33.had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a
:04:34. > :04:39.serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the
:04:40. > :04:42.segregation of children into intensely populated areas where
:04:43. > :04:47.everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading
:04:48. > :04:51.children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular
:04:52. > :04:55.school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become
:04:56. > :04:59.like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools
:05:00. > :05:03.to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite
:05:04. > :05:09.hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith
:05:10. > :05:13.schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma
:05:14. > :05:18.being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma
:05:19. > :05:22.being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it
:05:23. > :05:26.is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the
:05:27. > :05:30.whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the
:05:31. > :05:45.business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The
:05:46. > :05:50.overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is
:05:51. > :05:53.that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some
:05:54. > :05:57.schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned
:05:58. > :06:03.in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been
:06:04. > :06:07.entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum
:06:08. > :06:10.of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing
:06:11. > :06:14.it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided
:06:15. > :06:19.ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took
:06:20. > :06:23.on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of
:06:24. > :06:28.Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers
:06:29. > :06:35.in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than
:06:36. > :06:39.they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that
:06:40. > :06:43.our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not
:06:44. > :06:48.instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also
:06:49. > :06:52.that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board
:06:53. > :06:56.in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it the
:06:57. > :06:59.former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full
:07:00. > :07:05.Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being
:07:06. > :07:10.treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on
:07:11. > :07:14.empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what
:07:15. > :07:17.Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is
:07:18. > :07:20.undermined the work of local education authorities. They think
:07:21. > :07:28.they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school
:07:29. > :07:36.in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local
:07:37. > :07:40.education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,
:07:41. > :07:45.they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.
:07:46. > :07:49.Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.
:07:50. > :07:54.There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt
:07:55. > :07:57.was trying to answer that point By tapping it cannot all have gone pear
:07:58. > :08:08.shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it
:08:09. > :08:11.cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It
:08:12. > :08:16.will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow
:08:17. > :08:20.or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider
:08:21. > :08:29.questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two
:08:30. > :08:33.points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other
:08:34. > :08:37.institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea
:08:38. > :08:47.of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.
:08:48. > :08:54.-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect
:08:55. > :08:59.racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and
:09:00. > :09:03.Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and
:09:04. > :09:08.robust leap by civilian society It was settled by the Prime Minister
:09:09. > :09:17.and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I
:09:18. > :09:25.think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates
:09:26. > :09:45.official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will
:09:46. > :09:48.Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide
:09:49. > :09:54.whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission
:09:55. > :09:56.president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for
:09:57. > :10:00.Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on
:10:01. > :10:09.last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too
:10:10. > :10:15.late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left
:10:16. > :10:21.with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice
:10:22. > :10:27.with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and
:10:28. > :10:32.Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest
:10:33. > :10:42.of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within
:10:43. > :10:48.Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron
:10:49. > :10:51.getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go
:10:52. > :10:55.to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is
:10:56. > :10:59.the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of
:11:00. > :11:03.symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the
:11:04. > :11:06.Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the
:11:07. > :11:11.Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response
:11:12. > :11:20.to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty
:11:21. > :11:23.that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say
:11:24. > :11:27.the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.
:11:28. > :11:32.He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the
:11:33. > :11:45.elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.
:11:46. > :11:59.This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing
:12:00. > :12:10.really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so
:12:11. > :12:17.cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own
:12:18. > :12:24.pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is
:12:25. > :12:29.to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least
:12:30. > :12:32.I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats
:12:33. > :12:36.challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the
:12:37. > :12:41.Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.
:12:42. > :12:46.That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been
:12:47. > :12:52.there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.
:12:53. > :12:57.Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.
:12:58. > :13:00.Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The
:13:01. > :13:07.overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20
:13:08. > :13:14.seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle
:13:15. > :13:21.on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if
:13:22. > :13:27.Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of
:13:28. > :13:30.the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left
:13:31. > :13:44.of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,
:13:45. > :13:51.you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is
:13:52. > :14:19.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing
:14:20. > :14:21.about being a foster parent? You're constantly trying
:14:22. > :14:24.to build the elusive trust. It's like a big old question mark
:14:25. > :14:27.in your heart. I just try and do the best I can
:14:28. > :14:30.for them while they're with me Join Lorraine Pascale as
:14:31. > :14:33.she looks at stories of fostering... I wasn't happy at all, but now I am.
:14:34. > :14:36...including her own. Nice to know finally
:14:37. > :14:38.where I came to the world. To know that you've grown up and had
:14:39. > :14:49.such a successful life is lovely. 'I'm going on an adventure.'
:14:50. > :14:53.Wow. That is a long way.
:14:54. > :14:57.Quite a bit of it is on bikes. What are you going to do
:14:58. > :14:58.about your hair? They told me I had good technique,
:14:59. > :15:03.I'm quite happy with that. Is this the most adventurous thing
:15:04. > :15:07.you've ever done? Without a doubt.