:00:49. > :00:50.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.
:00:51. > :00:52.But the country now faces a de facto partition.
:00:53. > :00:55.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?
:00:56. > :00:58.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.
:00:59. > :01:02.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?
:01:03. > :01:09.Both sides join us to go head to head.
:01:10. > :01:13.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of
:01:14. > :01:15.that? In so,
:01:16. > :01:31.even Westminster, we'll be asking In London, why the minority vote one
:01:32. > :01:32.recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger
:01:33. > :01:43.than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known
:01:44. > :01:46.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern
:01:47. > :01:48.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked
:01:49. > :01:51.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has
:01:52. > :01:54.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army
:01:55. > :01:58.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that
:01:59. > :02:05.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri
:02:06. > :02:08.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation
:02:09. > :02:10.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi
:02:11. > :02:15.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or
:02:16. > :02:19.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a
:02:20. > :02:22.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to
:02:23. > :02:32.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts
:02:33. > :02:35.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias
:02:36. > :02:38.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way
:02:39. > :02:41.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another
:02:42. > :02:46.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,
:02:47. > :02:48.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help
:02:49. > :02:53.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports
:02:54. > :02:55.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's
:02:56. > :03:14.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who
:03:15. > :03:21.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS
:03:22. > :03:25.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure
:03:26. > :03:29.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.
:03:30. > :03:35.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not
:03:36. > :03:39.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they
:03:40. > :03:42.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as
:03:43. > :03:47.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of
:03:48. > :03:53.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,
:03:54. > :03:57.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,
:03:58. > :04:02.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was
:04:03. > :04:07.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and
:04:08. > :04:12.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in
:04:13. > :04:14.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their
:04:15. > :04:17.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is
:04:18. > :04:21.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer
:04:22. > :04:25.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia
:04:26. > :04:27.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and
:04:28. > :04:31.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and
:04:32. > :04:35.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We
:04:36. > :04:40.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,
:04:41. > :04:48.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What
:04:49. > :04:53.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a
:04:54. > :05:01.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are
:05:02. > :05:04.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major
:05:05. > :05:08.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the
:05:09. > :05:12.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys
:05:13. > :05:18.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would
:05:19. > :05:21.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could
:05:22. > :05:26.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they
:05:27. > :05:30.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these
:05:31. > :05:36.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can
:05:37. > :05:41.effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next
:05:42. > :05:44.week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious
:05:45. > :05:53.government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a
:05:54. > :06:00.really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for
:06:01. > :06:06.some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map
:06:07. > :06:08.because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their
:06:09. > :06:14.position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking
:06:15. > :06:20.over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim
:06:21. > :06:23.are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south
:06:24. > :06:33.and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.
:06:34. > :06:36.-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways
:06:37. > :06:41.Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi
:06:42. > :06:46.combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see
:06:47. > :06:51.millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a
:06:52. > :06:56.lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type
:06:57. > :07:03.partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of
:07:04. > :07:08.Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will
:07:09. > :07:19.occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an
:07:20. > :07:25.awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard
:07:26. > :07:29.about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.
:07:30. > :07:33.It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and
:07:34. > :07:39.if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always
:07:40. > :07:42.be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.
:07:43. > :07:48.Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border
:07:49. > :07:55.with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming
:07:56. > :07:58.a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I
:07:59. > :08:02.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform
:08:03. > :08:08.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers
:08:09. > :08:13.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the
:08:14. > :08:17.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think
:08:18. > :08:20.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise
:08:21. > :08:26.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.
:08:27. > :08:30.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.
:08:31. > :08:33.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.
:08:34. > :08:35.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing
:08:36. > :08:39.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.
:08:40. > :08:41.This morning he entered the debate about what should be
:08:42. > :08:52.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11
:08:53. > :08:58.happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,
:08:59. > :09:03.Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a
:09:04. > :09:06.major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the
:09:07. > :09:10.dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem
:09:11. > :09:14.doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates
:09:15. > :09:19.about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,
:09:20. > :09:22.but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional
:09:23. > :09:26.problem, but a problem that will affect us.
:09:27. > :09:28.And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,
:09:29. > :09:32.Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman
:09:33. > :09:34.for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,
:09:35. > :09:47.she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.
:09:48. > :09:52.Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a
:09:53. > :09:57.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed
:09:58. > :10:01.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.
:10:02. > :10:05.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an
:10:06. > :10:11.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during
:10:12. > :10:15.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the
:10:16. > :10:18.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics
:10:19. > :10:24.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a
:10:25. > :10:29.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular
:10:30. > :10:32.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of
:10:33. > :10:38.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the
:10:39. > :10:43.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come
:10:44. > :10:46.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what
:10:47. > :10:49.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,
:10:50. > :10:54.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the
:10:55. > :10:57.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no
:10:58. > :11:02.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he
:11:03. > :11:08.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very
:11:09. > :11:14.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this
:11:15. > :11:18.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the
:11:19. > :11:22.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use
:11:23. > :11:32.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that
:11:33. > :11:37.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire
:11:38. > :11:42.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform
:11:43. > :11:49.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines
:11:50. > :11:53.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big
:11:54. > :11:58.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as
:11:59. > :12:03.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,
:12:04. > :12:08.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in
:12:09. > :12:13.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have
:12:14. > :12:16.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were
:12:17. > :12:21.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that
:12:22. > :12:25.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are
:12:26. > :12:29.calling on the international community to help us with that. So
:12:30. > :12:33.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe
:12:34. > :12:38.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent
:12:39. > :12:44.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I
:12:45. > :12:51.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be
:12:52. > :12:58.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the
:12:59. > :13:01.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is
:13:02. > :13:05.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily
:13:06. > :13:08.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,
:13:09. > :13:14.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more
:13:15. > :13:21.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the
:13:22. > :13:25.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be
:13:26. > :13:29.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.
:13:30. > :13:36.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.
:13:37. > :13:39.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have
:13:40. > :13:43.seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we
:13:44. > :13:47.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,
:13:48. > :13:53.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and
:13:54. > :13:57.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through
:13:58. > :14:03.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and
:14:04. > :14:06.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made
:14:07. > :14:11.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic
:14:12. > :14:15.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for
:14:16. > :14:19.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise
:14:20. > :14:25.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq
:14:26. > :14:28.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century
:14:29. > :14:32.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable
:14:33. > :14:37.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc
:14:38. > :14:43.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the
:14:44. > :14:47.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are
:14:48. > :14:54.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from
:14:55. > :14:57.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and
:14:58. > :15:03.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it
:15:04. > :15:10.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto
:15:11. > :15:17.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the
:15:18. > :15:20.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination
:15:21. > :15:24.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may
:15:25. > :15:29.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded
:15:30. > :15:32.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key
:15:33. > :15:43.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two
:15:44. > :15:48.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done
:15:49. > :15:56.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.
:15:57. > :16:03.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni
:16:04. > :16:08.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the
:16:09. > :16:13.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go
:16:14. > :16:20.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If
:16:21. > :16:27.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability
:16:28. > :16:28.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to
:16:29. > :16:57.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will
:16:58. > :17:01.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your
:17:02. > :17:05.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all
:17:06. > :17:10.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never
:17:11. > :17:13.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three
:17:14. > :17:15.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a
:17:16. > :17:18.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose
:17:19. > :17:25.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what
:17:26. > :17:29.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the
:17:30. > :17:37.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the
:17:38. > :17:41.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside
:17:42. > :17:46.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that
:17:47. > :17:52.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think
:17:53. > :18:01.this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a
:18:02. > :18:06.caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.
:18:07. > :18:10.More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in
:18:11. > :18:11.Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming
:18:12. > :18:26.for us. to assume that they will be coming
:18:27. > :18:30.extremely dangerous. The only way forward is for these political
:18:31. > :18:33.groups to talk to each other and find a compromise that allows the
:18:34. > :18:37.rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected within or the
:18:38. > :18:41.rates of cinemas and minorities in Iraq to be protected with an
:18:42. > :18:45.autonomous federal-state. Any support for the government must be
:18:46. > :18:46.premised on that. There is no military solution for this which is
:18:47. > :20:26.in Independence supporters online,
:20:27. > :20:34.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor
:20:35. > :20:37.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together
:20:38. > :20:40.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,
:20:41. > :20:44.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers
:20:45. > :20:45.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival
:20:46. > :20:51.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to
:20:52. > :20:53.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from
:20:54. > :21:00.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,
:21:01. > :21:20.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you
:21:21. > :21:24.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond
:21:25. > :21:28.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the
:21:29. > :21:34.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number
:21:35. > :21:37.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling
:21:38. > :21:42.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a
:21:43. > :21:46.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably
:21:47. > :21:50.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not
:21:51. > :21:55.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty
:21:56. > :21:58.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there
:21:59. > :22:05.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the
:22:06. > :22:10.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to
:22:11. > :22:15.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,
:22:16. > :22:22.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a
:22:23. > :22:25.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is
:22:26. > :22:29.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out
:22:30. > :22:35.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get
:22:36. > :22:38.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and
:22:39. > :22:43.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I
:22:44. > :22:48.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging
:22:49. > :22:54.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we
:22:55. > :22:58.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United
:22:59. > :23:05.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,
:23:06. > :23:10.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to
:23:11. > :23:15.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on
:23:16. > :23:20.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.
:23:21. > :23:28.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come
:23:29. > :23:31.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What
:23:32. > :23:37.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I
:23:38. > :23:46.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but
:23:47. > :23:51.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that
:23:52. > :23:56.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,
:23:57. > :24:00.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was
:24:01. > :24:05.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people
:24:06. > :24:10.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against
:24:11. > :24:19.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of
:24:20. > :24:23.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,
:24:24. > :24:29.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to
:24:30. > :24:33.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most
:24:34. > :24:40.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.
:24:41. > :24:46.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.
:24:47. > :24:50.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting
:24:51. > :24:54.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if
:24:55. > :24:59.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and
:25:00. > :25:03.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the
:25:04. > :25:06.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK
:25:07. > :25:11.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars
:25:12. > :25:18.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.
:25:19. > :25:25.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.
:25:26. > :25:29.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is
:25:30. > :25:35.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than
:25:36. > :25:40.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair
:25:41. > :25:43.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il
:25:44. > :25:48.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need
:25:49. > :25:55.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It
:25:56. > :26:02.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I
:26:03. > :26:08.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You
:26:09. > :26:14.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?
:26:15. > :26:20.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.
:26:21. > :26:25.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be
:26:26. > :26:31.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at
:26:32. > :26:35.all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I
:26:36. > :26:38.think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing
:26:39. > :26:43.such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,
:26:44. > :26:49.their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the
:26:50. > :26:52.United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I
:26:53. > :27:00.refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve
:27:01. > :27:07.answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most
:27:08. > :27:13.outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair
:27:14. > :27:17.Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they
:27:18. > :27:22.are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is
:27:23. > :27:29.worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted
:27:30. > :27:33.perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they
:27:34. > :27:37.are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this
:27:38. > :27:42.campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around
:27:43. > :27:49.Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned
:27:50. > :27:53.out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes
:27:54. > :27:58.campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know
:27:59. > :28:05.we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of
:28:06. > :28:09.polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion
:28:10. > :28:14.polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.
:28:15. > :28:20.Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.
:28:21. > :28:26.You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying
:28:27. > :28:32.in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280
:28:33. > :28:36.hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your
:28:37. > :28:42.hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the
:28:43. > :28:48.campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then
:28:49. > :28:55.why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are
:28:56. > :28:59.taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits
:29:00. > :29:04.of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and
:29:05. > :29:08.more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United
:29:09. > :29:13.Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things
:29:14. > :29:19.like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the
:29:20. > :29:24.issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one
:29:25. > :29:30.very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the
:29:31. > :29:34.England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be
:29:35. > :29:38.delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in
:29:39. > :29:43.the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I
:29:44. > :29:49.would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think
:29:50. > :29:55.it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I
:29:56. > :30:01.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.
:30:02. > :30:04.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match
:30:05. > :30:07.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and
:30:08. > :30:11.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.
:30:12. > :30:14.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever
:30:15. > :30:16.and with speculation about the fitness of each political
:30:17. > :30:23.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.
:30:24. > :30:25.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:30:26. > :30:38.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football
:30:39. > :30:45.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for
:30:46. > :30:46.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon
:30:47. > :30:50.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian
:30:51. > :30:51.barbecue. And at Westminster they're
:30:52. > :31:01.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.
:31:02. > :31:05.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start
:31:06. > :31:06.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?
:31:07. > :31:13.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid
:31:14. > :31:16.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got
:31:17. > :31:25.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next
:31:26. > :31:26.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and
:31:27. > :31:28.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very
:31:29. > :31:30.popular since she fell out with him out how
:31:31. > :31:33.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation
:31:34. > :31:36.about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a
:31:37. > :31:47.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any
:31:48. > :31:56.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has
:31:57. > :31:57.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is
:31:58. > :31:58.standing down. Does he go with the favourite
:31:59. > :32:01.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,
:32:02. > :32:03.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate
:32:04. > :32:21.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European
:32:22. > :32:25.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s
:32:26. > :32:27.poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.
:32:28. > :32:29.Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.
:32:30. > :32:38.You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them
:32:39. > :32:38.all? This is almost the perfect team.
:32:39. > :32:42.There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow
:32:43. > :32:46.And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing
:32:47. > :32:57.I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -
:32:58. > :33:02.With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,
:33:03. > :33:13.He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to
:33:14. > :33:17.trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.
:33:18. > :33:20.He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into
:33:21. > :33:24.the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's
:33:25. > :33:27.very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,
:33:28. > :33:31.despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime
:33:32. > :33:35.minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at
:33:36. > :33:40.the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick
:33:41. > :33:47.Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I
:33:48. > :33:48.need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far
:33:49. > :33:52.better. There you are. Some local parties are holding
:33:53. > :33:55.meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week
:33:56. > :34:07.they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.
:34:08. > :34:11.Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do
:34:12. > :34:14.that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy
:34:15. > :34:17.collecting. These beauties are popping up
:34:18. > :34:20.everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around
:34:21. > :34:30.Westminster as I speak. I'm joined
:34:31. > :34:32.by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers
:34:33. > :34:34.throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch
:34:35. > :34:44.the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the
:34:45. > :34:46.break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,
:34:47. > :34:55.senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They
:34:56. > :35:01.are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this
:35:02. > :35:06.jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.
:35:07. > :35:13.What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and
:35:14. > :35:16.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking
:35:17. > :35:20.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that
:35:21. > :35:25.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on
:35:26. > :35:28.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he
:35:29. > :35:34.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.
:35:35. > :35:38.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the
:35:39. > :35:48.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.
:35:49. > :35:54.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails
:35:55. > :35:56.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more
:35:57. > :36:01.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an
:36:02. > :36:05.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while
:36:06. > :36:08.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing
:36:09. > :36:12.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant
:36:13. > :36:14.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --
:36:15. > :36:16.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they
:36:17. > :36:22.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I
:36:23. > :36:26.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots
:36:27. > :36:30.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read
:36:31. > :36:34.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people
:36:35. > :36:40.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on
:36:41. > :36:47.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe
:36:48. > :36:51.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so
:36:52. > :36:57.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris
:36:58. > :37:03.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,
:37:04. > :37:06.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this
:37:07. > :37:12.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove
:37:13. > :37:15.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he
:37:16. > :37:20.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative
:37:21. > :37:24.party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two
:37:25. > :37:27.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it
:37:28. > :37:32.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but
:37:33. > :37:36.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,
:37:37. > :37:45.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That
:37:46. > :37:51.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit
:37:52. > :37:55.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break
:37:56. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:39.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's
:38:40. > :38:43.1st, let's meet the politichans with me. 1st is the Conservative MP for
:38:44. > :38:48.Christchurch and until a few weeks ago the Lib Dem leader for
:38:49. > :40:07.Portsmouth City Council. Yot have been replaced by
:40:08. > :40:13.been telling to reason me. Hf you are the Home Secretary then you rely
:40:14. > :40:16.on this information. I think that the information she has been given
:40:17. > :40:22.about this was rather late `nd inadequate. And then she was not
:40:23. > :40:27.even told that they were ch`nging the rules. Relaxing the sectrity
:40:28. > :40:34.measures. It does not look good does it? With government and
:40:35. > :40:37.councils you must be able to do the basics properly. If councils do not
:40:38. > :40:42.collect the rubbish then thdy get punished. If governments cannot have
:40:43. > :40:49.it passport properly then they get punished. So they must do bdtter,
:40:50. > :40:53.Chris? It is all about delivering. If the government cannot deliver
:40:54. > :41:00.then people will think, why should we support them? It is a
:41:01. > :41:10.depressingly familiar, care homes seem to be the last place that you
:41:11. > :41:13.can receive care for the elderly. It was a care home that field on the
:41:14. > :41:21.most basic level, ensuring that residence where fed and recdived the
:41:22. > :41:24.correct dedication. There wdre reports of rough treatment hn
:41:25. > :41:32.patients with dressings are secured with Sellotape. There have been
:41:33. > :41:36.deaths at the home, 5 of whhch were caused by neglect. It is 10 the
:41:37. > :41:40.government join the dots and concedes that the private sdctor is
:41:41. > :41:44.not the place for the most vulnerable people in societx. It
:41:45. > :41:49.consistently feels them. Not only care homes, we have had winter born
:41:50. > :41:54.in Saint Michaels, there ard numerous homes. How many more
:41:55. > :41:58.serious case reviews like this, but people sit and listen to as the
:41:59. > :42:02.government observed but not bring meaningful change? This is ` much
:42:03. > :42:08.wider is you. It is a national issue and the government must step up to
:42:09. > :42:14.the mark. There is a moral test for government here. On Tuesday Jeremy
:42:15. > :42:20.Hunt was in the Commons sayhng that the recent care act provides
:42:21. > :42:26.controls. In the care act wd have legislated not only for its even
:42:27. > :42:32.spectre of general practice for adult social care who has m`de an
:42:33. > :42:37.excellent start, she is going all care homes and bringing back
:42:38. > :42:41.rigorous style analysis which was once the case but was taken away by
:42:42. > :42:48.the last government. The author of the serious case review joins us now
:42:49. > :42:55.from our Oxford studio. Rigorous Ofstead style analysis? What does
:42:56. > :43:00.that mean? A number of the recommendations that are in the case
:43:01. > :43:06.review do stress that there are certain things that will be a very
:43:07. > :43:12.helpful for the CDC to focus on so they can satisfy themselves that the
:43:13. > :43:15.care home is good with the professional development of their
:43:16. > :43:21.staff in the following profdssional recommendations of the Cavendish
:43:22. > :43:25.review. It is a systematic `pproach? But also keeping the customdrs in
:43:26. > :43:32.mind? Of course. You must kdep everyone in mind. The fact hs there
:43:33. > :43:36.are some very good care homds in the independent sector but therd are a
:43:37. > :43:42.number of issues that come tp as anybody involved in commisshoning
:43:43. > :43:46.places in care homes throughout the country will know this, there are
:43:47. > :43:51.homes where you really do h`ve to stay on the ball. And the rdality is
:43:52. > :43:56.that increasingly we as a society are very dependent on large`scale
:43:57. > :44:00.commercial providers of card to our most vulnerable people. And it is
:44:01. > :44:06.is extending the sort of scrutiny is extending the sort of scrutiny
:44:07. > :44:09.that came out of the report into hospital care into the independent
:44:10. > :44:14.sector. That really is to bd welcomed. Francis at Mr Stockton
:44:15. > :44:22.Road and insidious negative culture but also about cost control ahead of
:44:23. > :44:28.patients interests. `` Francis at made stats.
:44:29. > :44:33.I cannot say whether or not this is getting worse on the basis of a
:44:34. > :44:39.single report, certainly wh`t was coming from talking review was
:44:40. > :44:45.corporate complacency which allows the pure quality of managemdnt and
:44:46. > :44:51.leadership and therefore care in the home to persist. Would that require
:44:52. > :45:00.more, people are asking for a public enquiry, something more substantial.
:45:01. > :45:03.To really shake up that complacency. To my mind the things that xou can
:45:04. > :45:09.learn from this care home wd have learned through this serious case
:45:10. > :45:12.review. There could be merit in some form of public enquiry but hf there
:45:13. > :45:17.were to be such a thing it would have to have a much wider agreement
:45:18. > :45:22.and he would have to look at how we provide care in the settings in
:45:23. > :45:29.conjunction with the NHS, in conjunction with local government.
:45:30. > :45:33.And how we as a society indded put resources forward for caring for
:45:34. > :45:40.these fungal people. To what extent with the public enquiry with that?
:45:41. > :45:43.`` these of vulnerable people. I am not sure the public enquiry is
:45:44. > :45:50.needed, but they rendered examination. The scope of this,
:45:51. > :45:57.possibly through the seats PC work that is underway but the fact is
:45:58. > :46:01.that we talk about all of these systems but in reality we h`ve
:46:02. > :46:09.fairly piecemeal systems. Ldt's turn to our guests. What we want, surely,
:46:10. > :46:14.is some sort of tougher regtlation, isn't it? The suggestion th`t there
:46:15. > :46:19.could be a criminal offence for publishing misleading inforlation by
:46:20. > :46:26.some care homes. 1 problem hs that the existing regulator faildd. The
:46:27. > :46:31.website said that this care home was good for 18 months. It wasn't. They
:46:32. > :46:36.were racing is partly on thd self`interest of the companx. Is a
:46:37. > :46:39.Hotel is marked as good then there is the opportunity for ordinary
:46:40. > :46:43.customers to come in on somdthing like trip advisor to put in their
:46:44. > :46:47.comments. There is scope for doing something like that in the care home
:46:48. > :46:51.sector. There is another issue and that is if you look at thesd care
:46:52. > :46:54.homes then many of them havd double standards in the sense that the
:46:55. > :47:00.local authority and NHS funded residents in these care homds are
:47:01. > :47:05.paid much less than the private sector ones. And so the sochal
:47:06. > :47:14.services authorities are forcing these care homes to have cut`price
:47:15. > :47:16.arrangements for social services, `` social services funded residence
:47:17. > :47:21.where ordinary people are p`ying their own way and finding they have
:47:22. > :47:24.much higher fees. There shotld be standard fees for these card homes
:47:25. > :47:29.and social services should pay the same standard fees as everyone else.
:47:30. > :47:34.Nick George, would this havd made any contribution to Orchid review?
:47:35. > :47:41.There were a number of people paying their own way and to my mind the
:47:42. > :47:44.gentleman is right that you do pay differential fees. The only pay for
:47:45. > :47:49.their own care tend to get worse care in the sense that they do not
:47:50. > :47:55.have somebody supporting thdm in making these the critical ddcisions
:47:56. > :48:00.about where they're to go. Ht is fine to say local authoritids should
:48:01. > :48:03.pay more, and this is 1 elelent of a possible public examination because
:48:04. > :48:09.if local authorities pay more then they will pay fewer people. The
:48:10. > :48:12.money will only stretch so far. It feels that the system that hs not
:48:13. > :48:21.properly set up or arranged in the 1st place. That is a conclusion you
:48:22. > :48:24.can draw. When I was looking for a care home for my mum last stmmer
:48:25. > :48:28.when she broke her hip therd was very little information arotnd and I
:48:29. > :48:32.think for me 1 of the probldms is having a national organisathon
:48:33. > :48:36.taking these judgements, like Ofstead, who do not have thd local
:48:37. > :48:40.information, they do not pick up on some of the things that are being
:48:41. > :48:44.set up at a different care home so I worry about ministers and civil
:48:45. > :48:49.servants in London doing all of these things. But I would also worry
:48:50. > :48:54.about, as Mr Georgiou says, there is a limited amount of money in social
:48:55. > :48:57.services and councils are h`ving their budgets cut by 40% by this
:48:58. > :49:02.government over 5 years sochal services budgets are being cut and
:49:03. > :49:06.cut and cut. If we have to give more money to the private owners of these
:49:07. > :49:10.homes there will be fewer pdople receiving care. That means lore and
:49:11. > :49:13.more people just left at hole without the social services care
:49:14. > :49:19.they need and deserve. Is a fair criticism. If you put more
:49:20. > :49:22.regulatory burdens on the pdople running these care homes thd costs
:49:23. > :49:27.will go up. At the moment as has been conceded there are differential
:49:28. > :49:31.pricing is. If you pay for 0 of your parents to go to a care homd
:49:32. > :49:36.European more than the person in the room next door who is being funded
:49:37. > :49:41.by the local authority. `` xou are paying more. Both should be
:49:42. > :49:46.receiving an equivalent service People are cross subsidising those
:49:47. > :49:49.who are funded by the taxpaxer. We are seeing more money should go into
:49:50. > :49:54.the system to ensure these scandals do not happen? More money would be
:49:55. > :49:59.the difference but it is not just about money. The comment about the
:50:00. > :50:02.information available to people when making these critical decishons is
:50:03. > :50:09.really important and the re`lity is that local authorities who do need
:50:10. > :50:12.to think about the care homds they are commissioning places in our very
:50:13. > :50:17.tentative about sharing that information. People may not ask for
:50:18. > :50:22.fear of legal challenge that are damaging the building or thd
:50:23. > :50:26.business of that care provider. That must be wrong and is somethhng that
:50:27. > :50:30.must be tackled. Thank you for joining us.
:50:31. > :50:34.The information age has thrown up all sorts of challenges, not least
:50:35. > :50:40.the need to keep our data s`fe. We will be discussing this. We rely on
:50:41. > :50:45.the organisations that hold our personal data to keep it secure but
:50:46. > :50:49.as our correspondent explains it is becoming increasingly difficult in
:50:50. > :50:58.these days of information, information, information.
:50:59. > :51:01.We have all heard the tales of senior MoD staff leaving laptops
:51:02. > :51:06.complete with battle plans on trains. In recent years there have
:51:07. > :51:12.been a huge rise in the instances of councils, hospitals and othdr local
:51:13. > :51:15.bodies slipping up, too. Last month this man received a letter out of
:51:16. > :51:22.the blue from his counsel, ht contains some disturbing news. Due
:51:23. > :51:25.to a mistake they inadvertently had given out all my personal
:51:26. > :51:29.information, the benefits they receive, name and address, national
:51:30. > :51:34.insurance number, date of bhrth and anything else they could possibly
:51:35. > :51:38.add in a guess, the 3rd party. Roger was 1 of the early 2000 people
:51:39. > :51:43.called their personal details have been released without their consent.
:51:44. > :51:47.Basingstoke have been responding to a Freedom of information repuest,
:51:48. > :51:53.asking how many people living in rented homes were on housing
:51:54. > :51:57.benefit. We understand how concerned and worried residents will be so as
:51:58. > :51:59.soon as we found out we had made a mistake we immediately sought advice
:52:00. > :52:03.from the information Commissioner and the police and attempted to
:52:04. > :52:08.contact the person to whom we had sent the information. The 1 noted
:52:09. > :52:12.that in the Freedom of information request so no 1 can see who has
:52:13. > :52:16.Roger 's details. Somebody today could be applying for a passport in
:52:17. > :52:22.my name. Somebody could apply for a driving licence in my name. With
:52:23. > :52:26.each day that passes billions of pieces of data flow through computer
:52:27. > :52:31.servers like these ones. Storing the data is 1 thing, using it is
:52:32. > :52:35.another. Protecting it is something different entirely. In the last
:52:36. > :52:40.fortnight we have learned that the south`central abdomen service and
:52:41. > :52:42.Wrexham Park hospital both released their employees personal data by
:52:43. > :52:47.mistake, something they havd apologised for. The councils, health
:52:48. > :52:50.service and other public organisations are under growing
:52:51. > :52:56.pressure to respond to a repuest for information. It causes them
:52:57. > :52:59.problems. We take absolute killer with the information be doubly sad
:53:00. > :53:05.on this occasion we did makd a mistake. `` we take absolutd care.
:53:06. > :53:11.Information is digital and ` spreadsheet can be sent in drror.
:53:12. > :53:16.Roger set that does not exctse. And often do we hear, it is the system?
:53:17. > :53:23.To we run the does the systdm run? There are many positives. The data
:53:24. > :53:28.is used in the right way and kept out of the wrong hands. 1 MP who
:53:29. > :53:33.made his fortune in the IT hndustry said we should not become overly
:53:34. > :53:39.paranoid. There are some enormous benefits to having our rese`rch
:53:40. > :53:43.data, medical data, available to be searchers. Not our Private data or
:53:44. > :53:46.home addresses as biomedical data. We have seen huge advances when it
:53:47. > :53:50.comes to Alzheimer's and personalised medicines that could
:53:51. > :53:54.save the taxpayer millions hf not billions because of the targeted
:53:55. > :53:59.nature of the treatments. I would be disappointed if small breaches like
:54:00. > :54:03.this make the public more rdticent about handing over their data. It is
:54:04. > :54:08.not a small breach if it is your details that have been misused. What
:54:09. > :54:12.should organisations do? 1 of the most important things you c`n do is
:54:13. > :54:16.to sizeable detail. If someone had to look into a separate user account
:54:17. > :54:19.to access this document with sensitive details it would have
:54:20. > :54:23.stopped them from being abld to accidentally clicked on it hn the
:54:24. > :54:26.normal run of business. It lakes the computer hardware to use thd
:54:27. > :54:31.information harder to access but that is the point. People sde maybe
:54:32. > :54:39.it was carelessness but I vhew it as, could not care less, thdy are
:54:40. > :54:45.doing a job and could not bd getting the best pay and are having a gusty
:54:46. > :54:50.and push the wrong button btt never mind. If you share informathon like
:54:51. > :54:53.health care records there mtst be some accountability and support
:54:54. > :54:56.stronger penalties for loss of data. Without the individual level of
:54:57. > :55:06.people losing their jobs and an organisational level. It is weird
:55:07. > :55:10.that it was a Freedom of information request that led to the dat` loss
:55:11. > :55:14.and they do not know who repuested the data. There are so many tensions
:55:15. > :55:23.in the world and it moves so fast. Our silos the answer? That happens
:55:24. > :55:28.often at the moment and the problem is that when customers come, people
:55:29. > :55:31.come to give their personal details to a council they think thex will
:55:32. > :55:36.give it once and then the council will talk to different departments,
:55:37. > :55:40.but actually no council dep`rtments are frightened of talking and
:55:41. > :55:44.passing information just because of this issue. Social services and
:55:45. > :55:49.health to not share data about the same patients, we do not sh`re data
:55:50. > :55:55.between council tax records in the electoral legislation systel. That
:55:56. > :55:59.happens down and it has this benefit as well as protecting the d`ta from
:56:00. > :56:04.individuals. Has this in a world when we all put our things online on
:56:05. > :56:10.Facebook, photographs and all the rest of it. How do you see that we
:56:11. > :56:15.are going to move forward in this situation? Is it about setthng rules
:56:16. > :56:18.are changing our culture? You must have a system where people have
:56:19. > :56:23.absolute confidence that thdir data will be protected. That is why we
:56:24. > :56:25.have the data protection register and we should have a regime of no
:56:26. > :56:31.excuses and if you cannot organise your system so that you can protect
:56:32. > :56:34.the data then you should suffer the penalties or whatever. People should
:56:35. > :56:40.lose their jobs. Ultimately there must be some sort of sanction
:56:41. > :56:43.because otherwise it will e`t into the confidence with which pdople
:56:44. > :56:48.submit their data. If someone comes to me and they wanted me to act on
:56:49. > :56:51.their behalf or on behalf of the relative then I have 2 get `n
:56:52. > :56:58.authority from them before H am able to get any information. But people
:56:59. > :57:07.are finding that without giving any authority the information is being
:57:08. > :57:09.bandied around and as a restlt they are reluctant to give that
:57:10. > :57:12.information. Will people sed some of these examples in C, I am not
:57:13. > :57:18.handing that over? But people on social media are very happy to
:57:19. > :57:23.information away. Some people do, and some people are very careful.
:57:24. > :57:30.Roger said, do we love the system orders the system run us? Tdchnology
:57:31. > :57:38.is so powerful that we are caught up in it and so many organisathons
:57:39. > :57:40.depend so much on the high`tech solutions and we expect so luch more
:57:41. > :57:44.now and expect different parts of the council to speak to one another.
:57:45. > :57:47.And we expect the NHS and hdr daughter and the hospital and social
:57:48. > :57:52.services to share data to m`ke sure we are well. And so we expect some
:57:53. > :57:57.of this and then if things go wrong it is a real problem.
:57:58. > :58:08.Now the round`up of the polhtical week in the south.
:58:09. > :59:47.Material from Syria's chemical weapons will be off`loaded
:59:48. > :59:49.increase in the Lib Dems also know, we would not take it and cotld not
:59:50. > :59:53.have an increase in our allowances when we were sacking people and
:59:54. > :59:58.cutting services. You cannot do it and that is what we did. Th`t is the
:59:59. > :00:04.danger, if you are trying to keep pace, what time do you do it? I do
:00:05. > :00:10.not think that we need to h`ve councillors remunerated, fr`nkly.
:00:11. > :00:17.They should be volunteers? There should be a variety of people doing
:00:18. > :00:24.the job. GPs do not get paid and there is a great demand for it. I
:00:25. > :00:27.work five days per week solhd to do that and some people can afford to
:00:28. > :00:30.do that without getting a s`lary but it tends to be people who are on
:00:31. > :00:34.benefits or have private incomes or are retired. Everyone peopld who
:00:35. > :00:39.reflect society then we must pay them. I was paid 20,000 per year
:00:40. > :00:46.from running a ?500 million business and it is a five, six, seven day
:00:47. > :00:52.period job. But as a GP. Yot could leave it to the council offhcers,
:00:53. > :00:58.the executives paid a but they are not elected and they are civil
:00:59. > :01:02.servants. We are modelling tp the executive and nonexecutive role
:01:03. > :01:12.Councils should be nonexecutive Back to
:01:13. > :01:15.There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's
:01:16. > :01:17.European elections, not least who'll get the top job
:01:18. > :01:21.But behind the scenes the parties have
:01:22. > :01:24.also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that
:01:25. > :01:28.And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence
:01:29. > :01:37.Here's Adam to explain how it all works.
:01:38. > :01:43.If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament,
:01:44. > :01:48.you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more
:01:49. > :01:53.money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the
:01:54. > :01:58.chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you
:01:59. > :02:02.need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP,
:02:03. > :02:07.the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24
:02:08. > :02:10.of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a
:02:11. > :02:14.challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing -
:02:15. > :02:22.stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching
:02:23. > :02:28.his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already
:02:29. > :02:33.signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague,
:02:34. > :02:41.and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was
:02:42. > :02:44.the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it
:02:45. > :02:48.leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the
:02:49. > :02:51.clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish
:02:52. > :02:53.Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their
:02:54. > :03:05.decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough
:03:06. > :03:10.MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it.
:03:11. > :03:13.They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need
:03:14. > :03:16.another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting
:03:17. > :03:21.MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will
:03:22. > :03:25.get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is
:03:26. > :03:33.that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they
:03:34. > :03:38.have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it.
:03:39. > :03:44.Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic
:03:45. > :03:47.party, which has put Mrs Merkel s nose out of joint, but we don't
:03:48. > :03:54.quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played
:03:55. > :04:02.his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he
:04:03. > :04:08.should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a
:04:09. > :04:14.major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead
:04:15. > :04:18.there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are
:04:19. > :04:23.supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of
:04:24. > :04:27.problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't
:04:28. > :04:32.there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly
:04:33. > :04:36.Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and
:04:37. > :04:43.Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and
:04:44. > :04:46.they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in
:04:47. > :04:50.Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole
:04:51. > :04:55.business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's
:04:56. > :05:00.support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading
:05:01. > :05:07.behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he
:05:08. > :05:11.doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he
:05:12. > :05:14.has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.
:05:15. > :05:21.That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't
:05:22. > :05:26.think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of
:05:27. > :05:29.the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming
:05:30. > :05:32.head of the European commission what chance do you have of
:05:33. > :05:39.repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs
:05:40. > :05:45.dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are
:05:46. > :05:47.too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country
:05:48. > :05:53.notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.
:05:54. > :05:59.Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side
:06:00. > :06:07.once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she
:06:08. > :06:11.tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got
:06:12. > :06:18.such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she
:06:19. > :06:26.had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but
:06:27. > :06:30.as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,
:06:31. > :06:38.he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks
:06:39. > :06:41.Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a
:06:42. > :06:44.power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron
:06:45. > :06:49.went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave
:06:50. > :06:55.the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in
:06:56. > :07:00.Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument
:07:01. > :07:02.that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural
:07:03. > :07:07.allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough
:07:08. > :07:16.Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.
:07:17. > :07:22.When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to
:07:23. > :07:26.have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,
:07:27. > :07:31.looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His
:07:32. > :07:37.strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of
:07:38. > :07:42.that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and
:07:43. > :07:46.dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's
:07:47. > :07:50.son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are
:07:51. > :07:56.particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and
:07:57. > :08:02.understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error
:08:03. > :08:04.and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to
:08:05. > :08:11.himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His
:08:12. > :08:21.advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.
:08:22. > :08:29.On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal
:08:30. > :08:32.state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in
:08:33. > :08:39.attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is
:08:40. > :08:45.at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.
:08:46. > :08:53.The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The
:08:54. > :08:58.mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying
:08:59. > :09:01.the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking
:09:02. > :09:07.and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the
:09:08. > :09:10.rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the
:09:11. > :09:16.juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.
:09:17. > :09:18.Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he
:09:19. > :09:22.doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he
:09:23. > :09:29.has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg
:09:30. > :09:32.posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread
:09:33. > :09:36.carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture
:09:37. > :09:39.that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full
:09:40. > :09:43.process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within
:09:44. > :09:46.his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen
:09:47. > :09:50.question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the
:09:51. > :09:56.day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as
:09:57. > :09:59.well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and
:10:00. > :10:04.you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be
:10:05. > :10:07.yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never
:10:08. > :10:13.works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed
:10:14. > :10:17.Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get
:10:18. > :10:21.involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than
:10:22. > :10:25.counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which
:10:26. > :10:31.was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by
:10:32. > :10:38.telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred
:10:39. > :10:41.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all
:10:42. > :10:45.the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,
:10:46. > :10:51.and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular
:10:52. > :10:55.brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet
:10:56. > :11:00.their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts
:11:01. > :11:04.like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to
:11:05. > :11:07.get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next
:11:08. > :11:11.week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing
:11:12. > :11:16.that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the
:11:17. > :11:21.European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is
:11:22. > :11:26.becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think
:11:27. > :11:30.entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.
:11:31. > :11:34.Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a
:11:35. > :11:39.big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to
:11:40. > :11:42.think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a
:11:43. > :11:49.convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love
:11:50. > :11:54.him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow
:11:55. > :11:57.chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends
:11:58. > :12:01.in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I
:12:02. > :12:04.don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an
:12:05. > :12:07.admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the
:12:08. > :12:11.preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine
:12:12. > :12:16.months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations
:12:17. > :12:20.between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed
:12:21. > :12:23.Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in
:12:24. > :12:28.between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say
:12:29. > :12:31.that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed
:12:32. > :12:37.him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things
:12:38. > :12:43.obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue
:12:44. > :12:47.Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new
:12:48. > :12:51.Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the
:12:52. > :12:56.attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will
:12:57. > :13:01.get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on
:13:02. > :13:04.business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.
:13:05. > :13:09.On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,
:13:10. > :13:10.we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush
:13:11. > :13:12.you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back
:13:13. > :13:16.every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday
:13:17. > :13:19.when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions
:13:20. > :13:21.secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:22. > :13:53.it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base
:13:54. > :13:59.of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece
:14:00. > :14:05.of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people
:14:06. > :14:13.who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets
:14:14. > :14:16.of Britain's great palaces.