:00:49. > :00:59.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:01:00. > :01:02.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:01:03. > :01:06.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:01:07. > :01:08.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:01:09. > :01:42.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:43. > :01:53.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:54. > :01:56.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:57. > :01:58.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:59. > :02:01.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:02:02. > :02:03.it big in the world of European politic.
:02:04. > :02:06.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:02:07. > :02:10.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:11. > :02:17.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:18. > :02:20.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:21. > :02:35.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:36. > :02:38.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:39. > :02:40.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:41. > :02:43.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:44. > :02:48.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:49. > :02:55.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:56. > :02:58.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:59. > :03:03.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:03:04. > :03:08.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:03:09. > :03:13.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:14. > :03:20.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:21. > :03:30.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:31. > :03:33.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:34. > :03:35.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:36. > :03:38.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:39. > :03:44.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:45. > :03:48.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:49. > :03:55.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:56. > :04:00.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:04:01. > :04:05.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:04:06. > :04:13.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:14. > :04:23.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:24. > :04:28.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:29. > :04:31.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:32. > :04:37.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:38. > :04:40.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:41. > :04:45.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:46. > :04:49.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:50. > :04:53.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:54. > :04:59.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:05:00. > :05:04.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:05:05. > :05:08.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:05:09. > :05:12.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:13. > :05:16.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:17. > :05:21.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:22. > :05:34.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:35. > :05:38.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:39. > :05:41.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:42. > :05:45.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:46. > :05:49.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:50. > :05:51.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:52. > :05:55.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:56. > :05:59.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:06:00. > :06:04.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:06:05. > :06:10.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:11. > :06:14.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:15. > :06:23.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:24. > :06:35.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:36. > :06:40.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:41. > :06:43.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:44. > :06:47.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:48. > :06:51.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:52. > :06:54.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:55. > :06:57.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:58. > :07:02.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:07:03. > :07:04.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:07:05. > :07:13.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:14. > :07:16.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:17. > :07:22.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:23. > :07:28.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:29. > :07:31.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:32. > :07:40.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:41. > :07:43.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:44. > :07:48.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:49. > :07:51.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:52. > :07:57.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:58. > :08:02.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:08:03. > :08:06.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:08:07. > :08:13.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:14. > :08:20.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:21. > :08:26.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:27. > :08:31.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:32. > :08:36.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:37. > :08:39.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:40. > :08:49.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:50. > :08:53.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:54. > :08:57.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:58. > :09:02.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:09:03. > :09:07.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:09:08. > :09:09.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:09:10. > :09:13.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:14. > :09:17.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:18. > :09:21.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:22. > :09:27.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:28. > :09:33.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:34. > :09:36.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:37. > :09:40.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:41. > :09:45.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:46. > :09:48.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:49. > :09:55.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:56. > :10:00.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:10:01. > :10:05.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:10:06. > :10:07.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:10:08. > :10:12.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:13. > :10:17.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:18. > :10:21.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:22. > :10:25.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:26. > :10:29.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:30. > :10:32.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:33. > :10:36.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:37. > :10:42.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:43. > :10:48.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:49. > :10:51.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:52. > :10:55.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:56. > :10:59.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:11:00. > :11:06.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:11:07. > :11:09.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:11:10. > :11:14.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:15. > :11:16.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:17. > :11:24.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:25. > :11:28.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:29. > :11:32.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:33. > :11:36.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:37. > :11:41.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:42. > :11:44.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:45. > :11:47.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:48. > :11:52.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:53. > :11:56.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:57. > :12:01.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:12:02. > :12:04.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:12:05. > :12:11.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:12. > :12:14.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:15. > :12:19.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:20. > :12:24.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:25. > :12:28.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:29. > :12:32.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:33. > :12:36.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:37. > :12:41.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:42. > :12:45.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:46. > :12:50.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:51. > :12:56.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:57. > :13:03.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:13:04. > :13:05.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:13:06. > :13:09.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:13:10. > :13:14.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:15. > :13:16.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:17. > :13:21.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:22. > :13:25.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:26. > :13:29.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:30. > :13:40.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:41. > :13:42.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:43. > :13:45.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:46. > :13:47.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:48. > :13:51.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:52. > :13:55.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:56. > :13:58.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:59. > :14:02.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:14:03. > :14:07.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:14:08. > :14:10.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:11. > :14:16.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:17. > :14:22.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:23. > :14:25.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:26. > :14:29.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:30. > :14:32.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:33. > :14:36.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:37. > :14:39.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:40. > :14:44.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:45. > :14:51.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:52. > :14:54.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:55. > :14:56.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:57. > :14:59.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:15:00. > :15:02.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:15:03. > :15:23.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:24. > :15:27.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:28. > :15:35.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:36. > :15:37.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:38. > :15:46.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:47. > :15:51.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:52. > :15:56.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:57. > :16:00.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:16:01. > :16:08.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:16:09. > :16:14.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:15. > :16:18.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:19. > :16:24.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:25. > :16:29.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:30. > :16:34.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:35. > :16:39.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:40. > :16:44.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:45. > :16:50.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:51. > :16:54.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:55. > :17:01.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:17:02. > :17:05.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:17:06. > :17:10.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:11. > :17:15.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:16. > :17:20.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:21. > :17:25.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:26. > :17:30.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:31. > :17:35.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:36. > :17:39.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:40. > :17:45.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:46. > :17:49.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:50. > :17:54.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:55. > :18:05.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:18:06. > :18:09.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:10. > :18:16.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:17. > :18:21.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:22. > :18:25.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:26. > :18:31.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:32. > :18:35.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:36. > :18:42.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:43. > :18:45.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:46. > :18:47.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister,
:18:48. > :20:33.for, friendships overseas are prejudiced, and they conceive that
:20:34. > :20:40.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:41. > :20:45.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:46. > :20:55.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:56. > :21:07.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:21:08. > :21:13.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:14. > :21:22.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:23. > :21:31.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:32. > :21:35.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:36. > :21:41.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:42. > :21:45.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:46. > :21:57.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:58. > :22:01.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:22:02. > :22:05.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:22:06. > :22:10.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:22:11. > :22:16.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:17. > :22:21.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:22. > :22:28.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:29. > :22:38.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:39. > :22:43.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:44. > :22:47.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:48. > :22:54.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:55. > :22:58.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:59. > :23:06.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:23:07. > :23:10.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:23:11. > :23:15.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:16. > :23:22.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:23. > :23:25.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:26. > :23:35.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:36. > :23:38.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:39. > :23:49.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:50. > :23:53.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:54. > :24:00.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:24:01. > :24:03.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:24:04. > :24:09.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:24:10. > :24:14.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:15. > :24:21.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:22. > :24:27.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:28. > :24:35.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:36. > :24:44.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:45. > :24:48.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:49. > :24:52.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:53. > :24:58.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:59. > :25:03.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:25:04. > :25:09.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:25:10. > :25:14.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:15. > :25:18.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:19. > :25:34.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:35. > :25:39.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:40. > :25:42.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:43. > :25:48.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:49. > :25:52.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:53. > :25:59.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:26:00. > :26:04.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:26:05. > :26:09.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:26:10. > :26:13.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:14. > :26:24.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:25. > :26:28.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:29. > :26:40.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:41. > :26:43.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:44. > :26:49.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:50. > :26:55.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:56. > :26:59.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:27:00. > :27:05.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:27:06. > :27:10.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:27:11. > :27:17.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:18. > :27:30.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:31. > :27:33.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:34. > :27:36.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:37. > :27:40.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:41. > :27:49.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:50. > :27:59.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:28:00. > :28:03.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:28:04. > :28:08.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:28:09. > :28:13.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:14. > :28:18.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:19. > :28:23.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:24. > :28:27.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:28. > :28:31.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:32. > :28:36.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:37. > :28:39.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:40. > :28:46.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:47. > :28:51.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:52. > :28:56.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:57. > :29:01.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:29:02. > :29:06.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:29:07. > :29:10.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:29:11. > :29:15.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:16. > :29:20.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:21. > :29:24.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:25. > :29:28.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:29. > :29:34.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:35. > :29:39.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:40. > :29:43.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:44. > :29:47.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:48. > :29:51.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:52. > :29:57.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:58. > :30:07.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:30:08. > :30:12.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:13. > :30:16.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:17. > :30:20.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:21. > :30:25.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:26. > :30:29.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:30. > :30:39.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:40. > :30:44.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:45. > :30:49.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:50. > :30:54.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:55. > :30:57.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:58. > :31:03.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:31:04. > :31:06.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:31:07. > :31:10.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:31:11. > :31:14.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:15. > :31:17.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:18. > :31:21.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:22. > :31:26.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:27. > :31:31.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:32. > :31:33.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:34. > :31:39.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:40. > :31:44.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:45. > :31:48.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:49. > :31:55.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:56. > :31:59.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:32:00. > :32:05.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:32:06. > :32:09.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:32:10. > :32:14.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:15. > :32:17.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:18. > :32:20.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:21. > :32:25.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:26. > :32:28.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:29. > :32:31.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:32. > :32:37.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:38. > :32:41.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:42. > :32:44.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:45. > :32:48.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:49. > :32:52.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:53. > :32:54.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:55. > :32:57.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:58. > :32:59.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:33:00. > :33:01.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:33:02. > :33:08.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:33:09. > :33:10.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:33:11. > :33:16.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:17. > :33:20.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:21. > :33:28.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:29. > :33:34.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:35. > :33:41.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:42. > :33:45.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:46. > :33:48.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:49. > :33:52.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:53. > :33:56.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:57. > :34:01.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:34:02. > :34:07.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:34:08. > :34:10.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:34:11. > :34:21.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:22. > :34:22.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:23. > :34:22.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:23. > :34:54.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:55. > :35:00.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:35:01. > :35:02.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:35:03. > :35:05.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:35:06. > :35:08.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:35:09. > :35:11.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:12. > :35:16.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:17. > :35:20.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:21. > :35:23.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:24. > :35:26.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:27. > :35:31.However all the indications are it could be
:35:32. > :35:35.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:36. > :35:41.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:42. > :35:44.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:45. > :35:47.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:48. > :36:02.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:36:03. > :36:09.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:36:10. > :36:13.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:14. > :36:14.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:15. > :36:19.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:20. > :36:20.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:21. > :36:26.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:27. > :36:31.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:32. > :36:35.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:36. > :36:39.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:40. > :36:46.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:47. > :36:49.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:50. > :36:58.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:59. > :37:03.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:37:04. > :37:06.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:37:07. > :37:08.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:37:09. > :37:18.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:19. > :37:20.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:21. > :37:25.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:26. > :37:33.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:34. > :37:40.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:41. > :37:44.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:45. > :37:47.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:48. > :37:52.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:53. > :37:55.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:56. > :37:58.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:59. > :38:01.that is getting worse with single election.
:38:02. > :38:03.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:38:04. > :38:06.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:38:07. > :38:37.The citizen journalists who have been taking to the streets of Dorset
:38:38. > :38:42.to highlight some of their problems getting around.
:38:43. > :38:44.Almost a decade on from legislation that was stpposed
:38:45. > :40:18.to open up streets and buildings, it seems there's a long way to go yet.
:40:19. > :40:24.We have legislation for that in the NHS, for example.
:40:25. > :40:28.It's about people being takdn seriously and procedures properly
:40:29. > :40:33.being undertaken when these allegations are lade
:40:34. > :40:37.The reports repeatedly talk about people who express
:40:38. > :40:47.their concerns and their dotbts and their worries and those
:40:48. > :40:49.concerns disappear and that's what we must never get into again.
:40:50. > :40:54.We all have a responsibilitx when we look after young vulnerable people,
:40:55. > :40:57.We have a statutory ` county councils have
:40:58. > :41:01.You can't value that more hhghly than anything else
:41:02. > :41:06.because people look to us and we need to encourage whistle`blowers
:41:07. > :41:10.because, unfortunately, somd whistle`blowers who have actually
:41:11. > :41:15.done really morally absolutdly the right thing have sufferdd.
:41:16. > :41:20.Have really been ostracised and what a shame, because they did
:41:21. > :41:26.So some people's attitudes to the whistle`blowers...
:41:27. > :41:29.But there's something we all ought to talk about ` the standards,
:41:30. > :41:41.We have to safeguard these vulnerable people
:41:42. > :41:45.While we are talking about giving young people a voice,
:41:46. > :41:48.according to the last census there are 166,000 young carers in the UK.
:41:49. > :41:50.This weekend, 1500 of them are getting together
:41:51. > :41:56.at Curdridge in Hampshire to get a chance to get away from all of
:41:57. > :41:58.those adult responsibilities at the Young Carers' Festival, org`nised
:41:59. > :42:11.With me now is Lily Caprani from the Children's Society
:42:12. > :42:19.She's got a few different disabilities,
:42:20. > :42:22.Mental illnesses, depression and some other things
:42:23. > :42:27.You've got to do a bit of physical work and a bit
:42:28. > :42:35.I've got to be there emotionally for her, I've got to be somd that
:42:36. > :42:43.issue can lean on, both physically and emotion`lly
:42:44. > :42:54.I've been doing it since I was 1, about eight years.
:42:55. > :42:58.Have you noticed a change in the way that people relate to you and her?
:42:59. > :43:00.Are things getting better the young carers?
:43:01. > :43:02.Definitely but I would say that's never been
:43:03. > :43:05.We've got a lot of fantastic support.
:43:06. > :43:16.You're involved, they deal with the whole falily
:43:17. > :43:18.Which is, Lily, what your society has been pushing for
:43:19. > :43:23.For years we've been saying that when care and support is offered to
:43:24. > :43:27.the whole family, a young c`rer can do the care they want to do for the
:43:28. > :43:31.person they love but they gdt the right support so it doesn't affect
:43:32. > :43:33.their education and their hdalth and their life.
:43:34. > :43:34.Unfortunately, that's not the case everywhdre
:43:35. > :43:38.in the country and many young carers go under the radar and are puietly
:43:39. > :43:41.getting on with it but unfortunately not getting the support thex need.
:43:42. > :43:43.We have now got new legislation which, hopefully, if it works,
:43:44. > :43:49.It's a benchmark because not all local authorities do
:43:50. > :43:52.as they are supposed to, but what do you hope will change?
:43:53. > :43:55.When there's somebody in thd family ` an adult or another child `
:43:56. > :43:58.who is disabled and they nedd some care, they get an assessment
:43:59. > :44:01.but they don't always then `ssess what the whole family needs
:44:02. > :44:05.It should mean that if there is a young person who is
:44:06. > :44:08.taking up the slack for the care, that gets recognised
:44:09. > :44:18.It's absolutely got to happdn, otherwise young carers will find
:44:19. > :44:21.it starts to affect their lhves and education, which is unf`ir.
:44:22. > :44:23.And it does affect carers' education, doesn't it?
:44:24. > :44:25.Across the country, if you look nationally, on `verage,
:44:26. > :44:29.young people who been caring for somebody in the family end tp with
:44:30. > :44:32.It is completely avoidable, completely unfair.
:44:33. > :44:35.It's a terrible cost to thel but it's also a cost to society, really.
:44:36. > :44:40.We're wasting their potenti`l and it doesn't need to happdn.
:44:41. > :44:44.You don't want people to feel sorry for you.
:44:45. > :44:49.Here you are on the programle, doing a great job.
:44:50. > :44:53.But you need time to enjoy xour childhood and you might losd that.
:44:54. > :44:59.It does almost feel like I've been forced
:45:00. > :45:03.I was commenting on your retro hairstyle!
:45:04. > :45:11.But seriously, do you worry about your mum, as you get older, and who
:45:12. > :45:16.is going to look after her hf you want to go off and do other things?
:45:17. > :45:19.Yeah, I've thought about moving out a few times but I've always been
:45:20. > :45:23.worried about who would be there to look after her when I'm gond.
:45:24. > :45:36.Giving them the festival is quite a thing.
:45:37. > :45:49.Talk to any carer and it is inspirational what they will do
:45:50. > :45:56.The young carers are just f`ntastic and when I've spoken to people,
:45:57. > :45:58.the stories that they have `nd how they're managing... There's
:45:59. > :46:01.something right about what Ben says about experiencing your childhood
:46:02. > :46:06.That does get pushed back and we need to encourage th`t.
:46:07. > :46:13.We've just done a new schemd in West Sussex, we've got volunteers
:46:14. > :46:16.who will drive young carers to an evening out, a youth club,
:46:17. > :46:20.doing something so they don't lose contact because all of that is part
:46:21. > :46:26.But if you want an inspirathonal story, talk to young carers.
:46:27. > :46:30.Giving people the label of "young carer" `
:46:31. > :46:35.maybe not all young people would identify themselves as caring but
:46:36. > :46:47.That's a continuing enormous problem nationally and I really want to give
:46:48. > :46:51.three cheers for the young carers and the festival.
:46:52. > :46:56.I hear an enormous amount from those young carers
:46:57. > :47:01.but they are just the tip of the iceberg and even the official
:47:02. > :47:07.170,000 young people are caring across the country.
:47:08. > :47:11.That's probably about half of what is really the case `nd,
:47:12. > :47:15.in many instances, those ard young people who are not telling `nybody
:47:16. > :47:28.That means that maybe they have absences from school or homd were
:47:29. > :47:31.coming in late `` homework, which is just looked at as something
:47:32. > :47:35.where they can't be bothered or their having other problems.
:47:36. > :47:36.Getting accurate information and support
:47:37. > :47:40.But getting that accurate information about who is re`lly
:47:41. > :47:44.doing this and they don't pdrhaps want to be identified and l`belled
:47:45. > :47:49.as a carer because that is `lso quite often an issue in terls of,
:47:50. > :47:57.they can't grow to meet their friends
:47:58. > :48:00.because they've got to go and sort their mum out or whatever it is
:48:01. > :48:03.It's got to be done and very sensitively and carefully
:48:04. > :48:05.and understanding the whole life of that young person, not jtst
:48:06. > :48:10.It is taking the youngsters seriously.
:48:11. > :48:14.Here is a crazy idea ` why don't we give people under 18 the vote?
:48:15. > :48:20.Do you think it's 16`year`olds voted ` I won't ask you for the official
:48:21. > :48:32.I think we might need more teaching in schools regarding the issue.
:48:33. > :48:44.It's identifying and working with people and not
:48:45. > :48:49.putting people in a box bec`use you're a whole person and you just
:48:50. > :48:53.You've got to deal with it sensitively
:48:54. > :48:59.Being a young carer is incredibly complex.
:49:00. > :49:01.One thing you'd like to see improved?
:49:02. > :49:05.You've got the legislation, a bit of a culture change.
:49:06. > :49:07.The legislation has to turn into practice.
:49:08. > :49:10.The proof will be in the pudding so every local authority nedds to
:49:11. > :49:14.implement it now and make stre no young person is taking up the slack
:49:15. > :49:25.A Dorset group campaigning for better access for peopld with
:49:26. > :49:29.disabilities has begun a new project to give an insight into the everyday
:49:30. > :49:34.They're doing it in a rather clever way ` by training a dozen mdmbers to
:49:35. > :49:35.become citizen journalists, Hillman their experiences.
:49:36. > :49:43.We've been out in Poole to see this sort of issues
:49:44. > :50:00.This film was made to highlhght local accessibility issues
:50:01. > :50:06.It was produced by, and stars, Kelvin Trevitt, who was born
:50:07. > :50:11.without limbs and has spent almost 50 years in a wheelchair.
:50:12. > :50:13.He volunteers, has worked as a social workdr,
:50:14. > :50:19.But like many wheelchair usdrs in Dorset, even a trip to
:50:20. > :50:33.This area is a particular problem because during the winter months,
:50:34. > :50:36.when it was really dark, a xoung girl in a wheelchair actually fell
:50:37. > :50:45.What's the chance of me getting a train here today?
:50:46. > :50:54.This type of pavement gives you a real juddery ride.
:50:55. > :50:59.For people with a back problem, it's extremely difficult.
:51:00. > :51:01.Kelvin and a dozen others have been trained
:51:02. > :51:05.to become citizen journalists, recording their experiences
:51:06. > :51:09.battling the pavements and fighting to access services, too.
:51:10. > :51:11.Their films are already havhng an impact.
:51:12. > :51:25.We filmed it and I sent it to the council and they agreed that it
:51:26. > :51:31.wasn't acceptable that wheelchair users had to go into the ro`d so it
:51:32. > :51:39.I think we do really well in this borough in terms
:51:40. > :51:45.of our quality is agenda but there's always room for improvement so
:51:46. > :51:55.if there are some accessibility issues that people find, we're very
:51:56. > :51:57.interested to hear about thdm. `` our equalities agenda.
:51:58. > :51:59.It's nine years since disabhlity legislation was enacted.
:52:00. > :52:09.And the sort of things the citizen journalists are telling
:52:10. > :52:12.you ` the sort of thing that should have been sorted out all along.
:52:13. > :52:14.We are very responsive to accessibility issues.
:52:15. > :52:17.That's why we need this project to find out what the problems `re
:52:18. > :52:22.Is it a shame that it is down to them to find these hssues?
:52:23. > :52:29.The citizen journalists' mahn bugbear is Access ability,
:52:30. > :52:31.or rather the lack of it. `` accessibility.
:52:32. > :52:37.This Bournemouth train stathon has a lift that hasn't been used
:52:38. > :52:40.That means there's no disabled access to the platforms below
:52:41. > :52:43.South West Trains will offer a free pre`booked taxi servhce to
:52:44. > :52:46.connect with other stations nearby but campaigners say that isn't good
:52:47. > :52:51.The group have now set their sights a little higher.
:52:52. > :53:00.Their efforts have even been raised in Parliament.
:53:01. > :53:03.I wrote to South West Trains and they said, "
:53:04. > :53:13.Wane the Government because it isn't part of the franchise agreelent .
:53:14. > :53:17.`` blame the Government. All the people of Bournemouth want hs
:53:18. > :53:21.the lifts to be working so H'd like the minister to come to Bournemouth
:53:22. > :53:24.The transport secretary will now visit next month.
:53:25. > :53:26.Access Dorset says progress is slow going.
:53:27. > :53:28.It's unacceptable that disabled people who have
:53:29. > :53:31.the legal right to fair accdss to goods and services since 1985 have
:53:32. > :53:34.to wait until 2014 and they still can't access their train st`tion.
:53:35. > :53:38.Disabled people want to go to work, trains, they want to come and visit
:53:39. > :53:40.this destination, and they should be able to access this station.
:53:41. > :53:43.It is about inclusion, which is absolutely essential for a healthy
:53:44. > :53:50.The Access Dorset office volunteers volunteers say that citizen
:53:51. > :53:52.journalism works and really gives them a voice.
:53:53. > :53:56.I think it just gets you out there and encourages you to do thhngs
:53:57. > :53:59.That's the thing I've found the most surprising, really, how easx it is
:54:00. > :54:06.It seems a very natural way to do it.
:54:07. > :54:09.Citizen journalism like this enables users to have more of a say
:54:10. > :54:19.Sorry, mate, it's disgusting, isn't it?
:54:20. > :54:23.That's the thing that I found the best.
:54:24. > :54:35.Ten years since the Disability Discrilination
:54:36. > :54:39.Act and there they are, still not able to get what is needed.
:54:40. > :54:41.One side blaming another ` that isn't right.
:54:42. > :54:44.The 2004 legislation which made access in general
:54:45. > :54:50.a right ` and it had to be `ccess in the same place as anybody else. .
:54:51. > :54:59.Anticipating the needs of disabled people?
:55:00. > :55:02.Not somebody deciding that there was going to be special provision
:55:03. > :55:05.Transport was not included in that piece of legislation
:55:06. > :55:10.And one of the abiding things in a lot of transport services is
:55:11. > :55:14.that people say they will ptt on a special service, get them there by
:55:15. > :55:27.Can you move too quickly with some of these things
:55:28. > :55:44.You can understand why a new development maybe has provision that
:55:45. > :55:50.everything... I think the access groups are absolutely right to
:55:51. > :55:56.highlight the issues becausd they actually see the problem as it is
:55:57. > :55:59.and there's no point in us looking at it so that it's bottom up.
:56:00. > :56:02.It's good to see it through their eyes, isn't it?
:56:03. > :56:05.We had a situation about closing a railway bridge over a levdl
:56:06. > :56:08.crossing and, actually, what we saw was how they viewed the Accdss group
:56:09. > :56:11.was very different to what we saw because, obviously, their position
:56:12. > :56:26.And we would need to do what they can
:56:27. > :56:32.`` we need to do what we can. There is one group who will say that you
:56:33. > :56:39.Are you? We are listening to that group but there are other groups
:56:40. > :56:45.We've just been running a campaign to save the local area
:56:46. > :56:47.network fund, a little fund which achieves a huge amount.
:56:48. > :56:50.We are about finding where we cannot necessarily put massive amotnts
:56:51. > :56:53.of money but it's fallen so money that really delivers.
:56:54. > :56:55.`` small amounts of money that really delivers.
:56:56. > :56:59.We've got lots of examples across the county with that.
:57:00. > :57:05.Some people might have scoffed at the citizen journalists,
:57:06. > :57:08.giving money to disabled people to go out. But in this situation,
:57:09. > :57:14.It puts the issue where it should be, which is how can you, as a
:57:15. > :57:17.disabled person, get around properly and what are the concerns for you,
:57:18. > :57:24.not the concerns of somebodx surveying the issue from af`r?
:57:25. > :57:27.It's absolutely right that ht needs to be done in that wax.
:57:28. > :57:31.It throws up all sorts of issues that a lot of people think
:57:32. > :57:40.Yes, I think that's one of the key gains.
:57:41. > :57:48.Getting on planes, for example, having to pay double effecthvely
:57:49. > :57:52.because you may have an assistant or a carer with you
:57:53. > :58:05.Those are the sorts of things we need to look for to
:58:06. > :58:46.Now our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.
:58:47. > :58:49.Southampton MP John Denham this week called for more support for teachers
:58:50. > :00:16.you. Well, that's the reason why the Queen is not able to come
:00:17. > :00:19.into the Commons and Black Rod has to bash on the door,
:00:20. > :00:22.because five soldiers essentially came to try and arrest the speaker
:00:23. > :00:26.I don't quite think that Desmond Swain or Penny Mord`unt are
:00:27. > :00:33.going to run out of their sdats and run off with the speaker solehow.
:00:34. > :00:36.And you were saying earlier that it's important that employers are
:00:37. > :00:41.There is no question about reservists.
:00:42. > :00:45.We've had two big wars over the last ten years,
:00:46. > :00:55.They keep us safe in this country and they ard doing
:00:56. > :01:01.Perhaps we should be allowed to see them in their uniforms lore
:01:02. > :01:07.That is the Sunday Politics in the South for this Sundax.
:01:08. > :01:12.Thank you to my guests, Louhse Goldsmith and Alan Whitehead.
:01:13. > :01:14.Don't forget to keep up`to`date with Southern politics
:01:15. > :01:24.The address is on the bottol of the screen but, for now, back to Andrew.
:01:25. > :01:29.been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to
:01:30. > :01:34.both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:35. > :01:36.Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks
:01:37. > :01:39.about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come
:01:40. > :01:43.from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.
:01:44. > :01:47.In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,
:01:48. > :01:50."instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus
:01:51. > :01:53.groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of
:01:54. > :01:56.the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any
:01:57. > :02:06.He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a
:02:07. > :02:19.The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had
:02:20. > :02:28.I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is
:02:29. > :02:35.excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250
:02:36. > :02:41.pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in
:02:42. > :02:45.the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution
:02:46. > :02:49.long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new
:02:50. > :02:55.investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really
:02:56. > :03:02.on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so
:03:03. > :03:06.let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you
:03:07. > :03:09.don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as
:03:10. > :03:12.serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks
:03:13. > :03:16.about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled
:03:17. > :03:20.out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite
:03:21. > :03:25.saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.
:03:26. > :03:29.When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult
:03:30. > :03:33.for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He
:03:34. > :03:37.was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being
:03:38. > :03:40.criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is
:03:41. > :03:43.particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician
:03:44. > :03:50.of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David
:03:51. > :03:54.Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is
:03:55. > :04:00.wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I
:04:01. > :04:03.would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised
:04:04. > :04:09.immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical
:04:10. > :04:12.and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public
:04:13. > :04:16.does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If
:04:17. > :04:19.anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a
:04:20. > :04:22.Labour government could do and nervous about the economic
:04:23. > :04:28.reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the
:04:29. > :04:33.notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in
:04:34. > :04:36.night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,
:04:37. > :04:40.because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus
:04:41. > :04:44.of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's
:04:45. > :04:47.interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour
:04:48. > :04:52.Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British
:04:53. > :04:57.people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander
:04:58. > :05:02.offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices
:05:03. > :05:05.and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has
:05:06. > :05:11.real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is
:05:12. > :05:15.John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy
:05:16. > :05:19.review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the
:05:20. > :05:24.policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the
:05:25. > :05:28.problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong
:05:29. > :05:32.opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they
:05:33. > :05:35.maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have
:05:36. > :05:40.in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise
:05:41. > :05:43.after his former director of communications was convicted
:05:44. > :05:44.of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,
:05:45. > :05:48.Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared
:05:49. > :05:58.of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for
:05:59. > :06:02.employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was
:06:03. > :06:05.given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.
:06:06. > :06:09.I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full
:06:10. > :06:14.and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I
:06:15. > :06:19.employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When
:06:20. > :06:23.I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,
:06:24. > :06:29.politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was
:06:30. > :06:37.not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a
:06:38. > :06:41.great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another
:06:42. > :06:47.person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an
:06:48. > :06:50.unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there
:06:51. > :06:54.is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts
:06:55. > :06:56.Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings
:06:57. > :07:02.criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr
:07:03. > :07:06.Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when
:07:07. > :07:09.one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been
:07:10. > :07:14.the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the
:07:15. > :07:16.other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be
:07:17. > :07:20.the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised
:07:21. > :07:24.questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political
:07:25. > :07:27.damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was
:07:28. > :07:30.sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the
:07:31. > :07:36.date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it
:07:37. > :07:42.was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the
:07:43. > :07:45.general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am
:07:46. > :07:49.sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in
:07:50. > :07:53.recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that
:07:54. > :07:57.Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a
:07:58. > :08:01.slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears
:08:02. > :08:06.the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with
:08:07. > :08:10.Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be
:08:11. > :08:13.lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when
:08:14. > :08:16.there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the
:08:17. > :08:20.News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made
:08:21. > :08:25.a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out
:08:26. > :08:29.she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding
:08:30. > :08:35.what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her
:08:36. > :08:38.party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said
:08:39. > :08:43.that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one
:08:44. > :08:49.person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the
:08:50. > :08:52.SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime
:08:53. > :08:55.Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s
:08:56. > :09:03.very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed
:09:04. > :09:05.Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that
:09:06. > :09:11.is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week
:09:12. > :09:14.the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the
:09:15. > :09:18.polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are
:09:19. > :09:20.having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's
:09:21. > :09:25.Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The
:09:26. > :09:29.one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in
:09:30. > :09:33.the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.
:09:34. > :09:37.The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the
:09:38. > :09:41.Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are
:09:42. > :09:43.complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I
:09:44. > :09:45.don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose
:09:46. > :09:48.Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had
:09:49. > :09:51.trouble keeping his views about the environment
:09:52. > :09:53.and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's
:09:54. > :09:56.passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be
:09:57. > :09:58.broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,
:09:59. > :10:03.David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence
:10:04. > :10:10.his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was
:10:11. > :10:15.not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very
:10:16. > :10:19.keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had
:10:20. > :10:23.what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their
:10:24. > :10:25.background, where as I wanted to change their background.
:10:26. > :10:28.And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist
:10:29. > :10:36.Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of
:10:37. > :10:39.policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of
:10:40. > :10:45.grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a
:10:46. > :10:49.principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and
:10:50. > :10:53.judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much
:10:54. > :10:57.contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on
:10:58. > :11:02.the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it
:11:03. > :11:06.hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future
:11:07. > :11:09.monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to
:11:10. > :11:14.influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence
:11:15. > :11:19.and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private
:11:20. > :11:25.one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are
:11:26. > :11:29.interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes
:11:30. > :11:31.a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in
:11:32. > :11:36.the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural
:11:37. > :11:40.development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which
:11:41. > :11:42.no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not
:11:43. > :11:49.convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his
:11:50. > :11:55.position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously
:11:56. > :12:01.described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66
:12:02. > :12:06.and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the
:12:07. > :12:09.powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the
:12:10. > :12:13.Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the
:12:14. > :12:16.problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but
:12:17. > :12:22.you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses
:12:23. > :12:26.that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing
:12:27. > :12:32.is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has
:12:33. > :12:35.got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win
:12:36. > :12:39.either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will
:12:40. > :12:43.be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and
:12:44. > :12:47.when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,
:12:48. > :12:53.stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are
:12:54. > :12:56.encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama
:12:57. > :13:00.has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.
:13:01. > :13:04.Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering
:13:05. > :13:08.solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way
:13:09. > :13:11.with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can
:13:12. > :13:16.complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can
:13:17. > :13:19.become a party political issue. He has had some influence on
:13:20. > :13:20.architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better
:13:21. > :13:22.than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2
:13:23. > :13:27.at 11:00am We'll be back here
:13:28. > :13:32.at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:33. > :13:36.it's the Sunday Politics.