:00:36. > :00:42.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:43. > :00:44.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:45. > :00:52.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:53. > :00:55.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:56. > :01:01.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:02. > :01:03.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:04. > :01:06.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:07. > :01:08.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:09. > :01:11.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:12. > :01:15.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:16. > :01:22.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:23. > :01:24.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:25. > :01:33.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:34. > :01:35.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:36. > :01:43.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown
:01:44. > :01:45.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:46. > :02:00.pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.
:02:01. > :02:12.step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?
:02:13. > :02:15.Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that
:02:16. > :02:17.Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the
:02:18. > :02:22.The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American
:02:23. > :02:24.journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently
:02:25. > :02:28.beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.
:02:29. > :02:30.The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,
:02:31. > :02:34.also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK
:02:35. > :02:36.Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed
:02:37. > :02:41.His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he
:02:42. > :02:48.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said
:02:49. > :02:51.his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary
:02:52. > :03:01.Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power
:03:02. > :03:03.to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,
:03:04. > :03:08.Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.
:03:09. > :03:12.Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr
:03:13. > :03:26.Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.
:03:27. > :03:32.Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who
:03:33. > :03:38.have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David
:03:39. > :03:41.Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action
:03:42. > :03:53.Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or
:03:54. > :03:58.any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a
:03:59. > :04:01.will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in
:04:02. > :04:07.that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a
:04:08. > :04:09.collective response to what is a threat to humanity.
:04:10. > :04:11.Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now
:04:12. > :04:23.Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet
:04:24. > :04:28.again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options
:04:29. > :04:33.facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I
:04:34. > :04:39.think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these
:04:40. > :04:42.hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government
:04:43. > :04:46.policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states
:04:47. > :04:51.are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to
:04:52. > :04:56.make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might
:04:57. > :05:00.be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the
:05:01. > :05:09.past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the
:05:10. > :05:12.hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one
:05:13. > :05:16.there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the
:05:17. > :05:25.difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.
:05:26. > :05:28.Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction
:05:29. > :05:35.the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in
:05:36. > :05:40.perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not
:05:41. > :05:44.just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining
:05:45. > :05:46.his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about
:05:47. > :05:52.building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And
:05:53. > :05:57.training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the
:05:58. > :06:07.UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been
:06:08. > :06:12.arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually
:06:13. > :06:17.conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We
:06:18. > :06:28.have not got a clear answer from government and that is something
:06:29. > :06:32.where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible
:06:33. > :06:35.we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I
:06:36. > :06:40.think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to
:06:41. > :06:44.a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however
:06:45. > :06:47.terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play
:06:48. > :06:52.more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait
:06:53. > :07:00.see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would
:07:01. > :07:03.like to see would be British and American special forces going in and
:07:04. > :07:08.getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is
:07:09. > :07:13.very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few
:07:14. > :07:16.months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the
:07:17. > :07:18.ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of
:07:19. > :07:23.kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so
:07:24. > :07:27.you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get
:07:28. > :07:31.the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a
:07:32. > :07:34.possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly
:07:35. > :07:39.challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating
:07:40. > :07:42.within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are
:07:43. > :07:47.looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,
:07:48. > :07:49.thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed
:07:50. > :07:54.to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever
:07:55. > :08:00.lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked
:08:01. > :08:03.like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,
:08:04. > :08:05.though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO
:08:06. > :08:08.would carry the day. The new consensus is that
:08:09. > :08:22.it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of
:08:23. > :08:25.the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign
:08:26. > :08:29.had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the
:08:30. > :08:35.undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of
:08:36. > :08:40.63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move
:08:41. > :08:46.into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as
:08:47. > :08:48.the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the
:08:49. > :08:53.average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.
:08:54. > :08:58.There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the
:08:59. > :09:02.first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the
:09:03. > :09:12.other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by
:09:13. > :09:19.Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and
:09:20. > :09:23.there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have
:09:24. > :09:29.the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but
:09:30. > :09:33.their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another
:09:34. > :09:44.suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against
:09:45. > :09:51.50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with
:09:52. > :09:55.yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are
:09:56. > :09:58.undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling
:09:59. > :09:59.booths that could make all the difference.
:10:00. > :10:04.campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.
:10:05. > :10:11.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the
:10:12. > :10:16.Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You
:10:17. > :10:19.sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working
:10:20. > :10:22.people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,
:10:23. > :10:28.a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been
:10:29. > :10:31.achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being
:10:32. > :10:36.thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the
:10:37. > :10:39.underlying interests of working people are on working on the
:10:40. > :10:43.relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very
:10:44. > :10:46.messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the
:10:47. > :10:52.children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,
:10:53. > :10:55.and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded
:10:56. > :10:59.that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK
:11:00. > :11:05.context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the
:11:06. > :11:09.opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in
:11:10. > :11:15.taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on
:11:16. > :11:19.companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest
:11:20. > :11:26.of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,
:11:27. > :11:29.country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public
:11:30. > :11:35.expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have
:11:36. > :11:38.Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The
:11:39. > :11:43.British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex
:11:44. > :11:51.Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.
:11:52. > :11:54.And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,
:11:55. > :11:58.the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be
:11:59. > :12:01.gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working
:12:02. > :12:05.people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in
:12:06. > :12:09.fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,
:12:10. > :12:14.Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely
:12:15. > :12:20.if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the
:12:21. > :12:24.way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But
:12:25. > :12:32.Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The
:12:33. > :12:36.polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the
:12:37. > :12:41.average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip
:12:42. > :12:45.and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as
:12:46. > :12:47.Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour
:12:48. > :12:54.government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a
:12:55. > :12:58.stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.
:12:59. > :13:03.That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the
:13:04. > :13:07.people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on
:13:08. > :13:12.your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my
:13:13. > :13:16.feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the
:13:17. > :13:19.house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not
:13:20. > :13:29.only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy
:13:30. > :13:34.-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will
:13:35. > :13:42.mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The
:13:43. > :13:48.cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the
:13:49. > :13:52.financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry
:13:53. > :13:59.of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or
:14:00. > :14:04.less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in
:14:05. > :14:07.an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about
:14:08. > :14:11.nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are
:14:12. > :14:15.against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by
:14:16. > :14:21.independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.
:14:22. > :14:26.The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The
:14:27. > :14:30.danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex
:14:31. > :14:36.Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately
:14:37. > :14:39.joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --
:14:40. > :14:44.involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a
:14:45. > :14:49.peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole
:14:50. > :14:51.that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military
:14:52. > :14:57.entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,
:14:58. > :15:01.till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the
:15:02. > :15:08.grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines
:15:09. > :15:13.and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other
:15:14. > :15:17.hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British
:15:18. > :15:22.nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it
:15:23. > :15:31.showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely
:15:32. > :15:36.riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to
:15:37. > :15:43.be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises
:15:44. > :15:47.of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for
:15:48. > :15:52.the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told
:15:53. > :16:03.us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?
:16:04. > :16:11.I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result
:16:12. > :16:18.This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation
:16:19. > :16:26.of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The
:16:27. > :16:41.country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And
:16:42. > :16:47.the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a
:16:48. > :16:52.300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour
:16:53. > :16:58.leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer
:16:59. > :17:03.one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this
:17:04. > :17:09.deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it
:17:10. > :17:12.will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,
:17:13. > :17:16.particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and
:17:17. > :17:22.decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of
:17:23. > :17:27.Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just
:17:28. > :17:32.months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of
:17:33. > :17:38.people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a
:17:39. > :17:44.grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which
:17:45. > :17:49.history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get
:17:50. > :17:56.out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.
:17:57. > :18:04.Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,
:18:05. > :18:10.they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in
:18:11. > :18:14.Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the
:18:15. > :18:19.Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the
:18:20. > :18:24.chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly
:18:25. > :18:31.right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty
:18:32. > :18:34.and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many
:18:35. > :18:40.but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,
:18:41. > :18:46.but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the
:18:47. > :18:52.situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It
:18:53. > :18:58.is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the
:18:59. > :19:02.roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she
:19:03. > :19:07.pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would
:19:08. > :19:11.not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.
:19:12. > :19:15.If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it
:19:16. > :19:19.would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another
:19:20. > :19:25.issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the
:19:26. > :19:31.Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering
:19:32. > :19:37.home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had
:19:38. > :19:42.signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble
:19:43. > :19:47.for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of
:19:48. > :19:53.all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to
:19:54. > :19:58.risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win
:19:59. > :20:04.on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe
:20:05. > :20:09.fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already
:20:10. > :20:16.aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with
:20:17. > :20:22.death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday
:20:23. > :20:28.if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this
:20:29. > :20:32.home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on
:20:33. > :20:39.this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland
:20:40. > :20:47.getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole
:20:48. > :20:53.procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home
:20:54. > :20:59.rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to
:21:00. > :21:03.introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional
:21:04. > :21:09.monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It
:21:10. > :21:16.was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James
:21:17. > :21:22.Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not
:21:23. > :21:28.rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.
:21:29. > :21:30.It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns
:21:31. > :21:34.in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum
:21:35. > :21:45.Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign
:21:46. > :21:51.It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new
:21:52. > :21:58.great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,
:21:59. > :22:02.Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous
:22:03. > :22:09.Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.
:22:10. > :22:13.Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the
:22:14. > :22:18.referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron
:22:19. > :22:23.did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set
:22:24. > :22:29.out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,
:22:30. > :22:35.a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed
:22:36. > :22:40.improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a
:22:41. > :22:46.basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called
:22:47. > :22:51.Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the
:22:52. > :22:55.leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded
:22:56. > :22:59.with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of
:23:00. > :23:04.campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a
:23:05. > :23:09.break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes
:23:10. > :23:15.campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they
:23:16. > :23:23.accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when
:23:24. > :23:28.the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one
:23:29. > :23:33.week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the
:23:34. > :23:38.first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to
:23:39. > :23:42.head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that
:23:43. > :23:46.you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision
:23:47. > :23:55.if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally
:23:56. > :24:00.different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex
:24:01. > :24:04.Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the
:24:05. > :24:14.NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden
:24:15. > :24:20.-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex
:24:21. > :24:27.Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were
:24:28. > :24:31.other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like
:24:32. > :24:37.Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join
:24:38. > :24:41.the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?
:24:42. > :24:49.This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,
:24:50. > :24:52.Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are
:24:53. > :24:59.proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to
:25:00. > :25:02.stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and
:25:03. > :25:06.centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more
:25:07. > :25:11.devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the
:25:12. > :25:15.parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster
:25:16. > :25:20.some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister
:25:21. > :25:25.if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a
:25:26. > :25:31.good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'
:25:32. > :25:40.views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I
:25:41. > :25:43.am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from
:25:44. > :25:46.Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and
:25:47. > :25:51.I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly
:25:52. > :25:56.inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it
:25:57. > :26:01.would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30
:26:02. > :26:05.hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more
:26:06. > :26:09.about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.
:26:10. > :26:12.And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor
:26:13. > :26:14.of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.
:26:15. > :26:26.An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership
:26:27. > :26:31.of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is
:26:32. > :26:41.that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's
:26:42. > :26:46.prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is
:26:47. > :26:52.not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two
:26:53. > :26:57.years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting
:26:58. > :27:02.for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes
:27:03. > :27:07.on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom
:27:08. > :27:12.because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free
:27:13. > :27:17.prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not
:27:18. > :27:22.in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the
:27:23. > :27:26.price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry
:27:27. > :27:33.about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing
:27:34. > :27:43.stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power
:27:44. > :27:48.generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,
:27:49. > :27:53.natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class
:27:54. > :27:57.universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the
:27:58. > :28:01.world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the
:28:02. > :28:05.revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but
:28:06. > :28:09.it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand
:28:10. > :28:13.still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections
:28:14. > :28:20.of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to
:28:21. > :28:25.keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and
:28:26. > :28:32.you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.
:28:33. > :28:36.That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the
:28:37. > :28:44.most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic
:28:45. > :28:47.stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee
:28:48. > :28:53.employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking
:28:54. > :28:59.about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to
:29:00. > :29:03.continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the
:29:04. > :29:14.minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go
:29:15. > :29:26.onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The
:29:27. > :29:31.West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done
:29:32. > :29:37.because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil
:29:38. > :29:46.because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident
:29:47. > :29:52.and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn
:29:53. > :29:57.his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions
:29:58. > :30:01.and change are not just single event. What will happen here on
:30:02. > :30:07.Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being
:30:08. > :30:11.patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and
:30:12. > :30:17.abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice
:30:18. > :30:26.What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you
:30:27. > :30:30.against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes
:30:31. > :30:35.campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we
:30:36. > :30:43.are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a
:30:44. > :30:48.scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay
:30:49. > :30:52.on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be
:30:53. > :31:01.lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave
:31:02. > :31:07.the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your
:31:08. > :31:12.way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of
:31:13. > :31:16.business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be
:31:17. > :31:26.clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,
:31:27. > :31:33.because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England
:31:34. > :31:37.want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in
:31:38. > :31:41.Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the
:31:42. > :31:45.jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent
:31:46. > :31:49.and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can
:31:50. > :31:53.do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In
:31:54. > :31:57.wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are
:31:58. > :32:01.fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the
:32:02. > :32:09.socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it
:32:10. > :32:13.work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in
:32:14. > :32:16.Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters
:32:17. > :32:21.in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can
:32:22. > :32:25.reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three
:32:26. > :32:29.Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,
:32:30. > :32:33.austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he
:32:34. > :32:38.said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed
:32:39. > :32:42.Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see
:32:43. > :32:46.if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last
:32:47. > :32:49.Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The
:32:50. > :32:56.Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in
:32:57. > :33:00.Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do
:33:01. > :33:16.you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish
:33:17. > :33:18.general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you
:33:19. > :33:25.went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won
:33:26. > :33:29.a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why
:33:30. > :33:33.they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has
:33:34. > :33:38.thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and
:33:39. > :33:43.protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP
:33:44. > :33:48.who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the
:33:49. > :33:52.NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale
:33:53. > :33:56.people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public
:33:57. > :33:59.ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George
:34:00. > :34:05.Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish
:34:06. > :34:08.Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right
:34:09. > :34:13.in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,
:34:14. > :34:15.Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent
:34:16. > :34:21.Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an
:34:22. > :34:27.independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir
:34:28. > :34:32.Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the
:34:33. > :34:37.right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist
:34:38. > :34:44.vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence
:34:45. > :34:50.people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who
:34:51. > :34:53.fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.
:34:54. > :35:00.Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who
:35:01. > :35:03.engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m
:35:04. > :35:10.still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,
:35:11. > :35:13.Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,
:35:14. > :35:17.I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,
:35:18. > :35:23.it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any
:35:24. > :35:28.young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't
:35:29. > :35:33.care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the
:35:34. > :35:40.unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who
:35:41. > :35:43.support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the
:35:44. > :35:47.campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the
:35:48. > :35:52.establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what
:35:53. > :35:56.they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your
:35:57. > :36:01.coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial
:36:02. > :36:06.control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and
:36:07. > :36:09.the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.
:36:10. > :36:13.Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.
:36:14. > :36:18.Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses
:36:19. > :36:23.if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking
:36:24. > :36:31.to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that
:36:32. > :36:34.you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.
:36:35. > :36:39.Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with
:36:40. > :36:46.the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.
:36:47. > :36:50.They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for
:36:51. > :36:55.freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So
:36:56. > :36:59.far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might
:37:00. > :37:02.happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to
:37:03. > :37:19.you later with George Galloway. Welcome to Sunday Politics South `
:37:20. > :37:22.my name's Peter Henley. On today's show the town th`t's
:37:23. > :37:25.starting to have second thotghts Thame in Oxfordshire voted xes to
:37:26. > :37:30.its neighbourhood plan sixtden months ago, but now that
:37:31. > :37:35.the planning applications are starting to go in, some reshdents
:37:36. > :37:38.are saying they didn't realhse quite First,
:37:39. > :37:45.let's meet the three politicians who'll be with me for the dtration
:37:46. > :37:48.this week ` all of them candidates for their respective parties
:37:49. > :37:51.at next year's general election Judith Bunting is standing
:37:52. > :37:53.for the Liberal Democrats in Newbury, Royston Smith
:37:54. > :38:01.for the Conservatives in Southampton Itchen and Chris Oxlade
:38:02. > :38:04.for the Labour party in Crawley We?re not quite
:38:05. > :38:08.at manifesto time and, after the coalition, promises don't h`ve quite
:38:09. > :38:11.the same sort of feel that they do Can each of you identify ond
:38:12. > :38:17.priority, one USP possibly that you as candidates will be
:38:18. > :38:22.presenting to the electoratd? One thing is standing up
:38:23. > :38:24.for local people. I think you're all going
:38:25. > :38:26.to be doing that. At the moment with the Fire Service
:38:27. > :38:32.there is huge cuts across West Sussex
:38:33. > :38:35.and is it actually standing up for local people and explaining to the
:38:36. > :38:39.county council or those in power Labour is still saying they want to
:38:40. > :38:44.reduce the deficit and a surplus possibly if they were in governmentt
:38:45. > :38:49.and yet you are going to go into the election saying the Fire Service
:38:50. > :38:52.cuts should not have happendd ` we So rather than spending millions
:38:53. > :38:58.of pounds on theatres, it is saving people's lives by increasing
:38:59. > :39:01.the funding to the Fire Service They are going to cut
:39:02. > :39:03.the theatre budget, presumably. If people prioritise and people can
:39:04. > :39:10.find savings and then they can put them into things that they think are
:39:11. > :39:13.important I don't have a problem with that, but what we hear all the
:39:14. > :39:17.time is we understand the atsterity measures in general
:39:18. > :39:19.but we don't accept them But you know I have no problem with
:39:20. > :39:27.someone who says that they think that one thing is more important
:39:28. > :39:31.than another and there are going to take one thing from one budget to
:39:32. > :39:34.another and that is fair enough I Think what this highlights hs a real
:39:35. > :39:41.problem in rural areas, which is that the way that government funding
:39:42. > :39:44.is allocated is biased towards bigger urban areas so the bhg cities
:39:45. > :39:53.get something like 52% more which I will be speaking about at
:39:54. > :39:56.conference and will be camp`igning for in Westminster if I get there,
:39:57. > :39:59.then that would alleviate this kind of problem where you have to
:40:00. > :40:02.make that horrible choice. Is that part of the issue
:40:03. > :40:05.because this funding goes b`ck to when Labour was in power as well,
:40:06. > :40:09.will you be able to say to people as Labour we will spend mord
:40:10. > :40:11.and then be able deliver? Labour is not going to
:40:12. > :40:14.borrow or spend more. It is quite clear, as I said before,
:40:15. > :40:17.it is about priority. It is local priorities
:40:18. > :40:18.that people want. And you don't mind those people
:40:19. > :40:21.go to the theatres in Crawldy.. The only theatre in West Sussex
:40:22. > :40:25.funded by the County Council was ghven ?1.5
:40:26. > :40:28.million two years ago, the cuts for That?s interesting that you have a
:40:29. > :40:33.concrete example of where you would spend the money differently and you
:40:34. > :40:49.think that might make a difference. There are all unique and thdy are
:40:50. > :40:54.all very good selling Points, but I am concentrating on being local not
:40:55. > :40:58.because I am obsessed with ht, as some people might think I al, but
:40:59. > :41:01.because people in Southampton, which is in my experience and
:41:02. > :41:04.in my years of living here It is not
:41:05. > :41:08.like the big cities elsewhere. Everyone knows everyone and they
:41:09. > :41:12.like the idea of having somdone that they know, that they have grown up
:41:13. > :41:15.with, that they have seen operating They like the idea
:41:16. > :41:20.of having someone local. You will all argue you are local
:41:21. > :41:31.but surely people are looking for someone with a broader vision than
:41:32. > :41:34.just saying I am the local person? One of the things I'm going to be
:41:35. > :41:39.fighting on is education because while we have been
:41:40. > :41:41.in coalition and the Ministdr for Some of the most socially ddmocratic
:41:42. > :41:46.policies Which has put something
:41:47. > :41:51.like 4 billion quid At the same time
:41:52. > :41:55.as getting a good strong economy. We need that money locally
:41:56. > :42:00.because our council, our local authority has had quite
:42:01. > :42:05.a bad performance across thd entire On
:42:06. > :42:09.the doorstep people will sax Liberal Democrats, David Laws in particular,
:42:10. > :42:12.should have sorted that out? Are you going to say
:42:13. > :42:15.the Conservative s stopped xou Standards are not
:42:16. > :42:20.what they should be. West Berkshire's got the worst
:42:21. > :42:30.attainment gap in the entird UK we were picked out, horriblx,
:42:31. > :42:33.by Michael Wilshaw ` head of Ofsted last year for this horrible fact
:42:34. > :42:37.and we need to be working together Do you think
:42:38. > :42:43.the pupil premium is working? Schools in West Sussex,
:42:44. > :42:47.it is hard to find where thdy are It is that honesty ? especi`lly now
:42:48. > :42:52.with the academies and Free Schools ? to find out where that money is
:42:53. > :42:56.going and making sure it is being spent in the right way, but the big
:42:57. > :42:59.problem we have in education across west Sussex is the number of people
:43:00. > :43:03.and number of kids in a class. We had to the Free School closing
:43:04. > :43:07.Crawley to the cost of ?300,000 to West Sussex which was
:43:08. > :43:11.promised to be given back and never appeared and that has now come out
:43:12. > :43:22.of our dedicated schools gr`nt. The Conservative answer
:43:23. > :43:24.seems to be Free Schools? Michael Gove seemed to talk all
:43:25. > :43:27.about that and the curricultm? Free Schools
:43:28. > :43:28.and academies giving people choice. I am happy to campaign on that `
:43:29. > :43:32.we have got one now in Southampton that is applying to be a Frde School
:43:33. > :43:36.and that will be I am sure There are gaps in the market
:43:37. > :43:39.and they can be identified and a Free School can bridgd those
:43:40. > :43:43.gaps and I think they are rdally, Going back to
:43:44. > :43:46.the pupil premium it is a great example of shroud waving from Labour
:43:47. > :43:48.councillors in Southampton about grant cuts but they don't talk
:43:49. > :43:51.about that huge investment hnto Which has been identified
:43:52. > :43:55.as a Liberal Democrat thing. It is a coalition government and we
:43:56. > :44:03.are implementing those policies I am not worried who comes tp with
:44:04. > :44:07.them, I am worried that thex have the right policies and what I don't
:44:08. > :44:10.like is hearing people shrotd waving about their budget cuts but then on
:44:11. > :44:24.the other hand ignoring that extra I don't know the details
:44:25. > :44:34.in Southampton but... OK but in general it is a
:44:35. > :44:37.difficult line to tread, isn't it? Complaining that the record
:44:38. > :44:40.of the coalition here is not enough but also saying that we would not
:44:41. > :44:42.spend more money. Again it is about priorities and
:44:43. > :44:45.investing that money and spdnding Other county councillors on all
:44:46. > :44:49.sides of the political spectrum have brought up the same issues
:44:50. > :44:52.about priorities and spending. And it is making sure that we
:44:53. > :44:55.actually hit those prioritids which Do you think that your ideas are
:44:56. > :45:01.getting a good response frol people? In each case can you see
:45:02. > :45:03.their eyes light up when you talk about the subject area
:45:04. > :45:07.which you think they care about It is what they care
:45:08. > :45:09.about not what we care about. And you think people really care
:45:10. > :45:12.about the local bit, I didn't dream this up myself,
:45:13. > :45:16.this is people who said that. You will know Peter last tile
:45:17. > :45:19.a 9,500 majority down to 200. There something in that
:45:20. > :45:21.about a local candidate, a strong local candidate,
:45:22. > :45:24.so I am happy to pursue that. I am very glad to proclaim lyself
:45:25. > :45:27.as local as well. I moved into the area two ydars ago
:45:28. > :45:31.and we have a glorious MP who lives It certainly is,
:45:32. > :45:43.and he is local to the constituency It is going to be a competition
:45:44. > :45:47.isn't it? Who is the local`ist,
:45:48. > :45:49.if that is a word. "More people planning and ldss
:45:50. > :45:51.politician planning". That's what Communities Secretary
:45:52. > :45:53.Eric Pickles promised us when he announced the launch of
:45:54. > :45:55.Neighbourhood Plans four ye`rs ago. Since then thousands of towns and
:45:56. > :45:58.villages across the country have started to develop one ` setting out
:45:59. > :46:01.where residents want new hotses Thame in Oxfordshire was ond
:46:02. > :46:14.of the first to complete thdirs and they held a referendum to ddcide yes
:46:15. > :46:18.or no to it ` but 16 months on, not everyone in the town is happy with
:46:19. > :46:21.it, as our Oxfordshire reporter Thame in South Oxfordshire,
:46:22. > :46:30.home to 11,000 people but familiar to millions more
:46:31. > :46:33.around the world as Corston in In real life
:46:34. > :46:37.Thame, the knives are not for each It came into force last Julx
:46:38. > :46:43.but there are already calls to It is all to do with this p`tch
:46:44. > :46:46.of land. We will get to that moment
:46:47. > :46:50.but first a flashback. The people of Thame overwhelmingly
:46:51. > :47:03.voted to adopt their neighbourhood plan and therefore everything
:47:04. > :47:06.in it in a referendum. It was the second place
:47:07. > :47:13.in the country to do it To the letter actually they had
:47:14. > :47:20.their period of informed consultation producing
:47:21. > :47:24.their draft plan and when it hits the formal process and came to the
:47:25. > :47:30.District Council and local planning authority, yes, the examiner when he
:47:31. > :47:33.looked at the plans said th`t their process had been exemplary
:47:34. > :47:36.and their conservation had gone over But in a new plot twist,
:47:37. > :47:40.some residents seem to have changed We stood here at this point in time
:47:41. > :47:47.and as you can see from this plan they are going to build a htge line
:47:48. > :47:50.of terraced houses down the side of the park which is down there and
:47:51. > :47:54.they're going to cuts down that tree over there put
:47:55. > :47:56.a nice big crescent over thdre. A campaign has been launched to see
:47:57. > :48:00.it taken out of the plan altogether after an application was put in
:48:01. > :48:02.for 45 homes here. There are a lot of our petitioners,
:48:03. > :48:05.the people who have signed the petition against this
:48:06. > :48:08.development, a lot of them voted yes They are saying that they dhd not
:48:09. > :48:12.understand exactly the consdquences of the neighbourhood plan
:48:13. > :48:15.when it was being drawn up. Essentially the neighbourhood plan
:48:16. > :48:18.gave planning permission to pieces of land in Thame that are completely
:48:19. > :48:22.unsuitable for development that they So what of those who voted
:48:23. > :48:27.in the referendum ` Maybe it's the right approach but
:48:28. > :48:37.I'm not happy about The Elms one. It is a very good park in the centre
:48:38. > :48:41.of town, they shouldn't build there. Do you mind me asking,
:48:42. > :48:43.because it was in the neighbourhood A lot of people didn't notice it
:48:44. > :48:50.and neither did I. You wouldn't believe that they
:48:51. > :48:53.would build on that area. Nobody can use that land, wd can?t
:48:54. > :48:57.see it and we can?t walk on it and it is just there for the frdsh air
:48:58. > :49:04.and the trees and think it would be a good place to build houses for the
:49:05. > :49:08.elderly because it is near centre. I think it is unfortunate using
:49:09. > :49:11.the green space that we havd. I think especially
:49:12. > :49:13.so close to the school the children I think they need to look
:49:14. > :49:18.into it a bit more, take our opinions into consideration
:49:19. > :49:20.maybe look somewhere else. Now, there is an argument to say
:49:21. > :49:24.if you?re going to go and vote on These plans were online, it does
:49:25. > :49:29.say 45 houses, it is quite clear. They should have made the effort but
:49:30. > :49:33.it is my belief that there should be a cooling`off period between
:49:34. > :49:36.the point at which the town plan is passed and the point at which
:49:37. > :49:38.developing work starts or planning applications are put in and that
:49:39. > :49:42.gives a period of time people can make more informed choices because
:49:43. > :49:44.other things come to light during that period of time and we've seen a
:49:45. > :49:48.lot of the information come to light that was not available
:49:49. > :49:51.during the voting period th`t is now available, to understand wh`t
:49:52. > :49:53.the full consequences Backers of neighbourhood pl`ns say
:49:54. > :49:57.you cannot do it bit by bit, You have to look at the plan
:49:58. > :50:00.as a whole. And the vote has to be whether I
:50:01. > :50:05.support the whole plan or not. You can't piecemeal take it apart
:50:06. > :50:08.because if you take one bit out then it has implications
:50:09. > :50:11.for other parts of the plan. As we are being reminded thhs week
:50:12. > :50:14.above all others, that is Its outcome is about as fin`l
:50:15. > :50:19.as the solutions meted out You are a fan
:50:20. > :50:28.of referendums aren't you? As with Scotland,
:50:29. > :50:34.once the decision is taken `nd once It is a brutal business, a xes or a
:50:35. > :50:43.no and then you're too sick to the decision as a whole, or do xou think
:50:44. > :50:47.you could go back and revisht? There is a problem from the
:50:48. > :50:50.neighbourhood plan from the start. We had one in Crawley which went to
:50:51. > :50:54.a support forums and the forum said we don't want that type
:50:55. > :50:57.of responsibility ? we don?t know exactly what the plans are or how
:50:58. > :51:02.they are going to pan out and it seems to be that usual central
:51:03. > :51:05.government coming out of thd localism act and it is great for
:51:06. > :51:08.local communities, and actu`lly it is more centralisation of rdsources
:51:09. > :51:12.and ideas rather than giving Forcing people to sign up to
:51:13. > :51:16.something then they say we did not We are doing a local plan
:51:17. > :51:20.in Southampton and that is going to process now
:51:21. > :51:23.and that has been several rdsidents association have been involved
:51:24. > :51:30.from the start`they are verx much I would be staggered if,
:51:31. > :51:35.when they come to a referendum, they then voted for it
:51:36. > :51:38.and then they later felt th`t it I would be staggered
:51:39. > :51:44.if that happened but if it does then it is still a process which is open
:51:45. > :51:47.for people to get involved hn. If there was not
:51:48. > :51:49.the neighbourhood plan option they would have what they had before
:51:50. > :51:52.and that would be someone coming along wanting to build some houses
:51:53. > :51:55.in a field and having only the planning process and thdir
:51:56. > :51:58.ability to object at that stage At least they get to ` very early
:51:59. > :52:02.on ` decide how they want their area Because they know
:52:03. > :52:05.that it has got to. But this idea of everybody being
:52:06. > :52:08.in it together? Thame really felt like that
:52:09. > :52:10.when they were voting for it It was the community making
:52:11. > :52:13.the choices. How does having
:52:14. > :52:17.a referendum actually sort the thing out so that everybody then
:52:18. > :52:21.moves forward together? in West Berkshire we have
:52:22. > :52:28.a consultation on development plans over the
:52:29. > :52:31.summer, over the summer when people What we need is consultation that is
:52:32. > :52:36.sensible and that people ard drawn I'm quite shocked that people did
:52:37. > :52:41.not understand what was going on. The public are not councillors, they
:52:42. > :52:48.are not as well`informed and it is for us to explain things to them so
:52:49. > :52:54.they understand what is going on. It is being chaired
:52:55. > :52:57.by a councillor and there are two or And resident groups,
:52:58. > :53:00.you were saying. But you are opposing some of that,
:53:01. > :53:04.the suggestions from West Bdrkshire I did not want to talk
:53:05. > :53:16.about the Scottish referendtm but people say it is just one side
:53:17. > :53:19.shouting at the other side. What we have in Newbury is
:53:20. > :53:23.a huge site which could be developed It has been there forever, dverybody
:53:24. > :53:28.is in favour of something h`ppening there, but somehow our council is
:53:29. > :53:32.not managing to get that to a stage I don't understand what the
:53:33. > :53:41.negotiations have been taking part in so they have put up greenfield
:53:42. > :53:44.sites across the district. In this situation,
:53:45. > :53:46.and there are nearly 3000 yds and less than 1000 no, it felt pretty
:53:47. > :53:50.conclusive ` now people are saying I think everyone has touched on how
:53:51. > :53:59.complicated not just the pl`nning process but anything to involve
:54:00. > :54:03.councils is incredibly complicated. If you haven't got
:54:04. > :54:06.a local plan or if you have got One of Labour's policies
:54:07. > :54:12.is this right to grow. A good thing for Crawley,
:54:13. > :54:15.I tell you. It will stop our neighbouring Tory
:54:16. > :54:19.friends dumping housing projects on the side of Crawley so that we
:54:20. > :54:23.can actually develop Crawlex It sounds like a charter for some
:54:24. > :54:28.councils to come out and fall out If you look at what we're doing in
:54:29. > :54:35.South Hampshire for example, where we are looking at housing ntmbers
:54:36. > :54:39.right across South Hampshird, we know what we need and some of those
:54:40. > :54:43.houses and a good number of those Southampton will take
:54:44. > :54:47.a good number of houses because can build high and ht can
:54:48. > :54:52.take more, same as Portsmouth. We are looking more
:54:53. > :54:55.across the boundaries than trying to It is a yes and a no, but it is
:54:56. > :55:03.also the right people at thd right We Lib Dems believe
:55:04. > :55:09.in the local people and we want to Area
:55:10. > :55:14.by area with proper consult`tion. You're talking about a colldction of
:55:15. > :55:18.different councils, you?re saying Crawley sorting out the isstes with
:55:19. > :55:22.its surrounding neighbours. There are always going
:55:23. > :55:24.to be problems. We've seen that in Thame
:55:25. > :55:27.when they have taken a decision and now they are not entirely sure
:55:28. > :55:31.that is what they wanted. And you're always going to have that
:55:32. > :55:33.because again it is looking at something generally and then
:55:34. > :55:37.when it becomes specific people get a bit worried about it
:55:38. > :55:40.and we see it all the time. I understand it, I fully understand
:55:41. > :55:44.it, but dare I use the word NIMBYs ` We need more houses,
:55:45. > :55:49.we need more affordable homds for people but we need people to be
:55:50. > :55:53.a bit more pragmatic about ht. Now,
:55:54. > :55:54.our regular roundup of the political Amid new royal baby talk,
:55:55. > :56:05.Prince William visited Oxford. He was opening a ?21 million
:56:06. > :56:12.building bringing together The new Energy Minister camd to see
:56:13. > :56:16.a Chinese firm?s solar panels She denies Britain faces
:56:17. > :56:22.an energy crisis. We're not going to have somd sort
:56:23. > :56:28.of crisis I am happy to say. Ukrainian billionaire
:56:29. > :56:32.Alexander Temerko disagrees. He wants to lay new underse`
:56:33. > :56:37.connections to French nucle`r power stations but has been told
:56:38. > :56:43.there is nowhere to plug`in. It is impossible to connect `
:56:44. > :56:51.a disaster for the country. A shortage of school meals saw some
:56:52. > :56:53.Dorset schools sending out Now urgent talks about how to
:56:54. > :57:07.deliver the free hot school meals. Is this school meals thing
:57:08. > :57:11.properly considered? It seems it happened in a htrry
:57:12. > :57:14.and here in Dorset we've got In West Berkshire
:57:15. > :57:21.our schools are doing reallx well. We've got something
:57:22. > :57:24.like 95% good delivery but ht has There has been a year since
:57:25. > :57:34.the announcement so authorities have A lot of places without kitchens
:57:35. > :57:38.outsourcing stuff, Chris? I think it has gone
:57:39. > :57:47.through really quickly. I wholeheartedly support thd idea
:57:48. > :57:51.but, when you look at West Sussex, they ripped out their kitchdns for
:57:52. > :57:54.hot school meals about ten xears ago and trying to get the kit b`ck in `
:57:55. > :57:57.even though it is microwave`ble hot meals ? that roll`out for the
:57:58. > :58:00.schools in particular, Some of the headteachers,
:58:01. > :58:03.particularly around my neck of the woods, they have been having
:58:04. > :58:09.trouble making sure the budgets .. In the long run you agree whth
:58:10. > :58:12.the idea? Who can't agree with the idda
:58:13. > :58:15.of kids having hot school dhnners? I grew up on it,
:58:16. > :58:17.we were talking about it earlier, I am laughing Peter because normally
:58:18. > :58:22.when anybody does anything the it is never being
:58:23. > :58:25.done quickly enough. We have now got my colleagud
:58:26. > :58:28.saying it is far too quick. Do schools needed disruption
:58:29. > :58:30.at this moment? Headteachers who have got to deal
:58:31. > :58:32.with new curriculum, they'vd had a fight with all this and you have
:58:33. > :58:36.got to feel sorry for them? It is all in the planning
:58:37. > :58:39.and the preparation. I don't suppose anyone in Dorset,
:58:40. > :58:41.anyone involved, or the companies supplying the school meals hntended
:58:42. > :58:44.for any of these things to happen but there are going to be some
:58:45. > :58:48.teething problems and I would rather have a really good system that has
:58:49. > :58:51.some teething problems than wait for months or years
:58:52. > :58:53.for something to come in. I would rather get
:58:54. > :58:55.on with it actually. If it is a good idea
:58:56. > :59:01.we will embrace it. The announcement was in the summer `
:59:02. > :59:06.you've got the school holid`ys and I had a meeting at the
:59:07. > :59:10.County Council, back in May it was, to decide about the contract and
:59:11. > :59:13.who was actually going to rtn the Then they haven't been paying
:59:14. > :59:18.attention ` it was announced this If you are in a County Council you
:59:19. > :59:26.will know that the detail dhd not But they were not told how
:59:27. > :59:31.it was going to happen. That is
:59:32. > :59:33.for them to work out isn't ht? In
:59:34. > :59:36.the end do you think it is something that parents will like and will it
:59:37. > :59:40.be seen as a Lib Dem policy or why It was pushed through by thd
:59:41. > :59:43.Lib Dems. It is something I will admit all
:59:44. > :59:47.sides have supported along the way. That's the Sunday Politics
:59:48. > :59:51.in the South, thanks to my guests Judith Bunting,
:59:52. > :59:54.Royston Smith and Chris Oxl`de. Next week we'll be starting
:59:55. > :59:58.our three weeks of party conference coveragd with
:59:59. > :00:02.Labour ` and getting a sensd of what the Scottish referendum restlt,
:00:03. > :00:04.whatever it is, means for us. Don't forget to keep up`to`date with
:00:05. > :00:08.southern politics by reading my blog ` there's the address
:00:09. > :00:13.at the bottom of the screen. The last time a sewer was built in
:00:14. > :00:17.London was 150 years ago, otherwise we would have a dirty River Thames.
:00:18. > :00:22.Andrew, back to you. Can
:00:23. > :00:27.the No campaign still pull it off? And even if they do is the whole
:00:28. > :00:31.of the UK now on the brink I'm joined now by John McTernan
:00:32. > :00:48.former adviser to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, Alex Bell,
:00:49. > :00:51.former Head of Policy for the SNP and Lindsay McIntosh, the
:00:52. > :00:53.Times Scottish Political Editor And I'm delighted that Tommy
:00:54. > :00:59.and George have stayed too. No fighting has broken out either.
:01:00. > :01:08.Where No fighting has broken out either.
:01:09. > :01:08.have three full days to go No fighting has broken out either.
:01:09. > :01:16.polling day. What is the state of play? I think the poll of polls is
:01:17. > :01:20.accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital is to bring the undecided voters in,
:01:21. > :01:25.and they properly have about 500,000. I think there are a lot of
:01:26. > :01:29.undecided people. I think they know which way they are leaning, but they
:01:30. > :01:36.haven't jumped. The hope of the no campaign is that they will go for
:01:37. > :01:42.the status quo on Thursday. How do you assess the state of the campaign
:01:43. > :01:46.now? The crucial thing is the big swing. The swing has come towards
:01:47. > :01:53.yes, so will the momentum carry it over the line? I will think it does,
:01:54. > :01:57.because it is an antiestablishment swell, and its people responding to
:01:58. > :02:01.standard Western as the politicians and saying that they want a new way
:02:02. > :02:07.-- Westminster politicians. I think that yes will sneak it. A referendum
:02:08. > :02:13.can be more important than a general election, and the Yes campaign have
:02:14. > :02:16.had the momentum. This was the week the momentum stopped. We started the
:02:17. > :02:19.week looking as though yes were going into the lead and then it
:02:20. > :02:23.stopped and most of the recent polls show a distinct lead for the no
:02:24. > :02:28.campaign. A distinct lead? It is one or two points. It is six in one
:02:29. > :02:33.poll, two in another, aiding another. The poll of polls is a good
:02:34. > :02:38.way of measuring, and is it statistically Nick -- nip and tuck?
:02:39. > :02:42.It is the week the momentum stopped. About a fifth of the electorate
:02:43. > :02:46.That will be a quarter of the turnout have voted already, by
:02:47. > :02:51.postal vote, and they are running very strongly towards no, so there
:02:52. > :02:55.is a whole bank of votes there. The postal votes are skewed to the over
:02:56. > :03:01.60s, and that is the demographic that the Yes campaign have had the
:03:02. > :03:06.biggest trouble with. Absolutely, the Yes campaign faced a challenge
:03:07. > :03:11.amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and always based challenge with the
:03:12. > :03:16.older voters. Trust me, I was the decision the day the civil servants
:03:17. > :03:18.made it possible for the 16 to 18-year-olds to vote, and we said
:03:19. > :03:24.there was a victory for the no campaign in that alone. The young
:03:25. > :03:28.tend to be conservative by nature. I think again that to say that the
:03:29. > :03:36.momentum has stopped when you had a 20 point lead, this is a referendum
:03:37. > :03:40.whether people will speak and they will be heard. Except for the one
:03:41. > :03:45.poll which needs a huge health warning because of the size of the
:03:46. > :03:48.sample, the momentum is unquestionably all the way through
:03:49. > :03:55.August is going in the direction of yes. It hasn't quite continue to get
:03:56. > :03:59.to the 55/45 four yes that Alex Salmond thinks will be the result. I
:04:00. > :04:05.would agree with John. This was the momentum stalled. We saw the three
:04:06. > :04:10.leaders coming up, and that kept Alex Salmond off the front pages on
:04:11. > :04:13.the television and we had a raft of economic warnings which, although
:04:14. > :04:15.they were dismissed as scaremongering, they will have had a
:04:16. > :04:23.lot of traction with voters. What does the no campaign have to do in
:04:24. > :04:28.the final three days? It has to focus on the undecided,
:04:29. > :04:31.relentlessly. It has to do stick to the question of risk and keep
:04:32. > :04:34.pushing back on Alex Salmond to say it doesn't matter if the banks
:04:35. > :04:38.leave, it will all be all right on the night. The huge question amongst
:04:39. > :04:44.the undecided voters is about the economy. It is about jobs and
:04:45. > :04:47.currency, about business. That risk is what will crystallise in the
:04:48. > :04:52.ballot box on Thursday and that has to be the focus. What does the Yes
:04:53. > :04:56.campaign have to do? It has to drive home that the swing to the Yes
:04:57. > :05:00.campaign is motivated by people who want a different politics. They have
:05:01. > :05:02.decided amongst themselves that they want to change Scotland. The
:05:03. > :05:08.unfortunate thing is, even though the no campaign has had the chance
:05:09. > :05:11.to put up after proposals, they have failed. The Scottish people want
:05:12. > :05:16.their powers were a purpose and they say that only the Yes campaign can
:05:17. > :05:19.deliver that. There will be two days of relentless campaigning from
:05:20. > :05:22.today, Monday and Tuesday, then the media, the newspapers, including
:05:23. > :05:28.your own, will come out with the final poll, the ones that will be
:05:29. > :05:33.the closest to the day that the Scots actually go and vote. I think
:05:34. > :05:35.we will see more polling this week, but what is interesting is the
:05:36. > :05:39.extent to which the pollsters are picking up what is going on in the
:05:40. > :05:42.street. We know we have a huge number of voters who have never
:05:43. > :05:48.voted before and are not engage with politics, so what will they do? The
:05:49. > :05:52.third candidate in the election if I can would in this way, are the
:05:53. > :05:55.polls. They might have a lot of questions to answer on Friday
:05:56. > :05:58.morning. We were talking earlier with George and Tommy about the
:05:59. > :06:04.Labour Party's consequences in all of this. Gordon Brown, of course,
:06:05. > :06:08.has had a bit of a second coming as a result of this referendum. I just
:06:09. > :06:12.want to play a clip of Gordon Brown during the campaign and get a
:06:13. > :06:21.reaction. And I say this to Alex Salmond himself. Up until today I am
:06:22. > :06:24.outside front line politics. If he continues to peddle this deception,
:06:25. > :06:29.that the Scottish Parliament under his leadership, and he cannot do
:06:30. > :06:36.anything to improve the health service until he has a separate
:06:37. > :06:39.state, then I will want to join Joe Hanlon want in and securing the
:06:40. > :06:47.return of a Labour government as quickly as possible -- Johann
:06:48. > :06:50.Lamont. That was seen by some people as Gordon Brown implying he might
:06:51. > :06:53.stand for the Scottish Parliament. Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon
:06:54. > :07:00.Brown the saviour of Scottish Labour? I did a double black the
:07:01. > :07:03.other night -- double act with him the other night, and I must say he
:07:04. > :07:09.was a big beast all over again. He crossed the stage Meli dealt with
:07:10. > :07:13.the audience brilliantly. He has a certain presence, Gordon Brown, but
:07:14. > :07:19.he would really have to reinvent himself quite considerably. He is
:07:20. > :07:24.capable of doing, but the man who was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton,
:07:25. > :07:28.who pulled together the original red paper on Scotland, he would have to
:07:29. > :07:32.be that Gordon Brown rather than the Gordon Brown of some more melancholy
:07:33. > :07:35.events later. Tommy, you have both been critical of the state of the
:07:36. > :07:39.Scottish Labour Party. Rather than looking to Gordon Brown, which might
:07:40. > :07:43.be an interim solution, doesn't Scottish Labour have to find a new
:07:44. > :07:47.generation of people to reignite it? What George and I are agreed on and
:07:48. > :07:52.you have to remember this question of independence see us disagreeing
:07:53. > :07:56.passionately, and in most other things we find ourselves in
:07:57. > :07:59.agreement, one thing is clear, Scottish Labour is finished. They
:08:00. > :08:06.have lost the heart and soul of Scotland. The fact that we are
:08:07. > :08:11.discussing with four days to go an independence referendum that is neck
:08:12. > :08:13.and neck, Labour have failed miserably, absolutely miserably
:08:14. > :08:18.because they have given up everything they stood for. The SNP
:08:19. > :08:21.has picked it up. They have just taken on the bank -- mantle of a
:08:22. > :08:26.left of centre party and are picking up support. Gordon and the rest in
:08:27. > :08:29.my opinion, they represent the past. The yes vote on the Yes campaign
:08:30. > :08:35.represents the future. What do you say to that? There is nothing
:08:36. > :08:40.socialist about an SNP that wants to cut business tax by 3% in the pan.
:08:41. > :08:42.There is nothing socialist about an SNP destroying further education so
:08:43. > :08:48.they can give middle-class people free education. The Labour Party is
:08:49. > :08:54.alive and kicking. You can see if it is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with
:08:55. > :08:58.the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to use this word, but they are kind of
:08:59. > :09:03.privatised from the Scottish Labour Party. They have rode their own
:09:04. > :09:06.fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump because official Scottish Labour did
:09:07. > :09:11.not want him leading their campaign. Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off
:09:12. > :09:17.the stage until it became so critical that he had to be brought
:09:18. > :09:24.back. I agree with John, the SNP talks left but acts right. That is
:09:25. > :09:27.before they get state powers. That is what is exciting about the
:09:28. > :09:31.referendum, it's not about the SNP, it's about the people deciding. What
:09:32. > :09:34.we have heard so far in the referendum campaign is that there is
:09:35. > :09:37.a desperate yearning in the electorate for real politics,
:09:38. > :09:40.purposeful politics and for the people to be represented. It is
:09:41. > :09:45.probably to the eternal shame of labour that they gave up that role
:09:46. > :09:48.and other people are now taking it upon themselves. How would you
:09:49. > :09:53.assess the state of the Labour Party? The problem is that it was
:09:54. > :09:56.demolished by the SNP in 2011 and what they should have done since
:09:57. > :10:00.then and in other circumstances is take a real look within themselves
:10:01. > :10:03.and brought forward new talent and policies and watch out what they
:10:04. > :10:10.stood for. They've been unable to do that because they are locked in a
:10:11. > :10:14.constitutional row. It is the plan of the Nationalists to fight the
:10:15. > :10:16.first Scottish general election as an independent nation as a
:10:17. > :10:21.nationalist party with its own programme. You don't all go your own
:10:22. > :10:25.way. Why don't you do that? You have more on your main reason to be, so
:10:26. > :10:31.why not go, left, right and centre question you are presuming you don't
:10:32. > :10:34.go the one-way. I do not see the function of the SNP after the yes
:10:35. > :10:39.vote. I think it is clear that there is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an
:10:40. > :10:42.SNP which attracts votes from the left and that is the one for me
:10:43. > :10:45.Whether that is called the SNP or something else, I don't know. I
:10:46. > :10:50.think the assumption that we are going into a mirror of old politics
:10:51. > :10:58.in a new world is just fundamentally flawed. That is interesting. Let's
:10:59. > :11:01.just bring in the English dimensional. In many ways, England
:11:02. > :11:06.has not spoken in this referendum campaign. Whether it is yes or no,
:11:07. > :11:10.it will, and to give you a flavour of what some in England might be
:11:11. > :11:15.thinking was saying, here is a clip from John Redwood. We are fed up
:11:16. > :11:19.with this lopsided devolution, this unfair devolution. Scotland gets
:11:20. > :11:22.first-class Devolution, Wales gets second-class devolution and England
:11:23. > :11:26.gets nothing. If Wales wants the same as us, they should have it and
:11:27. > :11:30.then there would be commonality so we could discuss and decide in our
:11:31. > :11:37.own countries, in our own assemblies in Parliament, all those things that
:11:38. > :11:40.are devolved. George, it was clear that if Scotland voted yes for
:11:41. > :11:44.independence it has huge implications for England than the
:11:45. > :11:48.UK, but it's also clear particularly after Gordon Brown's intervention,
:11:49. > :11:52.even if it is no, it has huge applications. You are, I suggest,
:11:53. > :11:58.agreeing with John Redwood that there should be an English boys It
:11:59. > :12:02.would be a step too far for me to agree with him -- English voice I
:12:03. > :12:09.appreciate I might have gone out on a limb. He is the voice of Mars the
:12:10. > :12:13.Balkan from Mars. My own constituents in Bradford are asking,
:12:14. > :12:17.what about us? All these things being done, all the extra mile is
:12:18. > :12:22.being travel to Scotland, what about us? Labour would be well advised to
:12:23. > :12:28.adjust quickly on this so that the John Redwood types do not steal the
:12:29. > :12:32.show. England has yes to use -- yet to speak. It's interesting when you
:12:33. > :12:39.hear a Labour backbencher in Scotland talk about a command paper.
:12:40. > :12:42.He is not in government. Gordon Brown is going round Scotland
:12:43. > :12:46.promising things and he has absolutely no chance of delivering
:12:47. > :12:50.them. The MPs in England will say, hey, what are you talking about We
:12:51. > :12:55.have never been discussed with that? We have not agreed with that. The
:12:56. > :12:59.only way people in Scotland will get the powers they deserve is by voting
:13:00. > :13:04.yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you think it is 60/40. I will stick with
:13:05. > :13:09.it, because we have an unprecedented election. 97% of Scotland is
:13:10. > :13:15.registered to vote. The working class will vote in numbers never
:13:16. > :13:22.voted before. George? 55/45 for our side. And if there is a rogue poll,
:13:23. > :13:26.the tek Levesley polled -- technically flawed poll, which
:13:27. > :13:29.should not be published because it is so flawed, then we would be
:13:30. > :13:32.stretching towards what I am predicting already. I think in the
:13:33. > :13:37.last few days we will reach that. Come on. If the no campaign can get
:13:38. > :13:44.the silent majority out, they will edge it. You think they will win,
:13:45. > :13:50.but how much? They cannot give up in a second, a moment or a mile. It is
:13:51. > :13:57.that close. It will be won by the passionate view. I will go for a
:13:58. > :14:04.narrow yes victory. I'm the George, 53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. --
:14:05. > :14:07.I am with George. I will leave you to argue about that later. Thank you
:14:08. > :14:10.for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.
:14:11. > :14:11.That's all from us today in Scotland.
:14:12. > :14:14.Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage
:14:15. > :14:16.of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.
:14:17. > :14:20.On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be
:14:21. > :14:23.in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm
:14:24. > :14:27.on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
:14:28. > :14:30.And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour
:14:31. > :14:37.Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the
:14:38. > :14:43.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.