:00:09. > :00:13.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:14. > :00:15.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:16. > :00:54.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:55. > :00:59.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:01:00. > :01:07.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:08. > :01:12.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:13. > :01:17.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:18. > :01:23.In the South: people who want to
:01:24. > :01:25.Everyone's talking about devolution to England now
:01:26. > :01:30.Will it just be more power to the northern cities or will we get
:01:31. > :01:46.powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step
:01:47. > :01:49.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the
:01:50. > :01:54.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,
:01:55. > :01:59.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to
:02:00. > :02:05.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,
:02:06. > :02:08.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and
:02:09. > :02:11.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when
:02:12. > :02:18.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:19. > :02:22.of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,
:02:23. > :02:32.the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It
:02:33. > :02:35.has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that
:02:36. > :02:42.they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only
:02:43. > :02:46.votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core
:02:47. > :02:49.justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the
:02:50. > :02:58.House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -
:02:59. > :03:00.cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David
:03:01. > :03:04.Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris
:03:05. > :03:08.Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr
:03:09. > :03:12.Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood
:03:13. > :03:22.and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he
:03:23. > :03:29.They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the
:03:30. > :03:37.Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is
:03:38. > :03:41.a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the
:03:42. > :03:45.ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He
:03:46. > :03:49.knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a
:03:50. > :03:53.draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they
:03:54. > :03:56.had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve
:03:57. > :04:03.these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they
:04:04. > :04:09.don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about
:04:10. > :04:13.is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at
:04:14. > :04:18.the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an
:04:19. > :04:21.overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern
:04:22. > :04:25.Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is
:04:26. > :04:30.whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he
:04:31. > :04:36.would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get
:04:37. > :04:40.either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause
:04:41. > :04:46.Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband
:04:47. > :04:49.this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why
:04:50. > :04:54.shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this
:04:55. > :04:59.morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and
:05:00. > :05:03.English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is
:05:04. > :05:07.in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his
:05:08. > :05:12.announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in
:05:13. > :05:15.Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if
:05:16. > :05:19.Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is
:05:20. > :05:23.handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural
:05:24. > :05:28.Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory
:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be
:05:32. > :05:34.in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet
:05:35. > :05:41.think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a
:05:42. > :05:44.partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on
:05:45. > :05:51.course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,
:05:52. > :05:54.and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the
:05:55. > :05:59.Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in
:06:00. > :06:03.sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this
:06:04. > :06:10.one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle
:06:11. > :06:13.to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband
:06:14. > :06:14.and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett
:06:15. > :06:16.Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,
:06:17. > :06:19.but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how
:06:20. > :06:21.the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,
:06:22. > :06:24.Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,
:06:25. > :06:26.because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher
:06:27. > :06:28.in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs
:06:29. > :06:30.aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the
:06:31. > :06:43.Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How
:06:44. > :06:47.can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just
:06:48. > :06:53.about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we
:06:54. > :06:56.are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers
:06:57. > :06:59.of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the
:07:00. > :07:03.wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we
:07:04. > :07:06.should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to
:07:07. > :07:10.the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett
:07:11. > :07:15.Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively
:07:16. > :07:19.prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance
:07:20. > :07:23.staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is
:07:24. > :07:26.more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland
:07:27. > :07:30.than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very
:07:31. > :07:34.poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That
:07:35. > :07:39.they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the
:07:40. > :07:45.Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand
:07:46. > :07:48.the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster
:07:49. > :07:53.politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to
:07:54. > :07:59.rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your
:08:00. > :08:03.leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of
:08:04. > :08:08.all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the
:08:09. > :08:10.Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was
:08:11. > :08:13.counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing
:08:14. > :08:18.voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep
:08:19. > :08:23.proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We
:08:24. > :08:27.said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes
:08:28. > :08:30.on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,
:08:31. > :08:34.pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of
:08:35. > :08:39.the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a
:08:40. > :08:44.Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double
:08:45. > :08:49.standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly
:08:50. > :08:56.unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is
:08:57. > :09:01.unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland
:09:02. > :09:07.gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London
:09:08. > :09:09.Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There
:09:10. > :09:17.is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.
:09:18. > :09:22.Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year
:09:23. > :09:29.revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5
:09:30. > :09:33.billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer
:09:34. > :09:37.investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a
:09:38. > :09:40.more federal system, we would need to look at things like the
:09:41. > :09:44.allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted
:09:45. > :09:48.as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party
:09:49. > :09:54.architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so
:09:55. > :09:58.it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to
:09:59. > :10:01.the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs
:10:02. > :10:06.basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of
:10:07. > :10:10.Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his
:10:11. > :10:14.promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English
:10:15. > :10:17.votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he
:10:18. > :10:22.made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked
:10:23. > :10:28.on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots
:10:29. > :10:32.of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at
:10:33. > :10:36.this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find
:10:37. > :10:40.that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot
:10:41. > :10:45.just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for
:10:46. > :10:49.all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more
:10:50. > :10:52.devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,
:10:53. > :10:56.and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's
:10:57. > :10:59.leave it there. Thank you for joining us.
:11:00. > :11:01.The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from
:11:02. > :11:03.the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex
:11:04. > :11:06.Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us
:11:07. > :11:08.another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand
:11:09. > :11:12.Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.
:11:13. > :11:15.In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,
:11:16. > :11:18.but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke
:11:19. > :11:40.The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for
:11:41. > :11:43.Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big
:11:44. > :11:47.screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories
:11:48. > :11:51.high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The
:11:52. > :11:56.other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is
:11:57. > :12:01.enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot
:12:02. > :12:13.papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000
:12:14. > :12:19.and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the
:12:20. > :12:22.first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like
:12:23. > :12:28.Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to
:12:29. > :12:38.sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you
:12:39. > :12:40.small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign
:12:41. > :12:47.applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went
:12:48. > :12:50.their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for
:12:51. > :12:55.independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of
:12:56. > :12:59.tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the
:13:00. > :13:05.refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy
:13:06. > :13:09.place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British
:13:10. > :13:14.establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this
:13:15. > :13:19.referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the
:13:20. > :13:24.establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.
:13:25. > :13:29.But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC
:13:30. > :13:35.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The
:13:36. > :13:37.result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the
:13:38. > :13:44.official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen
:13:45. > :13:49.three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as
:13:50. > :13:53.the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south
:13:54. > :13:58.as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if
:13:59. > :14:00.it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote
:14:01. > :14:05.separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,
:14:06. > :14:09.spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern
:14:10. > :14:14.Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take
:14:15. > :14:19.place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.
:14:20. > :14:28.It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See
:14:29. > :14:31.you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be
:14:32. > :14:38.another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There
:14:39. > :14:43.was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,
:14:44. > :14:48.his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the
:14:49. > :14:55.Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,
:14:56. > :14:57.the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader
:14:58. > :15:07.gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as
:15:08. > :15:12.First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last
:15:13. > :15:16.night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if
:15:17. > :15:21.it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I
:15:22. > :15:24.certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the
:15:25. > :15:30.referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...
:15:31. > :15:34.Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally
:15:35. > :15:42.made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the
:15:43. > :15:52.decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you
:15:53. > :15:57.get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real
:15:58. > :16:01.possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion
:16:02. > :16:05.but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of
:16:06. > :16:09.the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are
:16:10. > :16:13.the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my
:16:14. > :16:17.judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the
:16:18. > :16:22.National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.
:16:23. > :16:26.In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day
:16:27. > :16:32.approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought
:16:33. > :16:40.for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real
:16:41. > :16:43.chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the
:16:44. > :16:49.decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,
:16:50. > :16:52.the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from
:16:53. > :16:56.Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the
:16:57. > :17:01.offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across
:17:02. > :17:04.to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get
:17:05. > :17:12.something anyway without the perceived risks that were being
:17:13. > :17:19.festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.
:17:20. > :17:23.You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more
:17:24. > :17:30.power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is
:17:31. > :17:34.a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part
:17:35. > :17:38.of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire
:17:39. > :17:43.wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to
:17:44. > :17:47.be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see
:17:48. > :17:52.that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There
:17:53. > :17:56.are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the
:17:57. > :18:03.party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24
:18:04. > :18:06.years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many
:18:07. > :18:10.able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will
:18:11. > :18:18.do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take
:18:19. > :18:21.this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is
:18:22. > :18:25.developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that
:18:26. > :18:31.lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won
:18:32. > :18:35.end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days
:18:36. > :18:39.before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would
:18:40. > :18:46.change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There
:18:47. > :18:51.are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as
:18:52. > :18:56.a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will
:18:57. > :19:01.leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before
:19:02. > :19:04.Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I
:19:05. > :19:09.would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary
:19:10. > :19:13.campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving
:19:14. > :19:17.the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like
:19:18. > :19:20.of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon
:19:21. > :19:27.of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far
:19:28. > :19:38.almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you
:19:39. > :19:45.would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and
:19:46. > :19:49.pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him
:19:50. > :19:56.that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.
:19:57. > :20:00.The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was
:20:01. > :20:05.extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in
:20:06. > :20:14.the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair
:20:15. > :20:17.kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line
:20:18. > :20:21.and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish
:20:22. > :20:27.Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,
:20:28. > :20:37.certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in
:20:38. > :20:42.Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum
:20:43. > :20:47.wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that
:20:48. > :20:51.still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal
:20:52. > :20:56.view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK
:20:57. > :20:59.moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of
:21:00. > :21:03.circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and
:21:04. > :21:09.I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am
:21:10. > :21:13.just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally
:21:14. > :21:19.shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?
:21:20. > :21:22.You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that
:21:23. > :21:28.essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants
:21:29. > :21:30.to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that
:21:31. > :21:35.because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this
:21:36. > :21:39.and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are
:21:40. > :21:42.frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority
:21:43. > :21:47.in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an
:21:48. > :21:53.irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is
:21:54. > :21:57.movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something
:21:58. > :21:59.cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I
:22:00. > :22:06.think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It
:22:07. > :22:10.was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,
:22:11. > :22:16.effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and
:22:17. > :22:23.David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about
:22:24. > :22:30.the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that
:22:31. > :22:36.matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you
:22:37. > :22:41.advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or
:22:42. > :22:49.her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader
:22:50. > :22:53.brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very
:22:54. > :23:00.favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined
:23:01. > :23:03.since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in
:23:04. > :23:15.the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity
:23:16. > :23:19.for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would
:23:20. > :23:25.repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First
:23:26. > :23:29.Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of
:23:30. > :23:35.Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --
:23:36. > :23:39.substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my
:23:40. > :23:48.head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last
:23:49. > :23:55.line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not
:23:56. > :23:59.seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the
:24:00. > :24:04.Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?
:24:05. > :24:11.What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is
:24:12. > :24:14.dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose
:24:15. > :24:20.to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a
:24:21. > :24:22.constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line
:24:23. > :24:26.politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do
:24:27. > :24:33.it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom
:24:34. > :24:36.from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your
:24:37. > :24:39.feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to
:24:40. > :24:45.people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of
:24:46. > :24:56.Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes
:24:57. > :25:04.Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the
:25:05. > :25:08.independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general
:25:09. > :25:14.election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be
:25:15. > :25:18.talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men
:25:19. > :25:22.and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday
:25:23. > :25:27.Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the
:25:28. > :25:30.Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates
:25:31. > :25:34.say that the level of public spending during their last period of
:25:35. > :25:39.office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise
:25:40. > :25:43.taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On
:25:44. > :25:49.immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too
:25:50. > :25:52.high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates
:25:53. > :25:56.believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.
:25:57. > :26:02.Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the
:26:03. > :26:05.candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in
:26:06. > :26:11.five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change
:26:12. > :26:20.of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came
:26:21. > :26:24.in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:26:25. > :26:31.Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think
:26:32. > :26:34.I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't
:26:35. > :26:38.think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I
:26:39. > :26:43.think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many
:26:44. > :26:46.of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next
:26:47. > :26:49.generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your
:26:50. > :26:53.viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they
:26:54. > :26:57.can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the
:26:58. > :27:01.public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want
:27:02. > :27:04.to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they
:27:05. > :27:07.don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap
:27:08. > :27:12.Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party
:27:13. > :27:16.policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our
:27:17. > :27:20.policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over
:27:21. > :27:23.?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that
:27:24. > :27:31.enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk
:27:32. > :27:35.to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns
:27:36. > :27:39.about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,
:27:40. > :27:42.yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they
:27:43. > :27:46.take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural
:27:47. > :27:49.nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't
:27:50. > :27:55.think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's
:27:56. > :28:01.not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You
:28:02. > :28:05.described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you
:28:06. > :28:10.that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions
:28:11. > :28:13.that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t
:28:14. > :28:18.think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the
:28:19. > :28:22.heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,
:28:23. > :28:26.radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It
:28:27. > :28:36.isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will
:28:37. > :28:40.have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general
:28:41. > :28:44.election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.
:28:45. > :28:50.I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They
:28:51. > :28:54.are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a
:28:55. > :28:58.small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's
:28:59. > :29:02.pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or
:29:03. > :29:06.wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour
:29:07. > :29:14.is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old
:29:15. > :29:18.or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great
:29:19. > :29:23.country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can
:29:24. > :29:27.achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are
:29:28. > :29:30.not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of
:29:31. > :29:34.their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.
:29:35. > :29:37.Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we
:29:38. > :29:41.are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you
:29:42. > :29:44.want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between
:29:45. > :29:54.Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next
:29:55. > :29:56.government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that
:29:57. > :29:59.the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them
:30:00. > :30:04.think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.
:30:05. > :30:10.Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly
:30:11. > :30:14.representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member
:30:15. > :30:16.of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here
:30:17. > :30:21.to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.
:30:22. > :30:26.Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it
:30:27. > :30:30.should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help
:30:31. > :30:35.create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories
:30:36. > :30:39.we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have
:30:40. > :30:44.trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees
:30:45. > :30:47.to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or
:30:48. > :30:51.bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the
:30:52. > :30:59.tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's
:31:00. > :31:03.turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional
:31:04. > :31:05.conversation where you have to discuss whether English people
:31:06. > :31:10.voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions
:31:11. > :31:13.and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,
:31:14. > :31:22.we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying
:31:23. > :31:27.rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is
:31:28. > :31:30.the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where
:31:31. > :31:33.people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers
:31:34. > :31:39.talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point
:31:40. > :31:43.you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to
:31:44. > :31:48.vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you
:31:49. > :31:53.see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is
:31:54. > :31:56.an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so
:31:57. > :31:59.simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British
:32:00. > :32:06.constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of
:32:07. > :32:11.Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the
:32:12. > :32:15.transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In
:32:16. > :32:18.Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote
:32:19. > :32:22.on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different
:32:23. > :32:26.votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not
:32:27. > :32:29.necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in
:32:30. > :32:34.Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I
:32:35. > :32:39.think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy
:32:40. > :32:43.in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,
:32:44. > :32:46.Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to
:32:47. > :32:50.now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue
:32:51. > :32:55.of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in
:32:56. > :32:59.bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.
:33:00. > :33:03.What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give
:33:04. > :33:08.you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a
:33:09. > :33:11.rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and
:33:12. > :33:17.there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has
:33:18. > :33:21.vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell
:33:22. > :33:26.us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme
:33:27. > :33:29.right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on
:33:30. > :33:33.tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.
:33:34. > :33:38.Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable
:33:39. > :33:42.future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending
:33:43. > :33:45.for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many
:33:46. > :33:51.of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said
:33:52. > :33:54.that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing
:33:55. > :33:58.out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has
:33:59. > :34:00.done which is having already deprived communities having money
:34:01. > :34:05.taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We
:34:06. > :34:11.accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?
:34:12. > :34:16.There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to
:34:17. > :34:22.do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm
:34:23. > :34:25.not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --
:34:26. > :34:32.government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which
:34:33. > :34:35.is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in
:34:36. > :34:41.Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We
:34:42. > :34:45.have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,
:34:46. > :34:48.you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure
:34:49. > :34:53.necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this
:34:54. > :34:57.debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I
:34:58. > :35:01.want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The
:35:02. > :35:05.unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of
:35:06. > :35:08.the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up
:35:09. > :35:12.different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against
:35:13. > :35:15.what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we
:35:16. > :35:19.shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the
:35:20. > :35:24.minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which
:35:25. > :35:29.would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five
:35:30. > :35:37.years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back
:35:38. > :35:42.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I
:35:43. > :35:48.can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we
:35:49. > :35:51.have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if
:35:52. > :35:55.people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income
:35:56. > :35:59.tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in
:36:00. > :36:03.tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm
:36:04. > :36:08.not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid
:36:09. > :36:12.workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the
:36:13. > :36:17.payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they
:36:18. > :36:22.get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our
:36:23. > :36:25.proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at
:36:26. > :36:34.the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I
:36:35. > :36:38.cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if
:36:39. > :36:41.you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest
:36:42. > :36:44.paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down
:36:45. > :36:51.this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %
:36:52. > :36:55.and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I
:36:56. > :37:00.don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just
:37:01. > :37:04.don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out
:37:05. > :37:08.policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies
:37:09. > :37:10.before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their
:37:11. > :37:13.pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are
:37:14. > :37:18.also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as
:37:19. > :37:22.well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering
:37:23. > :37:25.great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge
:37:26. > :37:29.number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.
:37:30. > :37:32.The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three
:37:33. > :37:36.days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,
:37:37. > :37:38.not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:37:39. > :37:41.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:37:42. > :37:43.who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:44. > :37:49.we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing
:37:50. > :37:51.Labour as their conference starts My name's Alex Forsyth.
:37:52. > :38:05.the Sunday Politics where you are. On today's show, could we h`ve some
:38:06. > :38:09.of what the Scots are having please? Since Friday's referendum rdsult
:38:10. > :38:11.we've had increased calls The big cities,
:38:12. > :38:19.some kind of regional assembly, or perhaps the counties shotld be
:38:20. > :38:23.getting more power. First let's meet
:38:24. > :38:26.the two politicians who'll be with Peter Lamb is the Labour le`der
:38:27. > :38:32.of Crawley Borough Council, and Vikki Slade is the Liberal
:38:33. > :38:34.Democrat parliamentary candhdate As we saw with Andrew,
:38:35. > :38:40.it's the start of the Labour So we thought we'd get a sense
:38:41. > :38:45.of how the voters are feeling We went out onto the streets
:38:46. > :38:48.of Reading to ask people, "If Labour were an animal,
:38:49. > :38:59.what animal would it be?" They try and blend themselvds
:39:00. > :39:04.into what people want A lion, ruthless,
:39:05. > :39:13.but gets the job done. Because it is a big lumbering
:39:14. > :39:18.beast at the moment. An elephant, because they are big
:39:19. > :39:33.and friendly and they don't attack Lion.
:39:34. > :39:42.Cos I don't like lions. Maybe a dog.
:39:43. > :39:53.Loyal and a friend. A very conservative animal,
:39:54. > :40:18.something like a labrador. What animal do you think Labour is?
:40:19. > :40:28.I would go for elephant, we don t forget things, either. Never forget.
:40:29. > :40:33.Never forget the handling of the economy. I think we come out of the
:40:34. > :40:40.best side of history there. We can obsess about animals, it is a
:40:41. > :40:47.typical focus group question. We are trying to reconnect with people Not
:40:48. > :40:53.very complimentary, lumbering, stuck in the mud. You can't be popular
:40:54. > :41:01.with everyone, we want to focus on policies that help people. H cannot
:41:02. > :41:08.give you a free hit, so what about the Liberal Democrats? I wotld like
:41:09. > :41:14.to think a kangaroo as we bounce back. Or hop all over the place May
:41:15. > :41:20.be, but we have to represent what the people are saying. `` m`y be. We
:41:21. > :41:26.are local politicians that `spire to do much greater things. We bounce
:41:27. > :41:30.back. We get written off and we come back time and again, becausd people
:41:31. > :41:31.understand that we're trying to do the right thing for the that we
:41:32. > :41:35.represent. So, the Labour tribe is gathering in
:41:36. > :41:39.Manchester and our political editor He's been assessing the mood
:41:40. > :41:46.of southern delegates. Scotland is reverberating
:41:47. > :41:53.around this conference alre`dy. It may go away, of course,
:41:54. > :41:56.but here you can tell who wdnt Something about people's
:41:57. > :42:02.enthusiasm for politics. I think when you talk to people
:42:03. > :42:06.and say, "Would you "Over your local city,
:42:07. > :42:12.where you live, your town, All are areas that are big
:42:13. > :42:26.problems in the South East." A lot of people would say, "I would
:42:27. > :42:29.like to have more control." Alex Salmond is a consummatd
:42:30. > :42:33.politician, he has turned it around. There is
:42:34. > :42:36.an ideal that that has flowdd down All the party leaders, even Ed,
:42:37. > :42:42.are talking about a new way A couple of weeks ago,
:42:43. > :42:49.I said to Ed Miliband, "If xou're "thinking of doing a photo
:42:50. > :42:52.opportunity eating a bacon sandwich, He said, "Looks
:42:53. > :43:00.like you done enough practice." The huge challenge to face hs to
:43:01. > :43:02.attract all the people out there who ardn't
:43:03. > :43:05.voting, and haven't for years. When I did my surgery,
:43:06. > :43:10.we have people turning up and They know that the stakes are
:43:11. > :43:16.really high at this election. There is a huge choice for Dngland
:43:17. > :43:18.now about People have
:43:19. > :43:25.a clear choice next year to carry on with David Cameron in Downing
:43:26. > :43:28.Street or do you want changd? David Cameron and George Osborne cut
:43:29. > :43:36.taxes only for the richest people earning over ?150,000, whild most
:43:37. > :43:38.people are still worse off. We have a plan to make things better
:43:39. > :43:43.not just for a few, Isn't the change that is wanted not
:43:44. > :43:46.just politicians attacking other What people really want is something
:43:47. > :43:54.that will affect their lives. That is why we say reform the banks,
:43:55. > :43:57.increase the bank levy and give working parents 25 hours
:43:58. > :44:04.of free childcare. We say repeat the tax
:44:05. > :44:07.on bank bonuses and then get all our young people back to work
:44:08. > :44:10.as unemployment is bad. We say don't cut corporation tax
:44:11. > :44:12.for big companies, let's give more help to small
:44:13. > :44:15.businesses by cutting busindss rates These are real tangible
:44:16. > :44:20.policies that add up. In Scotland there was
:44:21. > :44:24.a clear choice, yes or no. Something that mattered not just
:44:25. > :44:27.for the term of a parliament, Can people in the South of Dngland
:44:28. > :44:32.get confused about politics When there aren't such clear
:44:33. > :44:55.choices and maybe not so much Peter there. Peter saying that a lot
:44:56. > :44:59.of people saying the Scottish referendum was a celebration of
:45:00. > :45:06.democracy. Such a high turnout. We have not seen that engagement
:45:07. > :45:13.anywhere house up to that point How do you think you can get th`t
:45:14. > :45:20.replicated? I find it worryhng to move away from politics. Wh`t
:45:21. > :45:29.when devolution 1st failed hn Scotland in the 1970s, the community
:45:30. > :45:34.came together. It was members of civil society and they came up with
:45:35. > :45:38.a new plan. That provided the blueprint. I think it is tile that
:45:39. > :45:44.the English are given the s`me opportunity. The opportunitx to have
:45:45. > :45:56.a conversation. A national Government. 1 advice real
:45:57. > :46:05.representation. `` 1 that provides. You have some work cut out for you
:46:06. > :46:06.to make inroads you need. You haven't really got that
:46:07. > :46:11.representation on the ground. You need to winning seats in thd south.
:46:12. > :46:16.What I going to do about th`t? We will win seats in the South. We go
:46:17. > :46:20.out and make sure that we pdrsuade people we are the party of choice.
:46:21. > :46:26.We increased our majority in Hastings. It is tiny. If yot look at
:46:27. > :46:33.the South, Labour are not anywhere near where you were in 1997. The
:46:34. > :46:36.reality is the south`east is tend to be a Conservative stronghold, but
:46:37. > :46:40.there are lots of areas where people recognise the difference th`t the
:46:41. > :46:49.Labour Party makes. We are seeing the swing. You can see it in the
:46:50. > :46:56.opinion polls. Labour doesn't have a huge lead. It is southern m`rshals
:46:57. > :47:03.that make the difference. L`bour is ahead. The Liberal Democrats have a
:47:04. > :47:07.similar problem. You have lost a lot of support. You have a tough battle
:47:08. > :47:10.ahead as you have being Govdrnment for four years and where yot are
:47:11. > :47:15.strong on the ground and thd grassroots is where the support has
:47:16. > :47:21.fallen away. I don't think ht has fallen away as much as you would
:47:22. > :47:28.suggest. What has fallen a way other people that look at us as a process
:47:29. > :47:33.party. `` protest. But a lot of people see our position in the
:47:34. > :47:41.middle ground is a good poshtion. They do not like you're right, they
:47:42. > :47:46.do not like the Conservativd tough, but careless and not actually caring
:47:47. > :47:50.about the people. They don't trust the Labour politician to buhld. .
:47:51. > :47:55.How can they trust you when you have made promises that were broken? And
:47:56. > :47:59.those they were made a lot of broken promises. We have one real problem
:48:00. > :48:04.with tuition fees and we accept that and it has apologise. There was an
:48:05. > :48:09.error of judgement. But we have delivered through all of thd four
:48:10. > :48:13.things that were on the front of our manifesto. Increasing the ldvel that
:48:14. > :48:20.you pay tax to ?10,000, triple lock mansion and a vote on the w`y that
:48:21. > :48:26.we vote. We promise things `nd they were delivered. Are you getting
:48:27. > :48:28.these policies through? You say there is disillusionment with
:48:29. > :48:33.Westminster politics, how'd you get the message out to people when you
:48:34. > :48:37.talk in terms of triple lock pensions and you are alreadx
:48:38. > :48:43.criticising the other partids. The areas that have a Liberal Ddmocrat
:48:44. > :48:48.MP, most of those MPs are so strong in their local area, they are very
:48:49. > :48:54.good constituency MPs. They have often been, as I am, a local
:48:55. > :48:58.Government, from the ground, we live in our communities, we have lived
:48:59. > :49:03.there for a long time and h`ve done local things. We truly understand
:49:04. > :49:08.communities. The people that have got those MPs really value them and
:49:09. > :49:12.I think that is what we havd to do. The Scottish referendum showed us
:49:13. > :49:18.about the people of Scotland want to be ruled closer. That is whx the SNP
:49:19. > :49:22.got such support. In the European elections, we saw UKIP banghng the
:49:23. > :49:27.drum about everything going to Brussels. We want to bring the
:49:28. > :49:30.decision`making home. Actually, by bringing MPs that come from the
:49:31. > :49:37.communities, we can do that and rebuild trust in their local MP to
:49:38. > :49:43.put their local area first. Briefly, you both face the UKIP thre`ts. They
:49:44. > :49:51.have made inroads. Are you worried? No. I don't see it locally. By a
:49:52. > :49:57.large... They appealed to L`bour voters. They're done very wdll
:49:58. > :50:04.across some parts. They cannot dismiss them. It is a process
:50:05. > :50:10.party. No one ever thought the Liberal Democrats would get into
:50:11. > :50:16.Government. Look how long it took. It's took 25 years and we h`ve
:50:17. > :50:17.achieved some great things. And I hope you `` I'm sure you want to do
:50:18. > :50:20.it again. Thank you both. Now you might have missed there
:50:21. > :50:23.was a referendum this week. No, not that one, it was ond
:50:24. > :50:26.in Burford in Oxfordshire. Maybe not quite such a largd
:50:27. > :50:29.electorate as in Scotland, but The result was No by an even
:50:30. > :50:34.larger margin than the other one. It was born of a sense that England
:50:35. > :50:37.wanted to get involved in the issue as well and had
:50:38. > :50:41.a real interest in the outcome. And it wasn't long after we knew
:50:42. > :50:43.that outcome that politicians started falling over one another to
:50:44. > :50:59.say that here in England we'll One of the big mistakes of the 980s
:51:00. > :51:03.was that we took away from County Councils and other unitary
:51:04. > :51:06.authorities much of the powdr that determined whether they werd
:51:07. > :51:11.effective in local Government. We took away much of their fundraising
:51:12. > :51:16.ability. I think there is a strong argument that says once we have
:51:17. > :51:20.started out the structure of the United Kingdom, maybe there is an
:51:21. > :51:24.argument for more devolution. I think we should now work with the
:51:25. > :51:30.kind of building blocks that people recognise, counties and cithes, but
:51:31. > :51:34.also make sure that those areas have got more powers to decide things for
:51:35. > :51:39.themselves, including raising more money than they presently c`n for
:51:40. > :51:44.themselves. I have long belheved that a crucial part missing from
:51:45. > :51:49.this national discussion is England. It is also important that wd have
:51:50. > :51:53.wider civic engagement about how to improve governance throughott our
:51:54. > :51:58.United Kingdom, including how to empower our great cities. The views
:51:59. > :52:03.of some of the party leaders there. Joining the hour is the leader of
:52:04. > :52:07.Hampshire county council. You hear the talk about decentralising
:52:08. > :52:14.power, but a lot of that talk is on the northern cities. There hs a risk
:52:15. > :52:18.if we had this talk of the cities, but you always hear me saying that
:52:19. > :52:24.people in the south, the grdat shires of England, is where the
:52:25. > :52:28.wealth creators are, and whdre we really want to exercise and
:52:29. > :52:32.demonstrate that we can use powers well, effectively and econolically
:52:33. > :52:37.and efficiently. I think yot will hear the voice of the shires. The
:52:38. > :52:43.voice of the northern cities tends to dominate this debate. Whdn you
:52:44. > :52:47.hear national politicians t`lking about decentralisation, there are
:52:48. > :52:54.further Liverpool and Manchdster. We had newspapers there asking for a
:52:55. > :53:03.foul in the North. Up to now, we have been concerned, it was a good
:53:04. > :53:09.news. It has to be a decision of Scotland. That is now past. We want
:53:10. > :53:12.more power into the localithes of England. I would bang the drum for
:53:13. > :53:19.the counties of England, certainly in the south`east, our GPA hs
:53:20. > :53:24.greater than London, and we are one of the only three regions in England
:53:25. > :53:28.that pay more in tax than they receive in benefits. The sotth`east
:53:29. > :53:33.is one and the East and the London, but the biggest is south`east. And
:53:34. > :53:39.the spend per head. The spend per head that Hampshire county council
:53:40. > :53:45.receives is ?116, that comp`res with other regions and other counties
:53:46. > :53:58.that get well over ?200. We are even lower than Essex and Kent. ?75 per
:53:59. > :54:03.head less in Kent. Far too luch control, far too much minutd detail
:54:04. > :54:09.being controlled in Westminster It has to come down to the counties.
:54:10. > :54:15.Talking to some of our guests. Eater, Labour made some attdmpt to
:54:16. > :54:22.devolve power. `` Peter. But they turned out to be talking shops. The
:54:23. > :54:26.problem with a regional assdmblies was that they were talking shops. If
:54:27. > :54:30.they had been offering people a real model. I remember discussion at the
:54:31. > :54:34.time, people saying they don't want more politicians who do nothing
:54:35. > :54:40.Every talk about real devolttion of the sort that Wales has, to control
:54:41. > :54:46.your health care, to control all your systems, that is different
:54:47. > :54:51.compared to controlling the regional development agencies. Give ` real
:54:52. > :54:58.opportunity. We should be s`ying we have the solutions. `` here are the
:54:59. > :55:04.solutions. We spend enough time saying we represent people, let let
:55:05. > :55:07.people have a direct say. B`ck and take an enormous amount of time How
:55:08. > :55:18.do you know people will eng`ge? That could take. Why would they want to
:55:19. > :55:23.get involved in some sort of technical constitutional convention?
:55:24. > :55:29.It was two years in the refdrendum. It's took two years on the back of
:55:30. > :55:34.decades. And during those ddcades... We haven't had that convers`tion. We
:55:35. > :55:43.are talking about decades. Ht is worth getting it right. The reason
:55:44. > :55:49.people don't get involved is that they interpret them as pointless
:55:50. > :55:55.conversation. I have to agrde. I don't think it has to take decades,
:55:56. > :56:00.but what happened in Scotland has energised the rest of the UK. ``
:56:01. > :56:04.energised. So many people in England were begging the Scots not to go.
:56:05. > :56:08.The fact they have had that and the factors people are much mord aware
:56:09. > :56:13.of the issues like the West Lothian question, although that may not be
:56:14. > :56:19.the answer, it would take this opportunity, we can grasp that
:56:20. > :56:23.chance. What we have to do hs be honourable to what was promhsed to
:56:24. > :56:27.Scotland now and then we nedd to not renege on that timetable. Then we
:56:28. > :56:31.need to have a twin track approach could do a similar thing for
:56:32. > :56:35.England, but it will be different answers in different places. You
:56:36. > :56:40.could have a citystate in Manchester. But that would not work
:56:41. > :56:43.in Dorset. The Prime Ministdr has said the two things should go
:56:44. > :56:49.hand`in`hand. It seems unre`listic to suggest that you can answer this
:56:50. > :56:54.by January. Labour politici`ns are saying they want is to kick it into
:56:55. > :56:57.the long grass. They are afraid of the West Lothian question how they
:56:58. > :57:01.know they would lose MPs from Scotland voting on affairs that
:57:02. > :57:05.affect England. I don't think we should allow Labour to kick it into
:57:06. > :57:15.the long grass. Is that what you were doing? There is only one
:57:16. > :57:21.election in history where the majority... I am not all th`t
:57:22. > :57:25.worried about that. I think we will get a majority in England. But when
:57:26. > :57:28.it comes down to getting a Government that works for the
:57:29. > :57:40.country, it is all well and good people saying they know what is
:57:41. > :57:49.best, but really to let in. When Cameron's expert was taking apart
:57:50. > :57:53.Cameron's proposal, because it is... What lack consensus that solething
:57:54. > :58:07.needs to change, but not how we achieve it. `` there is consensus.
:58:08. > :58:14.No gushing compliments for two of the region's water companies.
:58:15. > :58:18.Southern water and South East water get double the industry average
:58:19. > :58:21.number of complaints. Buckinghamshire county council has
:58:22. > :58:24.not got enough care is willhng to foster more than one child from the
:58:25. > :58:29.same family. Siblings are bding split up being cared for outside
:58:30. > :58:33.County. Children's services in Southampton
:58:34. > :58:37.got could do better verdict from Ofsted after the council apologised
:58:38. > :58:43.earlier for failing a number of vulnerable children.
:58:44. > :58:48.We are required to formulatd an action plan that will demonstrate
:58:49. > :58:53.how we will get two good. Btild more homes on green belt land saxs a new
:58:54. > :58:57.report. Farmers should be sdlling land to help pay for roads, railways
:58:58. > :59:05.and schools. Thames Valley Police is strtggling
:59:06. > :59:15.with the struggle `` with a shortage of community support officers.
:59:16. > :59:21.This idea that foster children are being spit up from their siblings
:59:22. > :59:25.because of shortage of carers, what can be done? We need more pdople to
:59:26. > :59:29.take on foster children and hopefully take on multiple `t once.
:59:30. > :59:39.What cannot do allow safegu`rds to fall. Tough job. Foster carhng is
:59:40. > :59:44.tough. There's not a lot of money to pay for foster caring. The
:59:45. > :59:49.difference between children in residential care foster card is
:59:50. > :59:53.absolutely vast. We may need to look seriously at how much we ard paying
:59:54. > :00:02.foster carers, as they're doing such an important job and the impact they
:00:03. > :00:07.have could be enormous. We have to be fair to the people that take that
:00:08. > :00:12.huge step of looking after other people's children. Very difficult to
:00:13. > :00:20.attract people to do such a tough job. How do you do it? It whll not
:00:21. > :00:25.be easy. It is not a simple answer. We have to protect children. But a
:00:26. > :00:29.part of it may be taken to fact that it is a lot cheaper, they'd wish
:00:30. > :00:32.take money from permanent accommodation and shift tow`rds
:00:33. > :00:34.foster caring. Not a simple question.
:00:35. > :00:37.That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests
:00:38. > :00:41.Next week we'll be taking a look at the Conservative conference in
:00:42. > :00:45.Birmingham and finding out what kind of animal people think sums them up.
:00:46. > :00:48.There'll be more from Peter Henley up in Manchester during the week
:00:49. > :00:57.on South Today, but for now it's back to Andrew
:00:58. > :00:59.the Conservative mayor's policy No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back
:01:00. > :01:07.to you. Welcome back the to Labour
:01:08. > :01:09.conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up
:01:10. > :01:13.comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy
:01:14. > :01:18.Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping
:01:19. > :01:20.speeches to rally the party faithful this week,
:01:21. > :01:23.he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man
:01:24. > :01:36.behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as
:01:37. > :01:39.well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more
:01:40. > :01:44.Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English
:01:45. > :01:47.laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and
:01:48. > :01:52.that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that I
:01:53. > :01:55.campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it
:01:56. > :01:59.in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the
:02:00. > :02:05.same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do
:02:06. > :02:11.that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,
:02:12. > :02:16.in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32
:02:17. > :02:20.years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,
:02:21. > :02:25.but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all
:02:26. > :02:32.around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35
:02:33. > :02:35.years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory
:02:36. > :02:41.dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's
:02:42. > :02:45.not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal
:02:46. > :02:48.structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal
:02:49. > :02:52.structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer
:02:53. > :02:56.representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the
:02:57. > :03:02.Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done
:03:03. > :03:07.in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and
:03:08. > :03:12.it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to
:03:13. > :03:15.get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English
:03:16. > :03:20.parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low
:03:21. > :03:26.politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in
:03:27. > :03:30.the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do
:03:31. > :03:33.not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he
:03:34. > :03:37.will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England
:03:38. > :03:41.vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level
:03:42. > :03:46.of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have
:03:47. > :03:49.been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see
:03:50. > :03:53.what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.
:03:54. > :03:57.But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to
:03:58. > :04:02.discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We
:04:03. > :04:06.had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of
:04:07. > :04:12.English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about
:04:13. > :04:16.trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly
:04:17. > :04:20.and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime
:04:21. > :04:24.commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and
:04:25. > :04:27.it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to
:04:28. > :04:32.British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the
:04:33. > :04:35.turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is
:04:36. > :04:38.phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real
:04:39. > :04:42.influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know
:04:43. > :04:46.you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it
:04:47. > :04:50.doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about
:04:51. > :04:53.equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The
:04:54. > :04:58.English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too
:04:59. > :05:02.long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving
:05:03. > :05:06.power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed
:05:07. > :05:10.Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same
:05:11. > :05:14.idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we
:05:15. > :05:17.really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver
:05:18. > :05:23.if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I
:05:24. > :05:28.live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city
:05:29. > :05:31.of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the
:05:32. > :05:36.north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those
:05:37. > :05:39.options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I
:05:40. > :05:43.might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in
:05:44. > :05:47.the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number
:05:48. > :05:50.of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper
:05:51. > :05:55.should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them
:05:56. > :05:58.together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to
:05:59. > :06:02.the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once
:06:03. > :06:07.you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate
:06:08. > :06:12.about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but
:06:13. > :06:14.decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament?
:06:15. > :06:19.Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's
:06:20. > :06:24.in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would
:06:25. > :06:29.disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The
:06:30. > :06:32.White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the
:06:33. > :06:37.commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people
:06:38. > :06:40.might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White
:06:41. > :06:44.Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been
:06:45. > :06:48.to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start
:06:49. > :06:55.looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the
:06:56. > :07:00.debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British
:07:01. > :07:03.socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the
:07:04. > :07:07.referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the
:07:08. > :07:12.Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional
:07:13. > :07:15.working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would
:07:16. > :07:24.say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the
:07:25. > :07:28.message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either
:07:29. > :07:33.the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas
:07:34. > :07:37.that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in
:07:38. > :07:40.Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and
:07:41. > :07:44.you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because
:07:45. > :07:49.that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on
:07:50. > :07:52.your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to
:07:53. > :08:01.the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an
:08:02. > :08:06.English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out
:08:07. > :08:12.I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was
:08:13. > :08:16.that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were
:08:17. > :08:20.against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to
:08:21. > :08:24.come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their
:08:25. > :08:28.share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was
:08:29. > :08:33.about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got
:08:34. > :08:40.any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?
:08:41. > :08:48.No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted
:08:49. > :08:55.yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech
:08:56. > :08:59.by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are
:09:00. > :09:06.many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just
:09:07. > :09:09.now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage You
:09:10. > :09:14.are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That
:09:15. > :09:18.is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and
:09:19. > :09:21.we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers
:09:22. > :09:25.with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,
:09:26. > :09:30.say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I
:09:31. > :09:34.have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a
:09:35. > :09:39.deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy
:09:40. > :09:43.it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for
:09:44. > :09:47.up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy
:09:48. > :09:51.the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not
:09:52. > :09:54.listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in
:09:55. > :09:59.three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling
:10:00. > :10:04.them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want
:10:05. > :10:08.commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing
:10:09. > :10:14.health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.
:10:15. > :10:17.That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered
:10:18. > :10:20.about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know
:10:21. > :10:25.it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.
:10:26. > :10:30.I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe
:10:31. > :10:34.it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the
:10:35. > :10:40.polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We
:10:41. > :10:45.haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to
:10:46. > :10:50.repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is
:10:51. > :10:54.quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying
:10:55. > :11:00.to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given
:11:01. > :11:03.2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the
:11:04. > :11:10.next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the
:11:11. > :11:14.proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when
:11:15. > :11:19.we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and
:11:20. > :11:25.that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys
:11:26. > :11:30.run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under
:11:31. > :11:36.Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is
:11:37. > :11:40.still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,
:11:41. > :11:44.but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible
:11:45. > :11:47.discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about
:11:48. > :11:51.finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We
:11:52. > :11:55.need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell
:11:56. > :11:58.me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting
:11:59. > :12:02.screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown
:12:03. > :12:08.coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did
:12:09. > :12:13.a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen
:12:14. > :12:19.when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette
:12:20. > :12:28.Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not
:12:29. > :12:38.true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?
:12:39. > :12:46.You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping
:12:47. > :12:53.comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got
:12:54. > :12:58.that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former
:12:59. > :13:00.Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are
:13:01. > :13:02.useless. my guests. I'll be back here at
:13:03. > :13:06.Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring
:13:07. > :13:11.you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday
:13:12. > :13:17.you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:18. > :13:23.it's the Sunday Politics.