:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:48.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:49. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:17.In the south, the Chancellor is go head-to-head.
:01:18. > :01:18.In the south, the Chancellor is promising millions for new
:01:19. > :01:32.affordable homes but will it be And with me, Tom Newton Dunn,
:01:33. > :01:34.Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting
:01:35. > :01:37.throughout the programme Political leaders around the world
:01:38. > :01:44.have been reacting to the news of the death of Fidel Castro,
:01:45. > :01:46.the Cuban revolutionary who came to power in 1959 and ushered
:01:47. > :01:50.in a Marxist revolution. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
:01:51. > :01:55.described the former leader as an "historic if controversial
:01:56. > :01:58.figure" and said his death marked Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said
:01:59. > :02:02.Castro was "a champion of social justice" who had "seen off
:02:03. > :02:05.a lot of US presidents" President-elect Donald Trump
:02:06. > :02:09.described the former Cuban leader as a "brutal dictator",
:02:10. > :02:12.adding that he hoped his death would begin a new era
:02:13. > :02:16."in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom
:02:17. > :02:21.they so richly deserve". Meanwhile, the President
:02:22. > :02:22.of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker,
:02:23. > :02:25.said the controversial leader was "a hero for many"
:02:26. > :02:42.but "his legacy will be judged I guess we had worked that out
:02:43. > :02:46.ourselves. What do you make of the reactions so far across the
:02:47. > :02:51.political divide? Predictable. And I noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come
:02:52. > :02:58.in for criticism for his tribute to Castro. But I think it was the right
:02:59. > :03:02.thing for him to do. We all know he was an admirer. He could have sat
:03:03. > :03:05.there for eight hours in his house, agonising over some bland statement
:03:06. > :03:09.which didn't alienate the many people who want to wade into
:03:10. > :03:12.attacked Castro. It would have been inauthentic and would have just
:03:13. > :03:16.added to the sort of mainstream consensus, and I think he was right
:03:17. > :03:21.to say what he believed in this respect. Elsewhere, it has been
:03:22. > :03:28.wholly predictable that there would be this device, because he divided
:03:29. > :03:31.opinion in such an emotive way. Steve, I take your point about
:03:32. > :03:35.authenticity and it might have looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn
:03:36. > :03:41.to pretend that he had no affection for Fidel Castro at all, but do you
:03:42. > :03:46.think he made a bit of an error dismissing Castro's record, the
:03:47. > :03:52.negative side of it as just a floor? He could have acknowledged in more
:03:53. > :03:56.elaborate terms the huge costs. He wanted to go on about the health and
:03:57. > :03:59.education, which if you actually look up the indices on that, they
:04:00. > :04:04.are good relative to other countries. But they have come at
:04:05. > :04:09.such a huge cost. He was not a champion of criminal justice. If he
:04:10. > :04:15.had done that, it would have been utterly inauthentic. He doesn't
:04:16. > :04:19.believe it. And he would have thought there would be many other
:04:20. > :04:26.people focusing on all the epic failings. So he focused on what he
:04:27. > :04:31.believed. There are times when Corbyn's prominence in the media
:04:32. > :04:36.world now as leader widens the debate in an interesting and
:04:37. > :04:47.important way. I am not aware of any criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever
:04:48. > :04:52.announced about Mr Castro. There were four words in his statement
:04:53. > :04:59.yesterday which is spin doctor would have forced him to say, for all his
:05:00. > :05:06.flaws. He was on this Cuban solidarity committee, which didn't
:05:07. > :05:09.exist to criticise Castro. It existed to help protect Castro from
:05:10. > :05:13.those, particularly the Americans, who were trying to undermine him.
:05:14. > :05:17.And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday saying he has always called out
:05:18. > :05:24.human rights abuses all over the world. But he said that in general,
:05:25. > :05:32.I call out human rights abuses. He never said, I have called out human
:05:33. > :05:39.rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks ahead, more will come out about what
:05:40. > :05:45.these human rights abuses were. The lid will come off what was actually
:05:46. > :05:51.happening. Some well authenticated stories are pretty horrendous. I was
:05:52. > :05:55.speaking to a journalist who was working there in the 1990s, who gave
:05:56. > :06:02.me vivid examples of that, and there will be more to come. I still go
:06:03. > :06:06.back to, when a major figure diet and you are a leader who has admired
:06:07. > :06:19.but major figure, you have to say it. That is the trap he has fallen
:06:20. > :06:30.into. He has proved every criticism that he is a duck old ideologue. But
:06:31. > :06:36.he is not the only one. Prime Minister Trudeau was so if uses that
:06:37. > :06:41.I wondered if they were going to open up a book of condolences. I
:06:42. > :06:46.think it reinforces Corbyn's failing brand. It may be authentic, but
:06:47. > :06:53.authentic isn't working for him. When I was driving, I heard Trevor
:06:54. > :06:57.Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying the record was mixed and there were
:06:58. > :07:02.a lot of things to admire as well as all the terrible things. So it is
:07:03. > :07:05.quite nuanced. But if you are a leader issuing a sound bite, there
:07:06. > :07:10.is no space for new ones. You either decide to go for the consensus,
:07:11. > :07:16.which is to set up on the whole, it was a brutal dictatorship. Or you
:07:17. > :07:22.say, here is an extraordinary figure worthy of admiration. In my view, he
:07:23. > :07:24.was right to say what he believed. There was still a dilemma for the
:07:25. > :07:30.British government over who they sent to the funeral. Do they sent
:07:31. > :07:35.nobody, do they say and Boris Johnson as a post-ironic statement?
:07:36. > :07:43.There is now a post-Castro Cuba to deal with. Trump was quite
:07:44. > :07:50.diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba. And Boris Johnson's statement was
:07:51. > :07:56.restrained. The thing about Mr Castro was the longevity, 50 years
:07:57. > :07:57.of keeping Marxism on the island. That was what made it so
:07:58. > :07:59.fascinating. Before the last election,
:08:00. > :08:02.George Osborne promised the NHS in England a real-terms funding
:08:03. > :08:06.boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020 on the understanding that NHS bosses
:08:07. > :08:09.would also find ?22 billion worth Since last autumn, NHS managers have
:08:10. > :08:16.been drawing up what they're calling "Sustainability and Transformation
:08:17. > :08:19.Plans" to make these savings, but some of the proposals
:08:20. > :08:25.are already running into local opposition, while Labour say
:08:26. > :08:28.they amount to huge cuts to the NHS. Help is on the way for an elderly
:08:29. > :08:34.person in need in Hertfordshire. But east of England ambulance
:08:35. > :08:37.call operators they're sending an early
:08:38. > :08:42.intervention vehicle with a council-employed occupational
:08:43. > :08:49.therapist on board. It's being piloted here
:08:50. > :08:51.for over 65s with When they arrive, a paramedic judges
:08:52. > :08:57.if the patient can be treated immediately at home
:08:58. > :09:00.without a trip to hospital. Around 80% of patients have
:09:01. > :09:02.been treated this way, taking the strain off
:09:03. > :09:05.urgently-needed hospital beds, So the early intervention team has
:09:06. > :09:11.assessed the patient and decided The key to successful integration
:09:12. > :09:24.for Hertfordshire being able to collaboratively look at how
:09:25. > :09:26.we use our resources, to have pooled budgets,
:09:27. > :09:28.to allow us to understand where spend is, and to let us make
:09:29. > :09:32.conscientious decisions about how best to use that money,
:09:33. > :09:36.to come up with ideas to problems that sit between our organisations,
:09:37. > :09:39.to look at things collaboratively. This Hertfordshire hospital is also
:09:40. > :09:41.a good example of how You won't find an A unit
:09:42. > :09:49.or overnight beds here any more. The closest ones are 20 minutes
:09:50. > :09:54.down the road. What's left is nurse-led care
:09:55. > :09:56.in an NHS-built hospital. Despite a politically toxic change,
:09:57. > :10:00.this reconfiguration went through after broad public
:10:01. > :10:02.and political consultation with hospital clinicians
:10:03. > :10:06.and GPs on board. It's a notable achievement that's
:10:07. > :10:10.surely of interest to 60% of NHS trusts in England that reported
:10:11. > :10:16.a deficit at the end of September. It's not just here that the NHS
:10:17. > :10:19.needs to save money and provide The Government is going to pour
:10:20. > :10:26.in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS in England, but it has
:10:27. > :10:32.demanded ?22 billion worth of efficiencies
:10:33. > :10:34.across the country. In order to deliver that,
:10:35. > :10:36.the NHS has created 44 health and care partnerships,
:10:37. > :10:39.and each one will provide a sustainability and transformation
:10:40. > :10:43.plan, or STP, to integrate care, provide better services
:10:44. > :10:47.and save money. So far, 33 of these 44 regional
:10:48. > :10:52.plans, drawn up by senior people in the health service
:10:53. > :10:54.and local government, The NHS has been through five years
:10:55. > :11:01.of severely constrained spending growth, and there are another 4-5
:11:02. > :11:04.years on the way at least. STPs themselves are an attempt
:11:05. > :11:10.to deal in a planned way But with plans to close some A
:11:11. > :11:17.units and reduce the number of hospital beds, there's likely
:11:18. > :11:22.to be a tough political battle ahead, with many MPs already up
:11:23. > :11:26.in arms about proposed This Tory backbencher is concerned
:11:27. > :11:29.about the local plans for his I wouldn't call it an efficiency
:11:30. > :11:37.if you are proposing to close all of the beds which are currently
:11:38. > :11:41.provided for those coming out of the acute sector
:11:42. > :11:43.who are elderly and looking That's not a cut, it's not
:11:44. > :11:47.an efficiency saving, All 44 STPs should be
:11:48. > :11:55.published in a month's time, But even before that,
:11:56. > :12:00.they dominated this week's PMQs. The Government's sustainability
:12:01. > :12:03.and transformation plans for the National Health Service hide
:12:04. > :12:08.?22 billion of cuts. The National Health Service
:12:09. > :12:11.is indeed looking for savings within the NHS, which will be
:12:12. > :12:16.reinvested in the NHS. There will be no escape from angry
:12:17. > :12:20.MPs for the Health Secretary either. Well, I have spoken to the Secretary
:12:21. > :12:23.of State just this week about the importance of community
:12:24. > :12:28.hospitals in general, These are proposals
:12:29. > :12:34.out to consultation. What could happen if these
:12:35. > :12:38.plans get blocked? If STPs cannot be made to work,
:12:39. > :12:42.the planned changes don't come to pass, then the NHS will see over
:12:43. > :12:47.time a sort of unplanned deterioration and services becoming
:12:48. > :12:49.unstable and service The NHS barely featured in this
:12:50. > :12:55.week's Autumn Statement but the Prime Minister insisted
:12:56. > :13:02.beforehand that STPs are in the interests
:13:03. > :13:04.of local people. Her Government's support will now be
:13:05. > :13:06.critical for NHS England to push through these
:13:07. > :13:08.controversial regional plans, which will soon face
:13:09. > :13:15.public scrutiny. We did ask the Department
:13:16. > :13:20.of Health for an interview, I've been joined by
:13:21. > :13:39.the Shadow Health Secretary, Do you accept that the NHS is
:13:40. > :13:42.capable of making ?22 billion of efficiency savings? Well, we are
:13:43. > :13:47.very sceptical, as are number of independent organisations about the
:13:48. > :13:50.ability of the NHS to find 22 billion of efficiencies without that
:13:51. > :13:55.affecting front line care. When you drill down into the 22 billion,
:13:56. > :13:58.based on the information we have been given, and there hasn't been
:13:59. > :14:02.much information, we can see that some of it will come from cutting
:14:03. > :14:06.the budget which go to community pharmacies, which could lead,
:14:07. > :14:10.according to ministers, to 3000 pharmacies closing, which we believe
:14:11. > :14:15.will increase demands on A and GPs, and also that a lot of these
:14:16. > :14:20.changes which are being proposed, which was the focus of the package,
:14:21. > :14:28.we think will mean service cuts at a local level. Do they? The chief
:14:29. > :14:32.executive of NHS England says these efficiency plans are "Incredibly
:14:33. > :14:36.important". He used to work from Labour. The independent King's Fund
:14:37. > :14:45.calls them "The best hope to improve health and care services. There is
:14:46. > :14:49.no plan B". On the sustainable transformation plans, which will be
:14:50. > :14:53.across England to link up physical health, mental health and social
:14:54. > :14:56.care, for those services to collaborate more closely together
:14:57. > :15:01.and move beyond the fragmented system we have at the moment is
:15:02. > :15:06.important. It seems that the ground has shifted. It has moved into
:15:07. > :15:11.filling financial gaps. As we know, the NHS is going through the biggest
:15:12. > :15:14.financial squeeze in its history. By 2018, per head spending on the NHS
:15:15. > :15:18.will be falling. If you want to redesign services for the long term
:15:19. > :15:24.in a local area, you need to put the money in. So of course, getting
:15:25. > :15:27.these services working better together and having a greater
:15:28. > :15:30.strategic oversight, which we would have had if we had not got rid of
:15:31. > :15:36.strategic health authority is in the last Parliament. But this is not an
:15:37. > :15:39.attempt to save 22 billion, this is an attempt to spend 22 billion more
:15:40. > :15:50.successfully, don't you accept that? Simon Stevens said we need 8
:15:51. > :15:56.billion, and we need to find 22 billion of savings. You have to
:15:57. > :16:00.spend 22 billion more efficiently. But the Government have not given
:16:01. > :16:07.that 8 billion to the NHS which they said they would. They said they
:16:08. > :16:12.would do it by 2020. But they have changed the definitions of spending
:16:13. > :16:16.so NHS England will get 8 billion by 2020, but they have cut the public
:16:17. > :16:21.health budgets by about 4 million by 20 20. The budget that going to
:16:22. > :16:26.initiatives to tackle sexually transmitted diseases, to tackle
:16:27. > :16:31.smoking have been cut back but the commissioning of things like school
:16:32. > :16:35.nurses and health visitors have been cut back as well. Simon Stevens said
:16:36. > :16:39.he can only deliver that five-year project if there is a radical
:16:40. > :16:44.upgrade in public health, which the Government have failed on, and if we
:16:45. > :16:48.deal with social care, and this week there was an... I understand that,
:16:49. > :16:56.but if you don't think the efficiency drive can free up 22
:16:57. > :17:01.billion to take us to 30 billion by 2020, where would you get the money
:17:02. > :17:04.from? I have been in this post now for five or six weeks and I want to
:17:05. > :17:09.have a big consultation with everybody who works in the health
:17:10. > :17:18.sector, as well as patients, carers and families. Though you don't know?
:17:19. > :17:22.I think it would be surprised if I had an arbitrary figure this soon
:17:23. > :17:28.into the job. Your party said they expected election of spring by this
:17:29. > :17:33.year, you need to have some idea by now, you inherited a portfolio from
:17:34. > :17:37.Diane Abbott, did she have no idea? To govern is to make choices and we
:17:38. > :17:45.would make different choices. The budget last year scored billions of
:17:46. > :17:56.giveaways in things like co-operating -- corporation tax.
:17:57. > :18:01.What I do want to do... Is work on a plan and the general election,
:18:02. > :18:07.whenever it comes, next year or in 2020 or in between, to have costed
:18:08. > :18:12.plan for the NHS. But your party is committed to balancing the books on
:18:13. > :18:16.current spending, that is currently John McDonnell, the Shadow
:18:17. > :18:21.Chancellor's position. What we are talking about, this extra 30
:18:22. > :18:25.billion, that is essentially current spending so if it doesn't come from
:18:26. > :18:32.efficiency savings, where does the money come from? Some of it is also
:18:33. > :18:37.capital. Mainly current spending. If you look at the details of the OBR,
:18:38. > :18:46.they have switched a million from the capital into revenue. Why -- how
:18:47. > :18:52.do you balance spending? That is why we need to have a
:18:53. > :19:00.debate. Every time we ask for Labour's policy, we are always told
:19:01. > :19:04.me a debate. Surely it is time to give some idea of what you stand
:19:05. > :19:09.for? There's huge doubts about the Government 's policy on this. You
:19:10. > :19:12.are the opposition, how would you do it? I want to work with John
:19:13. > :19:17.McDonnell to find a package to give the NHS the money it needs, but of
:19:18. > :19:21.course our Shadow Chancellor, like any Shadow Chancellor at this stage
:19:22. > :19:28.in the cycle, will want to see what the books look like a head of an
:19:29. > :19:31.election before making commitments. I am clear that the Labour Party has
:19:32. > :19:34.to go into the next general election with a clear policy to give the NHS
:19:35. > :19:38.the funding it needs because it has been going through the largest
:19:39. > :19:43.financial squeeze in its history. You say Labour will always give the
:19:44. > :19:48.NHS the money it needs, that is not a policy, it is a blank cheque. It
:19:49. > :19:53.is an indication of our commitment to the NHS. Under this Conservative
:19:54. > :19:56.government, the NHS has been getting a 1% increase. Throughout its
:19:57. > :20:02.history it has usually have about 4%. Under the last Labour government
:20:03. > :20:06.it was getting 4%, before that substantially more. We think the NHS
:20:07. > :20:14.should get more but I don't have access to the NHS books in front of
:20:15. > :20:19.me. The public thinks there needs to be more money spent on health but
:20:20. > :20:23.they also think that should go cap in hand with the money being more
:20:24. > :20:29.efficiently spent, which is what this efficiency drive is designed to
:20:30. > :20:34.release 22 billion. Do you have an efficiency drive if it is not the
:20:35. > :20:40.Government's one? Of course we agree. We agree the NHS should be
:20:41. > :20:47.more efficient, we want to see productivity increased. Do know how
:20:48. > :20:53.to do that? One way is through investments, maintenance, but there
:20:54. > :21:00.is a 5 million maintenance backlog. One of the most high risk backlogs
:21:01. > :21:04.is something like 730 million. They are going to switch the capital
:21:05. > :21:08.spend into revenue spend. I believe that when you invest in maintenance
:21:09. > :21:12.and capital in the NHS, that contribute to increasing its
:21:13. > :21:15.productivity. You are now talking about 5 billion the maintenance, the
:21:16. > :21:22.chief executive says it needs 30 billion more by 2020 as a minimum so
:21:23. > :21:29.that 35 billion. You want to spend more on social care, another for 5
:21:30. > :21:33.billion on that so we have proper care in the community. By that
:21:34. > :21:37.calculation I'm up to about 40 billion, which is fine, except where
:21:38. > :21:42.do you get the and balance the account at the same time? We will
:21:43. > :21:45.have to come up with a plan for that and that's why I will work with our
:21:46. > :21:49.Shadow Treasury team to come up with that plan when they head into the
:21:50. > :21:53.general election. At the moment we are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are
:21:54. > :21:59.not going to give you the investment, which is why we are
:22:00. > :22:06.seeing patient care deteriorating. The staff are doing incredible
:22:07. > :22:11.things but 180,000 are waiting in A beyond four hours, record levels
:22:12. > :22:14.of people delayed in beds in hospitals because there are not the
:22:15. > :22:18.beds in the community to go to save the NHS needs the investment. We
:22:19. > :22:22.know that and we know the Government's response to that and
:22:23. > :22:26.many think it is inadequate. What I'm trying to get from you is what
:22:27. > :22:31.your response would be and what your reaction will be to these efficiency
:22:32. > :22:37.plans. Your colleague Heidi Alexander, she had your job earlier
:22:38. > :22:41.this year, she warned of the danger of knee jerk blanket opposition to
:22:42. > :22:48.local efficiency plans. Do you agree with that? Yes. So every time a
:22:49. > :22:53.hospital is going to close as a result of this, and some will, it is
:22:54. > :22:58.Labour default position not just going to be we are against it? That
:22:59. > :23:03.is why we are going to judge each of these sustainability plans by a
:23:04. > :23:06.number of yardsticks. We want to see if they have the support of local
:23:07. > :23:09.clinicians, we want to see if they have the support of local
:23:10. > :23:13.authorities because they now have a role in the delivery of health care.
:23:14. > :23:17.We want to see if they make the right decisions for the long-term
:23:18. > :23:21.trends in population for local area. We want to see if they integrate
:23:22. > :23:26.social care and health. If they don't and therefore you will not
:23:27. > :23:32.bank that as an efficiency saving, you will say no, that's not the way
:23:33. > :23:37.to go, you are left then with finding the alternative funding to
:23:38. > :23:40.keep the NHS going. If you are cutting beds, for example the
:23:41. > :23:47.proposal is to cut something like 5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there
:23:48. > :23:50.is the space in the community sector in Derbyshire, that will cause big
:23:51. > :23:56.problems for the NHS in the long term so it is a false economy. An
:23:57. > :24:00.example like that, we would be very sceptical the plans could work.
:24:01. > :24:03.Would it not be honest, given the sums of money involved and your
:24:04. > :24:08.doubts about the efficiency plan, which are shared by many people, to
:24:09. > :24:14.just say, look, among the wealthy nations, we spend a lower proportion
:24:15. > :24:20.of our GDP on health than most of the other countries, European
:24:21. > :24:27.countries included, we need to put up tax if we want a proper NHS.
:24:28. > :24:31.Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the Shadow Chancellor, I don't make
:24:32. > :24:37.taxation policy. You are tempting me down a particular road by you or I
:24:38. > :24:41.smile. John McDonnell will come up with our taxation policy. We have
:24:42. > :24:44.had an ambition to meet the European average, the way these things are
:24:45. > :24:50.measured have changed since then, but we did have that ambition and
:24:51. > :24:54.for a few years we met it. We need substantial investment in the NHS.
:24:55. > :24:57.Everyone accepts it was extraordinary that there wasn't an
:24:58. > :25:01.extra penny for the NHS in the Autumn Statement this week. And as
:25:02. > :25:07.we go into the general election, whenever it is, we will have a plan
:25:08. > :25:09.for the NHS. Come back and speak to us when you know what you are going
:25:10. > :25:11.to do. Thank you. Theresa May has promised to trigger
:25:12. > :25:14.formal Brexit negotiations before the end of March,
:25:15. > :25:16.but the Prime Minister must wait for the Supreme Court to decide
:25:17. > :25:19.whether parliament must vote If that is the Supreme Court's
:25:20. > :25:22.conclusion, the Liberal Democrats and others in parliament have said
:25:23. > :25:25.they'll demand a second EU referendum on the terms
:25:26. > :25:27.of the eventual Brexit deal before And last week, two former
:25:28. > :25:30.Prime Ministers suggested that the referendum result
:25:31. > :25:33.could be reversed. In an interview with
:25:34. > :25:37.the New Statesman on Thursday, Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped
:25:38. > :25:40.if the British people decide that, having seen what it means,
:25:41. > :25:42.the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis John Major also weighed
:25:43. > :25:49.in, telling a meeting of the National Liberal Club
:25:50. > :25:51.that the terms of Brexit were being dictated
:25:52. > :25:53.by the "tyranny of the majority". He also said there is
:25:54. > :25:55.a "perfectly credible case" That prompted the former
:25:56. > :25:59.Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John
:26:00. > :26:03.Major. He told the BBC, "The idea
:26:04. > :26:05.we delay everything simply because they disagree
:26:06. > :26:07.with the original result does seem to me an absolute
:26:08. > :26:12.dismissal of democracy." So, is there a realistic chance
:26:13. > :26:15.of a second referendum on the terms of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May
:26:16. > :26:20.manages to secure? Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has
:26:21. > :26:24.said, "We want to respect the will of the people and that
:26:25. > :26:27.means they must have their say in a referendum on the terms
:26:28. > :26:30.of the deal." But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs
:26:31. > :26:34.- they'll need Labour support One ally is former Labour leadership
:26:35. > :26:39.candidate Owen Smith. He backs the idea of
:26:40. > :26:43.a second referendum. But yesterday the party's deputy
:26:44. > :26:46.leader, Tom Watson, said that, "Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers,
:26:47. > :26:48.we believe in respecting To discuss whether or not
:26:49. > :26:56.there should be a second referendum on the terms of the Brexit deal,
:26:57. > :26:59.I've been joined by two In Somerset is the former Lib Dem
:27:00. > :27:02.leader Paddy Ashdown, and in Shropshire is the former
:27:03. > :27:14.Conservative cabinet minister Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you
:27:15. > :27:19.first. When the British people have spoken, you do what they command,
:27:20. > :27:24.either you believe in democracy or you don't. When democracy speaks, we
:27:25. > :27:31.obey. Your words on the night of the referendum, what's changed? Nothing
:27:32. > :27:34.has changed, Andrew, that's what I said and what I still believe in.
:27:35. > :27:42.The British people have spoken, we will not block Parliament debating
:27:43. > :27:48.the Brexit decision, Article 50, but we will introduce an amendment to
:27:49. > :27:51.say that we need to consult the British people, not about if we go
:27:52. > :27:59.out but what destination we would then achieve. There is a vast
:28:00. > :28:03.difference in ordinary people's lives between the so-called hard
:28:04. > :28:08.Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit, you remain in the single market, you
:28:09. > :28:13.have to accept and agree on immigration. Hard Brexit you are out
:28:14. > :28:20.of the single market, we have many fewer jobs... Why didn't you say
:28:21. > :28:26.before the referendum there would be a second referendum on the terms?
:28:27. > :28:30.Forgive me, I said it on many occasions, you may not have covered
:28:31. > :28:36.it, Andrew, but that's a different thing. In every speech I gave I said
:28:37. > :28:39.this, and this has proved to be true, since those who recommended
:28:40. > :28:44.Brexit refused to tell us the destination they were recommending,
:28:45. > :28:48.they refuse to give any detail about the destination, if we did vote to
:28:49. > :28:52.go out, it would probably be appropriate to decide which
:28:53. > :28:56.destination, hard Brexit or soft Brexit we go to. They deliberately
:28:57. > :29:00.obscure that because it made it more difficult to argue the case. It
:29:01. > :29:06.wasn't part of the official campaign but let me come to Owen Paterson.
:29:07. > :29:11.What's wrong with a referendum on the terms of the deal? We voted to
:29:12. > :29:15.leave but we don't really know on what conditions we leave so what's
:29:16. > :29:22.wrong with negotiating the deal and putting that deal to the British
:29:23. > :29:28.people? This would be a ridiculous idea, it would be a complete gift to
:29:29. > :29:31.the EU negotiators to go for an impossibly difficult deal because
:29:32. > :29:36.they want to do everything to make sure that Brexit does not go
:29:37. > :29:40.through. This nonsense idea of hard Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never
:29:41. > :29:44.discussed during the referendum campaign. We made it clear we wanted
:29:45. > :29:50.to take back control, that means making our own laws, raising and
:29:51. > :29:53.spending the money agreed by elected politicians, getting control of our
:29:54. > :29:57.own borders back, and getting control of our ability to do trade
:29:58. > :30:03.deals around the world. That was clear at all stages of the
:30:04. > :30:08.referendum. We got 17.4 million votes, the biggest vote in history
:30:09. > :30:13.for any issue, that 52%, 10% more than John Major got and he was happy
:30:14. > :30:17.with his record number of 14 million, more than Tony Blair got,
:30:18. > :30:21.which was 43%, so we have a very clear mandate. Time and again people
:30:22. > :30:27.come up to me and say when are we going to get on with this. The big
:30:28. > :30:30.problem is uncertainty. We want to trigger Article 50, have the
:30:31. > :30:36.negotiation and get to a better place.
:30:37. > :30:42.OK, I need to get a debate going. Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want
:30:43. > :30:45.us to leave. If they knew there was going to be a second referendum,
:30:46. > :30:47.surely there was going to be a second referendum, surely their
:30:48. > :30:52.incentive would be to give us the worst possible deal would vote
:30:53. > :30:55.against it would put us in a ridiculous negotiating position. On
:30:56. > :31:00.the contrary, the government could go and negotiate with the European
:31:01. > :31:02.Union and anyway, the opinion of the European Union is less important
:31:03. > :31:06.than the opinion of the British people. It seems to me that Owen
:31:07. > :31:13.Paterson made the case for me precisely. They refuse to discuss
:31:14. > :31:17.what kind of destination. Britain voted for departure, but not a
:31:18. > :31:22.destination. Because Owen Paterson and his colleagues refused to
:31:23. > :31:25.discuss what their model was. So the range of options here and the impact
:31:26. > :31:28.on the people of Britain is huge. There is nothing to stop the
:31:29. > :31:33.government going to negotiate, getting the best deal it can and go
:31:34. > :31:41.into the British people and saying, this is the deal, guys, do you
:31:42. > :31:46.agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple. The British people voted to leave.
:31:47. > :31:52.We voted to take back control of our laws, our money, our borders. But
:31:53. > :31:57.most people don't know the shape of what the deal would be. So why not
:31:58. > :32:02.have a vote on it? Because it would be a gift to the EU negotiators to
:32:03. > :32:06.drive the worst possible deal in the hope that it might be chucked out
:32:07. > :32:11.with a second referendum. The biggest danger is the uncertainty.
:32:12. > :32:17.We have the biggest vote in British history. You have said all that. It
:32:18. > :32:24.was your side that originally proposed a second referendum. The
:32:25. > :32:28.director of Leave said, there is a strong democratic case for a
:32:29. > :32:41.referendum on what the deal looks like. Your side. Come on, you are
:32:42. > :32:45.digging up a blog from June of 2015. He said he had not come to a
:32:46. > :32:51.conclusion. He said it is a distinct possibility. No senior members of
:32:52. > :32:56.the campaign said we would have a second referendum. It is worth
:32:57. > :33:01.chucking Paddy the quote he gave on ITV news, whether it is a majority
:33:02. > :33:08.of 1% or 20%, when the British people have spoken, you do what they
:33:09. > :33:13.command. People come up to me and keep asking, when are you going to
:33:14. > :33:20.get on with it? What do you say to that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson
:33:21. > :33:29.has obviously not been paying attention. You ask me that question
:33:30. > :33:34.at the start. Owen and his kind have to stick to the same argument.
:33:35. > :33:40.During the referendum, when we said that the Europeans have it in their
:33:41. > :33:44.interest to picket tough for us, they would suffer as well. And that
:33:45. > :33:50.has proved to be right. The European Union does not wish to hand as a bad
:33:51. > :33:58.deal, because they may suffer in the process. We need the best deal for
:33:59. > :34:05.both sides. I can't understand why Owen is now reversing that argument.
:34:06. > :34:11.Here is the question I am going to ask you. If we have a second
:34:12. > :34:17.referendum on the deal and we vote by a very small amount, by a sliver,
:34:18. > :34:29.to stay in, can we then make it best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable
:34:30. > :34:34.says he thinks if you won, he would have to have a decider. You will
:34:35. > :34:43.have to put that income tax, because I don't remember when he said that.
:34:44. > :34:48.-- you have to put that in context. Independent, 19th of September. That
:34:49. > :34:52.is a decision on the outcome. The central point is that the British
:34:53. > :34:58.people voted for departure, not a destination. In response to the
:34:59. > :35:03.claim that this is undemocratic, if it is democratic to have one
:35:04. > :35:07.referendum, how can it be undemocratic to have two? Owen
:35:08. > :35:10.Paterson, the British government, on the brink of triggering article 50,
:35:11. > :35:16.cannot tell us if we will remain members of the single market, if we
:35:17. > :35:21.will remain members of the customs union. From that flows our ability
:35:22. > :35:25.to make trade deals, our attitude towards freedom of movement and the
:35:26. > :35:28.rest of it. Given that the government can't tell us, it is
:35:29. > :35:32.clear that the British people have no idea what the eventual shape will
:35:33. > :35:40.be. That is surely the fundamental case for a second referendum.
:35:41. > :35:47.Emphatically not. They have given a clear vote. That vote was to take
:35:48. > :35:51.back control. What the establishment figures like Paddy should recognise
:35:52. > :35:55.is the shattering damage it would do to the integrity of the whole
:35:56. > :36:01.political process if this was not delivered. People come up to me, as
:36:02. > :36:07.I have said for the third time now, wanting to know when we will get
:36:08. > :36:12.article 50 triggered. Both people who have voted to Remain and to
:36:13. > :36:16.Leave. If we do not deliver this, it will be disastrous for the
:36:17. > :36:21.reputation and integrity of the whole political establishment. Let
:36:22. > :36:28.me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is very Brussels elite - were ask your
:36:29. > :36:31.question but if we don't like the answer, we will keep asking the
:36:32. > :36:39.question. Did it with the Irish and French. It is... It would really
:36:40. > :36:46.anger the British people, would it not? That is an interesting
:36:47. > :36:50.question, Andrew. I don't think it would. All the evidence I see in
:36:51. > :36:53.public meetings I attended, and I think it is beginning to show in the
:36:54. > :36:56.opinion polls, although there hasn't been a proper one on this yet, I
:36:57. > :37:00.suspect there is a majority in Britain who would wish to see a
:37:01. > :37:05.second referendum on the outcome. They take the same view as I do.
:37:06. > :37:09.What began with an open democratic process cannot end with a government
:37:10. > :37:14.stitch up. Contrary to what Owen suggests, there is public support
:37:15. > :37:20.for this. And far from damaging the government and the political class,
:37:21. > :37:26.it showed that we are prepared to listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown,
:37:27. > :37:34.have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew, as you well know, I have eaten five
:37:35. > :37:38.hats. You cannot have a second referendum until you eat your hat on
:37:39. > :37:45.my programme. We will leave it there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen
:37:46. > :37:47.Paterson, thank you much. I have eaten a hat on your programme. I
:37:48. > :37:50.don't remember! It's just gone 11.35,
:37:51. > :37:52.you're watching the Sunday Politics. On today's show.
:37:53. > :38:06.in Scotland, who leave us now The Chancellor promised money
:38:07. > :38:09.for thousands of new homes this week, but is it any more
:38:10. > :38:13.than a drop in the cement mixer? We will look at schemes
:38:14. > :38:21.in the South in a building houses a lot cheaper
:38:22. > :38:24.and finding out the latest on the eco-town proposal plan
:38:25. > :38:25.for Borden in Hampshire. Molly Scott Cato is
:38:26. > :38:32.from the Green Party and an MEP in the
:38:33. > :38:33.south-west of England. And Dan Hannan is a Conservative MEP
:38:34. > :38:36.for the Well, a lot of people
:38:37. > :38:46.have a lot of names for 26 years I was working for Britain
:38:47. > :38:52.becoming independent again, I've never felt more proud
:38:53. > :38:59.than I did on the 24th of It is my wedding anniversary,
:39:00. > :39:03.but now it has a new and special But what is your take
:39:04. > :39:07.on the temperature of how Confident and optimistic
:39:08. > :39:15.that we will get a satisfactory deal with
:39:16. > :39:17.the European Union based We will all act in our own interests
:39:18. > :39:23.and we have the same one, which is We will have open, good free trade
:39:24. > :39:28.deals with the rest of the world, Australia, America and India, based
:39:29. > :39:31.on consumers rather than producer cartels and I think a decade from
:39:32. > :39:34.now, we will look back and wonder He should do the negotiations,
:39:35. > :39:42.shouldn't he? Well, considering he's been
:39:43. > :39:44.thinking about this the 26 years, I'm surprised there is more
:39:45. > :39:47.of a clear plan coming forward. And I think we are
:39:48. > :39:49.beginning to see what Brexit Britain is going
:39:50. > :39:51.to look like, actually. It is a country with high debts,
:39:52. > :39:54.low taxes, looking a bit like a tax haven, lower wages
:39:55. > :39:56.are much higher prices. Since the Conservatives came
:39:57. > :40:05.to power in 2010, the deficit has Now, there's going to be
:40:06. > :40:13.122 black holes because The uncertainty is spelt out
:40:14. > :40:20.in the Autumn Statement. It has doubled, it is
:40:21. > :40:24.getting to the point where we are likely
:40:25. > :40:28.to be like Japan. The deficit was under
:40:29. > :40:29.the But it has doubled
:40:30. > :40:35.in the Conservative Yes, because that's what happens
:40:36. > :40:40.when you have a deficit... Actually, the amount
:40:41. > :40:49.of money paid by the top 10% Let us come back to your
:40:50. > :40:54.salaries as MEPs later. In the meantime, in his
:40:55. > :40:56.Autumn Statement, the Chancellor made much of the planned investments
:40:57. > :40:59.in infrastructure, though declined to mention specifics beyond saying
:41:00. > :41:01.the south-west will be in line for ?191 million and London
:41:02. > :41:03.and the south-east for The lion's share that will probably
:41:04. > :41:16.go to the capital, I think we can Enterprise partnerships
:41:17. > :41:22.across the country have put in bids to the growth fund,
:41:23. > :41:24.but tough to wait to see exactly which ones
:41:25. > :41:25.are Joining me now is Laura
:41:26. > :41:30.Carver, the Dorset MEP. Short on detail, wasn't it,
:41:31. > :41:32.the Autumn Statement? I think the details will follow very
:41:33. > :41:34.shortly and we are looking forward
:41:35. > :41:36.to that and it is positive. There's ?191 million coming
:41:37. > :41:41.into the south-west. You have to say that,
:41:42. > :41:44.because you are still This London and the south-east
:41:45. > :41:48.figure surely is concealing the small
:41:49. > :41:50.amount of money as it it all goes to the Northern
:41:51. > :41:53.powerhouse and the Midland engine? We are in a great position that we
:41:54. > :41:57.will have some money coming into Dorset for infrastructure, housing
:41:58. > :41:59.and colleges and that is a good Skills and research and development
:42:00. > :42:03.seemed to be a bit of a That is something Dorset can
:42:04. > :42:07.do well, it isn't it? There are free colleges in Dorset,
:42:08. > :42:09.we are hoping each of those will have further
:42:10. > :42:11.funding to enhance their facilities to enable young people going there
:42:12. > :42:14.to go straight to the local There are a lot of key sectors,
:42:15. > :42:19.finance, manufacturing, we need to keep equipment
:42:20. > :42:22.up-to-date in those places and have the business input to make
:42:23. > :42:24.sure the young people Like everywhere, there
:42:25. > :42:36.is a mixed view in Dorset. What we are able to do is work
:42:37. > :42:39.with people like the Department of industry and trade, working
:42:40. > :42:42.with our growth hope to make sure businesses wants to exports or look
:42:43. > :42:44.at other Sorry, we know it's going to happen,
:42:45. > :42:56.Theresa May says it is. You should be shock
:42:57. > :42:58.proofing, shouldn't you? Isn't that what you
:42:59. > :43:01.should be doing now? If one of the big finance people
:43:02. > :43:04.move to Europe, what will we Ultimately, we are building
:43:05. > :43:08.on the strengths we We are working with businesses
:43:09. > :43:14.to help them grow their businesses and that is why we are looking at
:43:15. > :43:17.housing and skills and working with Government departments
:43:18. > :43:18.to build more resilience. There wasn't much
:43:19. > :43:21.either on devolution. Dorset is supposed
:43:22. > :43:22.to be progressing. Rural working with cities,
:43:23. > :43:32.Bournemouth high-tech along with what happens
:43:33. > :43:34.in West Dorset. But surely we should be further down
:43:35. > :43:36.the road with taking It has had a recent consultation
:43:37. > :43:43.on combine authority and unitary decisions, so actually,
:43:44. > :43:49.the progress in Dorset is so what... It doesn't seem Philip Hammond
:43:50. > :43:52.is as keen as George Osborne was on My understanding is yes,
:43:53. > :44:00.there are opportunities for the taking and Dorset is working its way
:44:01. > :44:03.through part of the process of looking at different
:44:04. > :44:08.Government structures. I mean, Cambridge and the East bid
:44:09. > :44:16.was supposed to be signed off by George Osborne
:44:17. > :44:19.and now it is not as clear Well, I can't speak about Cambridge,
:44:20. > :44:24.but Dorset is certainly progressing. The local authorities
:44:25. > :44:26.are part of the LEP, so it is working, you know,
:44:27. > :44:29.with a symbiotic relationship with local authorities that are
:44:30. > :44:31.supportive of the combine authority and the LEP is working
:44:32. > :44:33.with our partners to make sure we are in
:44:34. > :44:35.the I would like to see our
:44:36. > :44:48.counties and other cities taking on massive responsibility
:44:49. > :44:50.on health care, on welfare, social Hampshire has the same
:44:51. > :44:55.population as New New Hampshire runs its own
:44:56. > :44:59.Criminal Justice System, its own I don't believe English
:45:00. > :45:02.counties and cities are uniquely incapable
:45:03. > :45:04.of self governance. Central Government never gives these
:45:05. > :45:06.things without being The demand has to be
:45:07. > :45:10.coming from below. is being knocked back
:45:11. > :45:15.by Westminster, isn't it? Parties or always in
:45:16. > :45:20.favour of devolution when And it's a different
:45:21. > :45:24.thing when they are in I don't see any power
:45:25. > :45:33.exercised by Holyrood under the 1998 Scotland Act that cannot
:45:34. > :45:35.in England be exercised But what I see in the LEPs
:45:36. > :45:45.is there isn't a degree of political control or oversight in the way
:45:46. > :45:47.public money is being spent. I would like to see
:45:48. > :45:51.powers following the money and to see much
:45:52. > :45:54.what investment in the south-east of As you point out, George Osborne
:45:55. > :45:59.was very focused on the There wasn't enough
:46:00. > :46:02.coming to the south-west. The whole devolution plan he had
:46:03. > :46:04.was a real blog's breakfast,
:46:05. > :46:06.with the different power is going to No, it is our MPs fault for not
:46:07. > :46:12.putting pressure on. And also, maybe there
:46:13. > :46:14.should be more connections between you and me,
:46:15. > :46:18.people of the local... There has been some movement,
:46:19. > :46:20.which is unusual, in the sense we've now got in Manchester
:46:21. > :46:24.and Birmingham these super Mayors. There is one, including other health
:46:25. > :46:30.care, which is a big one. The big one I want is
:46:31. > :46:33.tax at a local level. No, no, you do want
:46:34. > :46:36.to break up the NHS. I want everything at
:46:37. > :46:43.Well, who would be man enough to buy shares in the
:46:44. > :46:48.Most people think in Britain that it is better.
:46:49. > :46:53.I mean, this is something we've been hearing since
:46:54. > :46:55.1979, the Tories are going to privatise the NHS.
:46:56. > :47:06.Well, then, what are you worried about?
:47:07. > :47:14.see social care in the NHS. It looks like the plans coming through from
:47:15. > :47:23.some hospital areas mean that there is quite a reorganisation. I'd like
:47:24. > :47:27.to see them run politically. If they are run, it should be further public
:47:28. > :47:30.good. There should be no profit motive. Health and social care
:47:31. > :47:34.should be combine and we need to move toward a system where we have
:47:35. > :47:39.local political control over how they work. They both say be more
:47:40. > :47:44.ambitious. What about health and social care at the NHS?
:47:45. > :47:49.Unaccountability, local authorities plus business input for free and
:47:50. > :47:54.voluntary boards. So you get what you would plus a bigger geography,
:47:55. > :47:58.more strategic. Dorset is currently looking at the governance. Get that
:47:59. > :48:03.right and you can deliver. Delivery is what we are all about, so Dorset
:48:04. > :48:07.LEP has been delivering the growth fund and you can see things on the
:48:08. > :48:12.ground and you can see building is changing, roads going up. We are
:48:13. > :48:16.delivering and having the right Government structures enables
:48:17. > :48:20.delivery. Ambition is part of that is, but it has to be one step at a
:48:21. > :48:26.time or you may not get the result you want. Wouldn't it be wonderful
:48:27. > :48:30.though if instead of a letter city and wanting more money from Philip
:48:31. > :48:36.Allen and, if you could raise the money and control the revenue...
:48:37. > :48:47.There are businesses, we do want the LEP raising the money. They are not
:48:48. > :48:49.the majority of the board though, it is business people who make
:48:50. > :48:54.decisions about public money spending. It is a joint decision,
:48:55. > :49:00.bringing together the best of both worlds for the best outcomes. Thank
:49:01. > :49:02.you. One area where the Chancellor was little more specific was
:49:03. > :49:08.housing, and in particular the urgent need to provide more
:49:09. > :49:11.affordable housing. The challenge of delivering the housing we so
:49:12. > :49:17.desperately need in the places where it is currently least affordable is
:49:18. > :49:22.not a new one, but the effect of unaffordable housing on our nation's
:49:23. > :49:26.productivity makes it an urgent one. He also announced over ?2 billion to
:49:27. > :49:32.help local authorities deliver 100,000 new homes and 1.4 billion on
:49:33. > :49:36.top of that for affordable housing. Will make more than a dent in the
:49:37. > :49:41.problem? It is clear the Government is willing to try a full range of
:49:42. > :49:47.solutions. If we want to build the homes this country needs, we need a
:49:48. > :49:50.mixture of new, larger settlements, new thriving villages and also
:49:51. > :49:58.redeveloping Bromfield lands in our towns and cities. One place that was
:49:59. > :50:02.supposed to combine reuse of a brown field sites with cutting-edge
:50:03. > :50:08.building technology was proposed eco-town in Borden in Hampshire.
:50:09. > :50:13.However been going? As befits a new technology development, the director
:50:14. > :50:16.of Whitehill border drives an electric car. Steve Pearce has been
:50:17. > :50:20.waiting a long time for this to happen. The employment opportunities
:50:21. > :50:24.will be fantastic. The eco-town idea will be fantastic. The eco-town idea
:50:25. > :50:28.started under Labour, to replace the old army training area. There have
:50:29. > :50:30.been delays, but now the first of been delays, but now the first of
:50:31. > :50:37.more than 3000 houses is being built. Very excited. This has been a
:50:38. > :50:41.decade in the planning and the Army first spoke about moving out of the
:50:42. > :50:45.town ten years ago and there has been a lot of consultation on what
:50:46. > :50:48.might happen and maybe some labels will change, but what we are trying
:50:49. > :50:58.to achieve is a green and healthy town and we will definitely deliver.
:50:59. > :51:01.Some of the new roads have already been built, but existing residents
:51:02. > :51:05.are worried that schools and health centres will be put under pressure
:51:06. > :51:10.by new residents. They keep putting out things that they don't feel
:51:11. > :51:22.matter to the residents that are already here. Such as they promised
:51:23. > :51:26.facilities, well, I can't see any. There have also rode back on
:51:27. > :51:29.environmental ambitions. The tree of solar panels on an old fire tower
:51:30. > :51:34.and demonstration houses may be the only ones in the new estate. These
:51:35. > :51:39.three houses are all that happened from the old eco-town proposal, but
:51:40. > :51:43.the people behind the Bordon Whitehill development say they've
:51:44. > :51:47.more likely to provide real homes more likely to provide real homes
:51:48. > :51:52.for real people. One way of getting what you really want is to build it
:51:53. > :51:57.yourself. Councillors from Cherwell are planning a self built
:51:58. > :52:02.development of 2000 houses at Ravenhill. What Ravenhill provides
:52:03. > :52:08.is land, a significant number of scale plots. Also, finances. Other
:52:09. > :52:11.people get mortgages? It is not grand designs can lead only cash in
:52:12. > :52:15.the bank, this is about building your dream home at different levels
:52:16. > :52:23.of your life and spending different amounts of money. The new reality is
:52:24. > :52:25.that off-the-shelf double glazing unconventional incher Laois and can
:52:26. > :52:30.get environmentally sound results at low gust. This one bedroom detached
:52:31. > :52:33.house has been built by the University for just ?50,000, using
:52:34. > :52:40.standard techniques. It is not particularly technically advanced,
:52:41. > :52:43.we have a problem with skill sets out the high end, so the purpose was
:52:44. > :52:49.to make it as traditional as possible, so we could use local
:52:50. > :52:53.labour that would help the local economy. Southampton council says
:52:54. > :52:57.that this is desperately needed. The beauty of this scheme is it allows
:52:58. > :53:03.you to use relatively small amounts of urban space and meet needs and is
:53:04. > :53:08.adaptable. In a Bordon, the use of ex-Army land has kept down costs to
:53:09. > :53:13.25% below local equivalents and in the end, it is the affordability of
:53:14. > :53:18.sustainable homes that matters. Molly, sustainable and the cost. All
:53:19. > :53:23.they are opposites or do you think they are opposites or do you think
:53:24. > :53:28.we can build new housing that people will welcome? That depends on
:53:29. > :53:29.Government policy. One thing I noted in the Autumn Statement was not a
:53:30. > :53:33.single mention of climate change, single mention of climate change,
:53:34. > :53:39.despite the fact we signed up to the Paris Agreement. If the Government
:53:40. > :53:46.started providing tax incentives for eco-towns over people to make it
:53:47. > :53:51.affordable to get higher levels of insulation, people would move in
:53:52. > :53:56.that direction. Don't we just need houses? Not just any old houses, the
:53:57. > :53:59.quality matters. One thing we proposed in our Autumn Statement
:54:00. > :54:03.report is we should allow local authorities to borrow money so they
:54:04. > :54:07.can build social housing which is genuinely affordable, because it
:54:08. > :54:11.would be reasonable rent. At a time of historically low interest rates,
:54:12. > :54:16.local authorities must be able to do that. They were always built to a
:54:17. > :54:20.high standard, council houses? Yes, how they are now leading the way it
:54:21. > :54:24.with ground sourced heat pumps, there are a lot of those in council
:54:25. > :54:30.housing in my constituency. We can put the politics and a longer-term
:54:31. > :54:33.perspective as well as make an affordable together. Is all that
:54:34. > :54:41.stuff slowing down a housing which would get people off waiting lists?
:54:42. > :54:45.No, there will be... I think that is more than a dent, 400,000 affordable
:54:46. > :54:57.houses by 2020, these are big numbers. All the targets have
:54:58. > :55:02.previously been missed. The Molly is right when she says what kind of
:55:03. > :55:06.houses. There is something bizarre about essential decree on houses. A
:55:07. > :55:10.bit like the soviet union said this is a mini tractors were going to
:55:11. > :55:18.have. Is always better if it is locally and organically in response
:55:19. > :55:26.to local people. It will work out way better. 2000 self built houses?
:55:27. > :55:31.I bet they will be beautiful. I bet architects will back and say why did
:55:32. > :55:35.trust people more? In the same way, we now have this mechanism being
:55:36. > :55:39.used all over the south, to have a referendum on where to put houses,
:55:40. > :55:42.where locals can come up with an alternative plan and local community
:55:43. > :55:49.step by retired architects and account is coming under the weight
:55:50. > :55:54.nothing. Well, it didn't lead to the targets being delivered. That's
:55:55. > :55:59.because we need to change planning law in a way that retains the beauty
:56:00. > :56:04.of this country. We have been lucky. Southern England has a slightly
:56:05. > :56:08.higher population density than most of the Netherlands. When you look
:56:09. > :56:13.there, we have done well. But current planning laws incentivise
:56:14. > :56:18.the building of some hideous houses and do the opposite for Brownfield
:56:19. > :56:20.land. We can make changes to make housing more affordable while
:56:21. > :56:25.preserving the natural beauty of the country. It's not what they look
:56:26. > :56:29.like that is important. People should be able to be creative and I
:56:30. > :56:33.like the self build scheme. But it's also important that as a society, we
:56:34. > :56:38.decide what is important is for all of us and the future, so we can't
:56:39. > :56:42.allow people to build willy-nilly and ignore climate change and the
:56:43. > :56:46.need to tackle carbon emissions. Philip Hammond made his money as a
:56:47. > :56:52.property developer. Willie concreted over fields? I'm not worried. I
:56:53. > :56:55.think it is an interest property developers rather than people in
:56:56. > :56:58.need houses. All wheel on the market decide that, they build expensive
:56:59. > :57:01.houses for rich people and what I would rather see is houses built for
:57:02. > :57:07.can't afford to buy them. We will can't afford to buy them. We will
:57:08. > :57:13.return to you in five years and will be houses be built? All the targets
:57:14. > :57:15.be missed again? I think there will be more houses and less pressure
:57:16. > :57:21.from migration I suspect. I suspect from migration I suspect. I suspect
:57:22. > :57:25.that has peaked, but we will still have... It is a good problem to have
:57:26. > :57:30.in a way. The basic reason why there's increasing demand for houses
:57:31. > :57:32.is because we living longer. And with the Brexit economic disaster
:57:33. > :57:40.people will be living to work elsewhere. You will achieve your
:57:41. > :57:51.migration targets. Now for 60 seconds.
:57:52. > :57:55.It has been revealed four Councillors in Oxfordshire received
:57:56. > :58:01.court summons last year after failing to pay their council tax.
:58:02. > :58:05.Including the Lord Mayor of Oxford who now was the council to do more
:58:06. > :58:08.to remind people. Work has begun on a new Reading Gateway retail and
:58:09. > :58:13.housing part, though some locals say it will not benefit them. Here's a
:58:14. > :58:17.simple and cost-effective idea to help homeless people on the Isle of
:58:18. > :58:23.White using a converted bus which can accommodate 16 people on council
:58:24. > :58:26.land in Newport. They must also do a day of voluntary work, because they
:58:27. > :58:31.are here during the day, so let us fill that space. Historic but
:58:32. > :58:35.dilapidated buildings at Bletchley Park to be converted into an A-level
:58:36. > :58:42.college specialising in studies for cyber security. Meet the robot seal
:58:43. > :58:47.that is helping out in Oxfordshire care home. Clean and less votes band
:58:48. > :58:57.aid real dog or cat. ?5,000 is quite an investment and has had a huge
:58:58. > :59:04.impact for the residents. A brave new world talking to robot seals.
:59:05. > :59:09.Isn't there an episode of The Simpsons with those seals when they
:59:10. > :59:13.come mad and attack people? Given that they predict that the Trump
:59:14. > :59:17.Presidency, that should make us afraid won kind of. You say
:59:18. > :59:23.everybody saw Trump coming at Paris, which is why everyone rushed to sign
:59:24. > :59:26.it. Ideas the reason that Obama was trying to sign it quickly and all
:59:27. > :59:30.the other countries got on board was because there was a worry if Obama
:59:31. > :59:34.did not sign up, Trump may not, and now he can't veto it for three
:59:35. > :59:38.years, though it is worrying, his ideas like climate change. Hopefully
:59:39. > :59:47.they are tied in for three years to making carbon reductions and
:59:48. > :59:52.ecologist open up... Is there a role for MEPs now? This week Nigel Farage
:59:53. > :59:59.was suggested as an ambassador, Diana James became an independent,
:00:00. > :00:02.you two are MEPs. You're looking for another job, Brexit? I will be
:00:03. > :00:09.unemployed in a couple of years so need something else. In the
:00:10. > :00:13.meantime, I must see this process through and ensure I play my part in
:00:14. > :00:19.getting the best possible deal and by that I mean terms that are
:00:20. > :00:23.advantageous to others but also to the other countries. Do you trust
:00:24. > :00:28.the Prime Minister? She's not put a foot wrong so far and she said she
:00:29. > :00:33.wants Britain to be the world leader in free trade. Any chance of a
:00:34. > :00:37.second referendum? Once we see what the deal is and if economics content
:00:38. > :00:43.to decline does reach other serious think about whether this is the best
:00:44. > :00:48.thing for the country. Wouldn't it be visited us all the people and
:00:49. > :00:53.elect another? The be all change your mind, we should listen to it.
:00:54. > :01:00.We have have got to make sure London is
:01:01. > :01:06.open. Thank you. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:07.Is Theresa May serious about curbing executive pay?
:01:08. > :01:11.Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's successor as Ukip leader?
:01:12. > :01:16.And can the Lib Dems pull off a by-election upset in Richmond?
:01:17. > :01:41.So,,, on pay talk about the executive of what executives get
:01:42. > :01:43.compared to the average worker in the company, giving shareholders
:01:44. > :01:47.real power to vote down pay rises if they don't like them, which is
:01:48. > :01:57.pretty much what Ed Miliband proposed in the general election in
:01:58. > :02:00.2015. Is she serious about this? She is very serious, and the Tory party
:02:01. > :02:04.probably does owe Ed Miliband an apology for trashing his ideas and
:02:05. > :02:08.2015 and then putting them all up for votes in November 20 16. She is
:02:09. > :02:11.very serious, and this all comes back to her desperate fear that
:02:12. > :02:18.unless capitalism reforms itself and becomes more acceptable to the just
:02:19. > :02:21.about managing or even 78% of the country who are not earning vast
:02:22. > :02:26.wealth at anywhere near the figures you see in the City, serious things
:02:27. > :02:31.will happen and the political sense of trust will implode. She has
:02:32. > :02:35.already been bartered down by her own Cabinet on this. She wanted to
:02:36. > :02:42.go further and make workers on the board mandatory. They have managed
:02:43. > :02:46.to stop that. What will her fallback position be on workers on the board
:02:47. > :02:52.if she is not able to get it into some claw? We would like to have
:02:53. > :02:57.workers on the board, but whatever they do on the board there will have
:02:58. > :03:02.no voting powers on the board. When you look at what was leaked out over
:03:03. > :03:06.the weekend, that we should know the ratio of the top to the average and
:03:07. > :03:11.that shareholders who own the company should determine, in the
:03:12. > :03:17.end, the highest-paid salaries, you kind of think, what could the
:03:18. > :03:23.possible objection be to any of that? Two things. One, I agree with
:03:24. > :03:29.Tom that she is deadly serious about this agenda and it comes under the
:03:30. > :03:32.banner, that sentence in the party conference speech about "It's time
:03:33. > :03:37.to focus on the good that government can do". She is by instinct more of
:03:38. > :03:41.an interventionist than Cameron and Osborne. But she is incredibly
:03:42. > :03:45.cautious, whether it is through the internal constraints of opposition
:03:46. > :03:52.within Cabinet, or her own small C Conservative caution in implementing
:03:53. > :03:55.this stuff. Part of the problem is the practicalities. George Osborne
:03:56. > :03:59.commission will Hutton to do a report which came out with similar
:04:00. > :04:03.proposals, which were never implemented. It is quite hard to
:04:04. > :04:09.enforce. It will antagonise business leaders when she's to woo them again
:04:10. > :04:13.in this Brexit furore. So there are problems with it. And judging by
:04:14. > :04:18.what has happened so far, my guess is that the aim will be genuinely
:04:19. > :04:21.bold and interesting, and the implementation incredibly cautious.
:04:22. > :04:28.Does it matter if she annoys some business leaders? Isn't that part of
:04:29. > :04:32.her brand? Will there be problems on the Tory backbenches with it? I
:04:33. > :04:34.think there will be and I think it does matter at this sensitive time
:04:35. > :04:40.for when we are positioning ourselves as a country and whether
:04:41. > :04:42.we are going to brand ourselves as a great city of business, implementing
:04:43. > :04:47.quite interventionist policies. Any suggestion that the government can
:04:48. > :04:51.control how much the top earners get, I think would be received in a
:04:52. > :04:54.hostile way. What would be wrong with the shareholders, who own the
:04:55. > :04:59.company, determining the pay of the higher hands, the executives?
:05:00. > :05:03.Morally, you can absolutely make that argument but to business
:05:04. > :05:08.leaders, they will not like it. Ultimately, this will not come down
:05:09. > :05:11.to more than a row of beans. There was a huge debate about whether
:05:12. > :05:17.there should be quotas of women on boards. In the end, that never
:05:18. > :05:22.happened. All we get is figures. But quotas of women, for which there is
:05:23. > :05:26.a case and a case against too, that was a government mandate. This is
:05:27. > :05:29.not, this is simply empowering shareholders who own the company to
:05:30. > :05:38.determine the pay of the people they hire. There is a strong moral
:05:39. > :05:44.argument for it. Strong economic argument. But the Tory backbenchers
:05:45. > :05:47.will not like this. The downside is that this is a world where companies
:05:48. > :05:51.are thinking about upping sticks to Europe. No, they say they are
:05:52. > :05:58.thinking of that. Not one has done it yet. Others have made massive
:05:59. > :06:04.investments in this country. But is it not an incentive for those making
:06:05. > :06:10.these threats to actually do it? In Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated
:06:11. > :06:15.by Brussels. It is a vivid way of showing you are addressing the issue
:06:16. > :06:23.of inequality. I think she will go with it, but let's move on to Ukip.
:06:24. > :06:27.I think we will get the result tomorrow. There are the top three
:06:28. > :06:33.candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans and on my right, John Reid
:06:34. > :06:39.Evans. One of them will be the next leader. Who is going to win? It is
:06:40. > :06:43.widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall and is probably the outcome that the
:06:44. > :06:46.Labour Party fears most. Paul Nuttall is a very effective
:06:47. > :06:53.communicator. He is not a household name, far from it, but people will
:06:54. > :06:57.begin to learn more about him and find that he is actually quite a
:06:58. > :07:03.strong leader. Can people Ukip together again after this shambolic
:07:04. > :07:09.period since the referendum? If anyone can, he can. And his brand of
:07:10. > :07:16.working collar, Northern Ukip is the thing that will work for them. Do
:07:17. > :07:19.you think he is the favourite? It would be amazing if he doesn't win.
:07:20. > :07:24.His greatest problem will be getting Nigel Farage off his back. He is
:07:25. > :07:31.going on a speaking tour of North America. A long speaking tour. Ukip
:07:32. > :07:35.won this EU referendum. They had the chance to hoover up these
:07:36. > :07:40.discontented Labour voters in the north, and all he has done is
:07:41. > :07:43.associated with Ukip with Farage. But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip
:07:44. > :07:49.and will be glad to be hands of it. The bigger problem is money. If it
:07:50. > :07:54.is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know the results yet, but he is the
:07:55. > :07:58.favourite, if it is him, I would suggest that that is the result
:07:59. > :08:02.Labour is frightened of most. To be honest, I think they are frightened
:08:03. > :08:08.of Ukip whatever the result. Possibly with good cause. The reason
:08:09. > :08:12.I qualify that is that what you call a shambles over the summer has been
:08:13. > :08:18.something that goes beyond Monty Python in its absurdity and madness.
:08:19. > :08:23.That calls into question whether it can function as a political party
:08:24. > :08:29.when you have what has gone on. The number of leaders itself has been an
:08:30. > :08:35.act of madness. In a context which should be fantastic for them. They
:08:36. > :08:38.have won a referendum. There is a debate about what form Brexit should
:08:39. > :08:43.take, it is a dream for them, and they have gone bonkers. If he can
:08:44. > :08:46.turn it around, I agree that he is a powerful media communicator, and
:08:47. > :08:52.then it is a threat to Labour. But he has got to show that first.
:08:53. > :08:56.Indeed. The by-election in Richmond in south-west London, called by Zac
:08:57. > :09:00.Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it turned out to be a by-election about
:09:01. > :09:06.Heathrow, or has it turned into a by-election, which is what the Lib
:09:07. > :09:10.Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems
:09:11. > :09:13.win, they will turn it into an EU referendum. It seems incredibly
:09:14. > :09:19.close now. The Lib Dems are swamping Richmond. They had 1000 activists
:09:20. > :09:23.there yesterday. That is getting on for 100th of the population of the
:09:24. > :09:27.place! If the Lib Dems don't manage to win on Thursday and don't manage
:09:28. > :09:30.to turn it into an EU referendum despite all their efforts, it will
:09:31. > :09:39.probably be a disaster for the party. What do you hear, Isabel? I
:09:40. > :09:43.hear that the Lib Dems have absolutely swamped the constituency,
:09:44. > :09:49.but this may backfire. I saw a bit of this myself, living in Witney,
:09:50. > :09:54.when the Lib Dems also swamped and people began to get fed up of their
:09:55. > :09:58.aggressive tactics. I understand that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously
:09:59. > :10:07.optimistic that he will pull this one off. Quick stab at the result? I
:10:08. > :10:12.don't know. But we are entering a period when by-elections are
:10:13. > :10:15.acquiring significant again. If the Lib Dems were to make a game, it
:10:16. > :10:22.would breathe life into that near moribund party like nothing else.
:10:23. > :10:27.Similarly, other by-elections in this shapeless political world we
:10:28. > :10:30.are in are going to become significant. We don't know if we are
:10:31. > :10:32.covering it live on Thursday night yet because we have to find at the
:10:33. > :10:39.time they are going to declare. Richmond are quite late in
:10:40. > :10:44.declaring, but if it is in the early hours, that is fine. If it is on
:10:45. > :10:48.breakfast television, they be not. I want to show you this. Michael Gove
:10:49. > :10:54.was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. In the now notorious
:10:55. > :10:57.comment that I made, I was actually cut off in midstream, as politicians
:10:58. > :11:03.often. The point I made was not that all experts are that is nonsense.
:11:04. > :11:10.Expert engineers, doctors and physicists are not wrong. But there
:11:11. > :11:12.is a subclass of experts, particularly social scientists, who
:11:13. > :11:18.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made. And the
:11:19. > :11:21.recession, which was predicted that we would have if we voted to leave,
:11:22. > :11:28.has gone like a puff of smoke. So economic experts, he talks about.
:11:29. > :11:31.The Chancellor has based all of his forward predictions in this Autumn
:11:32. > :11:38.Statement on the economic expert forecasters. The Office for Budget
:11:39. > :11:44.Responsibility has said it is 50-50, which is the toss of a coin. But
:11:45. > :11:49.what was he supposed to do? You would ideally have to have a Budget
:11:50. > :11:57.that had several sets of scenarios, and that is impossible. Crystal ball
:11:58. > :12:01.territory. But you do wonder if governments are right to do so much
:12:02. > :12:05.of their fiscal projections on the basis of forecasts which turn out to
:12:06. > :12:10.be wrong. They have nothing else to go on. The Treasury forecast is to
:12:11. > :12:15.be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast will prove not to be exact. As you
:12:16. > :12:19.say, they admitted that they are navigating through fog at the
:12:20. > :12:23.moment. But he also added that it was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit,
:12:24. > :12:30.even if you accept that these forecasts might be wrong, is causing
:12:31. > :12:36.such a level of uncertainty. He put the figure at 60 billion. That could
:12:37. > :12:44.come to haunt him. He hasn't got a clue. He admitted it. He said,
:12:45. > :12:47.Parliament mandates me to come up with something, so I am going to
:12:48. > :12:53.give you a number. But I wouldn't trust it if I were you, he basically
:12:54. > :12:56.said. I agree with you. The man who borrowed 122 billion more off the
:12:57. > :13:00.back of a coin toss was Philip Hammond. It begs the question, what
:13:01. > :13:03.does that say about the confidence Philip Hammond has in his own
:13:04. > :13:11.government's renegotiation? Not a huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond
:13:12. > :13:14.quoted the OBR figures. He basically said, this is uncertain and it looks
:13:15. > :13:21.bad, and on we go with it. It is a very interesting situation, he said.
:13:22. > :13:24.He was for Remain and he works in a department which regards it as a
:13:25. > :13:31.disaster, whatever everyone else thinks. I have just been told we are
:13:32. > :13:33.covering the by-election. We are part of the constitution.
:13:34. > :13:35.Jo Coburn will have more Daily Politics tomorrow
:13:36. > :13:39.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11.
:13:40. > :14:13.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:14. > :14:17.to signify the Africans who were here.
:14:18. > :14:43.The story of Henry VIII and his six wives
:14:44. > :14:52.and into the private lives of Henry's six wives.