29/01/2017

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:01:09. > :01:13.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:14. > :01:15.mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:16. > :01:18.The NHS sustainability transformation plans.

:01:19. > :01:21.Are they really about fine tuning NHS services or,

:01:22. > :01:27.Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:28. > :01:30.We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:31. > :01:32.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:33. > :01:35.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:36. > :01:38.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:39. > :01:39.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:40. > :01:41.And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:42. > :01:43.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:44. > :01:46.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:47. > :01:49.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:50. > :01:51.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:52. > :01:57.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:58. > :02:01.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:02:02. > :02:05.where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:06. > :02:08.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:09. > :02:13.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:14. > :02:17.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:18. > :02:25.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:26. > :02:28.as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:29. > :02:32.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:33. > :02:38.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:39. > :02:42.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:43. > :02:45.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:46. > :02:51.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:52. > :02:54.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:55. > :02:56.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:57. > :03:11.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:03:12. > :03:14.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:15. > :03:16.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:17. > :03:22.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:23. > :03:26.She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:27. > :03:31.to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:32. > :03:34.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:35. > :03:37.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:38. > :03:41.understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:42. > :03:43.I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:44. > :03:47.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:48. > :03:49.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:50. > :03:53.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:54. > :04:05.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:04:06. > :04:13.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:14. > :04:17.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:18. > :04:21.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:22. > :04:28.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:29. > :04:32.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:33. > :04:39.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:40. > :04:42.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:43. > :04:47.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:48. > :04:53.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:54. > :04:55.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:56. > :04:58.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:59. > :05:03.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:05:04. > :05:07.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:08. > :05:11.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:12. > :05:15.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:16. > :05:20.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:21. > :05:24.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:25. > :05:32.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:33. > :05:35.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:36. > :05:38.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:39. > :05:42.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:43. > :05:45.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:46. > :05:47.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:48. > :05:52.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:53. > :05:56.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:57. > :06:00.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:06:01. > :06:06.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:07. > :06:11.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:12. > :06:15.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:16. > :06:21.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:22. > :06:25.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:26. > :06:29.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:30. > :06:33.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:34. > :06:38.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:39. > :06:43.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:44. > :06:47.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:48. > :07:01.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:07:02. > :07:06.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:07. > :07:10.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:11. > :07:13.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:14. > :07:18.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:19. > :07:20.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:21. > :07:25.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:26. > :07:31.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:32. > :07:34.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:35. > :07:39.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:40. > :07:42.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:43. > :07:48.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:49. > :07:51.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:52. > :07:56.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:57. > :08:00.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:08:01. > :08:03.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:04. > :08:09.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:10. > :08:12.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:13. > :08:17.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:18. > :08:22.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:23. > :08:26.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:27. > :08:29.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:30. > :08:32.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:33. > :08:38.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:39. > :08:41.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:42. > :08:52.right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:53. > :08:58.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:59. > :09:02.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:09:03. > :09:07.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:08. > :09:12.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:13. > :09:17.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:18. > :09:22.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:23. > :09:27.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:28. > :09:36.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:37. > :09:40.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:41. > :09:44.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:45. > :09:48.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:49. > :09:51.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:52. > :09:56.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:57. > :10:01.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:10:02. > :10:04.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:05. > :10:10.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:11. > :10:14.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:15. > :10:18.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:19. > :10:24.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:25. > :10:27.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:28. > :10:32.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:33. > :10:38.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:39. > :10:41.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:42. > :10:47.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:48. > :10:51.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:52. > :10:57.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:58. > :11:01.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:11:02. > :11:04.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:05. > :11:12.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:13. > :11:17.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:18. > :11:21.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:22. > :11:25.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:26. > :11:28.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:29. > :11:38.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:39. > :11:43.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:44. > :11:48.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:49. > :11:53.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:54. > :11:57.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:58. > :12:03.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:12:04. > :12:09.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:10. > :12:13.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:14. > :12:19.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:20. > :12:22.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:23. > :12:28.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:29. > :12:33.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:34. > :12:37.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:38. > :12:40.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:41. > :12:45.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:46. > :12:49.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:50. > :12:54.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:55. > :12:58.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:59. > :13:03.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:13:04. > :13:05.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:06. > :13:10.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:11. > :13:14.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:15. > :13:18.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:19. > :13:22.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:23. > :13:26.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:27. > :13:31.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:32. > :13:34.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:35. > :13:38.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:39. > :13:44.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:45. > :13:46.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:47. > :13:50.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:51. > :13:53.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:54. > :13:55.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:56. > :13:58.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:59. > :14:00.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:14:01. > :14:02.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:03. > :14:04.but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:05. > :14:07.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:08. > :14:11.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:12. > :14:14.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:15. > :14:22.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:23. > :14:26.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:27. > :14:29.increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:30. > :14:35.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:36. > :14:36.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:37. > :14:42.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:43. > :14:46.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:47. > :14:49.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:50. > :14:52.to Donald Trump her continued

:14:53. > :14:57.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:58. > :15:00.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:15:01. > :15:02.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:03. > :15:06.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:07. > :15:22.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:23. > :15:26.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:27. > :15:30.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:31. > :15:35.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:36. > :15:39.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:40. > :15:47.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:48. > :15:52.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:53. > :15:58.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:59. > :16:02.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:16:03. > :16:08.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:09. > :16:12.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:13. > :16:17.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:18. > :16:22.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:23. > :16:25.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:26. > :16:30.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:31. > :16:35.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:36. > :16:39.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:40. > :16:44.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:45. > :16:48.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:49. > :16:54.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:55. > :17:02.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:17:03. > :17:06.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:07. > :17:11.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:12. > :17:16.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:17. > :17:19.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:20. > :17:29.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:30. > :17:33.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:34. > :17:38.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:39. > :17:43.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:44. > :17:46.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:47. > :17:50.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:51. > :17:56.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:57. > :17:59.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:18:00. > :18:04.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:05. > :18:09.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:10. > :18:13.America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:14. > :18:23.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:24. > :18:31.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:32. > :18:35.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:36. > :18:38.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:39. > :18:44.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:45. > :18:47.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:48. > :18:54.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:55. > :18:59.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:19:00. > :19:03.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:04. > :19:06.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:07. > :19:13.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:14. > :19:16.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:17. > :19:20.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:21. > :19:23.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:24. > :19:27.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:28. > :19:33.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:34. > :19:39.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:40. > :19:44.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:45. > :19:48.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:49. > :19:53.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:54. > :19:57.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:58. > :20:04.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:20:05. > :20:10.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:11. > :20:16.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:17. > :20:20.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:21. > :20:24.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:25. > :20:29.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:30. > :20:33.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:34. > :20:36.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:37. > :20:40.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:41. > :20:46.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:47. > :20:51.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:52. > :20:56.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:57. > :21:00.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:21:01. > :21:05.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:06. > :21:10.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:11. > :21:15.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:16. > :21:18.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:19. > :21:22.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:23. > :21:26.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:27. > :21:31.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:32. > :21:36.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:37. > :21:41.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:42. > :21:45.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:46. > :21:53.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:54. > :21:56.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:57. > :22:01.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:22:02. > :22:04.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:05. > :22:09.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:10. > :22:12.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:13. > :22:19.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:20. > :22:23.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:24. > :22:27.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:28. > :22:31.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:32. > :22:36.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:37. > :22:39.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:40. > :22:46.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:47. > :22:50.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:51. > :22:54.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:55. > :23:00.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:23:01. > :23:04.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:05. > :23:09.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:10. > :23:14.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:15. > :23:18.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:19. > :23:22.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:23. > :23:26.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:27. > :23:31.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:32. > :23:35.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:36. > :23:39.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:40. > :23:43.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:44. > :23:48.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:49. > :23:52.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:53. > :23:58.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:59. > :24:02.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:24:03. > :24:07.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:08. > :24:11.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:12. > :24:15.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:16. > :24:18.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:19. > :24:24.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:25. > :24:29.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:30. > :24:33.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:34. > :24:38.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:39. > :24:42.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:43. > :24:48.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:49. > :24:57.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:58. > :25:01.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:25:02. > :25:05.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:06. > :25:12.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:13. > :25:17.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:18. > :25:21.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:22. > :25:23.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:24. > :25:25.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:26. > :25:27.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:28. > :25:30.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:31. > :25:40.be talking to our political panel. On today's show, all

:25:41. > :25:44.about the future of NHS STPs, or sustainability

:25:45. > :25:50.and transformation plans. But are they just

:25:51. > :25:53.an excuse for cuts? But first let's make the two

:25:54. > :25:59.politicians who will be here Laetisia Carter is the deputy leader

:26:00. > :26:04.of the Labour group on West Oxfordshire council.

:26:05. > :26:07.Welcome. And Dr Philip Lee

:26:08. > :26:09.is the Conservative MP for Bracknell.

:26:10. > :26:12.Welcome, both. We've seen talk

:26:13. > :26:14.about devolution this week, and recently we've seen plans

:26:15. > :26:16.to create one Oxfordshire, and myriad different combinations

:26:17. > :26:21.of Hampshire, but nothing seems to be

:26:22. > :26:23.going forward and we need to work together as much

:26:24. > :26:36.as possible. And bigger is more efficient?

:26:37. > :26:39.Hopefully. I think, like many members

:26:40. > :26:41.of the public, I want to bang people's heads

:26:42. > :26:48.together and I want to be in a position

:26:49. > :26:51.to be negtionating the changes to make sure

:26:52. > :26:53.that we do save money. Yes, I think it could be useful,

:26:54. > :26:56.especially in this climate. It's saying from central

:26:57. > :26:58.government to local councils, sort yourselves out,

:26:59. > :27:00.work out which buildings you need, be more efficient,

:27:01. > :27:02.but it doesn't seem to be people aren't coming forward

:27:03. > :27:06.with ideas that work? Well, in Berkshire, we've

:27:07. > :27:08.had unitary authorities for the best

:27:09. > :27:09.part of 20 years and so we're used

:27:10. > :27:12.to trying to get the services right I'm not able to comment

:27:13. > :27:17.on other counties but all I would say is that

:27:18. > :27:20.I think the appropriate thing to do with regards

:27:21. > :27:22.to devolution is that the services that the people

:27:23. > :27:24.need sit at the right level in terms of local government,

:27:25. > :27:27.and I'm sure the councils in each respective council

:27:28. > :27:29.will bear that in mind. Some people talk that it's

:27:30. > :27:36.about being central element being government devolving

:27:37. > :27:38.the blame to local Does that not seem to be chasing

:27:39. > :27:42.after a shortage of money? That is part of the

:27:43. > :27:44.problem, and you are

:27:45. > :27:46.setting people up to fail. For example, social care budgets,

:27:47. > :27:48.I mean, they were devolved to councils at the same time

:27:49. > :27:50.they took away the moneys, so therefore,

:27:51. > :27:52.of course, you know, the Conservative Surrey leader came

:27:53. > :27:55.out this week, I believe... And wanted a 15%, or a referendum,

:27:56. > :27:57.and I actually spoke to the Chancellor when

:27:58. > :28:03.he was in Reading. He's a Surrey resident,

:28:04. > :28:05.he woudln't say if he's voting in this referendum,

:28:06. > :28:08.Alan Keyes just hoping that it won't But it's a serious situation

:28:09. > :28:11.when you've got Conservative councils saying we can't cope

:28:12. > :28:13.with that 15% increase. Social care is a challenge

:28:14. > :28:15.for our political generation, I think

:28:16. > :28:16.everybody realises that. But why hand it to local

:28:17. > :28:19.councils to sort out? sense, I think this

:28:20. > :28:23.is an opportunity I wouldn't see devolving

:28:24. > :28:25.this in a negative sense, I think this

:28:26. > :28:26.is an opportunity for local councils

:28:27. > :28:28.to bring forward innovative ways of delivering social care and indeed

:28:29. > :28:31.other services in their community? How innovative can you be, Philip,

:28:32. > :28:34.when you do not have the money? If you don't have

:28:35. > :28:36.the money how can you Well, mergers is what's

:28:37. > :28:39.being suggested. It is but next week we see the end

:28:40. > :28:42.of our family Centre in Chipping Norton

:28:43. > :28:43.where I represent. You know, it's not

:28:44. > :28:46.going to save money. Social services, the health care

:28:47. > :28:49.are under so much pressure and Before people get into crisis

:28:50. > :28:52.it's being wiped out. I just think that local council

:28:53. > :28:56.areas are best placed to be able to work out what their demands

:28:57. > :28:59.are, now, and what their demands will be in the future and therefore

:29:00. > :29:02.through this sort of consultation which they often had

:29:03. > :29:04.with communities, as they arrive at services that people

:29:05. > :29:06.are happening with. If they have the resources.

:29:07. > :29:12.If they have the resources. That's the one of the specifics

:29:13. > :29:14.that we're talking about coming here, it's the major shake-up

:29:15. > :29:17.of our health service, the one STPs, sustainability

:29:18. > :29:19.and transformation plans, drawn up by 44 regions

:29:20. > :29:21.across the country and health bosses say these proposals

:29:22. > :29:25.will map out a path to help the NHS Critics say the plans

:29:26. > :29:28.have been shrouded in mystery. Our Hampshire and Isle of Wight

:29:29. > :29:31.political reporter Jess Parker What we are faced with is

:29:32. > :29:43.a collapse, and we're It's not so much

:29:44. > :29:46.treating the patients, 267 operations have

:29:47. > :29:52.been postponed at I work in A, and that

:29:53. > :29:57.is where they then come, and we are under

:29:58. > :29:59.great stress as well. It's no secret that our health

:30:00. > :30:07.service is under pressure. Probably not, but it

:30:08. > :30:13.stands for sustainability Regional health bosses

:30:14. > :30:19.across the country have been asked to draw them up to look at

:30:20. > :30:24.savings but also how services cope Now, the STP for Hampshire

:30:25. > :30:27.and the Isle of Wight Lots of the detail isn't clear yet

:30:28. > :30:35.but proposals across the patch include cutting requirement for up

:30:36. > :30:37.to 300 hospital beds, centralising some specialist services, selling

:30:38. > :30:40.off nearly a fifth of NHS buildings and focusing on community

:30:41. > :30:42.and preventative care so that So that's this area

:30:43. > :30:54.but what about others Oxfordshire's health

:30:55. > :30:59.bosses have repeatedly delayed releasing plans for how

:31:00. > :31:01.they'll save ?200 million from the county's NHS budget but we are now

:31:02. > :31:08.starting to get details. Some proposals mean

:31:09. > :31:11.moving services away from Banbury Horton Hospital to hear

:31:12. > :31:15.at the John Radcliffe in Oxford, something that will be

:31:16. > :31:18.very controversial. There are also claims that the plan

:31:19. > :31:21.will mean closing all of Oxfordshire's community

:31:22. > :31:23.hospitals replacing them with four hubs,

:31:24. > :31:24.but those behind health plans

:31:25. > :31:27.say options for those services are still being

:31:28. > :31:31.worked on. The brunt of the cuts

:31:32. > :31:34.in the Royal County Here in the west

:31:35. > :31:39.surgeries will need to save nearly ?60 million by 2021,

:31:40. > :31:41.while the Royal Berkshire Hospital will be expected to save

:31:42. > :31:47.a further ?45 million. In the east, Wexham Park

:31:48. > :31:50.and Heatherwoods hospitals are expanding, so it's going to be

:31:51. > :31:54.tough for GPs there too. The emphasis here in

:31:55. > :31:56.Berkshire is very much on encouraging people to do much more

:31:57. > :32:02.to look after themselves. In Dorset part of the

:32:03. > :32:08.reorganisation includes centralising and the provision here

:32:09. > :32:10.in Poole, with many people having further to travel and some GPs

:32:11. > :32:16.warning that lives could be at risk. There is also a blueprint to create

:32:17. > :32:20.new purpose-built medical centres or hubs with dozens of doctors

:32:21. > :32:23.treating thousands of patients, but with

:32:24. > :32:25.the decimation of the rural

:32:26. > :32:27.bus network, in many smaller villages there

:32:28. > :32:33.is a real concern that anyone dependent on the buses

:32:34. > :32:36.would not be able to get to And some doctors fear people

:32:37. > :32:40.are blind to the path This idea of consolidation

:32:41. > :32:43.to save money. A lot of patients aren't

:32:44. > :32:47.going to like that because it does mean

:32:48. > :32:48.that their local hospital,

:32:49. > :32:51.their local maternity units would be there

:32:52. > :32:53.when they need it and they will need

:32:54. > :32:56.to travel a lot further. Dr Helen Salisbury

:32:57. > :33:03.stood in last year's Whitney by-election for the National

:33:04. > :33:05.Health Action Party. There is a massive

:33:06. > :33:08.democratic deficit here. If somebody came out

:33:09. > :33:10.and said this is What I would like to do

:33:11. > :33:14.is completely change the way the NHS is run

:33:15. > :33:17.and organised and how many hospitals we have,

:33:18. > :33:21.vote for me! Do you know, I don't

:33:22. > :33:24.think they would have But health leaders like Julia Ross

:33:25. > :33:29.are giving the STP She says for Surrey Hartlands

:33:30. > :33:33.they aren't planning to close services but make them more

:33:34. > :33:35.efficient to help a changing Wouldn't you prefer it if rather

:33:36. > :33:44.than having to make the savings that the government

:33:45. > :33:47.would just give you more money? Well, of course I would,

:33:48. > :33:49.in an ideal world, but we're not in an ideal

:33:50. > :33:52.world and we have to live within the envelope

:33:53. > :33:54.that is available to us. People, the public,

:33:55. > :33:56.they don't even know what a STP is and this is a pretty big

:33:57. > :33:59.transformation of our health I don't think the public needs

:34:00. > :34:02.to know what a STP is. What we do really do

:34:03. > :34:05.need though is for local people to get involved and be

:34:06. > :34:08.interested in thinking and talking with us about how we can best

:34:09. > :34:12.redesign health care services to be Well, the STPs across the south

:34:13. > :34:22.look at saving over and add that up any way you like,

:34:23. > :34:30.we're not talking small change. the long-term solution

:34:31. > :34:35.or are they a bit of a short-term gap because we have

:34:36. > :34:37.run out of money? The challenge that we all face,

:34:38. > :34:47.whichever political party who The challenge that we all face,

:34:48. > :34:50.whichever political party we represent all support, is that

:34:51. > :34:52.long-term trends are to increase demand, that care it self

:34:53. > :34:55.is changing, 80% of the NHS expenditure is on chronic care,

:34:56. > :34:57.and that where that care should take is also

:34:58. > :35:00.changing, and so therefore the structural changes

:35:01. > :35:04.required which having just watched your video

:35:05. > :35:05.is affecting the entire region should

:35:06. > :35:07.not necessarily be seen through the prism of cost

:35:08. > :35:11.saving, just the prism of actually the health care

:35:12. > :35:14.being changed and it is better that the patients get treated

:35:15. > :35:16.for their chronic ailments closer to home.

:35:17. > :35:19.People get that, but this does seem to be going on behind-the-scenes,

:35:20. > :35:24.and what mandate is there, as they were asking that?

:35:25. > :35:26.This is reorganisation on a big scale.

:35:27. > :35:28.First of all I would challenge the idea that

:35:29. > :35:32.they do get it because as you well know in the previous parliament and

:35:33. > :35:34.indeed prior to the 2010 election, I produced

:35:35. > :35:35.and discussed a plan for the transformation

:35:36. > :35:37.of hospital care in my area.

:35:38. > :35:41.And at the time it was deemed controversial, this and that,

:35:42. > :35:45.People fight against change, any change?

:35:46. > :35:48.Well, what they first heard, and unfortunately the NHS action

:35:49. > :35:57.party is on Tories were jumping on this,

:35:58. > :36:02.they hear hospital closure and think bad.

:36:03. > :36:05.When I actually went to the presence of talking and I had

:36:06. > :36:07.six meetings around the region, people understood that what I was

:36:08. > :36:10.actually saying is that I was changing where the care should be

:36:11. > :36:12.delivered, so you would have more community facilities delivering safe

:36:13. > :36:15.outpatient appointments to see specialists, but then you would

:36:16. > :36:17.travel further to the hub hospital for acute and surgical care.

:36:18. > :36:19.They understood this and became more supportive of it.

:36:20. > :36:24.I actually think it doesn't just need an explanation, it need

:36:25. > :36:27.cross-party support because this I think is what is in the best

:36:28. > :36:32.If you were in government, Labour would need to do

:36:33. > :36:33.some sort of transformation like this.

:36:34. > :36:38.They would not need to cut which is what this is 22 billion

:36:39. > :36:41.This is about where your priorities are and as far

:36:42. > :36:44.as I am concerned I'm sure the great British public,

:36:45. > :36:50.These are dangerous and these are irresponsible cuts.

:36:51. > :36:54.Losing the A in the Horton, losing our

:36:55. > :36:56.maternity hospital in Chipping Norton, it's not an option.

:36:57. > :36:59.Deer Park surgery is chatting with a patient list of four and a half

:37:00. > :37:05.You can't defend every closure if in the longer run

:37:06. > :37:08.But it's not, they're calling it care closer to home.

:37:09. > :37:11.How is moving A at Banbury closer to home, when you

:37:12. > :37:15.Oxford JR can not absorb this number of patients,

:37:16. > :37:22.Hypothetically, you have a car accident can we don't go to Horton,

:37:23. > :37:26.The reason is is because John Radcliffe is a trauma centre.

:37:27. > :37:28.Horton Hospital is most certainly not a trauma centre.

:37:29. > :37:30.What is your definition of a A department?

:37:31. > :37:32.Does it deliver a 24 hour cardiac service?

:37:33. > :37:34.Does it deliver a 24-hour stroke unit?

:37:35. > :37:38.Philip, I could also give you a really good example.

:37:39. > :37:40.It is not responsible of politicians...

:37:41. > :37:41.A woman in labour in Chipping Norton...

:37:42. > :37:46.A woman in labour in Chipping Norton, she goes to the

:37:47. > :37:54.maternity hospital, she is transferred to Banbury, and this

:37:55. > :37:56.sees complications, there is not the staff there.

:37:57. > :38:03.It is to do with the quality of obstetric care.

:38:04. > :38:08.The Horton was supposed to have obstetric care and

:38:09. > :38:10.it hasn't got it, it's just got nurses, hasn't it?

:38:11. > :38:13.The point I'm trying to make, Peter, is

:38:14. > :38:16.that if it was simply about finance this would be actually easier.

:38:17. > :38:18.If you want to provide a decent obstetric service

:38:19. > :38:19.service in a hospital, you

:38:20. > :38:22.need to be able to justifiably employ so many obstetricians on a

:38:23. > :38:24.rota. It is not possible to justify that

:38:25. > :38:27.at the Horton Hospital, it is only possible to justify

:38:28. > :38:29.that in certain numbers of hospitals

:38:30. > :38:30.in the That woman in labour

:38:31. > :38:33.with pre-eclampsia... If the ambulance even turns up

:38:34. > :38:35.within an hour, it's The answer isn't just

:38:36. > :38:38.more money, is it? I think the NHS needs

:38:39. > :38:41.to be invested in. Of course there's more pressures

:38:42. > :38:43.on it, therefore you must invest in it, you cannot cut a vital

:38:44. > :38:46.service like the NHS. We've got the political

:38:47. > :38:49.political answer to this is to take party politics out of it,

:38:50. > :38:53.to have a cross-party approach to the provision of hospital

:38:54. > :38:55.care across the country. Now, our regular round-up

:38:56. > :39:00.of the political week in Ministers got out of

:39:01. > :39:09.London in force this week to promote the new

:39:10. > :39:12.industrial strategy. In Reading, the Chancellor met

:39:13. > :39:16.apprentices at Microsoft. In Portsmouth, meanwhile, floods

:39:17. > :39:26.Minister to raise copy was doing her --Therese Coffey doing

:39:27. > :39:27.a queen Knute impression, confirming it was going

:39:28. > :39:33.to cost ?150 million The message

:39:34. > :39:35.from trade secretary Liam Fox at Banbury motorsport company pro

:39:36. > :39:40.drive was go Cut funding for family centre

:39:41. > :39:47.in Oxford led to protests. Donington doorstep have

:39:48. > :39:49.cut sessions from six The Solent devolution deal is dead

:39:50. > :39:52.in the water, killed by infighting and disagreement

:39:53. > :39:54.according to Portsmouth's Donna We're losing out because we haven't

:39:55. > :39:57.got our act together. Finally, our Oxfordshire MP wants

:39:58. > :40:00.a get out of jail free Early release because she says

:40:01. > :40:05.they have low reoffending That's the Sunday politics

:40:06. > :40:13.in the south for this week. Thank you to my guests,

:40:14. > :40:16.Laetisia Carter from Oxfordshire, Doctor Philip

:40:17. > :40:18.Lee from Berkshire. Don't forget, you can

:40:19. > :40:20.keep up with the Sunday There's the address at the bottom

:40:21. > :40:26.of the screen, featuring a certain Dr Julian Lewis

:40:27. > :40:28.from the new Forest, at the moment, but for now,

:40:29. > :40:33.back to Andrew. air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:34. > :40:39.here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:40. > :40:44.to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:45. > :40:49.mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:50. > :40:52.Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:53. > :41:05.should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:41:06. > :41:11.for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:12. > :41:14.challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:15. > :41:19.come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:20. > :41:23.Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:24. > :41:28.term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:29. > :41:35.to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:36. > :41:38.anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:39. > :41:42.territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:43. > :41:47.summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:48. > :41:51.coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:52. > :41:56.from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:57. > :42:02.Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:42:03. > :42:05.mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:06. > :42:09.that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:10. > :42:15.it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:16. > :42:19.civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:20. > :42:29.Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:30. > :42:31.hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:32. > :42:38.although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:39. > :42:41.discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:42. > :42:45.man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:46. > :42:50.backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:51. > :42:54.with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:55. > :42:58.and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:59. > :43:03.ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:43:04. > :43:09.opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:10. > :43:13.streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:14. > :43:17.international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:18. > :43:20.are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:21. > :43:24.suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:25. > :43:30.have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:31. > :43:35.Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:36. > :43:42.would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:43. > :43:46.subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:47. > :43:51.front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:52. > :43:54.Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:55. > :43:57.host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:58. > :44:03.have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:44:04. > :44:08.serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:09. > :44:15.are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:16. > :44:18.won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:19. > :44:21.in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:22. > :44:27.opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:28. > :44:36.Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:37. > :44:40.because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:41. > :44:44.the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:45. > :44:49.currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:50. > :44:53.leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:54. > :44:57.dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:58. > :45:02.Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:45:03. > :45:06.but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:07. > :45:12.danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:13. > :45:16.conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:17. > :45:20.are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:21. > :45:25.vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:26. > :45:29.have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:30. > :45:35.of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:36. > :45:39.world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:40. > :45:43.worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:44. > :45:48.legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:49. > :45:53.big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:54. > :45:56.is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:57. > :46:02.hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:46:03. > :46:06.incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:07. > :46:10.politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:11. > :46:14.already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:15. > :46:19.have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:20. > :46:24.stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:25. > :46:29.and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:30. > :46:32.have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:33. > :46:36.it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:37. > :46:40.be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:41. > :46:46.regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:47. > :46:52.citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:53. > :46:58.through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:59. > :47:04.know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:47:05. > :47:07.won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:08. > :47:11.those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:12. > :47:17.the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:18. > :47:21.already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:22. > :47:25.governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:26. > :47:29.for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:30. > :47:33.through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:34. > :47:38.through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:39. > :47:43.been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:44. > :47:49.will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:50. > :47:55.the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:56. > :47:59.see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:48:00. > :48:04.unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:48:05. > :48:12.when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:13. > :48:19.Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:20. > :48:25.or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:26. > :48:26.But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:27. > :48:29.week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:30. > :48:32.tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:33. > :48:35.on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:36. > :49:09.it's the Sunday Politics. a free five-a-side tournament

:49:10. > :49:23.that's for everyone. For more information,

:49:24. > :49:27.go to the Get Inspired website.