:00:39. > :00:42.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:43. > :00:45.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:46. > :00:54.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:55. > :00:57.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:58. > :01:03.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:04. > :01:08.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:09. > :01:11.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:12. > :01:14.In the South: Reorganising local government in Dorset -
:01:15. > :01:19.six of the councils are in favour of the plans but three are opposed,
:01:20. > :01:34.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:35. > :01:39.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:40. > :01:45.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:46. > :01:48.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:49. > :01:54.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:55. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:02. > :02:04.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:05. > :02:21.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:22. > :02:25.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:26. > :02:29.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:30. > :02:33.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:34. > :02:35.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:36. > :02:38.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:39. > :02:49.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:50. > :02:54.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:55. > :02:58.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:02:59. > :03:02.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:03. > :03:08.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:09. > :03:14.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:15. > :03:23.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:24. > :03:29.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:30. > :03:32.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:33. > :03:37.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:38. > :03:44.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:45. > :03:46.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:47. > :03:51.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:52. > :03:57.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:58. > :04:01.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:02. > :04:05.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:06. > :04:13.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:14. > :04:19.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:20. > :04:23.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:24. > :04:33.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:34. > :04:38.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:39. > :04:42.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:43. > :04:47.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:48. > :04:52.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:53. > :04:56.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:57. > :05:02.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:03. > :05:07.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:08. > :05:10.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:11. > :05:17.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:18. > :05:21.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:22. > :05:25.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:26. > :05:28.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:29. > :05:32.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:33. > :05:39.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:40. > :05:46.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:47. > :05:49.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:50. > :05:54.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:55. > :05:59.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:00. > :06:06.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:07. > :06:12.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:13. > :06:20.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:21. > :06:24.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:25. > :06:27.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:28. > :06:31.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:32. > :06:36.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:37. > :06:41.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:42. > :06:46.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:47. > :06:49.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:50. > :06:53.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:54. > :06:55.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:56. > :06:59.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:00. > :07:00.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:01. > :07:04.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:05. > :07:06.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:07. > :07:11.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:12. > :07:13.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:14. > :07:16.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:17. > :07:21.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:22. > :07:29.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:30. > :07:31.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:32. > :07:40.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:41. > :07:42.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:43. > :07:45.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:46. > :07:48.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:49. > :08:04.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:05. > :08:06.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:07. > :08:09.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:10. > :08:11.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:12. > :08:13.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:14. > :08:15.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:16. > :08:18.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:19. > :08:20.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:21. > :08:22.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:23. > :08:25.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:26. > :08:38.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:39. > :08:41.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:42. > :08:43.He's got a book out next month called
:08:44. > :08:45.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:46. > :08:54.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:55. > :08:57.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:08:58. > :09:03.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:04. > :09:07.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:08. > :09:11.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:12. > :09:15.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:16. > :09:18.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:19. > :09:23.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:24. > :09:29.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:30. > :09:34.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:35. > :09:38.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:39. > :09:43.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:44. > :09:47.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:48. > :09:52.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:53. > :09:59.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:00. > :10:03.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:04. > :10:07.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:08. > :10:11.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:12. > :10:16.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:17. > :10:20.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:21. > :10:25.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:26. > :10:28.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:29. > :10:33.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:34. > :10:39.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:40. > :10:43.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:44. > :10:46.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:47. > :10:52.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:53. > :10:56.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:57. > :10:59.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:00. > :11:04.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:05. > :11:07.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:08. > :11:11.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:12. > :11:18.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:19. > :11:22.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:23. > :11:27.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:28. > :11:31.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:32. > :11:36.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:37. > :11:39.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:40. > :11:46.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:47. > :11:49.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:50. > :11:54.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:55. > :12:00.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:01. > :12:03.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:04. > :12:09.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:10. > :12:13.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:14. > :12:19.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:20. > :12:25.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:26. > :12:29.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:30. > :12:33.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:34. > :12:39.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:40. > :12:43.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:44. > :12:48.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:49. > :12:52.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:53. > :12:57.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:58. > :12:59.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:00. > :13:02.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:03. > :13:05.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:06. > :13:07.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:08. > :13:10.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:11. > :13:12.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:13. > :13:14.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:15. > :13:16.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:17. > :13:18.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:19. > :13:26.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:27. > :13:29.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:30. > :13:33.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:34. > :13:35.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:36. > :13:45.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:46. > :13:58.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:13:59. > :14:02.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:03. > :14:07.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:08. > :14:11.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:12. > :14:16.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:17. > :14:24.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:25. > :14:27.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:28. > :14:31.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:32. > :14:37.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:38. > :14:41.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:42. > :14:46.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:47. > :14:49.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:50. > :14:54.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:55. > :15:00.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:01. > :15:04.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:05. > :15:13.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:14. > :15:17.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:18. > :15:22.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:23. > :15:26.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:27. > :15:31.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:32. > :15:35.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:36. > :15:41.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:42. > :15:46.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:47. > :15:50.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:51. > :15:55.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:56. > :15:59.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:00. > :16:02.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:03. > :16:07.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:08. > :16:11.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:12. > :16:22.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:23. > :16:28.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:29. > :16:34.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:35. > :16:41.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:42. > :16:46.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:47. > :16:49.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:50. > :16:55.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:56. > :16:58.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:16:59. > :17:02.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:03. > :17:06.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:07. > :17:14.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:15. > :17:19.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:20. > :17:28.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:29. > :17:31.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:32. > :17:36.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:37. > :17:41.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:42. > :17:45.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:46. > :17:50.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:51. > :17:55.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:56. > :17:58.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:17:59. > :18:03.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:04. > :18:07.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:08. > :18:12.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:13. > :18:17.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:18. > :18:21.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:22. > :18:27.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:28. > :18:29.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:30. > :18:33.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:34. > :18:40.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:41. > :18:45.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:46. > :18:50.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:51. > :18:53.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:54. > :18:58.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:18:59. > :19:02.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:03. > :19:08.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:09. > :19:13.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:14. > :19:17.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:18. > :19:21.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:22. > :19:26.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:27. > :19:33.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:34. > :19:37.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:38. > :19:42.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:43. > :19:46.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:47. > :19:51.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:52. > :19:56.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:57. > :20:00.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:01. > :20:04.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:05. > :20:10.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:11. > :20:15.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:16. > :20:18.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:19. > :20:24.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:25. > :20:31.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:32. > :20:35.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:36. > :20:40.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:41. > :20:45.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:46. > :20:48.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:49. > :20:52.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:53. > :20:55.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:56. > :20:59.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:00. > :21:02.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:03. > :21:07.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:08. > :21:13.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:14. > :21:18.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:19. > :21:23.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:24. > :21:27.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:28. > :21:33.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:34. > :21:39.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:40. > :21:43.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:44. > :21:47.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:48. > :21:50.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:51. > :21:54.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:55. > :22:00.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:01. > :22:05.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:06. > :22:08.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:09. > :22:15.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:16. > :22:19.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:20. > :22:22.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:23. > :22:26.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:27. > :22:29.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:30. > :22:33.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:34. > :22:37.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:38. > :22:44.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:45. > :22:46.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:47. > :22:52.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:53. > :22:57.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:58. > :23:01.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:02. > :23:04.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:05. > :23:08.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:09. > :23:13.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:14. > :23:17.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:18. > :23:30.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:31. > :23:34.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:35. > :23:37.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:38. > :23:41.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:42. > :23:43.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:44. > :23:47.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:48. > :23:53.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:54. > :23:57.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:23:58. > :24:03.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:04. > :24:08.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:09. > :24:13.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:14. > :24:17.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:18. > :24:22.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:23. > :24:28.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:29. > :24:31.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:32. > :24:36.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:37. > :24:40.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:41. > :24:45.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:46. > :24:49.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:50. > :24:53.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:54. > :24:57.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:24:58. > :25:03.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:04. > :25:05.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:06. > :25:09.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:10. > :25:14.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:15. > :25:19.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:20. > :25:26.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:27. > :25:30.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:31. > :25:35.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:36. > :25:37.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:38. > :25:42.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:43. > :25:48.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:49. > :25:50.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:51. > :25:56.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:57. > :26:01.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:02. > :26:05.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:06. > :26:09.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:10. > :26:12.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:13. > :26:16.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:17. > :26:21.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:22. > :26:26.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:27. > :26:29.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:30. > :26:33.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:34. > :26:42.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:43. > :26:49.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:50. > :26:52.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:53. > :26:56.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:57. > :27:02.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:03. > :27:04.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:05. > :27:07.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:08. > :27:13.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:14. > :27:18.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:19. > :27:21.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:22. > :27:24.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:25. > :27:31.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:32. > :27:35.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:36. > :27:42.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:43. > :27:45.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:46. > :27:49.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:50. > :27:53.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:54. > :27:58.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:27:59. > :28:04.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:05. > :28:07.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:08. > :28:10.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:11. > :28:14.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:15. > :28:19.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:20. > :28:25.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:26. > :28:28.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:29. > :28:29.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:30. > :28:33.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:34. > :28:35.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:36. > :28:37.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:38. > :28:39.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:40. > :28:42.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:43. > :28:45.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:46. > :28:51.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:52. > :28:53.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:54. > :29:01.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:02. > :29:05.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:06. > :29:12.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:13. > :29:15.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:16. > :29:23.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:24. > :29:26.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:27. > :29:29.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:30. > :29:31.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:32. > :29:34.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:35. > :29:37.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:38. > :29:40.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:41. > :29:42.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:43. > :29:48.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:49. > :29:54.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:55. > :30:00.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:01. > :30:02.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:03. > :30:05.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:06. > :30:16.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:17. > :30:18.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:19. > :30:23.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:24. > :30:26.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:27. > :30:29.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:30. > :30:34.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:35. > :30:36.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:37. > :30:38.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:39. > :30:40.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:41. > :30:43.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:44. > :30:47.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:48. > :30:50.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:51. > :30:53.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:54. > :30:56.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:57. > :30:58.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:30:59. > :31:00.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:01. > :31:04.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:05. > :31:07.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:08. > :31:10.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:11. > :31:13.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:14. > :31:16.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:17. > :31:26.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:27. > :31:30.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:31. > :31:32.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:33. > :31:38.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:39. > :31:40.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:41. > :31:43.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:44. > :31:47.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:48. > :31:51.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:52. > :31:52.It is still something people care about.
:31:53. > :31:55.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:56. > :32:00.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:01. > :32:03.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:04. > :32:08.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:09. > :32:11.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:12. > :32:13.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:14. > :32:16.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:17. > :32:36.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:37. > :32:47.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:48. > :32:56.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:57. > :33:04.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:05. > :33:05.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:06. > :33:13.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:14. > :33:18.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:19. > :33:24.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:25. > :33:30.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:31. > :33:33.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:34. > :33:39.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:40. > :33:43.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:44. > :33:49.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:50. > :33:56.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:57. > :34:00.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:01. > :34:10.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:11. > :34:15.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:16. > :34:18.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:19. > :34:22.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:23. > :34:26.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:27. > :34:30.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:31. > :34:35.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:36. > :34:39.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:40. > :34:43.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:44. > :34:51.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:52. > :34:55.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:56. > :35:02.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:03. > :35:07.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:08. > :35:12.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:13. > :35:16.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:17. > :35:21.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:22. > :35:28.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:29. > :35:31.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:32. > :35:37.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:38. > :35:42.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:43. > :35:46.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:47. > :35:51.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:52. > :35:56.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:57. > :35:58.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:35:59. > :36:01.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:02. > :36:05.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:06. > :36:10.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:11. > :36:15.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:16. > :36:18.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:19. > :36:22.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:23. > :36:28.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:29. > :36:34.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:35. > :36:38.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:39. > :36:42.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:43. > :36:46.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:47. > :36:51.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:52. > :36:54.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:55. > :36:58.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:36:59. > :37:04.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:05. > :37:07.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:08. > :37:11.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:12. > :37:15.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:16. > :37:19.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:20. > :37:25.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:26. > :37:31.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:32. > :37:34.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:35. > :37:38.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:39. > :37:42.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:43. > :37:47.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:48. > :37:50.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:51. > :37:52.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:53. > :37:56.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:57. > :37:59.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:00. > :38:02.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:03. > :38:09.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:10. > :38:15.On today's show: Dorset council leaders this week asked
:38:16. > :38:19.the government to let them merge into two unitary authorities -
:38:20. > :38:23.A third of the councils oppose the plan, so where's
:38:24. > :38:29.First let's meet the two politicians who'll be with me
:38:30. > :38:32.Louise Goldsmith is the Conservative leader
:38:33. > :38:38.Paul Harvey is the leader of the Labour group on Basingstoke
:38:39. > :38:43.Local government finance was back in the news this week.
:38:44. > :38:45.When's it ever left it, you might ask?
:38:46. > :38:48.First we had Surrey County Council abandoning its plans
:38:49. > :38:52.for a referendum on a 15% council tax hike, amid allegations
:38:53. > :38:55.of a "sweetheart deal" being offered by the government to stop
:38:56. > :39:01.And then the think tank the Local Government Information Unit came out
:39:02. > :39:05.with a survey of local councils' finances in which one in ten
:39:06. > :39:10.believed they were in danger of failing to deliver core services.
:39:11. > :39:13.Councils are allowed to place a 3% precept on council tax
:39:14. > :39:19.Nine out of ten say it's not enough money, it won't make up the gap.
:39:20. > :39:24.Councils will retain 100% of the new business rates,
:39:25. > :39:27.half of councils tell us they will be worse off under
:39:28. > :39:34.The things they do want to do, increased powers over charging,
:39:35. > :39:38.ability to raise hotel taxes or other local taxes,
:39:39. > :39:41.revaluation of council tax bands, these things are off
:39:42. > :39:47.On that survey, Southern councils, fewer of them thought
:39:48. > :39:50.they would lose out on retention of business rates
:39:51. > :39:56.Surrey County Council, Louise, any discussions
:39:57. > :39:59.with central government about retaining business rates?
:40:00. > :40:02.Any memorandum of understanding, any deal?
:40:03. > :40:05.I will not talk about Surrey County Council.
:40:06. > :40:09.Your council tax people might ask why you haven't had a conversation.
:40:10. > :40:11.We have been working hard all year on our budget,
:40:12. > :40:16.we have had huge pressures on adult social care and children's social
:40:17. > :40:20.care, we are meeting those and will be going to council
:40:21. > :40:25.on Friday with a proposed increase of 3.95%.
:40:26. > :40:29.Which is about a ?50 rise for band E properties.
:40:30. > :40:36.It is asking people to pay more but then your costs are going up.
:40:37. > :40:40.Our costs are going up, as again adult social care
:40:41. > :40:47.We respect our residents, it is their money they are giving us
:40:48. > :40:51.and they are having pressures, they will have an eight or 9%
:40:52. > :40:57.increase in electricity and gas, an increase in car fuel
:40:58. > :41:00.and with the low pound, that will mean more money
:41:01. > :41:04.we are paying for our shopping and we are are aware of that.
:41:05. > :41:09.We did a survey that said people would accept 3.75 so we have
:41:10. > :41:18.We are a traditional Conservative council and live within our means.
:41:19. > :41:22.Would you have asked for 15 in Basingstoke?
:41:23. > :41:25.It shows about adult social care, if those are the pressures
:41:26. > :41:27.councils are facing, it's the same in Hampshire,
:41:28. > :41:32.?55 million cut coming in adult social care,
:41:33. > :41:36.then why is it that Surrey gets offered a secret deal?
:41:37. > :41:39.If that is how the government goes about its business it's shocking
:41:40. > :41:46.The texts are there for everyone to see.
:41:47. > :41:56.Sajid Javid said they are running a pilot on bringing forward
:41:57. > :42:03.the business rate tax in 2018, people will be invited to join that.
:42:04. > :42:11.It was clearly on the website, that was on offer.
:42:12. > :42:14.If this is how the Conservative treat social care, whether a deal
:42:15. > :42:20.This is a serious issue and needs to be treated properly.
:42:21. > :42:27.We are aware of that, we had a big debate in the county council
:42:28. > :42:32.in December across all parties, we need a real review
:42:33. > :42:40.I have had a letter back from Sajid Javid looking at how
:42:41. > :42:43.they can start working on that so there are things going
:42:44. > :42:46.on but we have had a high increase in demographics,
:42:47. > :42:50.a lot of pressures for us and that is being put on us
:42:51. > :42:54.at a time when we are having to look at costs.
:42:55. > :42:56.Are you going to lose votes over this?
:42:57. > :42:58.I think people understand we are trying to do our best
:42:59. > :43:04.and we will continue to deliver that.
:43:05. > :43:07.We are investing in adult social care but we are looking at how
:43:08. > :43:09.we deliver those social care services, how we deliver
:43:10. > :43:15.and a lot of this work is long-term preventative work with partners.
:43:16. > :43:19.But it doesn't bring the savings as quickly as we would like.
:43:20. > :43:22.Reorganising adult social care, I understand that, we want to see
:43:23. > :43:26.the NHS working alongside social care, but like in Hampshire,
:43:27. > :43:29.where a 16% increase in some residential care,
:43:30. > :43:32.that is a massive figure, ?100 a week some residents
:43:33. > :43:35.are being asked to pay more because of cuts
:43:36. > :43:43.A lot of the South-east, we have a strong economy getting
:43:44. > :43:48.workers into work in social care, it's a great industry to work
:43:49. > :43:52.in and we are encouraging recruitment but we have almost full
:43:53. > :43:56.employment here and that puts extra pressures on,
:43:57. > :44:00.so the South-east has some particular pressures which may not
:44:01. > :44:03.be quite so strong in other parts of the country.
:44:04. > :44:06.It sounds like a special case to be made to someone.
:44:07. > :44:10.We will keep pressing because this cross-party,
:44:11. > :44:16.You might remember a couple of weeks back we were talking
:44:17. > :44:19.about the new supposedly fairer funding formula for schools.
:44:20. > :44:23.Well, at PMQs this week several MPs brought up with the Prime Minister
:44:24. > :44:26.the unfairness of it, as they saw it.
:44:27. > :44:28.And a group of Oxfordshire schools were warning that with half
:44:29. > :44:32.of the county's schools set to get less money, it could mean
:44:33. > :44:36.bigger class sizes or cuts to teaching hours.
:44:37. > :44:39.Joining me now from our Oxford studio is Catherine Darnton
:44:40. > :44:43.of the Oxfordshire Secondary Schools Head Teachers Association.
:44:44. > :44:50.You have got some schools doing better, some schools doing worse.
:44:51. > :44:54.That's what happens when you sort out fairness.
:44:55. > :44:58.Unfortunately Oxfordshire has been one of the worst funded local
:44:59. > :45:03.authorities for many years, we have worked hard with our MPs
:45:04. > :45:07.to campaign through the f40 group for an increase in funding
:45:08. > :45:11.and I don't think it had crossed any of our minds until the proposals
:45:12. > :45:15.were published in December that the county would see such
:45:16. > :45:24.You weren't campaigning for fairer funding, just saying more money.
:45:25. > :45:26.We were campaigning for fairer funding.
:45:27. > :45:29.We were in the bottom quarter of authorities by funding.
:45:30. > :45:37.The range in the country was roughly 4500 per pupil to 6500 per pupil,
:45:38. > :45:43.so if we were in the bottom 40 we expected an equalisation
:45:44. > :45:50.so all pupils would receive roughly ?5500 each, but obviously with some
:45:51. > :45:54.weighting for pupils with deprivation and low prior
:45:55. > :45:57.attainment and additional needs receiving more,
:45:58. > :46:02.But on average in Oxfordshire, funding will increase,
:46:03. > :46:08.you have eight schools losing, 27 gaining or no change, according
:46:09. > :46:11.to the government's assessment, and three of those gained over 4%
:46:12. > :46:17.Those numbers are for the secondary schools
:46:18. > :46:21.Overall across the whole authority there are 130
:46:22. > :46:29.losers and 133 winners, but inflation is running at over
:46:30. > :46:34.1.5%, pay rises are running at 1%, schools are being given the same
:46:35. > :46:39.amount of money per pupil in flat cash terms since 2010
:46:40. > :46:43.and the National Audit Office said before Christmas that schools
:46:44. > :46:49.are facing an 8% real terms cut between now and 2020,
:46:50. > :46:54.so offering Oxford schools 1.5% more will hardly meet the cost pressures
:46:55. > :46:58.of just one year and we have already had seven years of cost pressures
:46:59. > :47:02.What are the consequences if you don't get the sort
:47:03. > :47:11.We have understood the need for austerity and since 2010 every
:47:12. > :47:15.year because of inflation and pay rises and increases
:47:16. > :47:17.in pension contributions and National Insurance,
:47:18. > :47:23.we have to provide the same education for less money,
:47:24. > :47:27.so the 20% of school budgets which are not to do with staff costs
:47:28. > :47:31.have been cut and cut and there is nothing more
:47:32. > :47:36.We have cut resources and IT, we have cut maintenance of buildings
:47:37. > :47:40.and are getting to the point where we can only cut people
:47:41. > :47:44.and if you are going to have fewer teachers, the only way you can
:47:45. > :47:48.manage is for there to be either larger classes
:47:49. > :47:57.We don't carry any slack, even in a secondary school,
:47:58. > :48:02.we carry about two thirds of the teacher slack to make
:48:03. > :48:06.the timetable build, we have nothing else and that is why
:48:07. > :48:12.you cannot ask us to cut any more without having a demonstrable impact
:48:13. > :48:17.on students' education and a consequent fall in standards
:48:18. > :48:20.and that is why it is so important to fight for Oxfordshire
:48:21. > :48:23.because we don't want to be a locality where we cannot go
:48:24. > :48:26.We have improved our schools well in the past few years
:48:27. > :48:31.These are proposals at the moment to sort out funding,
:48:32. > :48:34.you must be concerned that they will have to last
:48:35. > :48:39.for a long time and unless you get it right now you will be stuck.
:48:40. > :48:43.That's right, I think this is a once in my professional career
:48:44. > :48:48.opportunity for this to be sorted out right and it wouldn't be
:48:49. > :48:53.overstating it to say when I saw the proposals I was devastated.
:48:54. > :48:56.It hadn't crossed my mind that Oxfordshire wouldn't be
:48:57. > :49:01.substantially better funded to the tune of 8% or 10%,
:49:02. > :49:08.It's very hard when a proposal has been published which tells schools
:49:09. > :49:12.what they could expect under the new formula, to challenge that.
:49:13. > :49:15.They want to bring it in in April 2018 but we say they must
:49:16. > :49:19.The consultation closes on the 22nd of March
:49:20. > :49:22.and it is crucial that governors, teachers, headteachers,
:49:23. > :49:27.parents say this is not the model they want.
:49:28. > :49:33.Paul Harvey, you were also looking for fairer funding
:49:34. > :49:37.for rural schools in particular, so would you say the budget needs
:49:38. > :49:41.Yes, that is the reality teachers are saying.
:49:42. > :49:44.Even on this formula, on the increase that has
:49:45. > :49:46.been put on the table, it doesn't meet their cost
:49:47. > :49:51.Hampshire is looking at taking ?51 million off its education budget
:49:52. > :49:58.That is talking about teachers being sacked, schools cutting
:49:59. > :50:02.One of my local primary schools is facing ?100,000
:50:03. > :50:06.taken off its budget, a local secondary school is facing
:50:07. > :50:11.?390,000 taken off its budget, that means teachers in classrooms
:50:12. > :50:15.being made redundant and it is a huge issue
:50:16. > :50:18.if you want to keep the quality of teaching, which we all
:50:19. > :50:22.Louise, you campaigned for fairer funding.
:50:23. > :50:28.We did campaign very heavily and joined the f40,
:50:29. > :50:32.now we are campaigning to make sure it is fairer funding.
:50:33. > :50:38.We are about 35% worse off and like many Shire counties have
:50:39. > :50:41.similar issues to Oxford and I think we ought to have a Shire challenge
:50:42. > :50:48.like the London challenge, but the point being made by our MPs
:50:49. > :50:53.and teachers is that we want to go for the minimus, and that means
:50:54. > :51:00.all schools have a basic cost, whatever it is to run a primary
:51:01. > :51:03.or secondary school, the costs are pretty well the same
:51:04. > :51:06.across the country, then you add on extra costs,
:51:07. > :51:09.especially in an area with deprivation, that
:51:10. > :51:14.would be a fairer way, a lot of MPs are backing that.
:51:15. > :51:18.This consultation finishes on the 22nd of March so we have time
:51:19. > :51:22.to lobby and put the case and I know our headteachers
:51:23. > :51:28.I think this was a common theme across the Shire so hopefully
:51:29. > :51:34.We will need more money on the table, we will have to.
:51:35. > :51:40.Now, nine into two just won't go, say three of them.
:51:41. > :51:44.OK, that sounds like gobbledegook, but it's all about the row brewing
:51:45. > :51:48.over reorganising the nine Dorset councils into two larger
:51:49. > :51:51.unitary authorities, thus cutting the number
:51:52. > :51:54.of councillors and saving money, so it's claimed by those in favour.
:51:55. > :51:58.Only problem is - three of the nine councils actually aren t in favour.
:51:59. > :52:01.Our Dorset political reporter Tristan Pascoe takes up
:52:02. > :52:11.The idea is to merge Dorset's nine councils and create
:52:12. > :52:15.two new unitary authorities - and that's the basis of the bid sent
:52:16. > :52:20.But not all of the nine partner councils support the plans -
:52:21. > :52:23.so would it be democratic for the Secretary of State to ignore
:52:24. > :52:29.those opponents and to impose it on the county anyway?
:52:30. > :52:33.This is a very crude map of Dorset's current nine council areas,
:52:34. > :52:36.with the economic powerhouse of Bournemouth and Poole
:52:37. > :52:38.keen to merge with its neighbour Christchurch -
:52:39. > :52:40.and the other five councils all lumped together
:52:41. > :52:48.But recently, three small councils that butt up
:52:49. > :52:52.against the conurbation, Purbeck, East Dorset
:52:53. > :52:57.and Christchurch borough, voted no to being merged
:52:58. > :53:03.Despite the opposition of those three councils to being merged,
:53:04. > :53:06.the government has the final say and could foist the deal
:53:07. > :53:10.on the whole of Dorset - meaning those councils
:53:11. > :53:16.and councillors opposed could be merely tilting at windmills.
:53:17. > :53:20.And there has been considerable opposition.
:53:21. > :53:23.Cheers greeted the merger plans being rejected by Christchurch
:53:24. > :53:26.councillors and that may yet influence
:53:27. > :53:32.I don't see the Secretary of State imposing a decision
:53:33. > :53:35.against the will of three democratically elected councillors.
:53:36. > :53:41.He says he'll do all he can to thwart the plans.
:53:42. > :53:45.People want to keep control over their destiny.
:53:46. > :53:47.Bournemouth and Poole could join together and meanwhile
:53:48. > :53:52.we would have a combined authority which could deliver a strong
:53:53. > :53:59.Several schemes to devolve powers from Westminster to councils
:54:00. > :54:01.across the country have hit the buffers recently.
:54:02. > :54:03.Not least because the government appears to be fed up with councils
:54:04. > :54:08.and councillors unable to agree a deal between themselves.
:54:09. > :54:12.In Purbeck the council vote on the mergers was split 11-11.
:54:13. > :54:15.The plans rejected by the casting vote.
:54:16. > :54:18.A consultation showed support from more than 60% of Purbeck
:54:19. > :54:23.However, I couldn't find any on the beach.
:54:24. > :54:29.I don't think we'll be represented, Poole and bigger councils will get
:54:30. > :54:32.everything and we won't get anything done here.
:54:33. > :54:35.I don't know the benefits, I can't see what they are.
:54:36. > :54:41.I'm sure it will save money but at what cost to people?
:54:42. > :54:45.The challenges that will be met by councils somewhere
:54:46. > :54:48.like Weymouth will be different, I would imagine,
:54:49. > :54:56.Economically it's a good idea, over the long term
:54:57. > :55:02.it will save a lot of money, council money and buildings,
:55:03. > :55:05.but democratically it will cause a deficit.
:55:06. > :55:07.There will be less councillors so less representation
:55:08. > :55:11.of the people, perhaps less diversity within the county
:55:12. > :55:15.council and people will be less represented.
:55:16. > :55:21.What will it do for the political map of Dorset?
:55:22. > :55:29.It's likely to be a Conservative stranglehold, I'm not necessarily
:55:30. > :55:32.saying that's a terrible thing but it also freezes out
:55:33. > :55:36.But the man who may well end up leading the new Shire unitary
:55:37. > :55:40.This is not rocket science, it works well in Cornwall
:55:41. > :55:43.and Wiltshire, it is not a ground-breaking proposal.
:55:44. > :55:45.We are following the lead of some well-run authorities
:55:46. > :55:48.across the county in being as efficient as we can be.
:55:49. > :55:52.Given that three of the six district councils, a third of Dorset
:55:53. > :55:56.council have voted no, doesn't this make a mockery
:55:57. > :56:00.One of them was very narrow, it's right they should weigh these
:56:01. > :56:04.things up but I think we have to look at the bigger picture.
:56:05. > :56:07.Nine councils cannot be the best arrangement of delivering
:56:08. > :56:10.public service in a county the size of Dorset.
:56:11. > :56:18.Ultimately the final decision rests with the Secretary
:56:19. > :56:20.of State for Communities and Local Government,
:56:21. > :56:24.and if he says yes, there is a group of concerned residents ready
:56:25. > :56:27.to press go on a Judicial Review - and even calls from Greens,
:56:28. > :56:29.Lib Dems and Ukip councillors for a referendum to give
:56:30. > :56:31.the residents the final say on a decision that affects every
:56:32. > :56:36.single council tax payer in the county.
:56:37. > :56:42.It's the great hope for saving money.
:56:43. > :56:44.Somehow you can be more efficient with mergers or combined
:56:45. > :56:50.You think Sajid Javid will think he cannot make an omelette
:56:51. > :56:52.without breaking a few eggs and force it on them?
:56:53. > :56:55.I wouldn't know what he will be thinking but some of these councils
:56:56. > :56:58.are small, as finances get tight they will have to look
:56:59. > :57:08.We have a great model in West Sussex, they share costs, that is
:57:09. > :57:13.But there will always be somebody opposed to something like this.
:57:14. > :57:25.It would set a precedent if Dorset said enough of you are in favour
:57:26. > :57:27.the protest will have to go by the board.
:57:28. > :57:29.I think people are very sensitive to their place,
:57:30. > :57:32.their identity and if that can be protected and they have
:57:33. > :57:35.the reassurance of that, I think that would go a long way
:57:36. > :57:40.And at the moment it's rejected, are you saying come up
:57:41. > :57:42.with your own solution but it's not a veto.
:57:43. > :57:45.You need to take people with you on this.
:57:46. > :57:47.The point of being a councillor is you are accountable
:57:48. > :57:53.to your community and in Hampshire it's difficult when Wiltshire
:57:54. > :57:58.is so remote from Basingstoke, we see decisions being taken miles
:57:59. > :58:02.away that affect our residents and we want to make those decisions.
:58:03. > :58:08.But when it comes to issues like social care and education,
:58:09. > :58:16.those decisions do affect local communities.
:58:17. > :58:18.Hampshire are consulting now on closing one of our local
:58:19. > :58:20.secondary schools, that's being taken by a councillor
:58:21. > :58:24.from Gosport, so he will decide on a local school in Basingstoke
:58:25. > :58:27.and that is out of touch with residents who care
:58:28. > :58:35.So you want smaller sizes, not bigger sizes like people in Dorset.
:58:36. > :58:37.I am a passionate believer in unitary authorities where weak share
:58:38. > :58:45.Paul makes a point that sometimes it takes time to do consultation,
:58:46. > :58:48.if you look at Manchester that got it right with the associations
:58:49. > :59:00.Going slowly, having good conversations is the way
:59:01. > :59:05.Now our regular round-up of the political week
:59:06. > :59:18.Arrests in Portsmouth broadcast live on Facebook.
:59:19. > :59:21.Can you see what's happening right now?
:59:22. > :59:24.Protesters have been trying to prevent the City Council taking
:59:25. > :59:27.control of an arts centre in Victoria Park.
:59:28. > :59:31.Thames Valley and Hampshire Police are to use spit hoods
:59:32. > :59:36.despite opposition from human right organisations.
:59:37. > :59:39.When they stop spitting, the spit guard will be removed.
:59:40. > :59:43.Teachers are using body cameras in the classroom.
:59:44. > :59:48.Getting a child to look at their behaviour.
:59:49. > :59:55.I have a camera on my car, it's the same principle.
:59:56. > :59:57.But they're reducing technology with raw milk straight
:59:58. > :00:01.from the cow at Northville farm dairy in Buckinghamshire.
:00:02. > :00:09.From the shack to the shed, men's shed project near Andover
:00:10. > :00:12.offering man the working environment they might miss when they retire.
:00:13. > :00:18.Because they haven't anything else better to do.
:00:19. > :00:28.Absolutely not, that is why men's sheds, all but community
:00:29. > :00:31.where people can get together, we learn a lot from each
:00:32. > :00:33.other and that is a great side of human beings.
:00:34. > :00:40.The two things that scare me, Donald Trump's tweets,
:00:41. > :00:43.Politics, shaking hands, meeting people, talking about their issues,
:00:44. > :00:45.engaging face-to-face, that is where real politics is done.
:00:46. > :00:48.That's been Sunday Politics in the South.
:00:49. > :00:52.Thanks to my guests, Louise Goldsmith and Paul Harvey.
:00:53. > :00:55.We're off next week for half term but back in a fortnight
:00:56. > :01:03.For now, though, it's back to Andrew.
:01:04. > :01:14.After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,
:01:15. > :01:17.MPs are having a little break this week as we head into
:01:18. > :01:21.But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -
:01:22. > :01:28.let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.
:01:29. > :01:38.There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The
:01:39. > :01:41.budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this
:01:42. > :01:56.Government because it moves to the autumn.
:01:57. > :02:02.That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably
:02:03. > :02:08.about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,
:02:09. > :02:15.then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next
:02:16. > :02:19.President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour
:02:20. > :02:22.leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of
:02:23. > :02:28.March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew
:02:29. > :02:33.Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to
:02:34. > :02:39.block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised
:02:40. > :02:43.if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination
:02:44. > :02:48.to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think
:02:49. > :02:53.one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor
:02:54. > :02:58.the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you
:02:59. > :03:00.think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it
:03:01. > :03:03.would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name
:03:04. > :03:10.the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a
:03:11. > :03:14.good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics
:03:15. > :03:17.for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in
:03:18. > :03:21.our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can
:03:22. > :03:25.find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to
:03:26. > :03:30.time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change
:03:31. > :03:36.politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger
:03:37. > :03:39.than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal
:03:40. > :03:45.Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would
:03:46. > :03:49.suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does
:03:50. > :03:55.get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay
:03:56. > :03:58.that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have
:03:59. > :04:04.another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary
:04:05. > :04:11.of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the
:04:12. > :04:16.table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have
:04:17. > :04:19.done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew
:04:20. > :04:26.Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back
:04:27. > :04:31.but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal
:04:32. > :04:36.Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not
:04:37. > :04:41.the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the
:04:42. > :04:44.European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know
:04:45. > :04:47.because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch
:04:48. > :04:52.taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at
:04:53. > :04:59.the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a
:05:00. > :05:06.play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first
:05:07. > :05:10.in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish
:05:11. > :05:15.Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that
:05:16. > :05:20.will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.
:05:21. > :05:24.You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a
:05:25. > :05:29.national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing
:05:30. > :05:36.France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A
:05:37. > :05:41.reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in
:05:42. > :05:48.the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected
:05:49. > :05:54.elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal
:05:55. > :06:01.views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them
:06:02. > :06:09.to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le
:06:10. > :06:13.Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the
:06:14. > :06:20.future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are
:06:21. > :06:24.were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some
:06:25. > :06:28.problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in
:06:29. > :06:32.the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a
:06:33. > :06:39.number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of
:06:40. > :06:47.people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She
:06:48. > :06:53.thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't
:06:54. > :06:58.got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to
:06:59. > :07:02.play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,
:07:03. > :07:08.not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how
:07:09. > :07:22.much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting
:07:23. > :07:24.on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from
:07:25. > :07:28.European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see
:07:29. > :07:34.what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do
:07:35. > :07:37.know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get
:07:38. > :07:42.through to the second round. He could come firth but the
:07:43. > :07:46.centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would
:07:47. > :07:51.say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to
:07:52. > :07:55.saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le
:07:56. > :08:01.Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,
:08:02. > :08:08.it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as
:08:09. > :08:11.in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had
:08:12. > :08:14.got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has
:08:15. > :08:20.transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the
:08:21. > :08:26.French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April
:08:27. > :08:31.23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he
:08:32. > :08:32.was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,
:08:33. > :08:37.this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership
:08:38. > :08:41.election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,
:08:42. > :08:44.but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this
:08:45. > :08:47.parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear
:08:48. > :09:03.message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you
:09:04. > :09:08.are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media
:09:09. > :09:11.performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,
:09:12. > :09:16.things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win
:09:17. > :09:22.2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their
:09:23. > :09:26.offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking
:09:27. > :09:31.well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might
:09:32. > :09:39.like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going
:09:40. > :09:46.to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he
:09:47. > :09:53.the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership
:09:54. > :09:57.is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide
:09:58. > :10:02.to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is
:10:03. > :10:06.not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be
:10:07. > :10:11.the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas
:10:12. > :10:17.would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if
:10:18. > :10:22.we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general
:10:23. > :10:26.election, which means you have another itration of this, another
:10:27. > :10:34.five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour
:10:35. > :10:38.moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general
:10:39. > :10:42.election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for
:10:43. > :10:47.the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn
:10:48. > :10:52.going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment
:10:53. > :10:57.being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated
:10:58. > :11:02.the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.
:11:03. > :11:09.Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had
:11:10. > :11:12.their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest
:11:13. > :11:17.they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any
:11:18. > :11:24.indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is
:11:25. > :11:29.now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what
:11:30. > :11:35.he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another
:11:36. > :11:41.attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question
:11:42. > :11:46.enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a
:11:47. > :11:52.daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about
:11:53. > :11:56.winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of
:11:57. > :12:00.two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself
:12:01. > :12:07.will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half
:12:08. > :12:11.hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some
:12:12. > :12:17.people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another
:12:18. > :12:23.three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it
:12:24. > :12:28.lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be
:12:29. > :12:33.under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this
:12:34. > :12:37.level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the
:12:38. > :12:41.idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the
:12:42. > :12:47.people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and
:12:48. > :12:51.they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most
:12:52. > :12:55.of people were let alone most of the public.
:12:56. > :13:02.Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership
:13:03. > :13:06.potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the
:13:07. > :13:08.Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That
:13:09. > :13:11.is it. Now, there's no Daily
:13:12. > :13:14.or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back
:13:15. > :13:18.on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics
:13:19. > :13:22.on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:23. > :14:02.it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from
:14:03. > :14:05.a very long shift at work...