:00:40. > :00:45.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:46. > :00:46.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:47. > :00:48.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:49. > :00:50.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:51. > :00:52.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:53. > :00:54.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:55. > :00:57.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:00:58. > :01:07.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:08. > :01:12.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:13. > :01:15.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact
:01:16. > :01:23.In the south, are you going to be but after riots in Stockholm this
:01:24. > :01:25.In the south, are you going to be hit by an unexpected rise in council
:01:26. > :01:30.tax? Some parish tax in all but four local
:01:31. > :01:37.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:38. > :01:40.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:41. > :01:48.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:49. > :01:52.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:53. > :01:55.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:56. > :02:05.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:06. > :02:10.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:11. > :02:14.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:15. > :02:19.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:20. > :02:24.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:25. > :02:29.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:30. > :02:33.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:34. > :02:37.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:38. > :02:41.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:42. > :02:45.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:46. > :02:51.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:52. > :02:58.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:02:59. > :03:02.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:03. > :03:07.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:08. > :03:11.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:12. > :03:17.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:18. > :03:21.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:22. > :03:26.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:27. > :03:32.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:33. > :03:39.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:40. > :03:44.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:45. > :03:48.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:49. > :03:52.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:53. > :03:57.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:03:58. > :04:03.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:04. > :04:07.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:08. > :04:11.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:12. > :04:16.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:17. > :04:20.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:21. > :04:25.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:26. > :04:28.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:29. > :04:32.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:33. > :04:39.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:40. > :04:42.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:43. > :04:47.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:48. > :04:50.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:51. > :04:54.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:55. > :05:00.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:01. > :05:04.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:05. > :05:11.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:12. > :05:13.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:14. > :05:17.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:18. > :05:23.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:24. > :05:27.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:28. > :05:31.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:32. > :05:35.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:36. > :05:40.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:41. > :05:43.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:44. > :05:44.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:45. > :05:46.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:47. > :05:51.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:52. > :05:59.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:00. > :06:03.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:04. > :06:08.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:09. > :06:11.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:12. > :06:15.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:16. > :06:21.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:22. > :06:23.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:24. > :06:26.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:27. > :06:29.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:30. > :06:32.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:33. > :06:37.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:38. > :06:45.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:46. > :06:47.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:48. > :06:49.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:50. > :06:52.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:53. > :06:55.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:56. > :06:59.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:00. > :07:02.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:03. > :07:10.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:11. > :07:17.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:18. > :07:20.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:21. > :07:26.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:27. > :07:29.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:30. > :07:38.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:39. > :07:41.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:42. > :07:46.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:47. > :07:50.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:51. > :08:01.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:02. > :08:06.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:07. > :08:08.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:09. > :08:19.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:20. > :08:23.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:24. > :08:28.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:29. > :08:32.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:33. > :08:35.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:36. > :08:42.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:43. > :08:44.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:45. > :08:49.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:50. > :08:52.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:53. > :09:01.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:02. > :09:03.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:04. > :09:06.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:07. > :09:11.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:12. > :09:14.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:15. > :09:17.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:18. > :09:22.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:23. > :09:25.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:26. > :09:27.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:28. > :09:33.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:34. > :09:37.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:38. > :09:40.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:41. > :09:45.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:46. > :09:52.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:53. > :09:55.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:56. > :10:01.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:02. > :10:05.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:06. > :10:17.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:18. > :10:20.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:21. > :10:22.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:23. > :10:27.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:28. > :10:29.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:30. > :10:32.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:33. > :10:48.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:49. > :10:51.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:52. > :10:56.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:10:57. > :11:04.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:05. > :11:06.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:07. > :11:10.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:11. > :11:13.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:14. > :11:17.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:18. > :11:24.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:25. > :11:27.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:28. > :11:31.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:32. > :11:35.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:36. > :11:41.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:42. > :11:47.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:48. > :11:53.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:54. > :11:58.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:11:59. > :12:03.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:04. > :12:07.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:08. > :12:11.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:12. > :12:13.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:14. > :12:17.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:18. > :12:21.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:22. > :12:26.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:27. > :12:29.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:30. > :12:36.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:37. > :12:39.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:40. > :12:44.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:45. > :12:48.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:49. > :12:51.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:52. > :12:59.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:00. > :13:04.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:05. > :13:09.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:10. > :13:14.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:15. > :13:20.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:21. > :13:27.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:28. > :13:30.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:31. > :13:34.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:35. > :13:37.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:38. > :13:43.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:44. > :13:47.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:48. > :13:51.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:52. > :13:55.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:56. > :14:00.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:01. > :14:05.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:06. > :14:08.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:09. > :14:14.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:15. > :14:18.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:19. > :14:22.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:23. > :14:27.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:28. > :14:32.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:33. > :14:36.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:37. > :14:39.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:40. > :14:44.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:45. > :14:47.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:48. > :14:51.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:52. > :14:54.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:55. > :14:59.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:00. > :15:07.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:08. > :15:09.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:10. > :15:12.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:13. > :15:15.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:16. > :15:19.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:20. > :15:20.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:21. > :15:29.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:30. > :15:34.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:35. > :15:38.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:39. > :15:42.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:43. > :15:48.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:49. > :15:51.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:52. > :15:56.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:57. > :16:00.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:01. > :16:05.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:06. > :16:28.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:29. > :16:32.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:33. > :16:34.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:35. > :16:36.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:37. > :16:39.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:40. > :16:41.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:42. > :16:43.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:44. > :16:45.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:46. > :16:48.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:49. > :16:50.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:51. > :16:54.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:55. > :16:58.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:16:59. > :17:03.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:04. > :17:07.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:08. > :17:12.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:13. > :17:16.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:17. > :17:22.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:23. > :17:25.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:26. > :17:30.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:31. > :17:45.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:46. > :17:49.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:50. > :17:51.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:52. > :17:54.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:55. > :17:56.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:17:57. > :18:00.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:01. > :18:04.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:05. > :18:12.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:13. > :18:16.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:17. > :18:20.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:21. > :18:26.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:27. > :18:31.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:32. > :18:35.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:36. > :18:40.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:41. > :18:45.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:46. > :18:51.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:52. > :18:53.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:54. > :19:00.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:01. > :19:03.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:04. > :19:08.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:09. > :19:12.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:13. > :19:21.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:22. > :19:25.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:26. > :19:29.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:30. > :19:33.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:34. > :19:37.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:38. > :19:42.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:43. > :19:47.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:48. > :19:54.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:55. > :19:57.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:19:58. > :20:02.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:03. > :20:06.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:07. > :20:10.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:11. > :20:11.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:12. > :20:13.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:14. > :20:15.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:16. > :20:17.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:18. > :20:20.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:21. > :20:30.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:31. > :20:34.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:35. > :20:40.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:41. > :20:45.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:46. > :20:48.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:49. > :20:52.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:53. > :20:58.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:20:59. > :21:04.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:05. > :21:09.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:10. > :21:14.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:15. > :21:19.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:20. > :21:24.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:25. > :21:28.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:29. > :21:33.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:34. > :21:35.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:36. > :21:52.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:53. > :21:54.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:55. > :21:56.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:21:57. > :21:59.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:00. > :22:01.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:02. > :22:05.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:06. > :22:11.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:12. > :22:17.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:18. > :22:24.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:25. > :22:28.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:29. > :22:32.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:33. > :22:37.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:38. > :22:42.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:43. > :22:48.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:49. > :22:51.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:52. > :22:54.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:55. > :23:11.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:12. > :23:13.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:14. > :23:15.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:16. > :23:17.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:18. > :23:20.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:21. > :23:23.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:24. > :23:27.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:28. > :23:32.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:33. > :23:36.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:37. > :23:40.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:41. > :23:43.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:44. > :23:49.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:50. > :23:54.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:55. > :24:00.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:01. > :24:04.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:05. > :24:09.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:10. > :24:13.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:14. > :24:18.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:19. > :24:23.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:24. > :24:31.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:32. > :24:34.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:35. > :24:37.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:38. > :24:40.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:41. > :24:45.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:46. > :24:49.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:50. > :24:53.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:54. > :24:58.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:24:59. > :25:03.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:04. > :25:08.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:09. > :25:12.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:13. > :25:16.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:17. > :25:22.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:23. > :25:29.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:30. > :25:32.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:33. > :25:38.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:39. > :25:43.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:44. > :25:47.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:48. > :25:51.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:52. > :25:57.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:25:58. > :26:00.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:01. > :26:06.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:07. > :26:11.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:12. > :26:14.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:15. > :26:20.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:21. > :26:23.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:24. > :26:28.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:29. > :26:32.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:33. > :26:38.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:39. > :26:41.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:42. > :26:46.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:47. > :26:50.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:51. > :26:57.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:26:58. > :27:02.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:03. > :27:05.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:06. > :27:09.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:10. > :27:15.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:16. > :27:18.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:19. > :27:23.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:24. > :27:27.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:28. > :27:31.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:32. > :27:36.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:37. > :27:41.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:42. > :27:46.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:47. > :27:50.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:51. > :27:55.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:56. > :28:00.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:01. > :28:04.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:05. > :28:08.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:09. > :28:12.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:13. > :28:14.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:15. > :28:15.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:16. > :28:19.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:20. > :28:20.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:21. > :28:29.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:30. > :28:32.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:33. > :28:36.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:37. > :28:38.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:39. > :28:42.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:43. > :28:44.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:45. > :28:47.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:48. > :28:49.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:50. > :28:59.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:00. > :29:01.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:02. > :29:08.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:09. > :29:10.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:11. > :29:18.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:19. > :29:20.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:21. > :29:29.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:30. > :29:32.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:33. > :29:34.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:35. > :29:36.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:37. > :29:42.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:43. > :29:44.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:45. > :29:50.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:51. > :29:53.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:54. > :30:06.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:07. > :30:08.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:09. > :30:23.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:24. > :30:28.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:29. > :30:32.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:33. > :30:37.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:38. > :30:42.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:43. > :30:46.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:47. > :30:50.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:51. > :30:58.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:30:59. > :31:02.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:03. > :31:08.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:09. > :31:12.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:13. > :31:20.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:21. > :31:25.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:26. > :31:29.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:30. > :31:33.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:34. > :31:38.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:39. > :31:44.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:45. > :31:47.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:48. > :31:53.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:54. > :31:59.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:00. > :32:04.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:05. > :32:08.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:09. > :32:11.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:12. > :32:16.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:17. > :32:20.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:21. > :32:25.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:26. > :32:31.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:32. > :32:37.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:38. > :32:42.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:43. > :32:47.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:48. > :32:52.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:53. > :33:00.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:01. > :33:05.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:06. > :33:10.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:11. > :33:13.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:14. > :33:19.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:20. > :33:25.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:26. > :33:29.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:30. > :33:33.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:34. > :33:40.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:41. > :33:45.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:46. > :33:49.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:50. > :33:54.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:55. > :33:58.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:33:59. > :34:03.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:04. > :34:07.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:08. > :34:13.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:14. > :34:18.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:19. > :34:21.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it
:34:22. > :34:28.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.
:34:29. > :34:31.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do
:34:32. > :34:35.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other
:34:36. > :34:39.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you
:34:40. > :34:42.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country
:34:43. > :34:47.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live
:34:48. > :34:55.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start
:34:56. > :35:02.enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The
:35:03. > :35:06.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than
:35:07. > :35:11.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and
:35:12. > :35:16.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have
:35:17. > :35:21.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do
:35:22. > :35:24.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration
:35:25. > :35:29.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated
:35:30. > :35:31.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and
:35:32. > :35:40.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.
:35:41. > :35:46.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes
:35:47. > :35:51.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I
:35:52. > :35:55.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a
:35:56. > :36:00.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad
:36:01. > :36:03.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can
:36:04. > :36:08.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of
:36:09. > :36:15.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.
:36:16. > :36:21.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,
:36:22. > :36:26.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees
:36:27. > :36:30.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for
:36:31. > :36:34.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge
:36:35. > :36:40.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in
:36:41. > :36:44.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt
:36:45. > :36:47.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly
:36:48. > :36:53.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish
:36:54. > :37:03.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo
:37:04. > :37:13.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010
:37:14. > :37:17.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got
:37:18. > :37:23.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are
:37:24. > :37:27.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own
:37:28. > :37:34.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our
:37:35. > :37:37.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to
:37:38. > :37:42.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say
:37:43. > :37:46.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say
:37:47. > :37:51.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.
:37:52. > :37:56.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we
:37:57. > :38:00.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped
:38:01. > :38:05.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That
:38:06. > :38:08.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An
:38:09. > :38:12.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then
:38:13. > :38:17.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is
:38:18. > :38:20.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial
:38:21. > :38:25.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not
:38:26. > :38:32.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to
:38:33. > :38:39.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is
:38:40. > :38:44.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by
:38:45. > :38:49.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right
:38:50. > :38:53.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what
:38:54. > :38:57.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain
:38:58. > :39:01.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background
:39:02. > :39:05.of the people living there but rather because of different
:39:06. > :39:10.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows
:39:11. > :39:13.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish
:39:14. > :39:17.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and
:39:18. > :39:21.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the
:39:22. > :39:25.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual
:39:26. > :39:32.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to
:39:33. > :39:37.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out
:39:38. > :39:42.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum
:39:43. > :39:47.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in
:39:48. > :39:51.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on
:39:52. > :39:56.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do
:39:57. > :39:59.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course
:40:00. > :40:13.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also
:40:14. > :40:16.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for
:40:17. > :40:18.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big
:40:19. > :40:22.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am
:40:23. > :40:23.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.
:40:24. > :40:25.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:26. > :40:28.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:29. > :40:41.the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat
:40:42. > :40:44.Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley.
:40:45. > :40:56.On today's show: Dorset council leaders this week asked
:40:57. > :41:12.They say it was inevitable but have they reached the final movements too
:41:13. > :41:15.soon? More on that in a moment. Donald Jones is the leader of the
:41:16. > :41:22.Conservatives and the leader of the council in Portsmouth. Is it the
:41:23. > :41:28.leader or the message that was wrong there? I'm not sure. I am with
:41:29. > :41:37.Jeremy Corbyn, or my heart is. I'm not sure whether my head is. Has it
:41:38. > :41:43.been like that for a while? I think Koblenz was a very particular case.
:41:44. > :41:49.it was quite important to the people it was quite important to the people
:41:50. > :41:52.who lived there. And therefore it's him, because it is his views on
:41:53. > :42:01.nuclear power rather than the Labour Party. Absolutely. Jeremy did come
:42:02. > :42:05.out and support nuclear energy. But maybe people weren't sure whether he
:42:06. > :42:12.really meant it. City be clearer about what he does mean in the wake
:42:13. > :42:16.of the membership they be seeing? I think possibly could. I think it's
:42:17. > :42:23.very sad that we have lost Copeland, but we haven't we need to learn by
:42:24. > :42:30.that. I would like Jeremy to be a bit more outspoken maybe sometimes.
:42:31. > :42:35.That seems strange because lots of people think he is too outspoken.
:42:36. > :42:41.Ukip voters stayed with you in Stoke. Ukip in Portsmouth is quite
:42:42. > :42:46.important. They have kept you in. Are you concerned? Or do you not
:42:47. > :42:54.care about what is happening with Ukip? I think yesterday's results in
:42:55. > :42:57.both Stoke and in Copeland are very interesting, because what we have
:42:58. > :43:00.noticed is that Ukip are really not polling. They're always the
:43:01. > :43:02.bridesmaid, never the bride. They bridesmaid, never the bride. They
:43:03. > :43:06.are really not a threat now. They are really not a threat now. They
:43:07. > :43:11.are a party about the European referendum which has now happens. We
:43:12. > :43:18.are exiting the EU and the party has failed to secure an identity. The
:43:19. > :43:21.Conservatives to win the Copeland seat after 18 years of being held by
:43:22. > :43:24.Labour is reading endorsement the government. Seven years into an
:43:25. > :43:27.austerity programme, it is an austerity programme, it is an
:43:28. > :43:31.encouraging message for Theresa May that she is on the right path, the
:43:32. > :43:36.economy is growing and Britain is really here, means business. The
:43:37. > :43:40.Conservatives are taking the UK from strength to strength. Issue missing
:43:41. > :43:43.a trick in not going for a mandate from the country now? No. She would
:43:44. > :43:46.have to take that back to parliaments. At the moment we are
:43:47. > :43:49.doing a good job. If there was a doing a good job. If there was a
:43:50. > :43:54.risk that we wouldn't win the General Election in 2020, she may
:43:55. > :43:59.choose to go sooner. I don't think there is any prospect of Labour
:44:00. > :44:02.beating the Conservatives and 2020. We are doing the things that people
:44:03. > :44:14.want to do which is fixing a broken economy has taken already. It is all
:44:15. > :44:17.very clear, isn't it? When I look at the situation in terms of local
:44:18. > :44:24.governments, where we have had budgets cut year-on-year over this
:44:25. > :44:29.past eight years, where we need to be able to raise taxation to fund
:44:30. > :44:32.children's social care, which is an children's social care, which is an
:44:33. > :44:37.even bigger mess in some places. even bigger mess in some places.
:44:38. > :44:48.Actually, the country isn't in the same... The good people at Stoke...
:44:49. > :44:54.You take some consolation from that? They stuck with Labour. We have now
:44:55. > :45:00.got a brilliant new Labour MP in Stoke. A local guy who understands
:45:01. > :45:06.the situation and he will make a massive difference. But the Labour
:45:07. > :45:12.vote share went down last turnout was around 46%. That is not a
:45:13. > :45:15.ringing endorsement. As we creep closer to triggering our departure
:45:16. > :45:20.from the EU, uncertainty looms large for the South's economy. Concerns
:45:21. > :45:32.about Brexit reaching all sectors including the arts. Listen to this.
:45:33. > :45:35.You might not recognise... Sorry, you would recognise the tune from
:45:36. > :45:40.the antiques road show but maybe not the players. That is the EU baraka
:45:41. > :45:44.struck currently based in Oxford. They announced it would soon moved
:45:45. > :45:48.to Belgium as a direct result of last June's referendum. The
:45:49. > :45:55.orchestra fears members will face stricter at the -- Visa regulations.
:45:56. > :46:00.Joining us now from Oxford is the orchestra's director-general, or
:46:01. > :46:06.James. It is the EU orchestra, I suppose the clue is the name. He
:46:07. > :46:12.were founded -- funded by the EU, was it inevitable? Yes. The clue is
:46:13. > :46:17.definitely in the name. We are co-funded by the European Union and
:46:18. > :46:22.we are an official cultural ambassador of the European Union, so
:46:23. > :46:37.in our case it was when rather than less. -- when we would move rather
:46:38. > :46:42.than if we would move. To have longer-term sustainability and
:46:43. > :46:46.eligibility. As a UK citizen, what are we going to replace it with?
:46:47. > :46:53.Have we lost this or is there a possibility that Oxford will get its
:46:54. > :46:57.own? I don't think it is a simple solution is bad. The orchestra will
:46:58. > :47:02.continue to move around, it may be continue to move around, it may be
:47:03. > :47:07.more difficult to move, but it is the bigger picture that is a more
:47:08. > :47:12.interesting question, but UK musicians and the cultural and
:47:13. > :47:17.educational sector will find it much harder to be able to join in with
:47:18. > :47:24.Astbury dissipated in these European cultural programmes and vice versa.
:47:25. > :47:27.The travel restrictions are certainly going to make a
:47:28. > :47:30.considerable difference to the way that we move around, because we
:47:31. > :47:38.often move from country to country, day by day, for concerts night after
:47:39. > :47:42.night. You don't want us to cut off, obviously. This has been the job you
:47:43. > :47:48.have been doing, to bring European culture together. What would
:47:49. > :47:53.actually stop them? Even in a hard Brexit, stop the orchestra coming
:47:54. > :47:57.back here? Only work permits and these restrictions would stop us
:47:58. > :48:01.coming back here. It would be added bureaucracy, and I'm not sure that's
:48:02. > :48:08.a lot of concern promoters and festival promoters... You don't know
:48:09. > :48:12.about that. We don't know but it seems every likelihood that it's
:48:13. > :48:18.going to be more, located. And our instruments are thoroughly
:48:19. > :48:23.specialise and we will need special arrangements. Musicians have the
:48:24. > :48:28.widest chance to travel around. Yes, it has always been that way. It is
:48:29. > :48:33.part of the heritage that people always moves to find work, to
:48:34. > :48:40.perform. This will without question become more difficult. Maybe you
:48:41. > :48:46.should be arguing that. That other systems of the future we can allow
:48:47. > :48:51.orchestras like yours to continue. I would agree 100%. I still think
:48:52. > :48:56.inclusive and it is very strange for inclusive and it is very strange for
:48:57. > :49:00.a UK organisation to be trying to run a European Union entity outside
:49:01. > :49:09.of the EU. It just doesn't make sense. It is not just musicians, it
:49:10. > :49:12.is academics in particular as well. Theresa May, did you we have had
:49:13. > :49:15.from government is that it will be fine, we are maintaining the status
:49:16. > :49:20.quo, there won't be any loss of confidence but it is already
:49:21. > :49:26.happening. Obviously the orchestra, the title is in the name. It is
:49:27. > :49:29.funded by the EU. They are having to relocate into a European Union
:49:30. > :49:33.member states to secure their ongoing funding, which I fully
:49:34. > :49:36.appreciate. I think the concern for me and rather people across the
:49:37. > :49:41.country, and for Paul himself, is country, and for Paul himself, is
:49:42. > :49:45.that we ensure that musicians and creative industries are able to
:49:46. > :49:49.travel back to Britain when they come to play. For example, in London
:49:50. > :49:53.at some of the beautiful symphony orchestra has as we have. I'm sure
:49:54. > :49:56.that will be sorted out. Musicians have travelled here from all around
:49:57. > :49:59.the world for hundreds of years and I don't see that as being a barrier.
:50:00. > :50:03.But as you understand, as European But as you understand, as European
:50:04. > :50:10.funded orchestra, why they need to be in a member state country. It
:50:11. > :50:16.isn't just academics, it is care workers. Absolutely. I think it is
:50:17. > :50:23.very sad that people are moving away from this country to go back to
:50:24. > :50:27.Europe, very often, as you say, can workers, people from Poland, and the
:50:28. > :50:31.Czech Republic, from across Europe, have been providing the care for
:50:32. > :50:37.elderly people, certainly in Oxfordshire over a number of years.
:50:38. > :50:42.Those people are going back already. They're not sure that they are
:50:43. > :50:45.wanted. It may be that something gets sorted out. They feel they're
:50:46. > :50:51.being used as pawns and is sort of bargaining games with the other
:50:52. > :50:55.European states. We have got scientists who are actually jointly
:50:56. > :51:01.funded across the whole of Europe, so they work she in institutions
:51:02. > :51:04.across Oxfordshire but they share with other people. It is maintaining
:51:05. > :51:08.and replacing grants wherever necessary. Dumping else is going
:51:09. > :51:14.wrong here. The message is not getting through. I think the message
:51:15. > :51:20.is, that's this is Brexit and we are going to be out. That is the
:51:21. > :51:28.message. Many people, that simple message is what they have God. With
:51:29. > :51:33.its does then you could have done eating remain and send a message
:51:34. > :51:37.that we are also part of Europe? I think you can send as many messages
:51:38. > :51:41.as you like but if you don't have the legality to be able to move
:51:42. > :51:47.around freely, and freedom of movement is... We don't know. We
:51:48. > :51:51.don't but I think as the other guests have suggested, things will
:51:52. > :51:54.be sorted out probably, but I think the cultural sector will be quite a
:51:55. > :51:59.long way down the list of priorities to be sorted. It may be several
:52:00. > :52:04.years before the true freedom of movement as possible. Thanks for
:52:05. > :52:09.joining us. It is the tier of local governments nobody knows about,
:52:10. > :52:12.parish town councils. They can take care of anything from allotments to
:52:13. > :52:16.play parks, but as larger authorities make budget cuts,
:52:17. > :52:20.parishes are taking on more and increasing their share of council
:52:21. > :52:23.tax as a result. Our oxygen reporter has been looking into whether we are
:52:24. > :52:31.seeing a council tax rise by the back door. It is not long for
:52:32. > :52:34.council tax bills will be landing on our maps, and if you have a parish
:52:35. > :52:39.or town council you might be in for a shock. Buried in the bill will be
:52:40. > :52:42.a charge from our lowest tier of local governments, with some parrot
:52:43. > :52:45.is bidding up taxes by more than 500% in recent years. So who is the
:52:46. > :52:50.most expensive? It is Oxfordshire's most expensive? It is Oxfordshire's
:52:51. > :52:58.pic of the priciest parishes. At number three, it is Backley and Spen
:52:59. > :53:04.Woods, whether parish council's annual charge for a band EBRD is
:53:05. > :53:09.approaching ?130 per year. Number two is tame, which you might
:53:10. > :53:15.recognise from Midsummer murders. Its town council is asking
:53:16. > :53:21.households were nearly ?137 a year. And the number one is barren fields,
:53:22. > :53:31.where the parish council has a charge of ?178 per year for a band D
:53:32. > :53:35.home. Not every area has a parish or town council, and where they do
:53:36. > :53:37.exist responsibilities vary from bus shelters to bins. They pay for
:53:38. > :53:41.services by charging a so-called services by charging a so-called
:53:42. > :53:47.precepts, an extra bed on your council tax. What are you getting
:53:48. > :53:51.barren fields? This is the skate park which was recently done a few
:53:52. > :53:58.years ago. Over there is the football billion that came to be in
:53:59. > :54:02.2004. We have to maintain the green. We are now maintaining parks on the
:54:03. > :54:05.half of the County Council. The parish council says that for nine
:54:06. > :54:09.years that hasn't actually asked for more money overall, but the amount
:54:10. > :54:13.of tax it has been able to raise has been decreasing. At the same time,
:54:14. > :54:18.is list of responsibilities is growing. As has been more and more
:54:19. > :54:22.difficult since the recession. Budgets are being cut at county and
:54:23. > :54:27.district level at the parishes are being expected to do more. As an
:54:28. > :54:30.individual I am not adverse to local people having local decisions, but
:54:31. > :54:36.it does concern me a little bits that as volunteers we are giving up
:54:37. > :54:40.our time to do well by the unity and more and more things are being asked
:54:41. > :54:46.of us. The pressure group is it fair, says responsibility is
:54:47. > :54:51.deliberately being passed on to Paris councils who had read to raise
:54:52. > :54:55.charges by as much as they want. Campaigners say it is a way of
:54:56. > :55:00.getting around 2% cap on increases that most other councils face. Paris
:55:01. > :55:06.councils have the choice of saying we are not want to do it or we will
:55:07. > :55:10.lose a service. They have no cap on parish councils. Continuously the
:55:11. > :55:15.government has promised that they will look at it, look at it, look at
:55:16. > :55:20.it but they have done nothing. There is no cap and the parish councils
:55:21. > :55:23.are free to put it up as much as they like. In Oxfordshire it is
:55:24. > :55:29.certainly the case that parish and town councils are taking on more.
:55:30. > :55:32.This town Council has been helping to keep their children's centre
:55:33. > :55:38.going after ongoing County Council funding was cut. The public stock me
:55:39. > :55:43.and said, I'm paying my council tax twice will stop the consumer puts
:55:44. > :55:46.our preset up but the County Council had told to take in the same amount
:55:47. > :55:52.of money but not providing the service. That is the comment I have
:55:53. > :55:57.would go along the line that we have would go along the line that we have
:55:58. > :56:03.to keep this service. I have to rise above that. It is a front-line
:56:04. > :56:06.services but have to be kept. The government says it expects parishes
:56:07. > :56:10.to demonstrate restraint when it comes to council tax rises, but a
:56:11. > :56:13.cap similar to the one place on district and county councils does
:56:14. > :56:19.not seem to be on the cards. Even our priciest parishes will be able
:56:20. > :56:28.to continue to increase council tax rates well above our bigger
:56:29. > :56:31.authorities. Only small amounts. It does feel like things are being
:56:32. > :56:38.passed to Paris councils deliberately, to increase the Pops.
:56:39. > :56:43.I think the bit about the children's centre was a relief good one.
:56:44. > :56:49.Oxfordshire did close children's centres. But the money wasn't cut
:56:50. > :56:53.the budget, the children's centres were closed by money was used to
:56:54. > :56:59.fund children's social care. It was used to paper social workers. Most
:57:00. > :57:07.vulnerable children and Families Bill of them. The problem is that as
:57:08. > :57:10.the pressure goes up, as the money that is needed by the local
:57:11. > :57:16.authority goes up in response to need, then some of the services that
:57:17. > :57:21.are valued in these communities... Is putting it through the back door?
:57:22. > :57:25.Yes. That it is getting paid for and I think that is the thing. It is
:57:26. > :57:32.saving services in these communities. How they talk to each
:57:33. > :57:35.other in the street every day, they know the fan -- value of some of
:57:36. > :57:40.these services. They know what they don't step in, the services are
:57:41. > :57:43.likely to go completely. I take my hat off to some of the parish and
:57:44. > :57:46.town councils across Oxfordshire that have stepped up. Like they have
:57:47. > :57:50.done in Carterton, have saved some done in Carterton, have saved some
:57:51. > :57:54.of this excellent provision until a of this excellent provision until a
:57:55. > :57:58.time when we get a Labour government and get more children's centres
:57:59. > :58:04.again. Where is all this money going to come from? We have money for an
:58:05. > :58:06.awful lot of things nationally which we perhaps should be considering
:58:07. > :58:10.whether we should be putting up corporation tax. Whether we should
:58:11. > :58:16.be putting the burden of taxation much more onto those people who can
:58:17. > :58:20.afford it. So that we can fund services in Oxfordshire. We could
:58:21. > :58:27.put another layer on top of the council tax bands but we have got.
:58:28. > :58:32.Oxfordshire has got, people in Oxfordshire are in the largest
:58:33. > :58:36.houses. They have the suggestions here. You would like more money on
:58:37. > :58:41.your budget as well. We are doing well in Portsmouth. We are
:58:42. > :58:44.relatively low tax collecting city in the UK, if you compare our
:58:45. > :58:48.council tax to other such to neighbours like Southampton and
:58:49. > :58:52.Brighton. Portsmouth residents get a very good value for money in terms
:58:53. > :58:58.of our average band big council tax property. We had to take ?9 million
:58:59. > :59:02.out of our budget this year. Because I have been able to generate new
:59:03. > :59:06.income, I have driven a strategy of income generation throughout the
:59:07. > :59:09.county over the last two years, through that and rescheduling of old
:59:10. > :59:13.stats, I have been able to raise ?8.1 million this year and I have
:59:14. > :59:16.only had two passport 900,000 pounds onto front-line services. That has
:59:17. > :59:22.meant that people haven't even noticed it. Rather than investing in
:59:23. > :59:24.Tesco distribution centres in the Midlands, surely you could do with
:59:25. > :59:35.more money from central government from taxation? Absolutely. I don't
:59:36. > :59:37.disagree. If we didn't have a huge national structural deficit into the
:59:38. > :59:43.trillions because of mismanagement of the economy over the previous ten
:59:44. > :59:46.to 15 years, we would get more money. Lack of regulation under a
:59:47. > :59:56.Labour government led the banking crisis. We are where we are. I think
:59:57. > :00:00.this is why councils now need to really focus on how they all use
:00:01. > :00:05.lies the assets we have. You should be working harder, is what she is
:00:06. > :00:09.saying. Oxfordshire County Council has cut ?3 million out of their
:00:10. > :00:15.budgets over this last period of time. 200 million of that did get
:00:16. > :00:20.put back into funding the pressures. You can't get away from your moral
:00:21. > :00:24.obligation to safeguard children, elderly people, to provide care for
:00:25. > :00:28.older people, care for people with disabilities. They are moral
:00:29. > :00:33.obligations as well as financial ones. The supermarket we have bought
:00:34. > :00:37.is paying for my libraries, my school crossing patrol people and my
:00:38. > :00:41.museums and swimming pools. All of my non-statutory services which
:00:42. > :00:44.would have had to close. We have weekly bin collections, one of the
:00:45. > :00:48.only cities now in the UK that is committed to that. I have been able
:00:49. > :00:49.to do that because we are going out and raising money. That's what all
:00:50. > :01:13.councils should be doing. hospital beds. It must keep going.
:01:14. > :01:22.Shaftesbury Avenue store sits our places were collections are being
:01:23. > :01:24.beds, it is about providing care in beds, it is about providing care in
:01:25. > :01:30.a different manner and keeping people at home. The trust that runs
:01:31. > :01:33.mental health services in Sussex than ?6 million on agency nurses
:01:34. > :01:38.this year, early half of the cash went to recruitment agencies.
:01:39. > :01:42.Meanwhile government's plans to tackle childhood obesity need to be
:01:43. > :01:47.strengthened according to a Southampton professor. We need
:01:48. > :01:51.stronger statutory controls. HS2 got the green light but the Transport
:01:52. > :01:56.Secretary emphasised help those on the line. With a new line to best it
:01:57. > :02:02.still too noisy according to locals. It is going to be life changing. ?10
:02:03. > :02:15.million has been spent on noise barriers. All those petitions were
:02:16. > :02:23.saving local services. He must hate getting petitions, don't you? If the
:02:24. > :02:26.recipe from no change, so often. I think it's healthy to have engaged
:02:27. > :02:31.democracy petitions are a good way of people letting decision-makers
:02:32. > :02:36.know how they feel. You quite happy to go against. Anyone can start a
:02:37. > :02:40.petition now and often they do without having the facts. As someone
:02:41. > :02:45.running a City Council, that is often something I have to come
:02:46. > :02:51.against day-to-day. But it is a form of democracy and I welcome increased
:02:52. > :02:57.democracy. Is that the way to do it? I think local people being able to
:02:58. > :03:00.have bad voice is extremely important. And knowing that
:03:01. > :03:05.thing to it is not the same thing to it is not the same
:03:06. > :03:11.necessarily as agreeing with it. Politicians never do what we ask.
:03:12. > :03:16.Appointed Donna makes is that very often people rush to get updates
:03:17. > :03:20.petition when they don't have the full facts. They signed petitions
:03:21. > :03:25.without the full facts. Do your research first. Thank you both. That
:03:26. > :03:30.is the Sunday Politics in the south. Thank you to my guests this week.
:03:31. > :03:31.That is all. You can keep up-to-date with southern politics by reading my
:03:32. > :03:53.blog. Now back to Andrew. Welcome back. Article 50, which
:03:54. > :03:57.triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start
:03:58. > :04:03.negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming
:04:04. > :04:09.week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the
:04:10. > :04:13.headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,
:04:14. > :04:17.my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide
:04:18. > :04:21.one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in
:04:22. > :04:27.the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We
:04:28. > :04:32.will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't
:04:33. > :04:36.think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their
:04:37. > :04:40.boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense
:04:41. > :04:44.that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about
:04:45. > :04:49.Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.
:04:50. > :04:56.The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things
:04:57. > :05:00.will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the
:05:01. > :05:04.Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she
:05:05. > :05:12.was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is
:05:13. > :05:17.talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the
:05:18. > :05:20.Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she
:05:21. > :05:28.made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about
:05:29. > :05:32.right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to
:05:33. > :05:38.micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU
:05:39. > :05:42.nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the
:05:43. > :05:46.main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question
:05:47. > :05:51.of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit
:05:52. > :05:54.process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants
:05:55. > :06:00.to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are
:06:01. > :06:02.looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they
:06:03. > :06:08.could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not
:06:09. > :06:14.prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say
:06:15. > :06:19.yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be
:06:20. > :06:23.enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is
:06:24. > :06:26.dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised
:06:27. > :06:29.something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't
:06:30. > :06:33.think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a
:06:34. > :06:40.great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important
:06:41. > :06:43.thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those
:06:44. > :06:46.committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the
:06:47. > :06:50.next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,
:06:51. > :06:55.indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to
:06:56. > :07:01.let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over
:07:02. > :07:05.the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second
:07:06. > :07:10.chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one
:07:11. > :07:14.we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on
:07:15. > :07:18.this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we
:07:19. > :07:27.did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of
:07:28. > :07:31.the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear
:07:32. > :07:35.to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50
:07:36. > :07:40.so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a
:07:41. > :07:45.brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under
:07:46. > :07:51.Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken
:07:52. > :07:54.Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but
:07:55. > :07:58.they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to
:07:59. > :08:03.trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me
:08:04. > :08:09.show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.
:08:10. > :08:16.That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and
:08:17. > :08:20.within that small group of people is the president of the United States,
:08:21. > :08:26.and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if
:08:27. > :08:30.he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of
:08:31. > :08:36.people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no
:08:37. > :08:39.mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more
:08:40. > :08:46.regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is
:08:47. > :08:52.recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a
:08:53. > :08:56.series of people within the administration. That relationship
:08:57. > :09:00.there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main
:09:01. > :09:06.government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is
:09:07. > :09:13.it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over
:09:14. > :09:17.this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the
:09:18. > :09:21.sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should
:09:22. > :09:25.give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great
:09:26. > :09:29.deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one
:09:30. > :09:32.of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump
:09:33. > :09:36.is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are
:09:37. > :09:41.being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.
:09:42. > :09:45.Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a
:09:46. > :09:48.very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of
:09:49. > :09:53.stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us
:09:54. > :10:01.there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in
:10:02. > :10:04.terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that
:10:05. > :10:10.point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there
:10:11. > :10:18.was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel
:10:19. > :10:22.Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of
:10:23. > :10:26.lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much
:10:27. > :10:30.longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this
:10:31. > :10:34.great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think
:10:35. > :10:39.he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than
:10:40. > :10:50.that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are
:10:51. > :10:57.having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of
:10:58. > :11:02.the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only
:11:03. > :11:07.what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her
:11:08. > :11:12.government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this
:11:13. > :11:17.disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,
:11:18. > :11:21.and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are
:11:22. > :11:25.other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending
:11:26. > :11:29.money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one
:11:30. > :11:34.Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime
:11:35. > :11:40.Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The
:11:41. > :11:43.bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single
:11:44. > :11:47.problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up
:11:48. > :11:52.with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little
:11:53. > :11:56.bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the
:11:57. > :12:00.Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away
:12:01. > :12:04.with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a
:12:05. > :12:08.positive context in some way or another and it is one example of
:12:09. > :12:13.many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion
:12:14. > :12:17.polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister
:12:18. > :12:23.has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget
:12:24. > :12:30.day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the
:12:31. > :12:34.Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12
:12:35. > :12:38.billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates
:12:39. > :12:44.suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.
:12:45. > :12:47.3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability
:12:48. > :12:52.benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it
:12:53. > :12:57.but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money
:12:58. > :12:59.at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will
:13:00. > :13:06.alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple
:13:07. > :13:10.of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not
:13:11. > :13:17.delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the
:13:18. > :13:21.bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks
:13:22. > :13:24.the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when
:13:25. > :13:26.people will feel the cost living squeeze.
:13:27. > :13:30.The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.
:13:31. > :13:32.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:33. > :13:39.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.