:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.The local election results made grim reading for Labour.
:00:44. > :00:47.With just a month to go until the general election,
:00:48. > :00:51.will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help
:00:52. > :00:56.The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,
:00:57. > :00:59.as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got
:01:00. > :01:06.But is there still really all to play for?
:01:07. > :01:10.And tonight we will find out who is the next
:01:11. > :01:14.President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -
:01:15. > :01:18.In the South... ended with a hack attack
:01:19. > :01:20.How did the elections go where you are?
:01:21. > :01:24.We'll have analysis of the results and live debate of what they might
:01:25. > :01:31.potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to
:01:32. > :01:37.evaporate... And joining me for all of that,
:01:38. > :01:41.three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics
:01:42. > :01:44.with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott
:01:45. > :01:47.preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,
:01:48. > :01:50.slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:51. > :01:55.and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,
:01:56. > :02:02.if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales
:02:03. > :02:05.to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more
:02:06. > :02:11.staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -
:02:12. > :02:14.although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary
:02:15. > :02:17.Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new
:02:18. > :02:24.money going into it. In January, we said we were going
:02:25. > :02:27.to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts
:02:28. > :02:31.of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money
:02:32. > :02:35.going into the NHS It's not just of course money,
:02:36. > :02:42.it's having the people who deliver these jobs,
:02:43. > :02:44.which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich
:02:45. > :02:49.by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched
:02:50. > :02:51.their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income
:02:52. > :03:03.tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives
:03:04. > :03:08.putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they
:03:09. > :03:13.have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that
:03:14. > :03:18.the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the
:03:19. > :03:21.start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it
:03:22. > :03:27.would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have
:03:28. > :03:33.already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the
:03:34. > :03:38.expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be
:03:39. > :03:42.about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the
:03:43. > :03:46.government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money
:03:47. > :03:55.going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they
:03:56. > :04:00.would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.
:04:01. > :04:05.Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these
:04:06. > :04:09.claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are
:04:10. > :04:14.prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money
:04:15. > :04:25.problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income
:04:26. > :04:32.tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who
:04:33. > :04:37.consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of
:04:38. > :04:42.income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health
:04:43. > :04:45.care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are
:04:46. > :04:51.describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.
:04:52. > :04:57.So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of
:04:58. > :05:00.bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on
:05:01. > :05:05.your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per
:05:06. > :05:11.week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the
:05:12. > :05:15.longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be
:05:16. > :05:22.able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,
:05:23. > :05:28.around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated
:05:29. > :05:31.NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the
:05:32. > :05:36.Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits
:05:37. > :05:42.further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury
:05:43. > :05:47.has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a
:05:48. > :05:51.small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay
:05:52. > :05:56.extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to
:05:57. > :06:02.their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in
:06:03. > :06:06.terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I
:06:07. > :06:10.said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to
:06:11. > :06:16.pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the
:06:17. > :06:21.fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,
:06:22. > :06:27.Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats
:06:28. > :06:32.pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your
:06:33. > :06:37.pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a
:06:38. > :06:41.tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us
:06:42. > :06:46.in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we
:06:47. > :06:51.prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per
:06:52. > :06:56.week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,
:06:57. > :07:01.in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be
:07:02. > :07:07.available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.
:07:08. > :07:10.An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow
:07:11. > :07:15.the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26
:07:16. > :07:19.weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for
:07:20. > :07:24.private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,
:07:25. > :07:29.because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is
:07:30. > :07:32.increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make
:07:33. > :07:39.very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it
:07:40. > :07:43.looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best
:07:44. > :07:49.you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,
:07:50. > :07:54.which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise
:07:55. > :07:58.people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?
:07:59. > :08:02.I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be
:08:03. > :08:08.straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a
:08:09. > :08:14.Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party
:08:15. > :08:19.state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial
:08:20. > :08:22.Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding
:08:23. > :08:25.of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an
:08:26. > :08:31.effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off
:08:32. > :08:33.stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.
:08:34. > :08:38.Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.
:08:39. > :08:41.Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election
:08:42. > :08:43.result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.
:08:44. > :08:47.Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the
:08:48. > :08:50.Conservatives were heading for a landslide...
:08:51. > :08:53.But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results
:08:54. > :08:56.in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country
:08:57. > :08:59.Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how
:09:00. > :09:03.Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...
:09:04. > :09:09.The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.
:09:10. > :09:13.Early results from the local elections in England suggest
:09:14. > :09:16.there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.
:09:17. > :09:19.While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.
:09:20. > :09:22.Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.
:09:23. > :09:24.The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.
:09:25. > :09:26.But with most councils only getting started,
:09:27. > :09:31.there was plenty of action still to come.
:09:32. > :09:34.It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.
:09:35. > :09:36.There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -
:09:37. > :09:39.looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put
:09:40. > :09:46.But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,
:09:47. > :09:48.the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.
:09:49. > :09:53.How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?
:09:54. > :10:00.Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?
:10:01. > :10:05.We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already
:10:06. > :10:09.in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,
:10:10. > :10:11.I'm scared this will make people think the election's just
:10:12. > :10:15.I think leave it like that - perfect.
:10:16. > :10:17.I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?
:10:18. > :10:22.Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.
:10:23. > :10:27.But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.
:10:28. > :10:38.But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.
:10:39. > :10:45.The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today
:10:46. > :10:47.from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten
:10:48. > :10:51.We will rebrand and come back strong.
:10:52. > :10:56.Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.
:10:57. > :10:59.Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.
:11:00. > :11:02.And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.
:11:03. > :11:05.There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't
:11:06. > :11:08.want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.
:11:09. > :11:11.Ukip press officer. Difficult job.
:11:12. > :11:16.Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.
:11:17. > :11:19.Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,
:11:20. > :11:22.losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.
:11:23. > :11:27.If the result is what these results appear to indicate,
:11:28. > :11:31.Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?
:11:32. > :11:40.A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?
:11:41. > :11:44.Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.
:11:45. > :11:46.He's fired up. We're going to go out there...
:11:47. > :11:49.We cannot go on with another five years of this.
:11:50. > :11:52.How's it been for you today? Tiring.
:11:53. > :11:54.It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.
:11:55. > :11:59.Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,
:12:00. > :12:01.it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls
:12:02. > :12:06.and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.
:12:07. > :12:09.As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,
:12:10. > :12:17.After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came
:12:18. > :12:25.The section of England in which we had elections yesterday
:12:26. > :12:29.was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.
:12:30. > :12:32.When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results
:12:33. > :12:39.The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.
:12:40. > :12:40.There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...
:12:41. > :12:45.Thank you very much but I have one here.
:12:46. > :12:49.With the introduction of six regional mayors,
:12:50. > :12:52.Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.
:12:53. > :12:54.But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor
:12:55. > :13:00.We want you to stay for a second because I've got some
:13:01. > :13:03.I used to present news, as you probably know.
:13:04. > :13:06.I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.
:13:07. > :13:08.The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour
:13:09. > :13:15.What did you prefer - presenting or politics?
:13:16. > :13:21.And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.
:13:22. > :13:26.Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,
:13:27. > :13:27.leaving the Conservatives with their best local
:13:28. > :13:33.So another election results day draws to a close.
:13:34. > :13:36.But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.
:13:37. > :13:38.For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.
:13:39. > :13:51.Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,
:13:52. > :13:53.and what they might mean for the wider fortunes
:13:54. > :14:05.In England, there were elections for 34 councils.
:14:06. > :14:07.The Conservatives took control of ten of them,
:14:08. > :14:09.gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained
:14:10. > :14:14.While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,
:14:15. > :14:19.and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.
:14:20. > :14:21.In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing
:14:22. > :14:24.a third of their seats, and control of three councils -
:14:25. > :14:27.while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.
:14:28. > :14:31.In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,
:14:32. > :14:36.There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party
:14:37. > :14:38.after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,
:14:39. > :14:46.although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.
:14:47. > :14:48.We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.
:14:49. > :14:52.You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.
:14:53. > :15:06.In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the
:15:07. > :15:11.general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May
:15:12. > :15:14.wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning
:15:15. > :15:18.a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local
:15:19. > :15:22.election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win
:15:23. > :15:26.the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course
:15:27. > :15:30.people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were
:15:31. > :15:35.double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas
:15:36. > :15:42.the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point
:15:43. > :15:44.Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a
:15:45. > :15:46.landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in
:15:47. > :15:50.England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative
:15:51. > :15:57.lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that
:15:58. > :16:01.she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about
:16:02. > :16:05.who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but
:16:06. > :16:07.there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves
:16:08. > :16:12.her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The
:16:13. > :16:16.local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is
:16:17. > :16:21.going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most
:16:22. > :16:25.prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep
:16:26. > :16:30.the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary
:16:31. > :16:33.Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election
:16:34. > :16:38.results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I
:16:39. > :16:44.looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the
:16:45. > :16:49.general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both
:16:50. > :16:52.local elections in these years, but come the general election, they
:16:53. > :16:56.added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen
:16:57. > :17:00.again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.
:17:01. > :17:04.Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local
:17:05. > :17:10.elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in
:17:11. > :17:15.1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.
:17:16. > :17:21.In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --
:17:22. > :17:24.their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition
:17:25. > :17:28.campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of
:17:29. > :17:33.Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth
:17:34. > :17:37.noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip
:17:38. > :17:40.voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to
:17:41. > :17:44.increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,
:17:45. > :17:50.the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the
:17:51. > :17:55.party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the
:17:56. > :18:00.Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we
:18:01. > :18:05.should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in
:18:06. > :18:10.the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper
:18:11. > :18:13.forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is
:18:14. > :18:17.producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum
:18:18. > :18:22.has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,
:18:23. > :18:29.the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do
:18:30. > :18:32.you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially
:18:33. > :18:36.disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional
:18:37. > :18:40.question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been
:18:41. > :18:44.faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively
:18:45. > :18:50.disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south
:18:51. > :18:53.of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly
:18:54. > :18:58.the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the
:18:59. > :19:02.leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they
:19:03. > :19:07.will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the
:19:08. > :19:17.remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa
:19:18. > :19:20.May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote
:19:21. > :19:28.has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining
:19:29. > :19:32.us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I
:19:33. > :19:37.wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced
:19:38. > :19:45.fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the
:19:46. > :19:49.centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.
:19:50. > :19:53.That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the
:19:54. > :19:58.argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,
:19:59. > :20:04.Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of
:20:05. > :20:13.the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue
:20:14. > :20:19.vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the
:20:20. > :20:23.spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like
:20:24. > :20:26.Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British
:20:27. > :20:30.politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact
:20:31. > :20:35.what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not
:20:36. > :20:38.something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,
:20:39. > :20:44.when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,
:20:45. > :20:48.dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad
:20:49. > :20:54.spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain
:20:55. > :20:58.have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like
:20:59. > :21:01.they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too
:21:02. > :21:06.small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest
:21:07. > :21:10.thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has
:21:11. > :21:17.limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We
:21:18. > :21:20.don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is
:21:21. > :21:24.some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a
:21:25. > :21:29.realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.
:21:30. > :21:33.Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the
:21:34. > :21:35.disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been
:21:36. > :21:40.saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They
:21:41. > :21:44.still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have
:21:45. > :21:48.picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a
:21:49. > :21:52.strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's
:21:53. > :21:56.very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel
:21:57. > :21:59.that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job
:22:00. > :22:05.done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour
:22:06. > :22:11.Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are
:22:12. > :22:15.shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has
:22:16. > :22:20.produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was
:22:21. > :22:24.called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the
:22:25. > :22:27.Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off
:22:28. > :22:33.editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party
:22:34. > :22:39.united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over
:22:40. > :22:42.Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David
:22:43. > :22:47.Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for
:22:48. > :22:51.this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because
:22:52. > :22:54.it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to
:22:55. > :23:00.take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at
:23:01. > :23:04.a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a
:23:05. > :23:06.united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a
:23:07. > :23:10.long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big
:23:11. > :23:12.campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no
:23:13. > :23:15.income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -
:23:16. > :23:17.which of course means those earning more than that could
:23:18. > :23:19.face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John
:23:20. > :23:29.McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone
:23:30. > :23:33.earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an
:23:34. > :23:36.increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.
:23:37. > :23:41.For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more
:23:42. > :23:45.to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be
:23:46. > :23:52.a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a
:23:53. > :23:55.society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.
:23:56. > :24:00.We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.
:24:01. > :24:06.Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be
:24:07. > :24:11.paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.
:24:12. > :24:18.But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would
:24:19. > :24:24.not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for
:24:25. > :24:28.the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners
:24:29. > :24:32.won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a
:24:33. > :24:36.policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell
:24:37. > :24:43.also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%
:24:44. > :24:48.of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying
:24:49. > :24:54.to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,
:24:55. > :24:57.you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's
:24:58. > :25:03.manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out
:25:04. > :25:12.and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set
:25:13. > :25:15.out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he
:25:16. > :25:21.is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis
:25:22. > :25:27.just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The
:25:28. > :25:32.polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was
:25:33. > :25:37.it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between
:25:38. > :25:42.now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.
:25:43. > :25:47.Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their
:25:48. > :25:57.share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way
:25:58. > :26:03.is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I
:26:04. > :26:08.satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is
:26:09. > :26:12.a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections
:26:13. > :26:16.are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to
:26:17. > :26:21.put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle
:26:22. > :26:27.income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You
:26:28. > :26:32.lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The
:26:33. > :26:36.journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an
:26:37. > :26:41.easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are
:26:42. > :26:44.comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the
:26:45. > :26:49.terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a
:26:50. > :26:53.challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are
:26:54. > :26:55.determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter
:26:56. > :27:03.policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took
:27:04. > :27:09.place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --
:27:10. > :27:15.took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of
:27:16. > :27:20.British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm
:27:21. > :27:25.election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after
:27:26. > :27:30.his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of
:27:31. > :27:35.mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all
:27:36. > :27:40.of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I
:27:41. > :27:44.am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused
:27:45. > :27:49.on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies
:27:50. > :27:54.like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum
:27:55. > :28:00.wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of
:28:01. > :28:03.earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and
:28:04. > :28:07.funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by
:28:08. > :28:12.the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives
:28:13. > :28:18.of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the
:28:19. > :28:23.few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to
:28:24. > :28:27.be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.
:28:28. > :28:31.You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy
:28:32. > :28:37.Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate
:28:38. > :28:40.his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview
:28:41. > :28:44.straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped
:28:45. > :28:50.him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the
:28:51. > :28:56.reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in
:28:57. > :28:59.Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into
:29:00. > :29:04.celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge
:29:05. > :29:07.him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to
:29:08. > :29:11.travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed
:29:12. > :29:16.on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?
:29:17. > :29:21.Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time
:29:22. > :29:27.with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy
:29:28. > :29:35.Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am
:29:36. > :29:39.convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat
:29:40. > :29:45.on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He
:29:46. > :29:49.said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour
:29:50. > :29:56.while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the
:29:57. > :30:00.doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my
:30:01. > :30:04.constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single
:30:05. > :30:10.voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest
:30:11. > :30:14.thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that
:30:15. > :30:18.people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even
:30:19. > :30:23.talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy
:30:24. > :30:30.Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum
:30:31. > :30:32.wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and
:30:33. > :30:36.sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under
:30:37. > :30:39.this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,
:30:40. > :30:45.but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,
:30:46. > :30:49.perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour
:30:50. > :30:52.leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on
:30:53. > :30:58.the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead
:30:59. > :31:02.the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won
:31:03. > :31:09.the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more
:31:10. > :31:13.might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of
:31:14. > :31:17.the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four
:31:18. > :31:21.weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see
:31:22. > :31:26.further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to
:31:27. > :31:29.Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my
:31:30. > :31:33.constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And
:31:34. > :31:37.also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She
:31:38. > :31:44.should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.
:31:45. > :31:48.Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary
:31:49. > :32:01.people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D
:32:02. > :32:08.and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do
:32:09. > :32:11.that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living
:32:12. > :32:15.standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the
:32:16. > :32:19.living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We
:32:20. > :32:21.have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you
:32:22. > :32:24.for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's
:32:25. > :32:30.elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party
:32:31. > :32:32.won its best ever local government performance,
:32:33. > :32:35.but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote
:32:36. > :32:37.plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously
:32:38. > :32:41.benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for
:32:42. > :32:44.the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now
:32:45. > :32:46.by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,
:32:47. > :32:56.Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip
:32:57. > :33:01.finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the
:33:02. > :33:06.Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't
:33:07. > :33:13.it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go
:33:14. > :33:17.out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney
:33:18. > :33:21.war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from
:33:22. > :33:24.Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime
:33:25. > :33:28.Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one
:33:29. > :33:35.of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really
:33:36. > :33:38.looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a
:33:39. > :33:42.lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our
:33:43. > :33:48.part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the
:33:49. > :33:54.moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to
:33:55. > :33:57.shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing
:33:58. > :34:00.on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their
:34:01. > :34:06.minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime
:34:07. > :34:10.Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong
:34:11. > :34:16.in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back
:34:17. > :34:23.her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last
:34:24. > :34:26.week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to
:34:27. > :34:29.bully the British government, in those circumstances the British
:34:30. > :34:35.people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the
:34:36. > :34:38.Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician
:34:39. > :34:42.in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for
:34:43. > :34:47.your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters
:34:48. > :34:52.are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in
:34:53. > :34:55.the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.
:34:56. > :35:01.There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that
:35:02. > :35:05.once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit
:35:06. > :35:11.negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the
:35:12. > :35:14.focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of
:35:15. > :35:20.policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.
:35:21. > :35:24.The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap
:35:25. > :35:27.the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health
:35:28. > :35:33.service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with
:35:34. > :35:37.the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of
:35:38. > :35:41.what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces
:35:42. > :35:45.beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not
:35:46. > :35:51.Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that
:35:52. > :35:56.time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's
:35:57. > :35:59.fault. We have two become more professional than we have been
:36:00. > :36:04.recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or
:36:05. > :36:08.another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very
:36:09. > :36:12.rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other
:36:13. > :36:16.promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not
:36:17. > :36:20.until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not
:36:21. > :36:26.have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this
:36:27. > :36:33.current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most
:36:34. > :36:40.senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --
:36:41. > :36:44.no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I
:36:45. > :36:49.believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is
:36:50. > :36:59.shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital
:37:00. > :37:04.mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto
:37:05. > :37:11.launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but
:37:12. > :37:16.also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity
:37:17. > :37:24.bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies
:37:25. > :37:28.that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.
:37:29. > :37:33.Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory
:37:34. > :37:38.advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that
:37:39. > :37:42.Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?
:37:43. > :37:48.It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and
:37:49. > :37:54.have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.
:37:55. > :37:58.When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.
:37:59. > :38:02.Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.
:38:03. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:06.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:07. > :38:21.Welcome to Sunday Politics South. we'll be talking about the French
:38:22. > :38:24.We're giving over the whole of today's programme
:38:25. > :38:27.to Thursday's local elections - what they meant in themselves
:38:28. > :38:29.and what they might tell us about the next vote along,
:38:30. > :38:32.the general election at the start of next month.
:38:33. > :38:37.We've got a quartet of local politicians here, and it's safe
:38:38. > :38:41.to say their parties had mixed fortunes this week.
:38:42. > :38:44.Keith House is here from the Liberal Democrats,
:38:45. > :38:46.Kim Rose from Ukip, Satvir Kaur from Labour and Louise Goldsmith
:38:47. > :39:02.Before we let them all have at one another, just who won -
:39:03. > :39:07.Here's Ian Paul with a round-up of the results in our region,
:39:08. > :39:09.helped by our local reporters who were out at the counts.
:39:10. > :39:13.It turned out to be a rising blue tide and it started lapping
:39:14. > :39:15.the shorelines of the region in the early hours of Friday
:39:16. > :39:22.in what quickly became a night of lost leaders.
:39:23. > :39:24.By far the biggest surprise of the night here in Dorset
:39:25. > :39:27.was the Conservative leader Robert Gould losing his seat
:39:28. > :39:31.The county remained under Conservative control,
:39:32. > :39:34.with 32 of the 46 seats and a group meeting will elect
:39:35. > :39:38.a new Conservative leader in the next few days.
:39:39. > :39:42.Down two seats overall, but they remain the second-biggest
:39:43. > :39:49.18 months after winning their first-ever seat on the county
:39:50. > :39:52.council in the by-election, they have added another, doubling
:39:53. > :40:06.All eyes here on the Isle of Wight are centred on the battle for power
:40:07. > :40:09.between the independents and the Tories.
:40:10. > :40:11.And just before four o'clock, when the last result was called,
:40:12. > :40:14.it became clear that it was a good night for the Conservatives,
:40:15. > :40:18.who had gained an overall majority, giving the council leader
:40:19. > :40:21.Dave Stewart that majority administration he had
:40:22. > :40:26.The Conservatives' gain was undoubtedly the independents'
:40:27. > :40:29.loss who ended the night with six fewer seats than they started,
:40:30. > :40:33.most notably former leader Jonathan Bacon who resigned
:40:34. > :40:36.from his post as leader in January and tonight finds himself out
:40:37. > :40:41.Our problem with the previous council that it was run as
:40:42. > :40:44.a no-overall-control council and the majority of councillors
:40:45. > :40:48.on the other side eventually chose to abuse that and stop
:40:49. > :40:54.Not much change in Hampshire, where the ruling Conservatives
:40:55. > :41:03.As for Ukip, they lost every single one of the seats
:41:04. > :41:10.The Liberal Democrats seemed happy with their tally,
:41:11. > :41:13.bagging another three seats and crucially, for them,
:41:14. > :41:15.all the wards in the Eastleigh parliamentary constituency,
:41:16. > :41:25.which they are hoping to win back at the general election.
:41:26. > :41:28.Daybreak brought the start of counting in our remaining
:41:29. > :41:31.councils and again, the story as the day wore on was Ukip retreat
:41:32. > :41:35.In West Sussex, Ukip had been the largest opposition party
:41:36. > :41:40.They are not any more, with every single one
:41:41. > :41:43.of their councillors going down to defeat.
:41:44. > :41:45.Yes, today's results are disappointing, but on the big
:41:46. > :41:50.picture, I still think we look back with great victory in our eyes.
:41:51. > :41:53.We have achieved the Brexit vote, nobody else.
:41:54. > :41:58.We still have a purpose, we will carry on fighting.
:41:59. > :42:02.In county after county, the numbers may have been different,
:42:03. > :42:06.Wiltshire, the Conservatives up eight.
:42:07. > :42:18.Buckinghamshire, the Conservatives up five.
:42:19. > :42:26.With 53 council seats up for grabs, the results soon
:42:27. > :42:35.The first big shock, the Conservative deputy leader,
:42:36. > :42:37.Rodney Rose, losing his seat to the Lib Dems.
:42:38. > :42:40.Disappointment for Labour as they lost seats to the Conservatives,
:42:41. > :42:44.They held on to Witney South and Central, a seat they only won
:42:45. > :42:47.Given the success of the Tories nationally, I think Conservatives
:42:48. > :42:50.here will be disappointed they didn't win a majority.
:42:51. > :42:54.That puts them in exactly the same position as four years ago.
:42:55. > :42:57.That time around, they cobbled together
:42:58. > :43:08.I suspect something similar might happen again this time.
:43:09. > :43:22.Cobbling together happening in some places but they result in others.
:43:23. > :43:26.Keith, there was a difference between the Remain and Leave areas.
:43:27. > :43:32.Oxon saw a big advance in the Lib Dem vote and labour staying the
:43:33. > :43:36.same. The Conservatives ended up on a knife edge but still got a seat
:43:37. > :43:44.because there was no Ukip wrote to squeeze. I don't think it was that
:43:45. > :43:49.no clear-cut because Eastleigh, where the Lib Dems won every single
:43:50. > :43:54.warden... You are going to get that in whatever happened! There was a
:43:55. > :44:06.marginal vote for Leave but the Lib Dems vote went up massively. So not
:44:07. > :44:11.about Brexit? Totally mixed trends. Why are you complaining about
:44:12. > :44:15.thinking about Brexit again? We campaign on issues to do with
:44:16. > :44:20.Britain's relationship with the European Union but it was not a
:44:21. > :44:27.major factor in the local elections. That was Theresa May calling a
:44:28. > :44:35.general election and people using their local vote in the way they
:44:36. > :44:42.would use it in a general election. William relieved when the general
:44:43. > :44:43.election was called -- were you relieved when the general election
:44:44. > :44:51.was called? We had a good story to was called? We had a good story to
:44:52. > :44:56.tell, we were proud... But were people voting on local issues? The
:44:57. > :44:58.Lib Dems ran a negative campaign in West Sussex and that did not help
:44:59. > :45:03.them. When I was out canvassing them. When I was out canvassing
:45:04. > :45:07.before the announcement and afterwards, there was a ringing
:45:08. > :45:12.endorsement for Theresa May's decision. More importantly, we had a
:45:13. > :45:16.lot of local issues that were coming up because we did actually go out
:45:17. > :45:21.with a very clear literature on what we had done and people talking about
:45:22. > :45:28.education, supporting the fact that we were continuing to get more money
:45:29. > :45:32.for children's schools, air quality, really good its use. That is
:45:33. > :45:39.excellent for us to year and listen to and act upon. You cleared out
:45:40. > :45:42.every one of the ten Ukip seat, who had been the opposition in West
:45:43. > :45:46.Sussex. Had they been putting up opposition? Several have stood down
:45:47. > :45:53.so they one of running a full field anyway. Do you think some of them
:45:54. > :46:00.were paper candidates in 2013? Certainly, some did not even turn
:46:01. > :46:08.win in Bonner and right across the win in Bonner and right across the
:46:09. > :46:12.Conservative seats. The third Conservative seats. The third
:46:13. > :46:21.largest in the country. But we went out very much on what our record was
:46:22. > :46:29.and what our ambitions were, reflecting our residents' ambitions.
:46:30. > :46:35.Ukip a remarkable story, you get success in the referendum, but is
:46:36. > :46:40.there now no pointy Ukip? No, I don't agree. It's the end of a
:46:41. > :46:44.pressure groups in the history of pressure groups in the history of
:46:45. > :46:50.politics. Theresa May has taken all the best bits as of Ukip and is
:46:51. > :46:53.wearing a purple coat and good luck to her with Brexit and we will
:46:54. > :47:06.support with that and hope we get what we want? . You might as well
:47:07. > :47:11.have not stood in all these places, you might as well have said about
:47:12. > :47:16.Conservative. No, because there are local it seems we are fighting on.
:47:17. > :47:24.You didn't get much support. We didn't have time to put our voice
:47:25. > :47:32.across. We are fighting on IFA two... Tell us what that is? It's
:47:33. > :47:36.about the connection across the Channel, there is a big power
:47:37. > :47:40.station going up. The Tory councillor is not going to go
:47:41. > :47:46.against a Tory council. It needed an opposition candidate to take that
:47:47. > :47:52.forward. But you no longer have Ukip councillors as a county council
:47:53. > :47:55.level, the same thing as likely to happen as a district level because
:47:56. > :48:03.it turns out that your votes were processed modes. At the moment
:48:04. > :48:09.people are going -- words protest votes. At the moment, people aren't
:48:10. > :48:21.going with Theresa May, with the mainstream. I have linked up with
:48:22. > :48:25.John Rhys Evans... What happened to Paul Nuttall, I thought he was
:48:26. > :48:35.leading Ukip can Woods this is the way forward for Ukip. We don't know
:48:36. > :48:40.what might happen to Ukip in the future. Does it suggest to you that
:48:41. > :48:46.it was a protest vote? I think so, we saw that in Hampshire, with Ukip
:48:47. > :48:51.wiped out. But there was no foregone conclusion that Ukip Rose will go to
:48:52. > :48:54.the Conservatives. In places like Eastleigh, their vote went to the
:48:55. > :49:00.Liberal Democrats and they gained Ukip seats. If it was a process
:49:01. > :49:06.mode, surely the opposition should be getting the votes, Labour should
:49:07. > :49:09.be doing better. Where we have local elections, they were an urban places
:49:10. > :49:17.and there are areas where traditionally Labour did not do well
:49:18. > :49:24.in places like Southampton where people may have voted for Ukip.
:49:25. > :49:31.Working-class communities, I come from one, they genuinely care about
:49:32. > :49:37.local issues, the NHS. It feels like Jeremy Corbyn is positioning himself
:49:38. > :49:43.as the man versus the establishment. He is almost copying the Donald
:49:44. > :49:50.Trump approach? I went to the States and fought for Hillary Clinton! I
:49:51. > :49:58.think that across the party, there is a massive feeling for this
:49:59. > :50:02.antiestablishment, having parties that are more relevant to people.
:50:03. > :50:09.Jeremy Corbyn taps into that, that is not a bad thing. -- I think that
:50:10. > :50:13.across the parties, there is this massive feeling for the
:50:14. > :50:24.antiestablishment. Do you except that there were no votes for Labour
:50:25. > :50:31.coming out? We did win in Crawley... Crawley is an example of where we
:50:32. > :50:42.have a really strong... A la Labour ward is really strong. There were
:50:43. > :50:51.boundary reviews right across the county but gossips green, we nearly
:50:52. > :50:56.one that -- we nearly won that. We have made headway. It is about
:50:57. > :50:59.talking and working with your communities and listening to them.
:51:00. > :51:11.That is vital for local politician. Louise, your communities in West
:51:12. > :51:17.Sussex, they were saying to you you do not have any money for roads and
:51:18. > :51:21.education. Your leader is not doing you any favours because her social
:51:22. > :51:27.care policy is going in the manifesto. We have been given ?25
:51:28. > :51:33.million for the next three years to help with adult social care. On
:51:34. > :51:36.school funding, we have not resolved... Your head teachers are
:51:37. > :51:40.saying they might have to send children home! And we are waiting
:51:41. > :51:45.for results of the consultation which ended on the 22nd of March. We
:51:46. > :51:51.now have the general election. We will continue to fight for that
:51:52. > :51:59.fairer funding for our children in schools. I have been working as have
:52:00. > :52:04.all our MPs and it is right for our children in Sussex. The funding
:52:05. > :52:09.schools is a huge issue, but are you just saying we need more money? It
:52:10. > :52:13.is never just about money, it is about management as well. But you
:52:14. > :52:18.can't run public services without money going in. That's why the Lib
:52:19. > :52:23.Dems have made it clear that we are prepared to fund health and social
:52:24. > :52:31.care properly so that we have an NHS that works properly joined up with
:52:32. > :52:40.social care. That is an investment. In Hampshire, we see services being
:52:41. > :52:47.wiped out to a point that season -- that destroys local amenities. The
:52:48. > :52:52.point made by Ukip was a local government needs to be more
:52:53. > :53:01.efficient? Take Louise, you are duplicate payments. This is a story
:53:02. > :53:08.that was reported... You have made a big story, it isn't. This is where a
:53:09. > :53:11.council pays twice for something and doesn't know about it. How can you
:53:12. > :53:21.pay a contractor twice for the same job? Sandra James sent eight samples
:53:22. > :53:25.to an internal audit, seven were approved, ?129,000 of people's money
:53:26. > :53:32.was wasted. How much more to be uncovered? We were reviewing that
:53:33. > :53:41.long before Sandra James came in. We have had consultants going through
:53:42. > :53:49.it. That 129,000 pounds came down to ?50,000. Live on TV, I demand an
:53:50. > :53:55.independent review on this matter. I'm sure we can get the truth out in
:53:56. > :53:59.the end. Ukip made a big deal of it, but it was something that a lot of
:54:00. > :54:05.councils have issues with. You have been in local government a long
:54:06. > :54:09.time, it is difficult to get all the payments... No, it should not be
:54:10. > :54:14.difficult. This is management. If you can't get that right, there is
:54:15. > :54:19.something wrong. I want to defend it, because every county council has
:54:20. > :54:25.huge alleges because there are so many payments. West Sussex council
:54:26. > :54:29.has half a billion coming in, managing that. We had a consultant
:54:30. > :54:33.coming in to review and another consultant coming in where the
:54:34. > :54:37.dispute arose and it was from that dispute that we had some
:54:38. > :54:42.whistle-blowing. We have had another company who have given us a clean
:54:43. > :54:49.bill of health. It sounds like a lot of money has been spent on
:54:50. > :54:53.consultants! Is Welsh show that we were right. There was a point
:54:54. > :54:58.Ukip raised that this you and you Ukip raised that this you and you
:54:59. > :55:02.replied to it. But he was suggesting that less money should be spent on
:55:03. > :55:09.services, don't you want more money to be spent? Absolutely. In
:55:10. > :55:13.Southampton, we had ?100 million cuts and public services are
:55:14. > :55:17.suffering. We have heard that they are fighting for more money.,
:55:18. > :55:22.fighting for this and that. You shouldn't have to fight against your
:55:23. > :55:26.own government. They should support local governments so that we can
:55:27. > :55:29.support the communities we are serving. Adult social care, public
:55:30. > :55:31.health, schooling, these are health, schooling, these are
:55:32. > :55:38.integral parts of communities. integral parts of communities.
:55:39. > :55:43.Libraries as well. The Tories are not doing anything for those
:55:44. > :55:46.have not close one library. We have have not close one library. We have
:55:47. > :55:50.expanded what libraries are doing and they are at the centre of the
:55:51. > :55:55.community. One of the most important things that will happen is more work
:55:56. > :56:02.community. Along with adult social community. Along with adult social
:56:03. > :56:04.care, it is not just about the money. It is important that we line
:56:05. > :56:10.up at the health Department to have up at the health Department to have
:56:11. > :56:15.authorities as efficient? Do people authorities as efficient? Do people
:56:16. > :56:17.really trust Jeremy Corbyn to be as efficient as Theresa May?
:56:18. > :56:25.Absolutely! Al council is efficient. Absolutely! Al council is efficient.
:56:26. > :56:30.We have been in power since 2012 and people have re-elected us because
:56:31. > :56:35.the proof is in the pudding. We have delivered. Things are difficult,
:56:36. > :56:40.schooling, that comes from central government. Locally, all we can do
:56:41. > :56:45.is put a sticking plaster on. Social care, despite the 2%, it is going
:56:46. > :56:52.down a black coal because this government is not addressing the
:56:53. > :56:57.real need. Local government is more efficient than central government,
:56:58. > :57:01.we could agree on that. So if we see a pattern where government continues
:57:02. > :57:05.to centralise and reduced control to local authorities, we will not solve
:57:06. > :57:10.these problems. But they are devolving! Thou not really devolving
:57:11. > :57:16.anything. Very few parts of the south of England have had serious
:57:17. > :57:23.devolution. To join up health and social care, we have to have health
:57:24. > :57:29.service working more closely with local government. It doesn't help
:57:30. > :57:34.the global authorities are making bed blocking worse by not sorting
:57:35. > :57:40.out care packages. There is efficiency matters that local
:57:41. > :57:46.government must do better on. We'll Ukip politicians come up with
:57:47. > :57:53.suggestions for these things? Peter, it would be for Ukip politicians.
:57:54. > :58:01.This time around I know what will happen to Ukip... They going to get
:58:02. > :58:08.a bloodbath. We are still the guard dogs of Brexit. If Theresa May drops
:58:09. > :58:16.her baton Joss once... Using people will come back to you? I'm positive
:58:17. > :58:23.that people would come back to Ukip. Under this new democracy, under this
:58:24. > :58:27.new regime it is an exciting time, it will empower the people and give
:58:28. > :58:33.the silent people a voice. Those that shout the loudest are the less
:58:34. > :58:38.needy. It is the silent people we need to help. You are already
:58:39. > :58:42.standing down and lots of preservatives and -- in lots of
:58:43. > :58:58.scenes where there are Conservative MPs will stop I have given
:58:59. > :59:02.consideration and I... I don't believe Watson Smith has done a lot
:59:03. > :59:07.for the city. I felt that Ukip should stand in as many seats as
:59:08. > :59:13.alliances and. At the end of the alliances and. At the end of the
:59:14. > :59:17.day, users stands for yourself. The candidate in Oxford West and
:59:18. > :59:22.Abingdon, the Green candidate, Aston down to give the Liberal Democrat a
:59:23. > :59:29.clear run at the cooler backward. What you think of that? I think that
:59:30. > :59:34.is so cynical. Residents who voted in, in good faith... That is so
:59:35. > :59:38.cynical. We need to work with our residents and for them to have faith
:59:39. > :59:44.in politicians, and whatever level. I'm not happy with that sort of
:59:45. > :59:48.thing. It's up to individual parties to decide what is in the best
:59:49. > :59:51.interests of their residents. We have seen this pattern before and
:59:52. > :59:55.different points and it is clear that the race is between the
:59:56. > :00:00.Conservatives and other Democrats and if voters get behind the Lib
:00:01. > :00:06.Dems to defeat the Conservatives, that is fine by me. How can we have
:00:07. > :00:11.an effective opposition to hold the Conservative government to account,
:00:12. > :00:19.and Ukip admitting they are not in the race, that is why we need
:00:20. > :00:24.Liberal Democrats in the place... Say you have declared the election
:00:25. > :00:30.over! Always keep fighting. You could stand down? Labour has
:00:31. > :00:35.selected candidate in all seats and win intend to stand in all seats.
:00:36. > :00:38.Now the wonderfully generous BBC have given me my own vehicle to get
:00:39. > :00:41.out and about during this election campaign and it will be
:00:42. > :00:44.Well, it was good enough for Norman Tebbit...
:00:45. > :00:47.My fold-up bicycle will let me get right down to the grassroots
:00:48. > :00:49.of public opinion, and I'll be starting the election cycle -
:00:50. > :00:54.travelling down through Newbury and Andover through
:00:55. > :01:03.Do you know, they actually hired that, rather than bought the bike!
:01:04. > :01:05.And you can watch my reports on South Today.
:01:06. > :01:07.That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks
:01:08. > :01:12.Next week, we'll be out on the road with the first of our election
:01:13. > :01:15.housing associations and investment, but we have run out of time, thank
:01:16. > :01:29.you. Andrew. Four weeks to go until polling day
:01:30. > :01:33.on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the
:01:34. > :01:40.remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just
:01:41. > :01:44.try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important
:01:45. > :01:48.qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal
:01:49. > :01:52.mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get
:01:53. > :01:57.her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own
:01:58. > :02:02.interests and to do with accountability to the country. So
:02:03. > :02:06.clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the
:02:07. > :02:08.polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in
:02:09. > :02:16.terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her
:02:17. > :02:21.leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the
:02:22. > :02:31.basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it
:02:32. > :02:35.safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she
:02:36. > :02:40.is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and
:02:41. > :02:43.what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more
:02:44. > :02:47.because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of
:02:48. > :02:53.whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is
:02:54. > :02:56.yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting
:02:57. > :02:59.debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this
:03:00. > :03:04.ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not
:03:05. > :03:06.know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting
:03:07. > :03:15.herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I
:03:16. > :03:19.would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as
:03:20. > :03:23.possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me
:03:24. > :03:27.about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,
:03:28. > :03:33.is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent
:03:34. > :03:36.speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than
:03:37. > :03:42.Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential
:03:43. > :03:46.candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I
:03:47. > :03:51.hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the
:03:52. > :03:56.parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with
:03:57. > :03:59.her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and
:04:00. > :04:04.embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's
:04:05. > :04:07.unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has
:04:08. > :04:12.done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!
:04:13. > :04:16.But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants
:04:17. > :04:20.the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the
:04:21. > :04:23.Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he
:04:24. > :04:29.was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me
:04:30. > :04:36.as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.
:04:37. > :04:41.Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a
:04:42. > :04:45.lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from
:04:46. > :04:49.reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring
:04:50. > :04:57.economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the
:04:58. > :05:01.Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.
:05:02. > :05:06.This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've
:05:07. > :05:12.been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four
:05:13. > :05:16.years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been
:05:17. > :05:20.waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of
:05:21. > :05:26.thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good
:05:27. > :05:30.interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national
:05:31. > :05:35.campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national
:05:36. > :05:40.media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best
:05:41. > :05:45.interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years
:05:46. > :05:49.ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench
:05:50. > :05:54.position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I
:05:55. > :06:00.think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,
:06:01. > :06:04.he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign
:06:05. > :06:08.is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow
:06:09. > :06:12.Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying
:06:13. > :06:19.with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is
:06:20. > :06:23.it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I
:06:24. > :06:27.could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I
:06:28. > :06:31.am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not
:06:32. > :06:35.feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be
:06:36. > :06:39.very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite
:06:40. > :06:45.the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to
:06:46. > :06:49.what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a
:06:50. > :06:55.horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay
:06:56. > :07:00.on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,
:07:01. > :07:05.that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be
:07:06. > :07:10.the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of
:07:11. > :07:15.reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am
:07:16. > :07:19.saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If
:07:20. > :07:24.they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they
:07:25. > :07:28.live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech
:07:29. > :07:33.after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary
:07:34. > :07:36.defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section
:07:37. > :07:44.of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is
:07:45. > :07:50.Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can
:07:51. > :07:55.say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,
:07:56. > :07:58.even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership
:07:59. > :08:03.contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for
:08:04. > :08:07.one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would
:08:08. > :08:10.still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get
:08:11. > :08:14.rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.
:08:15. > :08:17.Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are
:08:18. > :08:24.made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper
:08:25. > :08:30.Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy
:08:31. > :08:38.was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in
:08:39. > :08:41.demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are
:08:42. > :08:47.not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --
:08:48. > :08:53.the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.
:08:54. > :09:01.There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit
:09:02. > :09:04.Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for
:09:05. > :09:06.France... France has been voting since early
:09:07. > :09:09.this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be
:09:10. > :09:11.the country's next President Just to warn you there are some
:09:12. > :09:15.flashing images coming up. The choice in France
:09:16. > :09:17.is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron
:09:18. > :09:19.and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been
:09:20. > :09:22.casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped
:09:23. > :09:24.a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first
:09:25. > :09:26.round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked
:09:27. > :09:28.by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday
:09:29. > :09:35.evening, just before campaigning officially ended,
:09:36. > :09:37.Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim
:09:38. > :09:42.of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents
:09:43. > :09:44.released online. The Macron team said real documents
:09:45. > :09:47.were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned
:09:48. > :09:50.media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach
:09:51. > :10:00.strict election rules. I'm joined now from
:10:01. > :10:14.Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody
:10:15. > :10:17.told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win
:10:18. > :10:23.pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty
:10:24. > :10:28.comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and
:10:29. > :10:33.right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important
:10:34. > :10:36.to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk
:10:37. > :10:43.of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now
:10:44. > :10:46.20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of
:10:47. > :10:53.error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the
:10:54. > :11:00.polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,
:11:01. > :11:05.and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary
:11:06. > :11:10.elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does
:11:11. > :11:13.not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced
:11:14. > :11:18.difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that
:11:19. > :11:24.right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one
:11:25. > :11:30.half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making
:11:31. > :11:33.clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting
:11:34. > :11:39.him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,
:11:40. > :11:44.the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties
:11:45. > :11:53.keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime
:11:54. > :12:03.Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone
:12:04. > :12:09.who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended
:12:10. > :12:15.that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and
:12:16. > :12:21.has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition
:12:22. > :12:26.Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a
:12:27. > :12:33.night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it
:12:34. > :12:38.all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they
:12:39. > :12:44.let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working
:12:45. > :12:52.and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --
:12:53. > :12:59.debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le
:13:00. > :13:03.Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few
:13:04. > :13:06.hours until the results of the election tonight.
:13:07. > :13:11.And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls
:13:12. > :13:15.will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is
:13:16. > :13:18.going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.
:13:19. > :13:21.The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,
:13:22. > :13:26.And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.
:13:27. > :13:28.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:29. > :14:12.Our crack team of experts use pioneering research
:14:13. > :14:25...to how to help your pet lose weight.
:14:26. > :14:28.She's got right dangly earrings with sausages on them.