:00:37. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:45. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:56.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:57. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:14.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:15. > :01:17.In the South: Paying for adult social care is a massive problem -
:01:18. > :01:20.so how do the political parties reckon they're going to do it?
:01:21. > :01:23.We'll have live debate in half an hour.
:01:24. > :01:33.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:34. > :01:35.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:36. > :01:37.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:38. > :01:42.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:43. > :01:49.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:50. > :01:53.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:54. > :01:59.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:02:00. > :02:02.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:03. > :02:08.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:09. > :02:10.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:11. > :02:15.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:16. > :02:17.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:18. > :02:24.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:25. > :02:27.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:28. > :02:30.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:31. > :02:34.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:35. > :02:37.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:38. > :02:46.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:47. > :02:48.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:49. > :02:52.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:53. > :02:54.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:55. > :02:57.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:58. > :03:04.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:05. > :03:11.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:12. > :03:13.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:14. > :03:16.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:17. > :03:20.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:21. > :03:22.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:23. > :03:24.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:25. > :03:27.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:28. > :03:29.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:30. > :03:37.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:38. > :03:46.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:47. > :03:50.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:51. > :03:53.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:54. > :03:58.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:59. > :04:05.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:06. > :04:11.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:12. > :04:16.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:17. > :04:19.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:20. > :04:24.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:25. > :04:28.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:29. > :04:39.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:40. > :04:42.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:43. > :04:48.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:49. > :04:53.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:54. > :04:56.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:57. > :05:00.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:01. > :05:04.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:05. > :05:10.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:11. > :05:14.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:15. > :05:21.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:22. > :05:25.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:26. > :05:31.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:32. > :05:35.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:36. > :05:40.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:41. > :05:44.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:45. > :05:50.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:51. > :05:52.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:53. > :05:57.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:58. > :06:02.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:03. > :06:06.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:07. > :06:09.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:10. > :06:15.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:16. > :06:19.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:20. > :06:23.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:24. > :06:28.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:29. > :06:33.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:34. > :06:36.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:37. > :06:41.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:42. > :06:49.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:50. > :06:53.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:54. > :07:00.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:01. > :07:04.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:05. > :07:08.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:09. > :07:12.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:13. > :07:20.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:21. > :07:24.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:25. > :07:30.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:31. > :07:34.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:35. > :07:39.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:40. > :07:45.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:46. > :07:51.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:52. > :07:55.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:56. > :07:59.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:08:00. > :08:05.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:06. > :08:10.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:11. > :08:13.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:14. > :08:18.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:19. > :08:23.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:24. > :08:26.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:27. > :08:30.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:31. > :08:33.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:34. > :08:38.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:39. > :08:41.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:42. > :08:45.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:46. > :08:52.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:53. > :08:56.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:57. > :09:01.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:02. > :09:04.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:05. > :09:09.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:10. > :09:14.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:15. > :09:17.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:18. > :09:23.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:24. > :09:27.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:28. > :09:31.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:32. > :09:33.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:34. > :09:39.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:40. > :09:42.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:43. > :09:49.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:50. > :09:55.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:56. > :10:01.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:02. > :10:06.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:07. > :10:12.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:13. > :10:18.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:19. > :10:21.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:22. > :10:26.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:27. > :10:30.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:31. > :10:34.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:35. > :10:40.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:41. > :10:43.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:44. > :10:47.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:48. > :10:52.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:53. > :10:55.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:56. > :10:58.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:59. > :11:00.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:01. > :11:01.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:02. > :11:04.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:05. > :11:07.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:08. > :11:09.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:10. > :11:23.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:24. > :11:28.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:29. > :11:31.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:32. > :11:38.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:39. > :11:42.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:43. > :11:45.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:46. > :11:47.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:48. > :11:49.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:50. > :11:58.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:59. > :12:01.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:02. > :12:05.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:06. > :12:10.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:11. > :12:14.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:15. > :12:21.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:22. > :12:25.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:26. > :12:29.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:30. > :12:38.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:39. > :12:41.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:42. > :12:46.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:47. > :12:56.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:57. > :13:00.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:01. > :13:04.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:05. > :13:07.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:08. > :13:14.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:15. > :13:18.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:19. > :13:22.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:23. > :13:29.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:30. > :13:34.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:35. > :13:39.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:40. > :13:45.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:46. > :13:48.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:49. > :13:55.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:56. > :13:59.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:14:00. > :14:03.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:04. > :14:08.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:09. > :14:13.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:14. > :14:19.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:20. > :14:24.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:25. > :14:29.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:30. > :14:34.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:35. > :14:38.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:39. > :14:43.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:44. > :14:48.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:49. > :14:52.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:53. > :14:57.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:58. > :15:03.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:04. > :15:06.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:07. > :15:10.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:11. > :15:15.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:16. > :15:20.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:21. > :15:25.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:26. > :15:33.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:34. > :15:38.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:39. > :15:42.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:43. > :15:47.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:48. > :15:51.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:52. > :15:55.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:56. > :16:00.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:01. > :16:04.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:05. > :16:07.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:08. > :16:12.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:13. > :16:15.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:16. > :16:20.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:21. > :16:21.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:22. > :16:30.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:31. > :16:34.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:35. > :16:39.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:40. > :16:49.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:50. > :16:54.Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with
:16:55. > :16:59.Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket
:17:00. > :17:03.it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn
:17:04. > :17:07.will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.
:17:08. > :17:13.If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,
:17:14. > :17:19.or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out
:17:20. > :17:22.what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the
:17:23. > :17:27.devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism
:17:28. > :17:31.by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have
:17:32. > :17:38.been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that
:17:39. > :17:41.is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the
:17:42. > :17:46.MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as
:17:47. > :17:50.Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being
:17:51. > :17:55.done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism
:17:56. > :17:59.and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of
:18:00. > :18:03.terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there
:18:04. > :18:16.were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more
:18:17. > :18:18.security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable
:18:19. > :18:20.with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is
:18:21. > :18:24.complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do
:18:25. > :18:39.it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder
:18:40. > :18:42.of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he
:18:43. > :18:48.mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of
:18:49. > :18:52.Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is
:18:53. > :18:57.responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and
:18:58. > :19:03.something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said
:19:04. > :19:17.the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,
:19:18. > :19:21.he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he
:19:22. > :19:25.didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a
:19:26. > :19:29.Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that
:19:30. > :19:33.day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did
:19:34. > :19:38.we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows
:19:39. > :19:40.Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party
:19:41. > :19:45.politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.
:19:46. > :19:47.Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission
:19:48. > :19:50.The party says it will identify extremism, including
:19:51. > :19:52.the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.
:19:53. > :19:54.Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,
:19:55. > :19:56.has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror
:19:57. > :19:58.online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.
:19:59. > :20:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about
:20:13. > :20:17.social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down
:20:18. > :20:21.extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look
:20:22. > :20:25.at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not
:20:26. > :20:30.sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can
:20:31. > :20:35.put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article
:20:36. > :20:40.in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are
:20:41. > :20:45.not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime
:20:46. > :20:48.Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think
:20:49. > :20:55.there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned
:20:56. > :20:59.the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is
:21:00. > :21:03.action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the
:21:04. > :21:09.newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what
:21:10. > :21:13.powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down
:21:14. > :21:17.this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we
:21:18. > :21:23.have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we
:21:24. > :21:29.cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my
:21:30. > :21:34.department over in the United States with American officials working with
:21:35. > :21:40.CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The
:21:41. > :21:44.best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to
:21:45. > :21:50.change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you
:21:51. > :21:54.are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line
:21:55. > :22:00.of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence
:22:01. > :22:04.they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election
:22:05. > :22:08.was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have
:22:09. > :22:14.evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being
:22:15. > :22:17.difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not
:22:18. > :22:21.only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow
:22:22. > :22:24.this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make
:22:25. > :22:30.the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be
:22:31. > :22:35.taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across
:22:36. > :22:40.social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same
:22:41. > :22:44.end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate
:22:45. > :22:50.preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is
:22:51. > :22:54.this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies
:22:55. > :23:00.take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could
:23:01. > :23:05.show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from
:23:06. > :23:09.internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often
:23:10. > :23:13.the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the
:23:14. > :23:19.algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered
:23:20. > :23:25.to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how
:23:26. > :23:34.they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the
:23:35. > :23:38.path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a
:23:39. > :23:45.practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that
:23:46. > :23:49.sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions
:23:50. > :23:55.about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down
:23:56. > :24:01.the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the
:24:02. > :24:04.work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for
:24:05. > :24:09.example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of
:24:10. > :24:13.seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by
:24:14. > :24:17.captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not
:24:18. > :24:23.acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a
:24:24. > :24:28.politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite
:24:29. > :24:33.menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That
:24:34. > :24:37.includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So
:24:38. > :24:42.I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is
:24:43. > :24:46.the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much
:24:47. > :24:50.progress you can make. The Government says there are up to
:24:51. > :24:57.23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those
:24:58. > :25:08.posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty
:25:09. > :25:12.disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester
:25:13. > :25:15.shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge
:25:16. > :25:22.we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is
:25:23. > :25:25.powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have
:25:26. > :25:31.increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers
:25:32. > :25:38.of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...
:25:39. > :25:42.Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have
:25:43. > :25:49.increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from
:25:50. > :25:58.?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number
:25:59. > :26:03.of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the
:26:04. > :26:08.resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and
:26:09. > :26:12.time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your
:26:13. > :26:18.disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced
:26:19. > :26:23.in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only
:26:24. > :26:33.seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It
:26:34. > :26:37.is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away
:26:38. > :26:46.people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I
:26:47. > :26:49.cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding
:26:50. > :26:53.their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of
:26:54. > :27:01.citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because
:27:02. > :27:04.of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more
:27:05. > :27:13.powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?
:27:14. > :27:19.Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other
:27:20. > :27:22.measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,
:27:23. > :27:29.that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.
:27:30. > :27:33.Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the
:27:34. > :27:40.court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict
:27:41. > :27:44.people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people
:27:45. > :27:52.safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I
:27:53. > :27:55.tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be
:27:56. > :28:00.struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy
:28:01. > :28:04.is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get
:28:05. > :28:09.the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If
:28:10. > :28:14.we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that
:28:15. > :28:17.allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and
:28:18. > :28:23.intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.
:28:24. > :28:34.Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --
:28:35. > :28:36.thank you. The revelation that the Manchester
:28:37. > :28:44.suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this
:28:45. > :28:46.country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's
:28:47. > :28:48.counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two
:28:49. > :28:51.people who've spent their careers investigating
:28:52. > :28:53.radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,
:28:54. > :28:54.of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle
:28:55. > :28:57.for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism
:28:58. > :28:58.organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take
:28:59. > :29:01.on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.
:29:02. > :29:05.First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,
:29:06. > :29:10.all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon
:29:11. > :29:28.response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse
:29:29. > :29:31.to accurately identify the sources of the problem,
:29:32. > :29:33.and polite society This country gave asylum to
:29:34. > :29:40.the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity
:29:41. > :29:44.by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this
:29:45. > :29:51.country had given him. We need to think far more
:29:52. > :29:55.deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't
:29:56. > :29:58.have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem
:29:59. > :30:05.because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw
:30:06. > :30:09.any lessons from this? For the time being, the game
:30:10. > :30:18.is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within
:30:19. > :30:21.the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British
:30:22. > :30:25.officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis
:30:26. > :30:29.and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme
:30:30. > :30:35.versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we
:30:36. > :30:45.became serious too. Islamist extremism is
:30:46. > :30:53.flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,
:30:54. > :30:59.so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those
:31:00. > :31:03.Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,
:31:04. > :31:07.discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored
:31:08. > :31:12.by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural
:31:13. > :31:15.sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some
:31:16. > :31:18.of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers
:31:19. > :31:27.tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds
:31:28. > :31:30.of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter
:31:31. > :31:34.challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,
:31:35. > :31:40.which includes opposition I've seen politicians
:31:41. > :31:44.and charities partner with and support some of these
:31:45. > :31:49.voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups
:31:50. > :31:55.will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,
:31:56. > :31:59.in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not
:32:00. > :32:06.to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,
:32:07. > :32:16.it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those
:32:17. > :32:29.who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray
:32:30. > :32:33.join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did
:32:34. > :32:40.you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.
:32:41. > :32:44.Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this
:32:45. > :32:48.atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He
:32:49. > :32:53.was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student
:32:54. > :32:58.leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter
:32:59. > :33:04.extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did
:33:05. > :33:09.this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism
:33:10. > :33:15.policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger
:33:16. > :33:21.problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them
:33:22. > :33:29.to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which
:33:30. > :33:35.discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you
:33:36. > :33:39.discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be
:33:40. > :33:45.held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from
:33:46. > :33:49.I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined
:33:50. > :33:53.Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the
:33:54. > :34:01.forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider
:34:02. > :34:04.counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has
:34:05. > :34:09.flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal
:34:10. > :34:13.ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of
:34:14. > :34:16.people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of
:34:17. > :34:19.people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been
:34:20. > :34:24.quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.
:34:25. > :34:27.Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the
:34:28. > :34:32.comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that
:34:33. > :34:35.we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood
:34:36. > :34:42.give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less
:34:43. > :34:46.Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the
:34:47. > :34:50.middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the
:34:51. > :34:53.beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security
:34:54. > :34:59.simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with
:35:00. > :35:03.Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th
:35:04. > :35:08.century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror
:35:09. > :35:11.organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,
:35:12. > :35:15.but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the
:35:16. > :35:19.faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror
:35:20. > :35:25.organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a
:35:26. > :35:31.caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights
:35:32. > :35:36.culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to
:35:37. > :35:39.counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history
:35:40. > :35:44.of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they
:35:45. > :35:47.have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply
:35:48. > :35:54.resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But
:35:55. > :35:57.they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds
:35:58. > :36:01.of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they
:36:02. > :36:12.found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more
:36:13. > :36:16.Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything
:36:17. > :36:20.we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale
:36:21. > :36:25.of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter
:36:26. > :36:29.radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had
:36:30. > :36:35.with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a
:36:36. > :36:40.hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,
:36:41. > :36:46.gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?
:36:47. > :36:51.The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.
:36:52. > :36:56.We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we
:36:57. > :37:04.are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to
:37:05. > :37:09.challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to
:37:10. > :37:13.counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough
:37:14. > :37:20.work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away
:37:21. > :37:26.people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we
:37:27. > :37:31.do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average
:37:32. > :37:37.Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up
:37:38. > :37:42.our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government
:37:43. > :37:45.money and you are an institution like Salford University you should
:37:46. > :37:50.be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security
:37:51. > :37:55.measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human
:37:56. > :37:58.rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.
:37:59. > :38:04.We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This
:38:05. > :38:07.is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the
:38:08. > :38:15.Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.
:38:16. > :38:20.One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of
:38:21. > :38:24.it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term
:38:25. > :38:29.Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive
:38:30. > :38:33.trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to
:38:34. > :38:39.counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a
:38:40. > :38:42.collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push
:38:43. > :38:46.back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.
:38:47. > :38:49.We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending
:38:50. > :38:51.absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very
:38:52. > :38:52.much. It's just gone 11.35,
:38:53. > :38:54.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:55. > :38:57.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:58. > :39:05.minutes, the Week Ahead. Welcome to Sunday Politics South -
:39:06. > :39:10.my name's Peter Henley. Less than a fortnight to polling day
:39:11. > :39:13.now, and we've gathered together a group of candidates
:39:14. > :39:18.from Hampshire this week. Bob Seely from the Conservatives,
:39:19. > :39:21.Judith Bunting from the Liberal Democrats,
:39:22. > :39:24.Malcolm Jones from UKIP, Rosie Pearce from the Green Party,
:39:25. > :39:39.and Alan Whitehead from Labour. Obviously we are all thinking about
:39:40. > :39:46.Manchester, and that pours in campaigning. Allen, is it the wrong
:39:47. > :39:53.time to talk about terrorism and solutions? Well, we're still in the
:39:54. > :40:00.process obviously of coming to the General Election last lap, and what
:40:01. > :40:04.I hope will happen as far as talking about it is concerned is that it is
:40:05. > :40:10.done in a way that gives us proper ways forward for the future, and is
:40:11. > :40:16.not caught up in sloganeering and the instant sound bite but
:40:17. > :40:21.unfortunately characterising a lot -- capitalises a lot of elections
:40:22. > :40:27.these days. So we need to think about it seriously, and rationally,
:40:28. > :40:31.calmly and preferably when the election is over. So talking about
:40:32. > :40:36.cuts to policing...? Oh, no, the cuts to policing...? Oh, no, the
:40:37. > :40:42.question of what we need to do is an essential issue, but what I want to
:40:43. > :40:48.make sure we do is that when we are thinking about where we go for the
:40:49. > :40:53.future, it is done soberly, properly and clearly, and the question of
:40:54. > :40:56.police resources for example is one of those sober calculation is that
:40:57. > :41:01.needs to be taken in terms of what we do for the future. Because it is
:41:02. > :41:06.quite clear in terms of the police cuts that have taken place over the
:41:07. > :41:10.last few years, the police are not really in a position to do the sort
:41:11. > :41:14.of things we want them to do for the future, if we are to get a long-term
:41:15. > :41:18.policy in place to make sure that the terrorist threats are counted in
:41:19. > :41:23.an effective and long-term, sustainable way. Bob Seely, is that
:41:24. > :41:28.something people will be considering when they vote? They may well do.
:41:29. > :41:33.When it comes to your original question, I think that we live in a
:41:34. > :41:39.free society and we always need to be discussing and debating, and you
:41:40. > :41:48.should always do so in a measured and considered way. And not to score
:41:49. > :41:54.points. So I agree with some of the things that Alan was saying. I think
:41:55. > :42:03.the police line is a bit premature, and there have been 1900 more jobs
:42:04. > :42:08.in MI5, MI6 and GCHQ 's -- GCHQ. We are investing in quite a lot --
:42:09. > :42:13.investing quite a lot in those agencies. I don't think your leader
:42:14. > :42:20.has been hugely supportive of that. Michael Fallon has said Jeremy
:42:21. > :42:25.Corbyn is doing the country down talking about police cuts. I think
:42:26. > :42:29.he's probably got quite a good point, I watched Andrew Neil's
:42:30. > :42:38.interview with Jeremy Corbyn, it was pretty damning. But again, this was
:42:39. > :42:46.ten, 15 years ago, the things he did in the past, we are talking about
:42:47. > :42:49.different forms of terrorism. Judith Bunting, do you think that that sort
:42:50. > :42:53.of debate is the right sort of want to be having at the moment about
:42:54. > :43:02.Jeremy Corbyn's links, supposedly, with the IRA? Frankly we need to be
:43:03. > :43:06.looking ahead to combating police cuts. Because as you said, there is
:43:07. > :43:10.nothing going to happen if the police are not equipped to manage.
:43:11. > :43:17.So we are putting forward a proposal -- a policy for an additional 300
:43:18. > :43:24.million a year for them to decide what we are fighting, and if it
:43:25. > :43:28.needs to be targeted at fighting terrorism, and increasing community
:43:29. > :43:36.inclusion, we have in Newbury really good community relations, and last
:43:37. > :43:39.weekend I was at an event held by the Bangladeshi centre, and our
:43:40. > :43:44.police whether eating chicken and beans with the local Indian
:43:45. > :43:48.community. They were not there in a pompous policing way, it needs
:43:49. > :43:54.resource in, and winner to put the resources in. Matt Jones, is that
:43:55. > :44:00.the way forward, eating chicken? I think the police need to pay a wider
:44:01. > :44:08.part in community. We do not see police on the beat any more. When I
:44:09. > :44:11.was a kid there were more round. But Suzanne Evans and your party have
:44:12. > :44:14.raised the question is about community relations in a much more
:44:15. > :44:19.fundamental way. Do you think Ukip ought to be making that point
:44:20. > :44:27.strongly between now and polling day? Yes, and I think we need to be
:44:28. > :44:31.looking at a cross-party agreement at how we go forward to tackle this
:44:32. > :44:35.problem. I think it is important that one party doesn't do it for
:44:36. > :44:43.five years, and then all that is ditched and we have to do it all
:44:44. > :44:46.again. Alan, the comments you made were a little bit different to what
:44:47. > :44:51.Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of by Bob here as well. Do you think it is
:44:52. > :44:57.right that he is being attacked in the way he is, rather than there
:44:58. > :45:01.being cross-party agreement? The way he is being attacked is precisely
:45:02. > :45:06.the sort of sloganeering that I drew attention to. And actually has no
:45:07. > :45:12.bearing on what we actually -- need to think about. These are
:45:13. > :45:16.fundamental questions for a Prime Minister. Yes indeed, but the
:45:17. > :45:21.question of what we do in the long-term is something that an
:45:22. > :45:28.entire Government has to think about, and an entire Government
:45:29. > :45:35.which is able to put forward policies which, among other things,
:45:36. > :45:40.make sure we've got the resources to deal with the issue, and make sure
:45:41. > :45:45.we've got the community cohesion which also needs resources, to make
:45:46. > :45:50.sure that the issue is put properly on the sidelines of mainstream
:45:51. > :45:55.thinking and mainstream discussion in the way that it should be. So
:45:56. > :46:04.there's a lot to do, but in this to be done soberly and carefully. Alan,
:46:05. > :46:09.let's use that freedom constructively. We are making a
:46:10. > :46:13.serious comment about Jeremy Corbyn's record in never voting for
:46:14. > :46:16.some of the measures that both new Labour and the Conservatives have
:46:17. > :46:22.done to try and improve our security. He has always voted
:46:23. > :46:25.against it, in the same way that SDLP and senior members in Northern
:46:26. > :46:30.Ireland said he supported the IRA and not the peace process. But is
:46:31. > :46:35.this something we should be talking about right now when people are
:46:36. > :46:39.grieving? I think there is a danger for people to forego their
:46:40. > :46:43.fundamental rights. When we talk about security we say it is bad that
:46:44. > :46:48.people are not voting for security measures, and yes, we do indeed take
:46:49. > :46:51.some measures to ensure security in the country, but we also need to
:46:52. > :46:57.focus on community cohesion, make sure our voices are included, we
:46:58. > :47:02.cannot just talk about... Lots of people are referring to Muslims
:47:03. > :47:10.here, we cannot talk about Muslims with no Muslims at the table. But
:47:11. > :47:14.Ukip have stirred up so much hate in the country. After Brexit we had
:47:15. > :47:19.more -- a surge in hate crime against minorities. And I don't
:47:20. > :47:25.think it is fair for you to stand there and say, support the
:47:26. > :47:31.committees... It is the media that stir up hatred crimes, and we have
:47:32. > :47:40.been branded really badly. I actually spent nine years teaching
:47:41. > :47:43.diversity in equality courses. Let's not have stereotypes in any way with
:47:44. > :47:44.your party or the media or anyone else.
:47:45. > :47:47.Before the Manchester bombing, much of the political debate
:47:48. > :47:50.was centring around adult social care and how we pay for what's only
:47:51. > :47:53.going to become more of an issue as the population lives longer
:47:54. > :47:55.and the number of older people gets bigger.
:47:56. > :47:58.Before we let the politicians loose on it, we went out to Petersfield
:47:59. > :48:00.in Hampshire to see what some of the voters there thought
:48:01. > :48:05.about the issue, and what they'd heard from the politicians so far.
:48:06. > :48:12.They've decimated the community nursing service.
:48:13. > :48:15.And now I'm getting old, what's going to happen?
:48:16. > :48:20.Well, we actually have a grandmother,
:48:21. > :48:24.her great-grandmother, that's in care, and I don't agree
:48:25. > :48:27.that she should sell her house to pay for her own care.
:48:28. > :48:32.She's paid for her house all her life, so...
:48:33. > :48:36.I think there should be something in place for adults, without them
:48:37. > :48:42.We've all got to pay so much, let's face it, you know,
:48:43. > :48:45.But I don't think you should lose everything.
:48:46. > :48:49.Especially with the part of the world we live in,
:48:50. > :48:58.Double that figure, maybe 250 would be a correct figure.
:48:59. > :49:00.I've talked about it to my older friends,
:49:01. > :49:03.and they all seem to think, you know, you do all your work and
:49:04. > :49:06.get your house, pay your mortgage, all the rest of it...
:49:07. > :49:10.And we'd like to leave a little to our children.
:49:11. > :49:15.I'm nearly 80, so I really do need to know.
:49:16. > :49:18.You know, people that have fought in both world wars have to then sell
:49:19. > :49:21.everything they've worked for all their life, all the taxes
:49:22. > :49:23.that they've paid all their life, just to keep in some
:49:24. > :49:30.I think if you ask any member of the public, any age,
:49:31. > :49:45.And they shouldn't pay for it at all.
:49:46. > :49:51.Clearly a lot of sympathy for people who have paid all their lives. Where
:49:52. > :49:55.should the money be coming from to pay for adult social care? We want
:49:56. > :50:03.to follow the recommendations of the Dilnot Report, and that's what the
:50:04. > :50:10.Tories threw out. They have done a U-turn. They are not being clear on
:50:11. > :50:16.the cap, and if you look at the Royal Borough of Maidenhead, where
:50:17. > :50:22.Theresa May actually stands, if you have a couple in a house and one of
:50:23. > :50:26.them goes into residential care, they use the value of the house to
:50:27. > :50:31.pay for that care. When that person in the care home dies, the other
:50:32. > :50:36.one, who is still living in the house, has a debt, and the interest
:50:37. > :50:42.rate on that rockets to 8% a year. So that individual left in the house
:50:43. > :50:45.has to sell the house, pay a mega- debt and cannot look after
:50:46. > :50:51.themselves in the way they see fit. And that is a Tory policy which is
:50:52. > :50:55.already in action in Maidenhead. If Theresa May wants the rest of the
:50:56. > :51:01.country to go that way, I think it is shameful. I think there are a lot
:51:02. > :51:06.of scare stories about this. Currently, under the current system,
:51:07. > :51:13.you have to get down to your last ?23,000 before the State stops
:51:14. > :51:17.taking your money for care. But they want to take the money for your
:51:18. > :51:22.house? If you are by yourself, you will have to sell your home, and you
:51:23. > :51:26.are done to your last 23,000 before the state stops taking money and
:51:27. > :51:30.starts to pay for your nursing home or your care costs. Under the system
:51:31. > :51:34.that we've announced, which will be reviewed after the election, you are
:51:35. > :51:40.guaranteed 100,000. You're guaranteed four times the amount. In
:51:41. > :51:45.a macro is there a commitment to that in your manifesto? -- is there
:51:46. > :51:55.a commitment to that in your manifesto? This will have to raise
:51:56. > :51:58.more money... It will raise more money, what it? Whatever the changes
:51:59. > :52:07.that are developed after the election before. There are going to
:52:08. > :52:16.be 2 million more people off -- over 75. Let me give you an example, I
:52:17. > :52:21.was out doorknocking, and I had an elderly gentleman who said, I saved
:52:22. > :52:26.up for five years to pay for my home. And he didn't like the policy
:52:27. > :52:30.at first and I hope I persuaded him, and I said to him, there are young
:52:31. > :52:34.people now who have saved up for ten and 15 and 20 years. They don't have
:52:35. > :52:39.a hope in hell of paying for their own home. We need to find a way of
:52:40. > :52:44.making the system fair for you, but also fell for the youngsters who are
:52:45. > :52:48.in 25 grand a year or 30 grand year jobs, and they look at house prices
:52:49. > :52:53.going up incrementally every year. What we are doing is called
:52:54. > :52:56.leadership. Everybody else is attacking us, but we have to take
:52:57. > :53:00.responsibility for the country and the bigger picture, and look after
:53:01. > :53:14.the older generation. -- younger generation. But just because the
:53:15. > :53:18.Tories are horrible for older people doesn't mean they are good for
:53:19. > :53:22.younger people. Just like health care, social care is something we
:53:23. > :53:25.all might need during our lives, let's not forget a third of people
:53:26. > :53:30.who are currently receiving help from the Government on paying for
:53:31. > :53:38.social care are disabled, not necessarily older people. So these
:53:39. > :53:44.people... It could be any of us... I am in a lot of debt for my tuition
:53:45. > :53:49.fees. Do you know how many billions we pay a year just paying interest
:53:50. > :53:54.rates on the national debt. You shouldn't have let it keep on
:53:55. > :54:00.growing. 39 billion a year just on interest payments... We need to run
:54:01. > :54:13.the country for the future, without loading up dead on our youngsters.
:54:14. > :54:18.?350 million on a department for ?350 million on a department for
:54:19. > :54:22.exiting the European Union. It is leading us off a cliff edge. You
:54:23. > :54:29.have been in Parliament watching the debt being paid off. It seems it is
:54:30. > :54:34.what people still want, they don't want to spend a lot more in taxes,
:54:35. > :54:38.but they do want proper adult social care. Yes, they do, and the debate
:54:39. > :54:45.we are having at the moment is about a reversal of what had previously
:54:46. > :54:52.been the idea that there should be a universal payment, paid by
:54:53. > :54:56.everybody, to progress social care, and the true scandal of this policy
:54:57. > :55:01.change that is being undertaken at the moment is that people in their
:55:02. > :55:10.own homes are going to be paying with their own homes, for their own
:55:11. > :55:16.care. But that happens at the moment... The policy has changed, it
:55:17. > :55:19.is quite specifically set out in the Conservative manifesto, and it is
:55:20. > :55:23.really rather write that anyone who even quotes the Conservative
:55:24. > :55:28.manifesto is being told they are putting scare stories are in, well,
:55:29. > :55:33.it is scary, but it is in the manifesto, which is a change away
:55:34. > :55:38.from just requiring people who are in residential care to pay, but
:55:39. > :55:42.people who are in their own homes to pay, an entirely different way of
:55:43. > :55:49.doing domiciliary care about was the case in the past. -- than was the
:55:50. > :55:54.case. What we need to do for the future is make sure we have a
:55:55. > :55:58.socialised system across the board, but domiciliary and residential
:55:59. > :56:02.care, when it all jointly pay what yes, is going to be a cost, but is
:56:03. > :56:07.going to be a cost which is going to be very important in terms of that
:56:08. > :56:13.huge modern -- -- number of elderly people coming forward. Malcolm, I
:56:14. > :56:23.haven't heard from you. In a macro I think it is wrong people should have
:56:24. > :56:27.to sell their homes. People in our part of the world, the equity they
:56:28. > :56:31.have gained, you would let them keep the whole lot? Yellow macro yes,
:56:32. > :56:36.because we are good to put in ?2 billion from the foreign aid budget.
:56:37. > :56:43.Yellow macro if we look at savings within the NHS, we need to audit the
:56:44. > :56:46.management structure, why do we have people who run the NHS Trust being
:56:47. > :57:03.paid more than Theresa May gets paid to run the country? If we bring
:57:04. > :57:04.efficiencies in, if we... You are going to kill the salaries of NHS
:57:05. > :57:17.managers? Let's pause for a second. We hear a lot about
:57:18. > :57:19.what the politicians think are the answers -
:57:20. > :57:21.but what might the voters come Some of the people we met
:57:22. > :57:25.in Petersfield earlier in the week had some ideas for ways we might do
:57:26. > :57:28.it all rather differently. In Germany what they do is,
:57:29. > :57:31.actually as you work, not only do you pay the NHS
:57:32. > :57:33.contribution but you also pay But later on, if you require care,
:57:34. > :57:38.you can actually get money from the state to pay
:57:39. > :57:40.towards your care. Well, I've always thought that
:57:41. > :57:43.people who are in work, if they were asked to pay ?5 extra
:57:44. > :57:46.a month to invest in the NHS and elderly health care,
:57:47. > :57:52.then I think most people would be I think our systems are underfunded,
:57:53. > :57:58.and they need to look at more innovative ways of funding them
:57:59. > :58:01.instead of letting them There's a lot of older people
:58:02. > :58:04.who are still mobile enough, and still able to care
:58:05. > :58:07.for themselves, but they're really There's lots of big houses in this
:58:08. > :58:11.country with one or two people living in them -
:58:12. > :58:14.why not find a way of getting older It sounds crazy, but house-sharing
:58:15. > :58:17.for older people, it would be, you know, a team effort for a whole
:58:18. > :58:20.world of, you know, of their little environment -
:58:21. > :58:22.for their housework, for their gardening, you know -
:58:23. > :58:25.and they would have company, Share their, you know,
:58:26. > :58:28.experience together, of life, rather than all living in little
:58:29. > :58:46.houses by themselves. Rosie, what are you putting forward
:58:47. > :58:54.on social care? A nationalised system that is free at the point of
:58:55. > :58:58.delivery. We need to refinance the care system at the moment, which is
:58:59. > :59:03.failing largely due to cuts to local authority money, so we want to put
:59:04. > :59:07.?1 billion into social care over the next five years. That money will
:59:08. > :59:14.come from general taxation. -- eight billion pounds. We want in the
:59:15. > :59:18.longer term to make sure we have a national care service, similar in
:59:19. > :59:24.scope to our National Health Service, so that we actually have an
:59:25. > :59:28.all enveloping care service, which is essentially free when people need
:59:29. > :59:38.it, with contributions when they can afford it. We are looking at a fully
:59:39. > :59:43.funded social care service, that -- people within it are not in zero
:59:44. > :59:48.hours contract. They are treated disgustingly. I want for seven years
:59:49. > :59:52.on a zero hours contract for the TUC of all people, and it is disgraceful
:59:53. > :00:00.that people are suffering when they are trying to help other people.
:00:01. > :00:08.Judith, the Liberal Democrats? We are proposing a 1p at every level of
:00:09. > :00:17.tax increase, and were we to win, we would think that tax in
:00:18. > :00:22.straightaway. Where UN coalition, would you insist on that? We are not
:00:23. > :00:29.going into coalition with any party in favour of Brexit. We have been
:00:30. > :00:35.working for a while on a cross-party Commission on the NHS where we talk
:00:36. > :00:37.about instituting a new tax, may be developing the national insurance
:00:38. > :00:42.contributions, so we can unite health and social care and do with
:00:43. > :00:48.this in a practical, what the Times called a clever, coherent and costed
:00:49. > :00:54.way. The Conservatives? Yellow macro some very good ideas from reviewers.
:00:55. > :00:58.We are trying to act in the national interest, and a find a balance that
:00:59. > :01:00.is fair to the elderly, and is fair to younger people as well who are
:01:01. > :01:05.struggling to get on the housing ladder. So we have to act in the
:01:06. > :01:09.national interest and find a balance that suits everybody. And I notice
:01:10. > :01:14.we are being criticised from left and right and from the alternative
:01:15. > :01:16.left and alternative right, so it makes me think that actually,
:01:17. > :01:20.despite the fact some people don't like this policy, it is the best
:01:21. > :01:24.thing for the national interest, and protects youngsters and the elderly
:01:25. > :01:31.as well by giving them a minimum of ?100,000 they will be able to pass
:01:32. > :01:32.on, which is four times greater than the ?23,000 which is the lower level
:01:33. > :01:41.now. That's the Sunday Politics
:01:42. > :01:43.in the South, thanks I'll be back on Tuesday with our
:01:44. > :01:48.election debate, BBC One at 10:45 - We'll have candidates from each
:01:49. > :01:54.of the five parties, and an audience of local voters
:01:55. > :01:57.to give them a good grilling. Hope you can join us then -
:01:58. > :02:02.for now though, it's back to Jo. re-elected. Is the only choice for
:02:03. > :02:18.strong and stable leadership. Now, after the Manchester attack,
:02:19. > :02:21.will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from
:02:22. > :02:28.what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front
:02:29. > :02:33.of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election
:02:34. > :02:38.if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is
:02:39. > :02:43.inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said
:02:44. > :02:49.before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,
:02:50. > :02:54.unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about
:02:55. > :02:59.security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.
:03:00. > :03:03.Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't
:03:04. > :03:08.impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign
:03:09. > :03:15.policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.
:03:16. > :03:22.Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter
:03:23. > :03:26.nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative
:03:27. > :03:31.party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be
:03:32. > :03:36.safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour
:03:37. > :03:45.or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist
:03:46. > :03:50.ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.
:03:51. > :03:53.It also points to a broader argument, one we were having
:03:54. > :04:00.earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of
:04:01. > :04:05.extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the
:04:06. > :04:09.sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this
:04:10. > :04:17.being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too
:04:18. > :04:22.cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election
:04:23. > :04:28.campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,
:04:29. > :04:32.policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political
:04:33. > :04:40.divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a
:04:41. > :04:47.tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election
:04:48. > :04:54.debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call
:04:55. > :04:58.it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide
:04:59. > :05:05.neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think
:05:06. > :05:12.the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is
:05:13. > :05:17.an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to
:05:18. > :05:21.talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of
:05:22. > :05:25.argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the
:05:26. > :05:29.politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no
:05:30. > :05:35.wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect
:05:36. > :05:42.our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It
:05:43. > :05:48.may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want
:05:49. > :05:53.to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right
:05:54. > :05:56.now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have
:05:57. > :06:01.got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually
:06:02. > :06:04.tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it
:06:05. > :06:12.earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.
:06:13. > :06:18.Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist
:06:19. > :06:24.legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used
:06:25. > :06:27.enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in
:06:28. > :06:33.an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this
:06:34. > :06:36.terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil
:06:37. > :06:42.liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,
:06:43. > :06:49.it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't
:06:50. > :06:52.actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,
:06:53. > :06:57.but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different
:06:58. > :07:01.argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.
:07:02. > :07:05.That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to
:07:06. > :07:09.dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign
:07:10. > :07:14.relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social
:07:15. > :07:20.care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris
:07:21. > :07:24.Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa
:07:25. > :07:29.May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have
:07:30. > :07:32.seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly
:07:33. > :07:37.the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and
:07:38. > :07:42.again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and
:07:43. > :07:45.actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few
:07:46. > :07:50.days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries
:07:51. > :07:56.to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership
:07:57. > :08:03.and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I
:08:04. > :08:10.think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to
:08:11. > :08:14.broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't
:08:15. > :08:22.think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a
:08:23. > :08:26.small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with
:08:27. > :08:34.an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million
:08:35. > :08:39.people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There
:08:40. > :08:44.is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on
:08:45. > :08:49.from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they
:08:50. > :08:55.are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.
:08:56. > :09:00.Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from
:09:01. > :09:04.security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a
:09:05. > :09:08.gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.
:09:09. > :09:13.But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone
:09:14. > :09:19.according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an
:09:20. > :09:23.election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.
:09:24. > :09:28.Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who
:09:29. > :09:33.will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott
:09:34. > :09:38.against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is
:09:39. > :09:42.something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in
:09:43. > :09:47.the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a
:09:48. > :09:51.graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That
:09:52. > :09:54.is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant
:09:55. > :10:00.that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before
:10:01. > :10:04.Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those
:10:05. > :10:08.groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents
:10:09. > :10:13.rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the
:10:14. > :10:18.companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to
:10:19. > :10:22.build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the
:10:23. > :10:28.time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same
:10:29. > :10:33.views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the
:10:34. > :10:40.views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the
:10:41. > :10:45.IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to
:10:46. > :10:49.Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years
:10:50. > :10:54.but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.
:10:55. > :10:58.Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two
:10:59. > :11:04.of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?
:11:05. > :11:10.On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like
:11:11. > :11:14.to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or
:11:15. > :11:19.supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a
:11:20. > :11:25.radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my
:11:26. > :11:31.regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute
:11:32. > :11:43.disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:44. > :11:47.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:48. > :11:55.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:56. > :12:04.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:05. > :12:09.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:10. > :12:13.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:14. > :12:18.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:19. > :12:21.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:22. > :12:25.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:26. > :12:33.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:34. > :12:42.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:43. > :12:47.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:48. > :12:51.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:52. > :12:54.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:55. > :12:59.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:13:00. > :13:03.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:04. > :13:07.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:08. > :13:14.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:15. > :13:21.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:22. > :13:27.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:28. > :13:32.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:33. > :13:34.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:35. > :14:09.of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls
:14:10. > :14:11.to choose who represents them the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins
:14:12. > :14:22.me for the Andrew Neil Interviews. One minute to get the
:14:23. > :14:23.food on the plate. ..team them up with
:14:24. > :14:27.a Michelin starred chef, putting their reputation
:14:28. > :14:29.on the line. ..which team will have the
:14:30. > :14:36.recipe for success? One minute to get the
:14:37. > :14:39.food on the plate.