:00:41. > :00:50.Welcome to Sunday Politics. Our top story: Mac is Labour playing catch-
:00:50. > :00:55.up on the benefits scheme? We shadow the welfare spokesman. Just
:00:55. > :01:00.how big is Stephen Heston's bonus and should the Government Brocket?
:01:00. > :01:04.Treasury Chief Secretary joins us for the Sunday interview. After the
:01:04. > :01:11.Government's welfare reforms took a battering in the Lords, our innate
:01:11. > :01:15.s plans next? Labour and Tory go a dead. -- our NHS plans.
:01:15. > :01:22.Our political panel of the best. They are here to analyse British
:01:22. > :01:27.politics in the week ahead. Is the UK on the road to a federal
:01:27. > :01:37.structure with some of our tax is paid to the Welsh government? It is
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :35:21.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2024 seconds
:35:21. > :35:25.a view be expressed by a leading Welcome to Sunday Politics. The
:35:25. > :35:29.Presiding Officer talks of a federal structure in the United
:35:30. > :35:34.Kingdom. A prominent Muslim leader makes a plea for tolerance. To
:35:34. > :35:40.guide us through these and other topics I am joined by Brennan, the
:35:40. > :35:46.leader for Cardiff West and Bethan Jones, the Plaid AM for South Wales
:35:46. > :35:51.West. This �1 million bonus on offer to Stephen Hester. It is
:35:51. > :35:55.being offered because any deal Labour struck. We know it is
:35:55. > :36:00.possible for the Government to vary their contractual obligations from
:36:00. > :36:05.when RBS went into public ownership. My constituents cannot understand
:36:05. > :36:10.how would his RBS can be the first to pull the plug on a company like
:36:10. > :36:17.peacocks and end up with their Chief Executive being given that
:36:17. > :36:22.this kind of business -- bonus. It is possible for the Government to
:36:22. > :36:26.act, they are empowered. argument is, Bethan Jenkins, this
:36:26. > :36:31.man is doing a good job and it would cost the taxpayer a lot more
:36:31. > :36:34.if this bonus was not on offer. think the Government has a strong
:36:35. > :36:39.position on the board so they wanted to enforce the situation
:36:39. > :36:43.where he did not take that bonus, they could do so. If you ask
:36:43. > :36:47.somebody to do something voluntarily, they will not. People
:36:47. > :36:55.are fighting for their jobs, fighting for their pensions, it is
:36:55. > :37:01.galling to see large-scale bonuses when the public has bailed them out.
:37:01. > :37:03.The Government need to take firm action on this. Thank you. The
:37:03. > :37:07.consultation on Scottish independence which was published
:37:07. > :37:11.last week has opened up a wider debate about the future of the
:37:11. > :37:15.United Kingdom. How should Wales respond and how would we see
:37:15. > :37:19.ourselves if Alex Salmond won the referendum which will happen in
:37:19. > :37:23.2014? Most political observers now agree a change in relationship
:37:23. > :37:27.between each constituent part of the UK is inevitable. One of those
:37:27. > :37:32.is the Conservative AM David Melding who has long been a student
:37:32. > :37:37.of devolution. I put it to him if David Cameron has got his tactics
:37:37. > :37:42.wrong over Scottish independence. Hyde is a grey -- disagreed he has
:37:42. > :37:47.been focusing on those questions of feasibility of whether Scotland
:37:47. > :37:53.could survive. Will except Scotland could be independent. There would
:37:53. > :37:58.be advantages and disadvantages. -- we all accept. I believe the
:37:58. > :38:03.disadvantages are greater. This point of clarifying how we would
:38:03. > :38:07.hold a referendum and how it would be clear and fair, I point people
:38:08. > :38:13.to the Canadian experience in the 1990s to demonstrate what can go
:38:13. > :38:18.wrong. That is important. It is stage one. Stage two is working out
:38:18. > :38:28.what Britain we will have after 2014, assuming people of Scotland
:38:28. > :38:35.do not vote for independence will stop if Scotland was to become
:38:35. > :38:40.independent, what do you anticipate would be the next step for Wales? I
:38:40. > :38:46.think the alternative to independence is to see a proper
:38:46. > :38:50.federation within the British Isles and a home nations. We are
:38:50. > :39:00.committed to a British state with clear policies that are reserved to
:39:00. > :39:03.
:39:03. > :39:07.the British state. Whatever happens after 2014, I think it is going to
:39:07. > :39:11.affect Wales because we are either going to be part of a British
:39:11. > :39:15.federation, which I hope will emerge, or if the people of
:39:15. > :39:22.Scotland vote for independence, we have to think about what sort of
:39:22. > :39:26.combination will work between the Northern Ireland, Wales and England.
:39:26. > :39:31.I think we are right to raise these questions. That would look very
:39:31. > :39:39.different to today's arrangement. It more powers are to come to Wales,
:39:39. > :39:43.they are likely to be around fiscal responsibility. If taxes were to
:39:43. > :39:46.come, like air passenger duty, they might not be worth much to the
:39:46. > :39:50.Welsh government. The Welsh government might not be keen to
:39:50. > :39:55.inherit responsibility about national insurance and income tax.
:39:55. > :40:00.Where do you stand on this? best way forward would be to see a
:40:00. > :40:05.dual income tax rate which is part UK and part Wales or Scotland. That
:40:05. > :40:09.is so part of the income tax rate would pay for Welsh services and
:40:09. > :40:16.part for UK services. People would clearly understand what rate they
:40:16. > :40:20.are paying for. Also, some limited borrowing powers. One has to be
:40:20. > :40:25.careful on borrowing powers. Steak into trouble usually get into
:40:25. > :40:32.trouble on borrowing rather than their tax revenue. -- states that
:40:32. > :40:36.get into trouble. If there was to be a formal federal structure, I
:40:37. > :40:43.take it your vision of it, Welsh MPs would not be voting on matters
:40:43. > :40:47.that only affect England. You think it is nonsensical that happens.
:40:47. > :40:51.is my view we cannot overlook forever the political rights of
:40:51. > :40:59.England and the people of England will make these determinations and
:40:59. > :41:03.I think we need to focus, as Carwyn Jones has done, on the federal
:41:03. > :41:08.institutions that would protect the particular concerns of Wales and
:41:08. > :41:13.Scotland as smaller partners. There is an issue. I would have thought
:41:13. > :41:18.reforming the House of Lords is the way to do that. I do not think we
:41:18. > :41:24.can forever so few English rights within the House of Commons. That
:41:24. > :41:30.will lead to great problems. Sub due. Thank you.
:41:30. > :41:33.That was David Melding. What you make of that? Do you not concede
:41:33. > :41:38.the most likely settlement which will appeal to the Welsh public is
:41:38. > :41:43.one which there would be some powers, some responsibilities still
:41:43. > :41:48.reserves to the UK government? is yet to be fully discussed now we
:41:48. > :41:55.are looking at fiscal powers for Wales. That is something that could
:41:55. > :42:00.be discussed. The counter view is being discussed by your party.
:42:00. > :42:03.course. That is what I was coming to. Scotland are well on their way
:42:03. > :42:08.to having that debate. That is something we should be discussing
:42:08. > :42:12.on a British level, if you want to call it that, in terms of what
:42:12. > :42:18.would happen if Scotland had independence. The concept of
:42:18. > :42:24.federalism is something that is on the fringes of UK politics.
:42:24. > :42:29.Unionism hasn't had any cohesion. You would expect me to support what
:42:29. > :42:34.they are doing in Scotland because that is the method of our party.
:42:34. > :42:39.What was coming through is what Carwyn Jones has been saying.
:42:39. > :42:45.Calling for clarity, this constitutional Convention. It is
:42:45. > :42:51.all a bit of a mess at the moment. I think David's contribution is a
:42:51. > :42:56.very thought for one, as well as Carwyn Jones'. They are trying to
:42:56. > :43:02.tackle the question of devolution. It is a process, not an event. We
:43:03. > :43:09.haven't a symmetrical constitution in the UK. -- we have. Who should
:43:09. > :43:16.may cause is difficult because we have a bunch of unelected people in
:43:16. > :43:20.a House of Lords. I think there is a need for big constitutional
:43:20. > :43:24.debate about the future of the United Kingdom. I strongly believe
:43:24. > :43:28.the United Kingdom is a very powerful and successful political
:43:28. > :43:34.entity, that Wales will want to remain a part of. Ultimately, if
:43:34. > :43:40.they are given a straight question rather than it being fudged, I
:43:40. > :43:45.cannot -- I think Scottish people want to stay part of the UK.
:43:45. > :43:52.have spoken about who should vote. You have been an education minister
:43:52. > :43:56.for quite a long time. You are now a shadow. Where is the sense in you
:43:56. > :44:03.making a contribution about policy which has no effect on your
:44:03. > :44:13.constituents? A minister of the Crown is not dependent on being an
:44:13. > :44:14.
:44:14. > :44:23.MP. You can be a member of the House of Lords... In the long term,
:44:23. > :44:30.David is right, that is the question we will have to look at.
:44:30. > :44:35.We need to look at where Welsh MPs, what aspects they can vote on.
:44:35. > :44:40.Ultimately, our process we were going down was towards regional
:44:40. > :44:43.devolution in England. That was rejected in England and left us in
:44:43. > :44:51.this position with the English question unanswered. In the long
:44:51. > :45:01.term, the kind of things that David Melding is saying, an overall
:45:01. > :45:04.settlement for the UK, is what we need. Few -- if you compare the
:45:04. > :45:08.legislation going through Parliament and the Assembly at the
:45:08. > :45:11.moment, there is a vast difference in the number of legislation going
:45:11. > :45:15.through each establishment. Some people would say, if you look at
:45:15. > :45:21.the legislation going through the Assembly at the moment, it is one
:45:21. > :45:26.piece of legislation since the election. What difference have
:45:26. > :45:30.these greater powers made? You have to ask the Government, the Labour
:45:30. > :45:34.government, why there is only one piece of legislation. We need to
:45:34. > :45:37.see more action from its current government in Wales. You have seen
:45:38. > :45:43.Alex Salmond constantly take the debate on with David Cameron her as
:45:43. > :45:48.regards to powers, the referendum, independence. Carwyn Jones has been
:45:48. > :45:51.quite laid-back until now. Suddenly, Unionists are worrying about the
:45:52. > :45:57.referendum and are trying to scramble ideas together as to what
:45:57. > :46:02.would be the alternative of. People like Kevin need to take a stance.
:46:02. > :46:08.Do you believe in devolution of or can we allow Scotland to go on
:46:08. > :46:13.their own? I think it would be a big mistake for Scotland to go it
:46:13. > :46:16.alone. They do need clarity about what is being proposed. If you have
:46:16. > :46:20.a separate Scotland, that question should be put forward to the people
:46:20. > :46:29.of Scotland in a straightforward way. Alex Salmond gets away with a
:46:29. > :46:39.lot and has been very clever in manoeuvring the debate towards what
:46:39. > :46:39.
:46:39. > :46:48.this option is. Most people have consistently, either when the vote
:46:48. > :46:52.SMP, do not want to leave the United Kingdom. -- SNP. A South
:46:52. > :46:57.Wales Muslim leader has issued a plea for people of all faiths to
:46:57. > :47:00.redouble efforts to promote understanding and tolerance. Sheik
:47:00. > :47:04.Mohammad Tahir Ullah, the chairman of a Newport Moscow, urged everyone
:47:04. > :47:08.to focus on the need to help each other through bleak economic times
:47:09. > :47:16.for the sake of future generations. He was speaking to our reporter.
:47:16. > :47:20.As worshippers gathered for prayers they were reminded of the need for
:47:20. > :47:25.respect for the law of the land and tolerance. It is something Sheik
:47:25. > :47:35.Mohammad Tahir Ullah, a Bangladeshi who came to Britain as a young boy,
:47:35. > :47:37.
:47:37. > :47:45.is passionate about. I speak about tolerance and understanding. As a
:47:45. > :47:52.Muslim, we do that anyway. I think there is opportunity now, people do
:47:52. > :48:01.understand about the Muslim religion as well as their own, I
:48:01. > :48:09.think we are getting there. We are on the right path. We have to work
:48:09. > :48:12.hard. You have to work your duty. For more than three decades, Sheik
:48:12. > :48:18.Mohammad Tahir Ullah has been chairman of the mosque which last
:48:18. > :48:22.month joined six others in the city contradicting claims Islam approves
:48:22. > :48:28.violence. Anti-terror police raided a meeting as a community hall in
:48:28. > :48:33.Cardiff. The meeting's leader rejected suggestions it was linked
:48:33. > :48:40.with a extremist group. Whatever the truth, title -- Sheik Mohammad
:48:40. > :48:48.Tahir Ullah says people need to come together. Muslim religion is
:48:48. > :48:54.broad and wide. It does not prevent you integrating with the other
:48:55. > :49:02.societies. I asked everybody in society -- I asked, we are normal
:49:03. > :49:08.human beings, we are the creation of God. All men have to look after
:49:08. > :49:17.each other. Never mind whether I am black, white, red or green. It does
:49:17. > :49:21.not matter. We are all human beings. We are children of Adam and Eve. We
:49:21. > :49:25.have to embrace each other. This community is sharing the economic
:49:25. > :49:30.pain of recent years and hoping things will be better for the
:49:30. > :49:36.generation that comes next. We are no different to anybody else. We
:49:36. > :49:46.have been hit by the recession as well. I ask everybody to come -- to
:49:46. > :49:46.
:49:46. > :49:56.comfort each other and do good deeds for the next generation.
:49:56. > :50:03.Everybody is a child. As the Prophet said, if you save one life,
:50:04. > :50:09.you save the whole of mankind. If you take one life away, you kill
:50:09. > :50:14.behold humanity. That was Sheik Mohammad Tahir Ullah.
:50:14. > :50:18.One thing that struck me, Bethan Jenkins, was he said, we are
:50:18. > :50:23.getting there, implying we are not there yet, in terms of people
:50:23. > :50:29.living side-by-side. What more can be done by politicians, by the
:50:29. > :50:34.Welsh government to make sure that happens? I think Wales has a long
:50:34. > :50:40.and proud tradition of communities living together from De Vit -- from
:50:40. > :50:44.different ethnic groups. What we need to do is address the issues
:50:44. > :50:49.that some communities have towards why they feel they are not being
:50:49. > :50:55.listened to or hurt. Lots of people living in deprived communities, as
:50:55. > :51:00.well. -- listened to or heard. We do not want to push groups
:51:00. > :51:04.underground. We want to engage. We should not saying the police in to
:51:04. > :51:07.stop meetings happen. As politicians, we have to lead more
:51:07. > :51:12.effectively in those communities and listen to those leaders who
:51:12. > :51:16.have that type of engagement that we may not have. On that police
:51:16. > :51:21.raid in the community centre, is that acceptable? It was very
:51:21. > :51:26.strongly supported by Muslim leaders across Wales. It is
:51:26. > :51:30.extremely important not to be complacent about the dangers of
:51:30. > :51:35.extremism and there is a very small element within the Muslim community
:51:35. > :51:42.itself in South Wales that has been influenced by outsiders. Some
:51:42. > :51:46.people say they are being picked on. I think if you talk to Muslim
:51:46. > :51:50.leaders there is very strong support for the Act and the police
:51:50. > :51:55.have taken. They are very concerned of the influence on young people of
:51:55. > :51:58.some of the ideas of violence and extremism. I would say, in support
:51:59. > :52:04.of Bethan, there is a good community relations a cross South
:52:04. > :52:13.Wales. We have had that for a long time. I have a large Muslim
:52:14. > :52:23.population within my constituency and there are strong support so we
:52:23. > :52:28.do not allow extremism. The prion and Muslim leader who died last
:52:28. > :52:33.year preached strongly on this subject. -- the predominant Muslim
:52:33. > :52:36.leader. I think there are ways of dealing with things. I am not sure
:52:36. > :52:40.whether sending police in heavy handed Leigh will alleviate some of
:52:40. > :52:50.the tensions that clearly do exist in our communities. We should not
:52:50. > :52:54.
:52:54. > :52:58.be complacent, however. Time to look at the political week.
:52:58. > :53:03.Darren Miller, chair of the Assembly's Public Accounts
:53:03. > :53:09.Committee, said the police should investigate financial corruption at
:53:09. > :53:14.the leading the race Relations company. All funding has been
:53:14. > :53:18.suspended because of the allegations. Outlining a new social
:53:18. > :53:21.services bill, the minister said it would give greater powers to
:53:21. > :53:26.thousands of people who receive care. They would have rights have
:53:27. > :53:30.more control over budgets. Concerns were raised about children
:53:30. > :53:33.with mental health problems. Some suffered from poor self-image
:53:33. > :53:38.because of advertising and the media.
:53:38. > :53:43.At the Scottish government unveiled proposals for a referendum on
:53:43. > :53:49.independence. Carwyn Jones said he doubted whether Scots would back
:53:49. > :53:54.leaving the UK. The Plaid Cymru leadership contender said Wales
:53:54. > :54:03.could have a referendum on independence if Plaid Cymru won the
:54:03. > :54:07.next two elections. Bethan Jenkins, let us start with
:54:07. > :54:15.what was said about Plaid Cymru victories in the next two elections.
:54:15. > :54:20.They have a big leap for the party that lost seats. -- is a big lead.
:54:20. > :54:24.We have to be ambitious. We have to think big, otherwise what is the
:54:24. > :54:29.point of Plaid Cymru? We are looking at was Scotland is doing,
:54:29. > :54:33.we are looking at the campaign that is going to be starting in Ireland,
:54:33. > :54:38.and Wales needs to be part of that debate for Welsh independence. I am
:54:38. > :54:46.excited by what all the candidates have to say. Are you running scared,
:54:46. > :54:51.Kevin Brennan? I think Bethan is right. Any party should seek to be
:54:51. > :54:55.ambitious but I think in private, a lot of people in Plaid Cymru would