:01:45. > :01:51.Later in the programme: How does a left-leaning, Welsh learning
:01:51. > :02:01.Republican from Bala Gwyn the hearts of Wales? -- from the
:02:01. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :30:28.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1707 seconds
:30:28. > :30:32.Rhondda. We look at Leanne Wood's On the Sunday Politics Wales: A new
:30:32. > :30:37.leader for Plaid Cymru and the so commission visits Swansea and asks
:30:37. > :30:42.if there is an appetite to devolve taxation powers. I am joined for
:30:42. > :30:46.the next 20 minutes by Labour's Nia Griffith and Plaid Cymru's David
:30:46. > :30:49.Ellis Thomas. This week, the Chancellor will announce his Budget
:30:49. > :30:54.plans on Wednesday. This seemed likely to be changes in public
:30:54. > :30:58.sector pay. If there are differentials in the cost of living
:30:58. > :31:04.throughout the UK, why not scrap national pay rates? It is deeply
:31:04. > :31:08.unfair. People recognise you should get the same pay for the same job.
:31:08. > :31:11.What the Chancellor's leaked proposal says is unworkable. Even
:31:11. > :31:16.differentiating between suburban and inner-city areas, it is very
:31:17. > :31:20.unfair, and people will ask if they should not have the same pay. If
:31:20. > :31:24.anything we should be improving private sector pay in areas where
:31:24. > :31:29.it is low. Public sector workers accepted stoically the freeze on
:31:29. > :31:33.pay and recognise the difficulties of their financial situation. They
:31:33. > :31:37.have already been hit very hard by additional pension contributions
:31:37. > :31:41.and will see this as an unwarranted attack. But Welsh public sector pay
:31:41. > :31:46.by all accounts his 18 per cent higher vanities for comparable jobs
:31:46. > :31:52.in the private sector. Wouldn't freezing public sector pay in Wales
:31:52. > :31:58.close that gap? No, because you are closing the gap down, surely. I
:31:58. > :32:03.don't understand why it is seen as appropriate for public sector jobs,
:32:03. > :32:05.including the people I used to employee in the Assembly when I was
:32:05. > :32:12.presiding, their level of pay was determined in relation to the work
:32:12. > :32:16.they did so. That is the comparator, not comparison with pay in the
:32:16. > :32:22.private sector. How does it improve the position of the Welsh economy
:32:22. > :32:26.to deflate public sector purchasing power? I just don't understand the
:32:26. > :32:31.economic argument. I'm sure we will hear more on that on Wednesday.
:32:31. > :32:35.Leanne Wood is the new Plaid Cymru leader with an unexpected win. Her
:32:35. > :32:39.background is different to their predecessors, so how does a left-
:32:39. > :32:46.wing Republican from the Rhondda win the hearts of voters across
:32:46. > :32:52.Wales? Tomos Livingstone reports. We are your party, the People's
:32:53. > :32:58.Party, of Wales, for Wales. Join us. Helpers rebuild your community.
:32:58. > :33:03.Help us to rebuild your economy. Together we can build a Wales that
:33:03. > :33:10.is fair, a new Wales that will flourish, and a new Wales that will
:33:10. > :33:15.one day be free. After the celebrations, it is back to work
:33:15. > :33:19.this week for Leanne Wood at the Senate macro. Plaid Cymru will also
:33:19. > :33:23.look different, led by a woman, Aube Welsh learner from the Rhondda
:33:23. > :33:28.valleys, and the challenge has been set out for her, to take on Labour
:33:28. > :33:32.in its South Wales heart dance, but how do you do that? He is someone
:33:32. > :33:37.who has done it before. She will know better than anybody because
:33:37. > :33:40.she lives in the community. She will address the issues which
:33:41. > :33:45.matter to people in terms of jobs, standard of living, housing,
:33:45. > :33:49.education and health, the things in their everyday life, and it is that
:33:49. > :33:54.more than theoretical politics that matters, and in that she has worked
:33:54. > :33:57.before entering Parliament, she has seen the challenges in the
:33:57. > :34:00.communities of the old coalfield areas and knows naturally how to
:34:00. > :34:05.pitch that argument and I think she will get a tremendous response to
:34:05. > :34:09.that. But there is a dilemma for any Plaid leader that you can spend
:34:09. > :34:12.time attacking the Labour Party but coalitions tend to be the norm
:34:12. > :34:16.after elections. Do they have to flip-flop and start talking to the
:34:16. > :34:19.people they have been attacking? What is important is that you
:34:19. > :34:22.attack the problems and give positive solutions as you see
:34:22. > :34:27.things to the issues that matter to people, and when an election is
:34:27. > :34:30.over, there has to be coming together to form a government. If
:34:30. > :34:36.one party has a majority so be it, otherwise you need to find a common
:34:36. > :34:40.agenda. We found at a reasonable agenda with Labour between 2007-11
:34:40. > :34:43.but it didn't stop us criticising them into the following election.
:34:43. > :34:47.There are many things at Westminster to answer for
:34:47. > :34:53.particularly, but that is the reality of politician -- coalition
:34:53. > :34:59.politics which is also a reality in Westminster. Politics is a fine art.
:34:59. > :35:04.There is a shadow team to appoint. What role should be given to dab of
:35:04. > :35:09.Ellis Thomas and Elin Jones? Then Lee and what needs to clarify
:35:09. > :35:12.positions on the royal family and the future of nuclear energy.
:35:12. > :35:17.leader you are obliged to follow the party line and no doubt Lehane
:35:17. > :35:22.will do that, not only on matters such as the future of nuclear power,
:35:22. > :35:28.which is important economic Cleeton of Wales, but equally what upsets
:35:29. > :35:31.many people across Wales, but on other issues which she has a very
:35:31. > :35:35.strong personal opinion, but as leader of the party she will be
:35:35. > :35:38.serving the party as a whole. Leanne Wood is keeping a low
:35:38. > :35:42.profile this weekend but come to stay there will be nowhere to hide.
:35:42. > :35:47.She will take on Carwyn Jones at first Minister's Questions, and
:35:47. > :35:50.then we will find out what being towards -- aggressive towards
:35:50. > :35:54.Labour means. She is so very different as a
:35:54. > :35:59.leader to what has been there for her. What do your supporters make
:35:59. > :36:03.of her victory? I have caused did vote for her, this is the wonderful
:36:03. > :36:07.thing about the alternative vote system, she got my second
:36:07. > :36:11.preference, because I think there is a very strong case for Plaid,
:36:11. > :36:14.especially these days in the economic crisis and the crisis in
:36:14. > :36:21.public services, being led from the left. This is what the party
:36:21. > :36:25.thought, obviously, and I clearly accept without reservation that
:36:25. > :36:30.this is the case. Obviously, there are people in the party, I met some
:36:31. > :36:35.yesterday, rugby supporters, who will thank me for naming them here,
:36:35. > :36:40.who were concerned about the balance of opinion within the party
:36:40. > :36:44.being reflected. That is a matter which of course I have not spoken
:36:44. > :36:49.about. Either -- I have spoken to Leanne but have not spoken about
:36:49. > :36:53.the future direction of the Shadow Cabinet. Were you able to allay
:36:53. > :36:58.their fears? Among stores supporters, they felt the danger of
:36:58. > :37:03.the party going too far to the left -- your supporters. I wouldn't put
:37:03. > :37:05.it in those terms, it is in terms a realistic economic programme. These
:37:05. > :37:08.were business people I spoke to who wanted to make sure business
:37:08. > :37:13.interests were reflected in the party's position, which is a martyr
:37:13. > :37:17.for all of us to be concerned about, -- a matter, which we -- because
:37:17. > :37:22.clearly we need a credible economic agenda which is also green and
:37:22. > :37:27.faces up to the financial issues that face Wales. Leanne Wood wants
:37:27. > :37:32.to park her tank if not plight Cymru's on the Labour lawn. Are you
:37:32. > :37:36.going to say, bring it on, or do you sense a genuine threat to
:37:37. > :37:40.Labour's superiority in Wales? point is that if she wants to work
:37:41. > :37:44.sensibly with us on policies to make the economy were property and
:37:44. > :37:48.-- probably an tackle poverty, we would welcome working weather and
:37:48. > :37:52.light the way Plaid behaved over the budget in the Assembly --
:37:52. > :37:55.working with us. If she thinks she will make massive inroads into the
:37:55. > :37:59.valleys she needs to member in 2001 when she was the candidate and
:37:59. > :38:02.Plaid was on a hike, she only polled a few hundred more than in
:38:03. > :38:06.the Seventies, so I don't think she has made that impact in the valleys,
:38:06. > :38:11.but certainly if she wants to work sensibly wethers, it is good to
:38:11. > :38:15.have consensus. The arguments from her supporters and herself is that
:38:15. > :38:20.she is from that community, from the Labour heartlands, and can feel
:38:20. > :38:25.the pain Labour supporters are feeling and empathises with their
:38:25. > :38:31.problems and concerns. She can pull supporters away from your party.
:38:31. > :38:35.I said, as a candidate she did not do that. She is a list Assembly
:38:35. > :38:38.Member and they do not get the votes in the same way as
:38:38. > :38:42.constituency members do. I don't think she has done that to date,
:38:42. > :38:47.then, and if she wants to work sensibly with us on policies we can
:38:47. > :38:52.agree on, great, but to say that somehow or other there will be a
:38:52. > :38:56.huge shift in values politics, it will not happen. Nia Griffith makes
:38:56. > :39:00.a pertinent point. She has not been tested by the whole of the wealth -
:39:00. > :39:03.- Welsh electorate. She is a list member who has been internally
:39:03. > :39:08.elected. Will this be the first test of Leanne Wood's popularity,
:39:08. > :39:12.if you like, across the masses? have never distinguished between
:39:12. > :39:16.list and constituency members. The way we gather boats is different,
:39:16. > :39:20.clearly, but we are talking about the national profile of the party -
:39:20. > :39:25.- gather votes. Membership has clearly indicated whether it wishes
:39:25. > :39:29.to place itself, and for the first time it is led from the left, the
:39:29. > :39:34.first time since the early Nineties, and it is something I support.
:39:34. > :39:41.During the campaign, two offers supporters raised questions. Adam
:39:41. > :39:44.priced -- Adam Price caught her and intellectual risk and Dyfed A one
:39:44. > :39:50.said she might put her foot in it now and then. You share those
:39:50. > :39:54.concerns? I do not. I think she is intellectually coherent. I have
:39:54. > :39:59.known her for many years because she was a political concert --
:39:59. > :40:05.assistant before being apart Titian. She has worked in politics most of
:40:05. > :40:12.her life -- before being a politician. Adam Price said an
:40:12. > :40:16.intelligence risk. That is right. And I find her communication skills
:40:16. > :40:20.excellent otherwise she would not have done so well in the election.
:40:20. > :40:25.But of course we do not know yet exactly what direction she wants to
:40:25. > :40:29.take the party, but she will have an issue there, of course, because
:40:29. > :40:35.not all the group clearly supported her. But then they didn't support
:40:35. > :40:37.other people either. I am sure we will find out more about the future
:40:37. > :40:40.direction at the Plaid conference next weekend.
:40:40. > :40:44.A series of public events to gauge opinion on whether the Welsh
:40:44. > :40:48.Government should get tax or borrowing powers had begun. This
:40:48. > :40:52.will Commission chose the elegant surroundings of the Swansea Grand
:40:52. > :40:57.Theatre to launch its roadshow -- this will Commission. It wasn't a
:40:57. > :41:00.sell-out, with less than a dozen people turning up. One commissioner
:41:00. > :41:04.told the Sunday Politics he was confident the recommendations would
:41:04. > :41:07.be put into practice. Adrian Browne reports.
:41:07. > :41:14.Forget the dazzling star-studded opening nights Swansea's Grand
:41:14. > :41:17.Theatre has hosted. The Silk commissioned was away from the main
:41:17. > :41:22.stage with a series of public events mulling over the merits of
:41:22. > :41:26.transferring tax and borrowing powers from London to Cardiff. Just
:41:26. > :41:31.11 members of the public turned up, but there were some spirited
:41:31. > :41:37.contributions. A parish town council has tax-varying powers, but
:41:37. > :41:44.the national government does not. Differential taxes for different
:41:44. > :41:50.industries could well attacked -- attract money making individuals
:41:50. > :41:54.and industries to Wales. shouldn't government be able to
:41:54. > :42:00.extend this planning horizon by borrowing? There is very, very
:42:00. > :42:04.strong evidence that reductions drive economic welfare. Those who
:42:04. > :42:07.did join this alternative night out were glad they did. I found it very
:42:07. > :42:11.interesting, actually, because I haven't thought about it in the
:42:11. > :42:15.past. It is something you hear about but don't really taking, and
:42:15. > :42:23.it raised interesting points for me, who for thought. What did you
:42:23. > :42:29.think? Well, I have a few concerns, obviously it isn't going to be
:42:29. > :42:33.neutral, it will cost me more in tax, and I would like to think that
:42:33. > :42:38.money will be well spent in improving the infrastructure in
:42:38. > :42:44.Wales. If they raise �10 from that tax, the government will say, we
:42:44. > :42:47.will give you �10 less in that tax, so what will we get? Commission
:42:47. > :42:52.members were as positive as they could be about attention figures.
:42:52. > :42:56.It is the first kick-off, fairly short notice, and I think as the
:42:56. > :43:00.Commission gathers strength and as we go around and publicise it more,
:43:00. > :43:04.hopefully we will get that attendance. It is very important to
:43:04. > :43:07.us as we go around Wales to give these opportunities to people all
:43:07. > :43:11.over Wales so they can put their views to us either to come into one
:43:11. > :43:15.of these events or getting involved through our Web forum or sending in
:43:15. > :43:19.a questionnaire, or whatever it is, and this is an opportunity for
:43:19. > :43:23.people we feel is very important. The recommendations on devolving
:43:23. > :43:28.taxes and borrowing powers are due this autumn, but will they be
:43:28. > :43:32.implemented? I am very confident, I mean, obviously we need coherent
:43:32. > :43:36.recommendations, and we obviously bearing in mind what sort of
:43:36. > :43:40.timescale is appropriate and so on, but I am confident that the
:43:40. > :43:43.government is keen we come up with coherent Browett -- proposals of in
:43:43. > :43:47.those terms of reference, keeping the government together and doing
:43:47. > :43:49.what is best for Wales, which is what the Commission is trying to do.
:43:50. > :43:53.As one member suggested tonight crowd control was never likely to
:43:53. > :43:57.be a problem but it was a lively debate which compared well with
:43:57. > :44:02.Assembly or parliamentary debates for that matter, but overwhelmingly
:44:02. > :44:08.dominated by pro-devolution lists. There will be other events
:44:08. > :44:12.including dropping in centres across Wales throughout the spring.
:44:12. > :44:15.It was hardly standing room only. What does that tell us about how
:44:15. > :44:19.much this debate is excite -- exercising the minds of the was
:44:19. > :44:24.public? They have other concerns at the moment, about the economy, and
:44:24. > :44:29.people are really saying, let's let the commission do the work and find
:44:30. > :44:33.out exactly what it would mean if we devolved certain taxes and how
:44:33. > :44:37.it would work in practice. Let them give us the detail about what would
:44:37. > :44:42.be possible and impossible, then we can look at the recommendations,
:44:42. > :44:45.but as you say, it is not top in people's minds at the moment.
:44:45. > :44:49.Commission is confident, by all accounts, that the UK government
:44:49. > :44:54.will act on its recommendations. Would you like to hazard a guess as
:44:54. > :44:58.to what they will be? No. I don't know what the UK government is
:44:58. > :45:04.likely to say, but the trouble with these exercises is they are
:45:04. > :45:07.consultations, and we have no guarantee, we haven't implemented
:45:07. > :45:11.the commission, there are things that haven't been done. The
:45:11. > :45:14.difficulty of preceding this way through a commission, however
:45:14. > :45:19.intelligent the commissioners or the chair of the Commission may be,
:45:19. > :45:27.are however experienced, they are dependent on the will of particular
:45:27. > :45:31.ministers at whatever time, and I think 2014 takes us into very
:45:31. > :45:34.interesting territory North of the border, as they would say, and that
:45:34. > :45:38.will probably have more influence on what government things than the
:45:39. > :45:41.contents of the Silk Commission report. The Welsh Government says
:45:41. > :45:47.it wants to see reform of the Barnett formula before the
:45:47. > :45:53.devolving of some taxation powers. Will thus become a political
:45:53. > :45:57.football? The key thing is to ensure that what is given but --
:45:57. > :45:59.with one hand is not taken away with the above. Any proposals that
:45:59. > :46:03.come forward from the Silk Commission, if the government is to
:46:03. > :46:07.implement them they need to look at the close detail. The existing form
:46:07. > :46:11.at the moment is the Barnett formula. Labour was keen to ensure
:46:11. > :46:15.a flaw was there to make sure we didn't begin to have a disadvantage
:46:15. > :46:18.from that formula, which up until a couple of years ago has served us
:46:18. > :46:22.extremely well, but the question now is obviously borrowing powers.
:46:22. > :46:26.Of course the what government should are borrowing powers, that
:46:26. > :46:29.should be useful for it -- the Welsh Government. The formula
:46:29. > :46:34.seemed to serve you well in government and out of government it
:46:34. > :46:40.didn't serve Wales very well. that is not what I said.
:46:40. > :46:45.Independently, the Barnett formula came in a particular way and reach
:46:45. > :46:48.a plateau after which things began to be less advantageous to Wales --
:46:49. > :46:52.reached. From the initiation of the Barnett formula up to this point it
:46:52. > :46:56.has worked well. It is not because of the change of government, just
:46:56. > :47:01.the way it worked out. Okay, as well as that meeting in Swansea
:47:01. > :47:09.last week a lot more happened last week. Time for a look back now at
:47:09. > :47:13.the week and 60 seconds with Adrian again. -- week in 60 seconds.
:47:13. > :47:17.The Welsh Government said the official European GDP statistics on
:47:17. > :47:20.falling economic prosperity in Wales where -- West Wales and the
:47:20. > :47:23.valleys were misleading, and the Enterprise Minister Edwina Hart
:47:23. > :47:28.admitted the Welsh Government hadn't got it right on the banding
:47:28. > :47:32.of Wales. The Carmarthen West and Pembrokeshire South MP Simon Hart
:47:32. > :47:39.and Jennie Willett, Cardiff Central MP, welcomed UK government plans to
:47:39. > :47:43.legalise gay marriages. How will Williams called for legal minimums
:47:43. > :47:48.on alcohol pricing in England after legislation passed its first hurdle
:47:48. > :47:52.in the Scottish parliament. The MP for Abba Conwy criticise the Prime
:47:52. > :47:56.Minister's approach to Scottish devolution, one in the Welsh Tories
:47:56. > :48:00.should look on recent events in Scotland with trepidation, saying
:48:00. > :48:05.merely tolerating devolution was no longer an option, and the Vale of
:48:05. > :48:09.Clwyd MP paid tribute to civic and church leaders in send us have as
:48:09. > :48:15.it became Wales's newest city as part of the diamond jubilee
:48:15. > :48:20.celebrations of the Queen -- St asked if.
:48:20. > :48:24.These GDP figures showing falling prosperity in Wales, I suppose we
:48:24. > :48:34.can come at this from two angles, either the bucket load of European
:48:34. > :48:35.
:48:35. > :48:39.money that has come to Wales or has I suspect there is an element of
:48:39. > :48:42.truth in both of them in that if there hadn't been at intervention,
:48:42. > :48:47.economic performance relatively would be worse, but there is an
:48:47. > :48:49.issue, and everyone is agreed on this, but the way the funds have
:48:49. > :48:51.been managed compared to other countries, where there seems to
:48:51. > :48:57.have been more effective infrastructure development for
:48:57. > :49:00.example, as a result of European funding. The Welsh Government are
:49:00. > :49:05.not recognising GDP figures and don't think it is an accurate
:49:05. > :49:09.indicator. Do you? What is important is how we go through --
:49:09. > :49:12.forward from here, and already Edwina Hart as Business Esther is
:49:12. > :49:17.making a difference, putting money into but -- viable businesses to
:49:17. > :49:21.keep jobs and stimulate the economy, but clearly we need to look at the
:49:21. > :49:25.most effective use of European funding and ensure that we get a
:49:25. > :49:29.good return. You mention Edwina Hart, she admitted this week she
:49:29. > :49:35.doesn't have the branding right in terms of selling Wales. The you
:49:35. > :49:40.have any ideas for her? She has only been in post less than a year.
:49:40. > :49:43.We need to get out there and make sure Wales is a name people do know
:49:43. > :49:50.and are familiar with, and I am sure she will come up with ideas.
:49:50. > :49:59.Any ideas? We were helped very much by events yesterday. We could
:49:59. > :50:03.packager per DVD! The Minister should now leaders forward. Dafydd
:50:03. > :50:07.Elis-Thomas and Nia Griffith, thank you both very much indeed. Next