:01:48. > :01:53.Later in the programme, with an ailing economy, should we be
:01:53. > :02:03.calling time on free prescriptions and other benefits handed out by
:02:03. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :35:26.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2003 seconds
:35:26. > :35:30.Hello er I am Aled ap Dafydd and on the Sunday Politics Wales. We all
:35:30. > :35:35.get them free of charge even though some of us could afford to pay for
:35:35. > :35:39.them, should free prescriptions come to an end?
:35:39. > :35:44.And is the bark of a dog worse than it spite? It seems not as the
:35:44. > :35:49.government launches a consultation on micro chipping dogs after 500
:35:49. > :35:53.attacks in three years. Being kept firmly on early this
:35:53. > :35:59.morning, Derek Vaughan and Baroness Randerson.
:35:59. > :36:04.In the news this week, at the announcement that the �365 million
:36:04. > :36:10.wind farms scheme in your part of the world has been given the go-
:36:10. > :36:14.ahead. Is that good news? achieve a Secure energy supply at a
:36:14. > :36:18.reasonable costs for consumers, we need at technology makes and that
:36:18. > :36:24.includes nuclear, gas in the short term and it includes renewable
:36:24. > :36:28.energy and wind is a key part of that. What I don't like is when we
:36:28. > :36:34.get planning applications in for hundreds of wind farms in the same
:36:34. > :36:39.location. I feel that it spoils the local landscape and environment. I
:36:39. > :36:44.am in favour of small-scale wind farm schemes. Where do you stand on
:36:44. > :36:48.the, not in my backyard argument first is the renewable energy
:36:48. > :36:54.argument? The Welsh Liberal Democrats have consistently said
:36:54. > :36:58.ever since the Welsh government produced its renewable energy
:36:58. > :37:03.strategy back about eight years ago, we have consistently said that
:37:03. > :37:10.there was an over-reliance on wind. It is understandable because wind
:37:10. > :37:17.was easy energy, but it now needs to move to a much more diverse
:37:17. > :37:22.range of pressures to ensure that we get a complete range of
:37:22. > :37:26.renewable energy. Solar power, a wave power, tidal power, we need to
:37:26. > :37:31.be moving to that fall range because I do understand why people
:37:31. > :37:36.feel that in parts of Wales, the landscape is totally dominated by
:37:36. > :37:40.wind farms. We will talk again shortly.
:37:40. > :37:47.Free prescriptions and hospital car-parking are two other series of
:37:47. > :37:52.new universal benefits in June -- introduced under Welsh devolution.
:37:52. > :37:55.Proudly promoted by ministers, others see them as a luxury where
:37:55. > :38:00.the economy is weak. Leading business experts are calling for
:38:00. > :38:03.such schemes to be thoroughly reassessed and dropped if there is
:38:03. > :38:09.little evidence they are significantly boost in prosperity
:38:09. > :38:13.and jobs. I'm on the Wales coast path on the
:38:13. > :38:17.Glamorgan Heritage Coast. Open just last week, it is the first time the
:38:17. > :38:23.coast path has gone all the way around the country. If you go that
:38:23. > :38:27.way, you will end up on the River Dee eventually. In that direction
:38:27. > :38:32.it will take you to Chepstow. The Welsh government believe that
:38:32. > :38:37.tourism writer along this stretch will get a significant boost and
:38:37. > :38:41.there is a call for this sort of government spending as a public
:38:41. > :38:46.finances grow type. In Wales we no longer pay for
:38:46. > :38:50.prescriptions, museum entry or parking in hospitals. There are
:38:50. > :38:59.free school breakfasts and bus travel if we are over 60 or have a
:38:59. > :39:05.disability. Brian Morgan believes it is time to consider what such
:39:05. > :39:09.schemes mean for the economy. Should the answer be, not a lot? He
:39:09. > :39:15.once budgets diverted into projects to boost prosperity and private
:39:15. > :39:20.sector jobs. Unfortunately, somebody came up with an idea, this
:39:20. > :39:24.would be good, why don't we have free car-parking in hospitals? Why
:39:24. > :39:29.don't we have free bus passes? Great when the money is there, but
:39:29. > :39:34.we are now strapped for cash and these projects are not cheap. If
:39:34. > :39:42.you were to put together all of what I call a free lunch projects,
:39:42. > :39:49.they come to 60-100 million. That is actually the equivalent to the
:39:49. > :39:52.amount of money that we spend on our trunk road system. And M4
:39:52. > :39:56.relief road, electrification of Valley Line trains, two schemes
:39:56. > :40:02.Brian Morgan were believed would put fire in the Welsh economy his
:40:02. > :40:06.belly. There is no alternative now. Difficult decisions have to be made.
:40:06. > :40:14.If we don't make them, I feel we will continue in the wrong
:40:14. > :40:19.direction in terms of going from 74% of GPA per head down to 70%.
:40:19. > :40:22.Nobody wants us to go in that direction and it is vital that the
:40:22. > :40:27.assembly government takes the difficult decisions and focuses,
:40:27. > :40:32.from now on, its expenditure profile on things that really
:40:32. > :40:36.matter to the economy and to jobs. Our invitation to a Welsh
:40:36. > :40:39.government minister to come on the programme was declined, but Andrew
:40:39. > :40:45.Davis was a senior Cabinet figure throughout the period when the
:40:45. > :40:50.various schemes were introduced. is an invest to save. If you can
:40:50. > :40:54.get people staying independent longer, it keeps them out of the
:40:54. > :40:58.health service and hospitals and that is there for saving money in
:40:58. > :41:02.the NHS. 48 per sense of the Welsh Government's budget goes on the
:41:02. > :41:06.health service so anything that can reduce demands on the health
:41:06. > :41:10.service will benefit, not just Welsh government, not just public
:41:10. > :41:20.services, but the economy. In a statement the Welsh government
:41:20. > :41:46.
:41:46. > :41:51.Of the economy, the spokesperson Looking back on devolution as first
:41:51. > :41:56.decade, Andrew Davies reckons an employment and wage rises compared
:41:56. > :42:04.well with the rest of the UK, yet the fundamental weakness remain.
:42:04. > :42:09.Wales is still very much a branch economy country where, for example,
:42:09. > :42:14.it steel companies, Ford and others, their headquarters are elsewhere
:42:14. > :42:21.have so the crucial decisions about Investment are often made outside
:42:21. > :42:25.of Wales. When there is a downturn and the recession, decisions about
:42:25. > :42:29.investment and job losses are not made here in Wales. We are always
:42:30. > :42:33.going to be vulnerable to that until we can continue to build lots
:42:33. > :42:38.more Admiral type companies based in Wales and decisions are made in
:42:38. > :42:44.Wales. It is hoped that the Wales coast path will be is a tourism
:42:44. > :42:48.industry for many decades. It is a tangible scheme whose benefits are
:42:48. > :42:52.easy to understand. Welsh ministers believe that free prescriptions and
:42:52. > :42:56.three breakfast, for example, also this the economy by raising
:42:56. > :43:01.education and health levels. As public finances get tighter and
:43:01. > :43:06.tighter, we can expect more arguments over whether Wales is on
:43:06. > :43:10.the right track dishing out the so- called freebies.
:43:10. > :43:15.In the words of Brian Morgan, great schemes when the money is there,
:43:15. > :43:20.not so great when we are in a period where we have no money.
:43:20. > :43:25.are definitely schemes that were conceived in the boom time so the
:43:25. > :43:29.product of the good times when many was plentiful. I don't think the
:43:29. > :43:34.government in Wales would have invented them nowadays when money
:43:34. > :43:40.is so tight. When you look at the economy and you look at the state
:43:40. > :43:47.of Wales in general and our society, the problems, such as poor health,
:43:47. > :43:56.go back to our poor economic status. High levels of unemployment and
:43:56. > :44:00.high levels of poor education as well, lack of qualifications. So
:44:00. > :44:05.the Liberal Democrats have always emphasised and indeed in the last
:44:05. > :44:09.Budget, use their influence in the assembly to make sure that the
:44:09. > :44:14.money went to the pupil premium to deal with the poorest children and
:44:14. > :44:19.to stimulate the economy. So we reckon that that is why you
:44:19. > :44:24.concentrate, but having said all that, it is a very brave politician
:44:24. > :44:29.who decides to cut those free offers. When you go to the pharmacy
:44:29. > :44:34.to get your prescription, are you slightly embarrassed that you are
:44:35. > :44:39.not paying for it because the quip that the Conservatives make is that
:44:39. > :44:44.this is by Angella for millionaires. I'm not saying that you are a
:44:44. > :44:48.millionaire, but you take the point. Maybe in some ways, but the policy
:44:48. > :44:54.is not designed for people like myself, it is designed for all
:44:54. > :45:00.people in Wales. The mistake some people make is they confuse revenue
:45:00. > :45:05.funding and capital funding. Even in the time when people did pay for
:45:05. > :45:10.prescriptions, 88% of people didn't actually pay for prescriptions, so
:45:10. > :45:15.it is the wealthy or the comfortable lee of 12%, you could
:45:15. > :45:20.argue, who have benefited. I hear those arguments, but there is no
:45:20. > :45:28.doubt that this particular policy is very popular. We have seen that
:45:28. > :45:33.in the recent Assembly results and in the local government results.
:45:33. > :45:36.Apart from maybe a Conservative. It is popular. One of the arguments is
:45:37. > :45:42.that people who actually needed prescriptions were deterred from
:45:42. > :45:46.doing so because they could not afford it. There was an assessment
:45:46. > :45:50.made of this policy three years after it was introduced and it said
:45:50. > :45:55.that since 2000, the increase in prescriptions has fluctuated
:45:55. > :46:00.between 3.9% and 6% with no unusual increases following the
:46:00. > :46:04.introduction of the policy. In fact, there were some big a year-on-year
:46:04. > :46:08.percentage increases in the number of prescriptions dispensed before
:46:08. > :46:12.the policy came into effect. In other words, people who could not
:46:12. > :46:17.afford all who had perceive they could not afford, actually could
:46:17. > :46:24.afford to pay for them. anecdotal evidence that I got when
:46:24. > :46:28.I was health spokesperson were from GPs that people were going
:46:28. > :46:34.unnecessarily to see their GP on many occasions to get stuff that
:46:34. > :46:39.actually was a matter of very small amounts of money. These were people
:46:39. > :46:44.who could afford to go to the chemist and by the prescription. I
:46:44. > :46:48.think really you have to look at whether it is ineffective of
:46:48. > :46:53.improving the health of the nation. At that time, my point was that
:46:53. > :46:57.this was 40 to �50 million extra per year that is being spent on
:46:57. > :47:04.prescriptions. Would that money be better spent actually in the
:47:04. > :47:08.hospitals of Wales shortening the waiting times. It was built by
:47:08. > :47:12.Andrew Davies as an invest to save scheme. If it was turning out that
:47:12. > :47:17.this was keeping people out of hospitals, why do we have a health
:47:17. > :47:21.service which is creaking? Consideration might be worse, but I
:47:21. > :47:25.want to come back to the second side of this argument, whether we
:47:25. > :47:29.should spend money on big infrastructure projects and I think
:47:29. > :47:33.we should. There is a huge amount left to be done in terms of
:47:33. > :47:38.rectifying railways and improving our roads and broadband. We need to
:47:38. > :47:42.find funds to do that. I'm not sure that taking money from the health
:47:42. > :47:47.service is the way to do that. We should be looking at European
:47:47. > :47:51.structural funds. Let's spend some of that the you money on big
:47:51. > :47:54.infrastructure Prof -- projects that will make a big impact. Do you
:47:54. > :47:58.think politically it would be impossible to reverse these
:47:58. > :48:03.policies. What the voters do not like is something that is here
:48:03. > :48:08.today and gone tomorrow. Absolutely. If you take something away from
:48:08. > :48:12.somebody they will let you know. I'll Wednesday the Welsh government
:48:12. > :48:17.launches an introduction to micro chipping dogs. In the last three
:48:17. > :48:22.years there have been 500 attacks in Wales. Julie Morgan is bringing
:48:22. > :48:26.forward a Private Member's Bill introducing that owners take
:48:26. > :48:31.responsibility for their pets. legislation is to look after the
:48:31. > :48:36.welfare of the dogs to begin with and compulsory micro chipping will
:48:36. > :48:40.make it easier for lost dogs to be reunited with owners. It is trying
:48:40. > :48:45.to get responsible dog ownership and also to protect children and
:48:45. > :48:50.other human beings, really. The concentration is on ID'd, not the
:48:50. > :48:54.breed. The have concentration in the dangerous Dogs Act whereas any
:48:54. > :49:04.dog can be dangerous in the same way that any dog can be a loving
:49:04. > :49:06.
:49:06. > :49:10.dog. Dog owners love their dogs and All of that. The I suppose that
:49:10. > :49:16.micro chipping dogs would make it easier to catch or trace the owners
:49:16. > :49:19.of dogs who are responsible for these attacks, but it is not going
:49:19. > :49:25.to decrease the amount of the tax, is it?
:49:25. > :49:30.Not immediately, but I think over a period of time it would change the
:49:30. > :49:36.attitude towards keeping dogs. I am old enough to remember the time
:49:36. > :49:42.when you had to have a licence to have a dog. It was 37p in March to
:49:42. > :49:45.many and at that point, that was a significant amount of money. So you
:49:45. > :49:51.only went into dog ownership in those days if you could afford that
:49:51. > :49:56.because people were prosecuted for not having a licence. I think we
:49:56. > :50:01.have a problem, particularly in some of our poorest areas, some of
:50:01. > :50:06.our large estates, with a number of stray dogs. The number of attacks
:50:06. > :50:09.is the tip of the iceberg of the problem because there are loads of
:50:10. > :50:15.little children and elderly people who are really quite frightened to
:50:15. > :50:18.walk around their local streets because of stray dogs. I think that
:50:18. > :50:23.this Bill is an essential and important way of getting the
:50:23. > :50:28.problem under control over a period of time. Oddly going to see
:50:29. > :50:34.irresponsible dog owners going to great lengths to avoid chipping at?
:50:34. > :50:37.Some people may try to avoid the law. Different people in different
:50:37. > :50:42.circumstances try to avoid the law, but it does not mean this isn't a
:50:42. > :50:47.good thing. I support micro chipping and think it will be good
:50:47. > :50:51.for the dogs, owners and society. How are enforceable is such a
:50:51. > :50:56.scheme? It seems to work in Northern Ireland and Scotland. I
:50:56. > :51:02.think it is a very good thing for us to be looking at this here as a
:51:02. > :51:06.problem in Wales and I believe there is consultation going to take
:51:06. > :51:12.place in England as well. I think it is the way we are moving across
:51:12. > :51:14.Britain. This consultation is so important and no doubt the Welsh
:51:14. > :51:19.government will want to consult with local authorities because they
:51:19. > :51:23.will be asked to do most of the enforcement. If local authorities
:51:23. > :51:29.have more power, those responsibilities will Cullis some
:51:29. > :51:39.cost. We must press on. Time for a quick look back at the week in 60
:51:39. > :51:43.seconds. Some hospital services are in
:51:43. > :51:48.danger of collapse without radical changes to the way their NHS is run
:51:48. > :51:52.according to the Welsh Institute of Health and Social Care. It said
:51:52. > :51:56.centralising some services could reduce the risks of unnecessary
:51:56. > :52:00.disability and even death. The UK government approved plans
:52:00. > :52:05.for a new wind farm in South Wales that could produce electricity for
:52:05. > :52:10.more than 200,000 homes. The 76 turbine is could generate more
:52:10. > :52:15.power than any other onshore wind farm in Wales and England.
:52:15. > :52:19.Plaid Cymru said there should be changing the rules of the National
:52:19. > :52:24.Assembly so that members could face disciplinary action if they behave
:52:24. > :52:28.dishonourably. Comments came after Keith Davies bought the
:52:28. > :52:31.distribution into disrepute after a drunken night out.
:52:31. > :52:36.And politicians united to ensure Cardiff City play in blue next
:52:36. > :52:44.season. Question marks remain over the future direction of the
:52:44. > :52:49.football club. One of the issues which did not
:52:49. > :52:52.make our highlight, but is a good talking point, are the comments by
:52:52. > :52:56.the presiding officer of the assembly is said that she would
:52:56. > :53:02.like to see 80 assembly members rather than 60 who currently sit
:53:02. > :53:06.there. Controversial at a time when politicians are not overly popular
:53:06. > :53:11.with the electorate? They say timing is everything so although
:53:11. > :53:15.they may be needed, now is not the time. Sometime in the future I
:53:16. > :53:20.think we need to look at that. further law-making powers in the
:53:20. > :53:25.establishment, do you think that there is the capacity, to 60
:53:25. > :53:28.members have the capacity to scrutinise policy and the work of
:53:28. > :53:34.the government and make laws because the situation in the
:53:34. > :53:37.assembly has changed a lot after last year's referendum. I think the
:53:37. > :53:42.assembly is usually stretched. Assembly members have always been
:53:42. > :53:46.badly stretched in terms of being about to give enough concentration
:53:46. > :53:50.and time to issues in depth. Law- making powers will make it more
:53:50. > :53:57.difficult and are making it more difficult, but I agree with Derek
:53:57. > :54:02.entirely. Mel is not the time. It is worth remembering the new
:54:02. > :54:06.building was built so that it could expand easily to take 80 members so
:54:07. > :54:11.when the time is right, I am sure it will emerge. Can I ask you about
:54:11. > :54:16.the report into the conduct of Keith Davies? Some people are
:54:16. > :54:21.saying that there are not robust enough sanctions in place when a Ms
:54:21. > :54:27.fall short of the contract that some people might expect of them.
:54:27. > :54:30.Do you agree? I was a member of the Standards Committee and the
:54:30. > :54:38.sanctions are very complex and I understand the frustration that
:54:39. > :54:47.people feel about that, but having said that, the publicity and the
:54:47. > :54:51.public ignominy that he has suffered is really bad. Is that
:54:51. > :54:56.enough or should Labour take some action? I think that is enough.
:54:56. > :55:01.Keith Davies has urged -- has done something wrong and had all this