:29:50. > :29:54.Hello I'm Aled ap Dafydd and on the Sunday Politics Wales.
:29:54. > :29:57.Repetitive, formally and lacking in impact. That is the damning verdict
:29:57. > :30:02.of debates and the National Assembly. It is not the views of
:30:02. > :30:06.people who want to close the place down but rather the opinion of 22
:30:06. > :30:11.Assembly Members. We will discuss the impact of Assembly proceedings.
:30:11. > :30:15.And to electrify are not to electrify? Until a business case is
:30:15. > :30:19.made to upgrade the line between Cardiff and Swansea, that seems to
:30:19. > :30:22.remain the question's. Here to guide us through these and
:30:22. > :30:32.many more topics I am joined by Kevin Brennan the Labour MP for
:30:32. > :30:41.
:30:41. > :30:44.Cardiff West, and Helen Mary Jones, Knowing the SNP and how good are
:30:44. > :30:49.and knowing that their country and tactics to use, if they think this
:30:49. > :30:58.is the right time to watch than it is. I thought it was a measured and
:30:58. > :31:05.balanced view. It was about how -- what sort of country and what kind
:31:05. > :31:10.of station doesn't want to be. -- nation. That hit it one that will
:31:10. > :31:15.resonate with the Scottish people. There is a case to be made and an
:31:15. > :31:24.opposing case. And the next 18 months will be the time to make it.
:31:24. > :31:33.I was looking at the list of the people there. This is more than
:31:33. > :31:43.just Alex Salmond's pet project. is about tactics. There will be a
:31:43. > :31:45.
:31:45. > :31:49.single question about the independence. Sean Connery does not
:31:49. > :31:53.even live in Scotland. That is how much she is committed to Scotland.
:31:53. > :32:01.It will be an interesting debate and Alastair Darling put a case
:32:01. > :32:07.very well for those of us who want to keep the United Kingdom together.
:32:07. > :32:13.I am sure we will follow at very closely over the following months.
:32:13. > :32:16.Assembly proceedings follow repetitive and formerly former lap
:32:16. > :32:20.and debates or lack impact. That is the view of Assembly Members newly
:32:20. > :32:25.elected last year in a private report obtained by Sunday Politics.
:32:25. > :32:29.The document also suggests remedies for the problems, including ways of
:32:29. > :32:35.introducing more topical exchanges. But one at Conservative Assembly
:32:35. > :32:37.Member dollars programme the Assembly chamber resembles an
:32:37. > :32:44.European Union Committee Room and needs to be redesigned to look like
:32:44. > :32:48.a Parliament. It seems many of the Assembly
:32:48. > :32:50.members newly elected came down to earth with a bit of a bump when
:32:50. > :32:56.they took their seats in the Assembly met chamber. Their verdict
:32:56. > :33:02.on a Wednesday afternoon session here is damning. It is caned in
:33:02. > :33:07.this report obtained by Sunday Politics. The chair of the
:33:07. > :33:16.committee asked all but one of the 23 members newly elected in 2011
:33:16. > :33:20.what they made of their first year. The Express...
:33:20. > :33:25.They found the format repetitive and formulaic. The topics lacked
:33:25. > :33:29.variety. Debates lacked impact and the Said Business should be more
:33:29. > :33:33.topical. It is Wednesday afternoon and as
:33:33. > :33:39.per the agenda, their Health Secretary is taking questions.
:33:39. > :33:46.Later on the chief adviser to the and Government is taking questions
:33:46. > :33:51.as well. And at the very end of the day, there is a short debate on
:33:51. > :33:58.child asylum seekers. Not a typical Wednesday, perhaps.
:33:58. > :34:02.The main job of any legislator is to pass legislation. You have had
:34:02. > :34:08.some of these rather fatuous, NT debates where they go through the
:34:08. > :34:11.motions, going through the same subjects, time and time again.
:34:11. > :34:18.Welsh Government business on the chamber is on Tuesday, mainly a
:34:18. > :34:27.matter for Ministers. Suggestions were making Wednesday more or
:34:27. > :34:32.interesting. It will encourage more discussion on ideas for laws. There
:34:32. > :34:37.are also proposals for more topical lotions, statements and questions.
:34:37. > :34:42.I think the big innovation is the idea breaking up the format so it
:34:42. > :34:48.is not exactly the same every week and every moment. Obviously it is
:34:48. > :34:53.at the same every week. As I say, at the moment we have a problem
:34:53. > :34:59.with their importance ever makes. We do not seem to relate to the
:34:59. > :35:04.problems that have been identified. In some cases it makes them worse.
:35:04. > :35:09.Previously MPs, Julie Morgan and Simon Thomas became Assembly
:35:09. > :35:16.Members last year. Simon Thomas was more topicality but he is concerned
:35:16. > :35:21.that a dedicated hour each week to use by parties could be lost.
:35:21. > :35:26.had three debates and council tax. Three looks like we're milking is
:35:26. > :35:32.in power. We have to look at how we use our time wisely and structure
:35:32. > :35:36.debates in a slightly more snappy way. That is something we are
:35:36. > :35:41.discussing with an Plaid Cymru. We need to be cautious about losing a
:35:41. > :35:48.whole opposition time. Wednesday debates are very
:35:48. > :35:51.repetitive. Debates are usually on party lines which are less
:35:51. > :35:55.interesting to the public and to us because you know what people are
:35:55. > :36:01.going to see a lot of the time. It would be good to have summed
:36:01. > :36:05.debates Witcher more important to people where you are exposing their
:36:05. > :36:11.issues and tried to come forward with solutions and the app joke
:36:11. > :36:15.debate. Could Angela Burns and Assembly Members since 2007 once
:36:15. > :36:21.more radical change. I would like a chamber relayed in a different way.
:36:21. > :36:28.We look like a committee room from the European Union which way -- and
:36:28. > :36:34.not a Parliament which we are today. There is only 60 of us which in
:36:34. > :36:39.itself is not an issue. If you will disappear for a few hours in the
:36:39. > :36:43.afternoon, it is difficult to get that debate. The Presiding Officer
:36:43. > :36:47.declined to be interviewed. statement from the commission which
:36:47. > :36:51.looks after Assembly staff services and property says she wants more
:36:51. > :36:54.opportunity for members to hold a Government to account and raised
:36:54. > :36:58.issues that matter to their constituents. The statement says
:36:58. > :37:03.the report suggests options to make Wednesday afternoon sessions even
:37:03. > :37:06.more effective in addition to changing already made. It added
:37:06. > :37:12.that Rosemary Butler was listening on a continuous basis to the views
:37:12. > :37:14.of members about how plenary business can be improved.
:37:14. > :37:18.Legislators of the world are asking themselves how they can liven up
:37:18. > :37:22.their sessions and make a more interesting to voters. This report
:37:22. > :37:26.is intended to be discussed within the groups and the Assembly to see
:37:26. > :37:31.if politicians see some merit in this prescription for livening up
:37:31. > :37:34.the Wednesday afternoons. With a former Assembly Member and
:37:34. > :37:39.that MP here we might get some views on that.
:37:39. > :37:42.You have sat on the Assembly from several years. Reading between the
:37:42. > :37:47.lines it sounds as if the complaint is that things are boring. Is that
:37:47. > :37:55.a true reflection of how things are? It depends what you want. If
:37:55. > :38:05.you want entertainment, go to the pictures. This is Government. Most
:38:05. > :38:05.
:38:05. > :38:09.Parliament sit-in rounds. I think looking at it from the outside, I
:38:09. > :38:15.think Wednesday afternoons, I can see why members feel they could do
:38:15. > :38:19.more with them. That opposition space which is precious, but if you
:38:19. > :38:22.have got one party after another bringing forward the same debate
:38:23. > :38:28.week after week, you know what the other parties are going to say, it
:38:28. > :38:32.will not change the Government's wind and anything, and using the
:38:32. > :38:37.committee process more into the chamber, I am attracted by this
:38:37. > :38:42.idea of chairs and committees giving statements about why they're
:38:42. > :38:44.under taking an inquiry. You say that you particularly don't want
:38:44. > :38:49.entertainment like you do want impact. That is lacking according
:38:49. > :38:52.to this report. He also what Assembly Members to be sitting in
:38:52. > :38:59.the chamber, which to be Frankcom some Wednesday afternoons when it
:38:59. > :39:04.comes to the close of play, it is quite empty. Some practical things
:39:04. > :39:10.like putting after no debate which would not be long to do. But I
:39:10. > :39:14.think there are two separate issues. Is it making an impact? And is at a
:39:14. > :39:18.good performance? I think those are often different. If they won more
:39:18. > :39:23.topicality, the presiding officers could change that straightaway by
:39:23. > :39:27.responding positively for questions. If you put those in place,
:39:27. > :39:30.Ministers would answer those urgent questions and we would have that
:39:30. > :39:34.element of topicality. There are things that can be done with the
:39:34. > :39:39.current structures which could make it more topical and debatable.
:39:39. > :39:46.of the positives was that it was different to Westminster. Assembly
:39:46. > :39:51.Members called each other by their first names. You see Assembly
:39:51. > :39:55.Members tapping away. Looking back on reflection, was that a wise
:39:55. > :40:00.thing? A first of all, it is not up to me to tell the Assembly had to
:40:00. > :40:05.run their business. I can express up an opinion about them. I think
:40:05. > :40:12.the Assembly got caught in the 20th century. Helen is wrong, we are not
:40:12. > :40:18.a Victorian parlour, this is medieval. We had these fix
:40:18. > :40:21.computers at the desk, funnily enough in Westminster, up we can
:40:21. > :40:26.use iPad and mobile devices without the constraint of having the
:40:26. > :40:30.keyboard in front of you at the desk. That is what a modern world
:40:30. > :40:33.is much more like. I have advocated in Westminster to go further and
:40:33. > :40:41.have a Twitter ft. So we can engage with the public during the course
:40:41. > :40:46.of our debates. Is it cosmetic? think it is partly cosmetic but
:40:46. > :40:50.there is a point about our proceedings, whatever political
:40:50. > :40:56.forum we're in Bolton, to be engaging. It is not about
:40:56. > :41:01.entertainment but it is to be entertaining for the public. I find
:41:01. > :41:09.that the fact that because someone by their first they mix it personal.
:41:09. > :41:13.And I think people feel that can be discourteous. One of the problems
:41:13. > :41:16.according to some is that there is a lack of Government work to
:41:16. > :41:19.scrutinise at the moment and that is holding the Assembly back.
:41:19. > :41:24.think there is going to be a lot of legislation coming down the
:41:24. > :41:30.pipeline. The standard assemblage has acquired its power before the
:41:30. > :41:33.election. The worst thing you could do as a Government is drop a badly
:41:33. > :41:37.prepared built into the process. You should really scrutinise it
:41:37. > :41:41.properly in draft form first. think that is the key thing. When
:41:41. > :41:45.the opposition parties have got serious business to scrutinise,
:41:45. > :41:55.when you get the legislation coming through, I hear what Kevin Brennan
:41:55. > :41:55.
:41:55. > :42:00.says, you do not want that change, the amount of information coming
:42:00. > :42:03.through the Government is then. It is frustrating looking at -- from
:42:04. > :42:11.the outside not seen those powers being used. When there opposition
:42:11. > :42:15.powers have got that information, they can use it to impact changes.
:42:15. > :42:20.That first-name stuff, it is nothing -- something I never did. I
:42:20. > :42:30.think it risks excluding the public. I always wanted to be called by my
:42:30. > :42:32.
:42:32. > :42:37.full name and always used other people's full name. In the chamber
:42:37. > :42:42.where things the to be more formal. The Welsh secretary, Cheryl Gillan,
:42:42. > :42:45.wants to see a business case for the electrification of the main
:42:45. > :42:49.Paddington-Swansea railway line. The UK Government announced plans
:42:49. > :42:54.to electrify the line as far as Cardiff last year. But the Welsh
:42:54. > :42:58.Government wants to -- wants it to go further west to Swansea and into
:42:58. > :43:03.the valleys. Mrs Gillan said she was pressing the case for Swansea,
:43:03. > :43:08.but she won that you cannot just go ahead on a whim. Our reporter,
:43:08. > :43:11.Tomos Livingstone, has been talking to Iestyn Davies from the
:43:11. > :43:17.Federation of Small businesses who told them Swansea was in danger of
:43:17. > :43:22.being cut off without electrification.
:43:22. > :43:31.By extending the railway, it brings Swansea further to the east and
:43:31. > :43:40.make it easier to get to. Things like electrification could be a
:43:40. > :43:45.good thing. We have good but communication is important. We have
:43:45. > :43:51.a real definable economic Area at that in a tribute to economic
:43:51. > :43:58.growth. How confident are you that this will go ahead. We are hopeful
:43:58. > :44:06.that the rationale has been made. But we are also confident that we
:44:06. > :44:11.will look in -- look favourably at electrifying the valleys as well.
:44:11. > :44:16.How easy will it be to drop that business case? Were you being
:44:16. > :44:22.lobbied hard by business for this line to be electrified as far as
:44:22. > :44:25.Swansea? Yes, it was something that was being considered. Cheryl Gillan
:44:26. > :44:29.has to come up with a better argument. There must be a business
:44:29. > :44:34.case for this, but billions of pounds are being spent on CrossRail
:44:34. > :44:38.in London. A huge tunnel has been created through her own
:44:38. > :44:42.constituency for cosmetic reasons because of the high-speed rail to
:44:42. > :44:46.project. She needs to be arguing in Government and batting for Wales
:44:46. > :44:52.and saying we must extend electrification to Swansea. We must
:44:52. > :44:54.have electrification in the valleys of we are to create a fit for
:44:54. > :45:04.purpose transport systems or our economy can thrive and the long-
:45:04. > :45:10.
:45:10. > :45:17.term. The Tottenham Court Road redevelopment, I think that cost
:45:17. > :45:24.should be matched. It is more complicated than that. It is about
:45:24. > :45:30.doing their economic benefits of the current -- electrification of
:45:30. > :45:34.railways to poorer communities. But I think the Secretary of State is
:45:34. > :45:38.being disingenuous here are pulling a bit of a fast one. It is easy to
:45:38. > :45:41.make the business case which the previous Government had been
:45:41. > :45:45.beginning to do for the electrification all the way from
:45:45. > :45:49.London to Swansea. It is more difficult to make a hard business
:45:49. > :45:55.case from Cardiff to Swansea. I think what she is doing issues are
:45:55. > :45:58.going up back into this core work unfairly because it is going to be
:45:58. > :46:03.hard to make a pure economic business case just for that stretch.
:46:03. > :46:07.You need to look at a whole stretch. Philip Hammond said that there
:46:07. > :46:13.wasn't the user mass in terms of how many people were using the
:46:13. > :46:17.railway between Cardiff and Swansea. You only had one train per hour at
:46:17. > :46:20.off-peak times. There is just not the need for it. The danger could
:46:20. > :46:25.be the you are going to have a private railway for one big
:46:25. > :46:29.business. I think the danger in a way is the opposite. That if you
:46:29. > :46:33.like if you upgrade and electrified the line as far as Cardiff then you
:46:33. > :46:38.start getting any economic desert to the west of Cardiff. That is the
:46:38. > :46:42.real problem. Although there trains run one per hour and there is a
:46:42. > :46:46.drop of passengers after Cardiff, if you are going to bring economic
:46:46. > :46:49.prosperity to all four corners of the United Kingdom, you have to be
:46:49. > :46:54.looking at extending electrification to places like
:46:54. > :46:57.Swansea so we can bring the economic benefits ready across the
:46:57. > :47:07.country. Time for a quick look back at that
:47:07. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:16.political stories which make the headlines last week.
:47:16. > :47:21.Chris Evans as the Prime Minister of Wales would lose weight -- 800
:47:21. > :47:24.of 1,600 police officers and the next three years. Mr Cameron said
:47:24. > :47:28.there had to be a reduction in police budgets.
:47:28. > :47:32.The Welsh Government announced plans to spend three and have
:47:32. > :47:39.billion pounds on health, housing, and transfer schemes or the next
:47:39. > :47:43.three years. The Finance Minister rejected opposition claims that the
:47:43. > :47:48.investment plan was repackaging old announcements.
:47:48. > :47:58.Cheryl Gillan give a statement on the UK Government's plans for the
:47:58. > :47:58.
:47:58. > :48:02.year ahead. And Karen Jones warned that changes to welfare benefits
:48:02. > :48:05.could Het Wales hard. -- Carwyn Jones.
:48:05. > :48:13.The First Minister and Welsh secretary were in Monmouth to greet
:48:13. > :48:18.the Olympic torch as it came to Wales.
:48:18. > :48:22.A final sprint for us. Something which did feature in the news was
:48:22. > :48:27.the green paper on changing the electrical system for the National
:48:27. > :48:33.Assembly. Are you in favour of having less constituencies and 30
:48:33. > :48:37.members are elected on the list? -- electoral system. That should be
:48:37. > :48:41.made in Wales. It should not be ambles from outside. I could see
:48:41. > :48:45.the argument for having a different pattern of constituencies for
:48:45. > :48:51.Assembly Members to MPs. Or we would prefer if we're going to
:48:51. > :48:54.change the system caused -- les go to a single proportional vote which
:48:54. > :48:58.will link constituencies but also bills and the element of
:48:58. > :49:08.proportionality. What would be wrong is for that to be imposed by
:49:08. > :49:09.
:49:09. > :49:13.Westminster. There is a proposal to change the existing system. That
:49:13. > :49:17.seems reasonable. What has happened in Westminster is the
:49:17. > :49:21.disenfranchise anybody who's not the register make it more difficult
:49:21. > :49:23.to register the board. I would not hold your breath that the changes
:49:24. > :49:29.that are being proposed and Westminster are going to get
:49:29. > :49:32.through in the end because there is some evidence that MIB in the