:00:43. > :00:53.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Cameron opens the door to a
:00:53. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:30.referendum with Britain's Later in the programme: A potential
:01:30. > :01:33.disaster, one description of changes to council tax benefit -
:01:33. > :01:43.could it be hitting not only households but also Welsh councils
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :29:48.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1685 seconds
:29:48. > :29:51.Hello, I'm Aled ap Dafydd and welcome to the Sunday Politics
:29:51. > :29:54.Wales. A potential disaster. That's one description of a new benefit
:29:54. > :29:56.system coming in in April. We'll hear why the Welsh Local Government
:29:56. > :29:59.Association is predicting trouble ahead for Council Tax Benefit
:29:59. > :30:02.recipients. And it looks like everyone can borrow money, subject
:30:03. > :30:07.to the banks' approval, apart from the Welsh government. What does
:30:07. > :30:10.Carwyn Jones need to do to get that cash in? Lending us 20 minutes of
:30:10. > :30:20.their time to guide us through those topics and more are the
:30:20. > :30:23.
:30:23. > :30:28.conservative, Nick Ramsay, and Labour's Mick Antoniw. Back in the
:30:28. > :30:33.news this morning David Cameron once again raising the issue of a
:30:33. > :30:38.referendum on the EU. In light of the eurozone crisis, doesn't this
:30:38. > :30:43.subject now have real relevance? think the European Union is going
:30:43. > :30:47.through a State of constitutional flux. If there are going to be any
:30:47. > :30:52.changes which have an impact on the relationship between Britain and
:30:52. > :30:58.the EU I think we have to go back to thinking about a referendum. It
:30:58. > :31:02.is clear there is the reform in the area, partly as a result of the
:31:02. > :31:07.financial crisis. I do not think you can rule it out. What we have
:31:07. > :31:11.seen recently from David Cameron is a move where he has been reaching
:31:11. > :31:15.out to the Conservative Party on things like benefits for example.
:31:15. > :31:20.If there was a Conservative Government in future he would want
:31:20. > :31:25.to take benefit cuts even further. Isn't this another way he is trying
:31:25. > :31:31.to reach out to the fringe of the party? I do not think he is doing
:31:31. > :31:37.it for those reasons. His potential for Europe is good. He has always
:31:37. > :31:41.been sceptical on that front. I think I am glad this is on the
:31:41. > :31:45.table. It is a real possibility which should be considered. We do
:31:45. > :31:50.not know what is going to happen over the next few years with the
:31:50. > :31:56.European Union. We must let the ground Settle and consider this for
:31:56. > :31:59.the future. OK, thank you both for now. A leading figure in Welsh
:31:59. > :32:01.local government is warning a new benefit system, coming in next
:32:01. > :32:03.April, is a potential disaster. Steve Thomas, Chief Executive of
:32:03. > :32:06.the Welsh Local Government Association, told Sunday Politics
:32:06. > :32:09.that UK ministers are devolving council tax benefit to Wales in
:32:09. > :32:12.haste and with huge cuts attached. The changes are part of radical
:32:12. > :32:22.plans to transform the entire benefits system, as Adrian Browne
:32:22. > :32:22.
:32:22. > :32:26.reports. The UK Government describes its welfare reforms as
:32:26. > :32:33.the biggest for 60 years. They will directly affect hundreds of
:32:33. > :32:38.thousands of people in Wales. Many live in places like this which are
:32:38. > :32:42.made up of former mining communities. They want to simplify
:32:42. > :32:48.the benefits system, save money and make sure it will come payments
:32:48. > :32:53.fall consistently as income and earnings rise. Ministers call this
:32:53. > :32:57.making work pay and it is worrying people dependent on best -- these
:32:57. > :33:02.benefits. The Citizens Advice Bureau here are being contacted by
:33:02. > :33:06.more and more people trying to work out where they will stand. One of
:33:06. > :33:12.them was this woman who lives up the road. Years after contracting
:33:12. > :33:18.bacterial meningitis she struggles to walk and is on benefits for a
:33:18. > :33:22.severe Disability, housing and council tax among others. It feels
:33:22. > :33:29.like a sword is hanging over my head. I am just sitting there
:33:29. > :33:39.waiting. I will do my best to make sure that I understand what is
:33:39. > :33:43.going on and hopefully to avoid any major financial issues.
:33:43. > :33:49.ministers consider further possible benefit cuts, this woman fears what
:33:49. > :33:54.the future holds for many people in communities like hers. Nobody I
:33:55. > :33:59.know wants to be stuck on benefits. I was a high earner. I would I want
:33:59. > :34:05.to be sat here all be a virtual prisoner in my own home. Absolutely
:34:05. > :34:10.terrified about what the Government is going to do to me. Under the
:34:10. > :34:14.Welfare Reform Act a whole host of benefits are moving into universal
:34:14. > :34:23.credit. Disability living allowance becomes the personal independence
:34:23. > :34:27.payment. Council tax benefit is being devolved. Steve Thomas of the
:34:27. > :34:32.Welsh Local Government Association says councils lack key information.
:34:32. > :34:38.It is a potential train wreck. Council tax benefits have been
:34:38. > :34:46.devolved to the wealth Government by 2013. It is being devolved in
:34:46. > :34:50.haste and is coming with a large sting in detail. There is a cut of
:34:50. > :34:55.�20 million attached to it. The timescales involved are very tight
:34:55. > :35:01.but to add a huge cut like that towards a major substantial benefit
:35:01. > :35:09.really does cause us concern. you ever seen anything like this
:35:09. > :35:14.before? To give you a scale of it, it is a benefit claimed by 337,000
:35:14. > :35:19.families in Wales. It is the biggest means tested benefit and
:35:19. > :35:25.one quarter of households receive it. The changes we are required to
:35:25. > :35:31.make are huge. It feels like a reliability -- a liability rather
:35:31. > :35:36.than a responsibility that is being transferred to us. The Welsh
:35:36. > :35:41.Government has been kept involved every step of the way. It is a
:35:41. > :35:45.matter for the Welsh Government to implement these areas. For people
:35:46. > :35:51.with disabilities and in need, all these changes we have been making
:35:51. > :35:58.as fast as the UK Government is concerned, is so that we can target
:35:58. > :36:01.and direct benefits and help most to those in need. The Welsh
:36:01. > :36:07.Government disagrees. They were told this week there are many
:36:07. > :36:13.unanswered questions on Council Tax Benefit. Despite meeting last week
:36:13. > :36:17.we still do not know the amount of core funding which will be
:36:17. > :36:26.available for the scheme. We also do not know what the administrative
:36:27. > :36:32.burden will be on Wales in terms of taking this forward as well.
:36:32. > :36:35.welfare reforms taking place over the coming months and years are to
:36:35. > :36:40.fundamentally alter the relationship between the individual
:36:40. > :36:45.and the State. Whether they succeed or fail there could be major
:36:45. > :36:52.consequences for us here in Wales and across the UK for many decades
:36:52. > :36:58.to come. A lot is made of the respective gender between the UK
:36:58. > :37:03.Government and the Welsh Government. We get the respect in getting Welsh
:37:03. > :37:08.ministers saw little notice about these changes? We have heard there
:37:08. > :37:14.have been discussions between the Welsh Government and London. The SS
:37:14. > :37:19.being implemented in April and they will not find out until November
:37:19. > :37:25.the exact details. The need to have discussions. It is no good for them
:37:25. > :37:29.to simply say we do not have the information. This is in essence
:37:29. > :37:34.about localising the council tax system. I am not hearing people
:37:34. > :37:38.seeing it is not a good idea to localise or give the Welsh
:37:39. > :37:48.Government the freedom to make these decisions. And now let's put
:37:49. > :37:53.
:37:53. > :37:58.that issued to be be a power other politician. He is being
:37:58. > :38:04.disingenuous about what is happening. The benefit is being
:38:04. > :38:14.given to Wales but they are cutting it by 10%. We are not being given
:38:14. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:20.the information necessary. One- quarter of Welsh households receive
:38:20. > :38:27.council tax benefit. Some might ask the question What is the Welsh
:38:27. > :38:34.Labour Government doing it since devolution to ensure that less
:38:34. > :38:38.people in Wales are dependent on such benefits. We are, but do not
:38:38. > :38:43.forget, one of the issues with the benefit is that three-quarters of
:38:43. > :38:48.the people in receipt of the benefit are actually in work. One
:38:49. > :38:55.of the biggest issues is low pay. You can be in work, earning, and
:38:55. > :39:00.still entitled to benefit. That is where the debate has come in at the
:39:00. > :39:05.moment about a living wage. It is not just an issue in Wales but
:39:05. > :39:13.throughout the UK. How on Earth, when you have had �2 million taken
:39:13. > :39:18.out of your budget can you face the responsibility? There will be
:39:18. > :39:23.serious consequences. What would you say to the women we saw in the
:39:23. > :39:29.film who has suffered bacterial meningitis, has difficulty walking,
:39:29. > :39:33.and now faces the possibility that her benefits will be cut? She is a
:39:33. > :39:40.person who wants to be out there working that is not in a position
:39:40. > :39:44.to do so. No one is saying anything else. We are really sorry for the
:39:44. > :39:48.situation she is then. The Government is not turning its back
:39:48. > :39:53.on her. But the Government does not feel sorry enough because they are
:39:53. > :40:00.cutting her benefits. There is a responsibility to make sure the
:40:01. > :40:05.economy works in Wales. The situation has to be responsive.
:40:05. > :40:10.they have a responsibility not to cut her benefits? It is not doing
:40:10. > :40:19.that, it is putting the power of the council tax in the hand of the
:40:19. > :40:24.Assembly. That is what this says about. You can give us the
:40:24. > :40:31.responsibility but make sure you give us the money to do the job and
:40:31. > :40:38.a proper timescale. Are you telling us that the 10% cut is not going to
:40:38. > :40:43.have a serious impact on the people we see in our surgeries up and down
:40:43. > :40:48.Wales? The Government has racked up so much debt we have to have cut
:40:48. > :40:52.now. The responsibility of your Government is to get on with
:40:52. > :40:58.improving the economy in Wales so we are not constantly talking about
:40:58. > :41:02.this. Would you concede that targeting benefits at those who
:41:03. > :41:07.really warrant benefit is a good move? Would you can see deer are
:41:07. > :41:12.people out there who are in a position to work but plainly decide
:41:12. > :41:18.just to stay at home? There are, there have been and there probably
:41:18. > :41:23.always will be. This is comparative to be tax avoidance that goes on.
:41:23. > :41:27.We have people on very focused benefits. The danger of creating a
:41:27. > :41:31.general benefit across the border is that you do not focus on the
:41:31. > :41:35.people in the most need. The complexities in the benefit system
:41:35. > :41:41.is that there has been an ambition to focus the money on those in most
:41:41. > :41:45.need. You will have the power here so you can do that. We are not
:41:45. > :41:50.being given the power of the benefit. We are being given one
:41:50. > :41:58.element that has been cut by 10%. We are not being given the time and
:41:58. > :42:03.information to allow us to implement a fairer system. I think
:42:03. > :42:07.that the Assembly should be having more responsibility. Do you support
:42:07. > :42:13.those cuts? I think they are necessary sadly because of the mess
:42:13. > :42:16.this country was left then. People like the women in the film and many
:42:16. > :42:22.thousands up and down the valleys to do not know what their benefits
:42:22. > :42:26.are who are living on the margins, they are low paid, pensioners and
:42:26. > :42:30.the disabled... The Welsh Government can either take
:42:30. > :42:36.responsibility for improving Wales or not. This is a classic example
:42:36. > :42:41.of what is going on at the moment. Generating extra cash is something
:42:41. > :42:44.we often think about and the First Minister is no exception. The Welsh
:42:44. > :42:49.Government is talking to the Treasury about the issue. Cutting
:42:49. > :42:58.back on revenue streams is one way of boosting the coffers says Carwyn
:42:58. > :43:08.Jones. We will create a Revenue scheme -- revenue steam against
:43:08. > :43:08.
:43:08. > :43:14.which we can borrow and I think that is positive. The Severn Bridge
:43:14. > :43:22.will be taken over in 2017, he says the resultant move will lead to
:43:22. > :43:28.lower tolls for motorists. A deal on the bridge would not mean that
:43:28. > :43:32.the toll would disappear but it could possibly be reduced slightly.
:43:32. > :43:42.Will be toll revenue cover the maintenance costs of the bridge? We
:43:42. > :43:43.
:43:43. > :43:52.think it would but we want to ensure this is discussed carefully.
:43:52. > :43:58.Do you agree that giving the Welsh Government control over the tolls
:43:58. > :44:08.on the bridge is part of the Barnett formula? It does pit Will
:44:08. > :44:17.at a disadvantage. I think it is an area that needs to be looked at. --
:44:17. > :44:22.does boot Wales at a disadvantage. You could secure earnings from the
:44:22. > :44:27.bridge, say, 50 million over 10 years, that could go to capital
:44:27. > :44:35.projects, would you be in favour of going down that road? I would. The
:44:35. > :44:40.calls have to come down. -- tolls. We need to be making sure there is
:44:40. > :44:47.not a tax on business. How you do it is open to debate. It needs to
:44:47. > :44:53.be done eventually. There is a big debate about borrowing powers and
:44:53. > :45:00.devolving tax to Wales. Stamp duty for example. These are often
:45:00. > :45:06.referred to as taxes that are not worth much, why would we want them?
:45:06. > :45:10.Some of them help you on focusing on things like economic roots into
:45:10. > :45:17.Wales. The reality, the most important of all the changes that
:45:17. > :45:23.are needed, is actually borrowing powers. We are in a position that
:45:23. > :45:27.Wales is actually the only body that cannot actually borrowed money.
:45:27. > :45:31.On borrowing powers, when budgets are stretched and there is not a
:45:31. > :45:39.lot of money sloshing about, some would say the last thing you want
:45:39. > :45:45.to be doing is borrowing money in case you cannot pay it back?
:45:45. > :45:53.Borrowing is an interesting one. Borrowing in principle, there is no
:45:53. > :45:57.reason the Welch Government should not have it. As long as there are
:45:57. > :46:01.strict parameters I think it would be a good thing. Earlier in the
:46:01. > :46:07.programme you were caring Labour apart for getting us into this
:46:07. > :46:12.massive debt? Borrowing is not a problem so long as it is regulated
:46:12. > :46:17.and done for infrastructure programmes that will give us a
:46:17. > :46:25.large return. I much prefer borrowing to raising income tax
:46:25. > :46:35.which I think would cause all sorts of problems. Time for a quick look
:46:35. > :46:39.
:46:39. > :46:45.back to the last week in its 60 seconds. Pavements could be fined
:46:45. > :46:50.up to �120 if their children regularly play truant. They say
:46:50. > :46:55.help would be Devon and fines would be a last resort. Labour MPs were
:46:55. > :47:01.accused of not wanting to get up early for work over electoral
:47:01. > :47:04.arrangements. The debate is planned for the early hours of tomorrow
:47:04. > :47:14.morning but Labour said it should be debated on the floor of the
:47:14. > :47:17.Commons. Plaid Cymru urged Welsh nationalists to show the same
:47:17. > :47:24.maturity as Sinn Fein politicians following the handshake between the
:47:24. > :47:30.Queen and Martin McGuinness. And Julie Morgan called for a vacant
:47:30. > :47:35.plot of land next to the Senedd to be turned into an allotment. She
:47:35. > :47:45.said she was already growing tomatoes on her Cardiff Bay office
:47:45. > :47:53.windowsill. I do not know how green-fingered my guests are. What
:47:53. > :47:58.about that plot of land? It is a bit of an eyesore. It is. How it
:47:58. > :48:03.BM's have the time to grow cucumbers and tomatoes and things,
:48:03. > :48:13.good luck to them. I find little enough time to eat during D-Day let
:48:13. > :48:13.
:48:13. > :48:22.alone tend to a plot. I have barely enough time to weed my garden
:48:23. > :48:28.during the day. Let's end on a slightly more grown up subject. A
:48:28. > :48:32.proposed fine for appearance of frequent truants. If the parent
:48:32. > :48:38.takes the child to the school gates, there is not much more they can do,
:48:38. > :48:42.is there? I think you have to think very seriously before you start
:48:42. > :48:47.criminalising parents. The problem some parents have with their
:48:47. > :48:51.children actually attending. I think there are not many parents
:48:51. > :48:57.when their children get older especially good do not know where
:48:57. > :49:02.they are. Where there are parents who are deliberately and blatantly
:49:02. > :49:05.violating their responsibility, that might be another matter.
:49:05. > :49:12.should be a last resort. You could end up with some parents who,
:49:12. > :49:16.through no fault of their own, should be penalised. They should be
:49:16. > :49:22.dealt with before so that you are not blaming parents for what is
:49:22. > :49:28.going on. That is it from me for this week. There is no problem --