:01:33. > :01:36.Later in the programme we hear calls from the former broadcasting
:01:36. > :01:46.minister Kim Howells for more resignation from the BBC in the
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :37:29.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2143 seconds
:37:29. > :37:34.wake of the news like child abuse London on this Sunday Politics
:37:35. > :37:39.Wales we will bring you more on the aftermath of the resignation of
:37:39. > :37:45.George Entwistle but we will ask is it distracting from the issues of
:37:45. > :37:54.historic child abuse in North Wales children's homes? I am joined by
:37:54. > :37:59.the former Welsh Office minister and Conservative MP Jonathan Evans
:37:59. > :38:02.and the M P Mark Drakeford. We will speak shortly but first the former
:38:02. > :38:07.Labour broadcasting minister Kim Howells thinks more resignations
:38:07. > :38:12.will follow that of the BBC Director General George Entwistle
:38:12. > :38:18.who stepped down over the handling of a Newsnight investigation in
:38:18. > :38:20.North Wales. I don't doubt that there will be resignations. Those
:38:20. > :38:25.there will be resignations. Those people who should have been the
:38:25. > :38:32.conduit for what was happening on Newsnight through to top management
:38:32. > :38:37.have failed and that is obvious, but the BBC Trust, app which was
:38:37. > :38:42.this relatively new organisation which was constructed to oversee
:38:42. > :38:49.the BBC and to ensure its standards remained high, that has failed as
:38:49. > :38:58.well so it would not surprise me if Lord Patten resigns. That was Kim
:38:58. > :39:06.Howells. Let's get a perspective from North East Wales. The former
:39:06. > :39:11.journalist who worked on covering the inquiry can skate is with us.
:39:11. > :39:17.Let's gather your reaction to George Entwistle's resignation and
:39:17. > :39:20.comments from Kim Howells. Clearly there were dreadful shortcomings in
:39:20. > :39:25.journalism within the Newsnight team but to be quite honest, I am
:39:26. > :39:30.more concerned with getting to the truth of child abuse in North Wales
:39:30. > :39:35.than I am at looking at the management structure of the BBC. We
:39:35. > :39:40.have seen something of a shift in focus from looking at abuse victims
:39:40. > :39:46.to people who were wrongly accused. We will only get to a satisfactory
:39:46. > :39:53.position where we get to the truth and deliver justice by an open
:39:53. > :39:58.publication of the report. Do the revelations over the past 48 hours
:39:58. > :40:04.of mistaken identity, do they do anything to undermine the enquiries
:40:04. > :40:10.the Prime Minister has initiated? No, they must continue. My fear is
:40:10. > :40:16.that what is happening with the BBC at the moment and there will be
:40:16. > :40:20.subsequent attacks on the BBC, but my fear is that journalists may be
:40:20. > :40:25.more timid in the way they pursued proves regarding child abuse. It
:40:25. > :40:31.may harm the prospects of people who were abused coming forward with
:40:31. > :40:35.essential information, but the inquiries must go ahead. The Prime
:40:35. > :40:39.Minister has initiated a review of the inquiry to see whether terms of
:40:39. > :40:44.reference were wide enough and whether they were interpreted in
:40:44. > :40:49.the right way. If that review concludes there were shortcomings
:40:49. > :40:54.then a Hills borough model type of inquiry is necessary. The public
:40:54. > :40:59.must have faith in that inquiry and witnesses and abuse victims must be
:40:59. > :41:05.able to trust it. But you are an Assembly Member for the area up
:41:05. > :41:15.where much of the abuse took place. What are people saying there and
:41:15. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:25.what have they been saying to you Passions are running high. People
:41:25. > :41:29.want the truth. We are living in a world very different to wear the
:41:29. > :41:34.Waterhouse inquiry took place. We now have the internet. People who
:41:34. > :41:39.were not connected to what happened here are now being linked to people
:41:39. > :41:43.filling in the missing pieces. It is essential this issue is
:41:43. > :41:46.investigated fully because otherwise people will not get the
:41:46. > :41:53.justice they deserve and people who are innocent may be wrongly
:41:53. > :41:56.connected to child abuse. You say we live in a different time Cup. I
:41:56. > :42:02.know you have proposed legislation to deal with helping those who come
:42:02. > :42:07.out of care. What does the fact that you have to bring that
:42:07. > :42:12.legislation say about how we as a society treat people in care to
:42:12. > :42:20.this day? I think collectively we all need to put our hands up and
:42:20. > :42:23.say, we failed collectively. Media, politicians, people in that in the
:42:23. > :42:29.past 10 years there have been concerns about the original inquiry
:42:29. > :42:34.but we did not act on them and that is because we have a feast to
:42:34. > :42:39.famine mentality when it comes to children in care. We give large
:42:39. > :42:44.focus to scandals and then children in care are left without any media
:42:44. > :42:47.focus and without sufficient attention by the public. We need to
:42:47. > :42:52.move to a situation where we are determined to ensure that the
:42:52. > :42:56.children who may not be our own but carrying care are looked after
:42:56. > :43:04.properly and protected. The scheme I have been working with will
:43:04. > :43:09.extend the rights of care children beyond the age of 18-21, to insure
:43:09. > :43:17.the sort of lifestyle but your children all mine may enjoy can be
:43:17. > :43:24.extended as well to those who are in care. Stay with us. Jonathan
:43:24. > :43:29.Evans, it is something that Ken touched on, the reference to the
:43:29. > :43:33.Waterhouse report. At the time you were a minister in the Wales office,
:43:33. > :43:39.those terms of reference were being drawn up, questions about the
:43:39. > :43:44.suitability of them now. A lot of nonsense has been talked about that
:43:44. > :43:51.by I agree with Ken that in order to deal with that challenge that
:43:51. > :43:55.has been raised, the Prime Minister was right to announce that two
:43:55. > :43:59.inquiries. First a police inquiry in that anyone who has any
:43:59. > :44:04.allegation in relation to child abuse brings that to the attention
:44:04. > :44:10.of the police and that we undertake a detailed inquiry into that. The
:44:10. > :44:15.second part is the judicial review of the terms of the Waterhouse
:44:15. > :44:22.inquiry. I am disappointed that over the last week, in the course
:44:22. > :44:30.of this feeding frenzy, I have seen people call into question the
:44:30. > :44:34.integrity of Lord Waterhouse. The inquiry was a public one. More than
:44:34. > :44:40.200 people who made complaints of abuse were before the inquiry and
:44:40. > :44:46.in fact many of them represented. Steve Messham, and I must say he is
:44:46. > :44:51.the real victim in all of this, no one is in any doubt that he was
:44:51. > :44:56.abused but what is the situation now in which a programme has been
:44:56. > :45:03.broadcast in which it is claiming he has identified this person. The
:45:04. > :45:08.more you look into that, the more concerned there will be.
:45:08. > :45:13.Director General has resigned over the news nice story that you speak
:45:13. > :45:19.about. You were in government with Chris Patten, Crim how waltz, he
:45:19. > :45:24.suspects that he will resign. may see a situation like that but
:45:24. > :45:28.it is premature to be talking about it now. The BBC needs leadership at
:45:28. > :45:37.this time and I observed George Entwistle's performance yesterday,
:45:37. > :45:42.I did but I listened to extracts of it and I think he did the right
:45:42. > :45:52.thing in resigning because there was no bromide in those interviews
:45:52. > :45:52.
:45:52. > :45:57.where he instilled confidence. -- confidence. At the end of the day
:45:57. > :46:02.when we have seen the results of the inquiry into what happened with
:46:02. > :46:08.journalism in this case and that matters in terms of journalism are
:46:08. > :46:12.put in a better front at the BBC, BBC Newsnight, I found over the
:46:12. > :46:17.course of the last week that BBC Wales followed up with drawn
:46:17. > :46:22.dealings, some of the more fanciful things that were being said about
:46:22. > :46:27.his report. That is Canice -- classic journalism. Someone makes
:46:27. > :46:33.an allegation and a journalist checks it out. BBC Wales has shown
:46:33. > :46:38.much more journalism skill and standards than has been the case on
:46:38. > :46:43.Newsnight. This is not an attack on the BBC. It is the fact that the
:46:44. > :46:50.very top programmes, but does appear to be failings. Chris Patten
:46:50. > :46:56.spoke about the need to restore trust in the BBC. Is it that led to
:46:56. > :47:01.suggest the public may have lost trust in the BBC and what is the
:47:01. > :47:06.damage that that could cause? think the opinion polling that has
:47:06. > :47:11.been done about the BBC suggests there has been a damage to trust.
:47:11. > :47:14.That is serious because I am a strong supporter of the BBC as a
:47:14. > :47:19.public broadcaster and his reputation is something all of us
:47:19. > :47:24.all to be concerned about. I have been reflecting on this and I was
:47:24. > :47:29.asking myself why is it I find myself turning to the world's
:47:29. > :47:33.surface of the BBC to hear the news rather than domestic broadcasters
:47:33. > :47:38.and the answer is if you listen to the World Service, you get
:47:38. > :47:42.journalism that reports the News and explains it but does not see
:47:43. > :47:48.itself in the business of trying to make news. They Newsnight programme
:47:48. > :47:54.was a good example of this. You see BBC journalism tipping into wanting
:47:54. > :47:58.to create a news agenda rather than reporting it. In his Knights case
:47:58. > :48:03.there was an investigation and sometimes as a result it does
:48:03. > :48:07.create the news. Is there a danger that those kind of investigations
:48:07. > :48:12.now in the wake of what has happened could be put on the back-
:48:12. > :48:17.burner and we will not seek such important ones being undertaken?
:48:17. > :48:23.There is absolutely a proper role for decent, a genuine investigative
:48:23. > :48:27.journalism, properly carried out, down to the high standards. When
:48:27. > :48:32.that tips into something that haste to try and create a news agenda, or
:48:32. > :48:37.where you stop doing those basic checks and you wind up in the
:48:37. > :48:42.position that Newsnight found itself in. The BBC did not do the
:48:42. > :48:46.investigated journalism here, they outsourced it to the Bureau of
:48:46. > :48:51.investigative journalism and the journalist who reported on it was
:48:51. > :48:56.someone involved with Steve Messham. Hardly was the most independent
:48:56. > :49:01.person. When we have done the inquiry we will find that is
:49:02. > :49:07.probably one of the major flaws but it is not good enough to sate a --
:49:07. > :49:17.for Newsnight to say we have a few pals here, in this organisation,
:49:17. > :49:22.let's put this as the front piece... The BBC should get back to
:49:22. > :49:27.investigated journalism but do it itself and not a source it took the
:49:27. > :49:31.shadow we organisations. Ken, you covered some of the proceedings of
:49:31. > :49:36.the Waterhouse inquiry. Do you think it does need looking at
:49:36. > :49:41.again? I do believe we need to look at it again and people are
:49:41. > :49:47.demanding it and the only to those victims. With regards to the media
:49:47. > :49:53.I have concerns that some of the most fragile people are being
:49:53. > :49:57.mistreated. We need to be careful with how we deal with those he who
:49:57. > :50:03.were abused. It is incredibly important that we do not just put
:50:03. > :50:06.them in front of a camera and I have real concerns in the
:50:06. > :50:12.environment we live in these days with very aggressive journalistic
:50:12. > :50:17.methods, that people could be very hurt. Journalist need to approach
:50:17. > :50:21.this in a very sensitive and dispassionate way, that is very
:50:21. > :50:26.difficult but it needs to be done if we are to reach the truth of the
:50:26. > :50:32.matter. Jonathan Evans, we know George and was a has resigned. This
:50:32. > :50:37.story has been in the news everywhere for a whole week and
:50:37. > :50:42.repeated across other networks never mind just the BBC. Is there
:50:42. > :50:49.any shoot there? No one comes out of this well. The Prime Minister
:50:49. > :50:54.was right to set up those two inquiries. I Marseilles as well his
:50:54. > :51:04.very firm an angry response to Philip Schofield when he engaged in
:51:04. > :51:05.
:51:05. > :51:10.that stand in front of the cameras, that... No one has applauded the
:51:10. > :51:15.Prime Minister for the way he dealt with that. ITV have twice apologise
:51:15. > :51:20.for the fact that someone might have been able to see the list.
:51:20. > :51:25.They might have ended up in court over it and yet ITV said that as
:51:25. > :51:29.far as they are concerned, the incident is closed. I might have
:51:29. > :51:34.strong reservations about journalistic standards on Newsnight
:51:34. > :51:39.but they are as nothing compared to the arrogance of ITV in saying that
:51:39. > :51:44.they are not prepared to look further at what happened to Philip
:51:44. > :51:50.Schofield behaving in that appalling manner. Can is
:51:50. > :51:56.gesticulating. Just briefly mentioned the Prime Minister. It is
:51:56. > :52:00.essential that all party politics is removed from this. It is too big,
:52:00. > :52:05.important an issue to have party politics coming into it. The real
:52:05. > :52:11.test will be as a consequence of the review into the Waterhouse
:52:11. > :52:18.inquiry whether the prime minister will authorise a Hill's poor start
:52:18. > :52:22.inquiry into abuse in the UK. you. This Thursday is polling day
:52:22. > :52:27.to choose Wales and England's first police and crime commissioners
:52:27. > :52:32.there will be four commissioners in well with the aim of holding the
:52:32. > :52:36.police and chief constables to account. For the last time, the new
:52:36. > :52:42.commissioners will said local crime fighting priorities and control
:52:42. > :52:49.budgets. They will make the police accountable not to run policing. In
:52:49. > :52:59.recent weeks we have featured the Brent, north Wales police forces.
:52:59. > :53:06.
:53:06. > :53:12.This week week go to Dyfed Powys. The Dyfed Powys... A big rural area
:53:12. > :53:16.with a relatively small population of about 500,000. We are
:53:16. > :53:23.consistently lower crime levels and elsewhere, recorded crime fell 1%
:53:23. > :53:30.in the year to June. Its budget is Wales's smallest, �95 million. By
:53:30. > :53:35.2015, cuts of 12 million are needed. 55 Police officer posts are going
:53:35. > :53:41.but there will be 66 additional community support officers. Band D
:53:41. > :53:46.council tax payers pay �198 a year for the police. Just two candidates
:53:47. > :53:50.are standing. It is a head-to-head between the Conservatives and
:53:50. > :53:55.Labour. The Conservative candidate is Christopher Salmon, a former
:53:55. > :53:59.soldier. Crime happens on the streets in our community so that is
:53:59. > :54:05.where we need the police. We need to focus on the areas that are
:54:05. > :54:07.particularly bad to make the most of the resources. We need to
:54:08. > :54:15.protect people and that means tackling crime is that make
:54:15. > :54:22.people's lives difficult. Stan been for Labour is Christine weather, an
:54:22. > :54:27.ex AM and agricultural minister. People will vote for me as an
:54:27. > :54:31.experienced campaigner and I will campaign on their behalf. Someone
:54:31. > :54:34.who listens to what communities need and make things happen for
:54:34. > :54:41.them. Someone who is used to holding large institutions to
:54:41. > :54:45.account. Voting is days away on Thursday 15th November. If you go
:54:45. > :54:48.to our online pages, you can find out more details about candidates
:54:48. > :54:52.for all four of the Welsh police forces.
:54:52. > :54:58.It is not just the police commissioner elections this
:54:58. > :55:01.Thursday. There was also by election. It has been caused by the
:55:01. > :55:05.decision of Alun Michael to stand down so he can run for Police
:55:05. > :55:09.Commissioner. It has been in Labour hands for 30
:55:10. > :55:17.years and in that time, Cardiff South and Penarth has had only two
:55:18. > :55:24.MPs. Stephen Doughty is the man striving to be its third Labour MP.
:55:24. > :55:26.Labour had a bath of 4,700 votes over the nearest rivals in the last
:55:26. > :55:30.general election but the Conservatives did narrow the gap
:55:30. > :55:35.last time and Cardiff councillor Craig Williams will be trying to
:55:35. > :55:42.make further inroads. Nick Clegg joined the Lib Dem candidate on the
:55:42. > :55:48.campaign trail. The party has targeted parts of this constituency
:55:48. > :55:55.traditionally but the Lib Dem MP candidate task is to improve on its
:55:55. > :56:01.third place last time. Taking a break Plaid Cymru are saying they
:56:01. > :56:07.are taking a break. They claimed they are on the up. There was more
:56:07. > :56:11.information on nine. You will also find details about the UK
:56:11. > :56:15.Independence Party, the Green Party, Socialist Labour and the Communist
:56:15. > :56:25.Party of Great Britain who are also fielding candidates.
:56:25. > :56:28.
:56:28. > :56:32.Time for a look back at some of the The Welsh Government agreed a deal
:56:32. > :56:36.with Plaid Cymru to ensure its budget for the next year is passed
:56:36. > :56:45.with only half the 60 seats in the Chamber, the Labour administration
:56:45. > :56:49.cannot pass a budget alone. Clyde will abstain war of the crucial
:56:49. > :56:53.vote. They have of Minister Les Leigh Griffiths is considering
:56:53. > :56:55.setting tougher targets for the ambulance service to respond to
:56:55. > :56:59.emergencies. She announced the review which will
:56:59. > :57:05.also look at the way the service is one and his relationship with
:57:05. > :57:09.health boards. Under inquiry into the future of
:57:09. > :57:14.dairy farming was opened by MPs on the Welsh Affairs Select Committee
:57:14. > :57:19.as they left London for Aberystwyth. They are looking across Bordeaux
:57:19. > :57:23.World Connectivity. They gathered evidence on this as revealed on a
:57:23. > :57:32.Tweet. The committee a getting first-hand experience on mid-Wales
:57:32. > :57:37.transport problems. We have been delayed in Birmingham.
:57:37. > :57:43.Those politicians delayed in Birmingham, we are glad to see both
:57:43. > :57:47.of ours in the studio. The police commissioners elections - a dare
:57:47. > :57:52.raise major concern about what kind of turnout we will see. I am sure
:57:52. > :57:58.you have been trying to convince people to vote. What are people
:57:58. > :58:01.saying to you? I have been out there knocking on doors, Labour had
:58:01. > :58:06.never wanted these police commissioners but they will be
:58:06. > :58:10.there doing a serious job so we have been trying to persuade people
:58:10. > :58:14.to get out there and vote but the level of understanding about the
:58:14. > :58:19.election on the doorstep is very low indeed. Beware the thought that
:58:19. > :58:26.it was a sensible idea to hold this election in the middle of November
:58:26. > :58:31.really did not read the most basic textbooks of politics. I was
:58:31. > :58:35.looking at the weather forecast and it did look quite nice and crisp
:58:35. > :58:41.this Thursday but on the point that Mark makes, Labour did not want
:58:41. > :58:46.them, he does not think people will vote, what do you think? It does
:58:46. > :58:51.seem a staggering number of my parliamentary colleagues wanted to
:58:51. > :58:57.stand as candidates. My view is we have always had police authorities.
:58:57. > :59:07.People did not realise they had politicians on police authorities.
:59:07. > :59:11.
:59:11. > :59:17.This is to try and engage more people. Let's move on. Both of you
:59:17. > :59:22.will have been this morning to remembrance services. It is
:59:22. > :59:29.Remembrance Sunday. Coming up to the Sentry anniversary of the First
:59:29. > :59:35.World War. A I was in the middle of Cardiff. It was a very sober and
:59:35. > :59:40.dignified occasion. Very well- attended, very many people there.
:59:40. > :59:44.It was a beautiful morning in which the stillness in the centre of
:59:44. > :59:51.Cardiff was striking and the very thought false sense of people
:59:51. > :59:55.reflecting on nearly 100 years. Jonathan, where were you? A I was
:59:55. > :00:01.in north Cardiff and I have to say it is the biggest attendance I can
:00:01. > :00:06.remember. We are not just looking at what happened in the first and