:01:34. > :01:39.Later in the programme, after a very poor turnout in the police
:01:39. > :01:43.commissioner elections, there is an inquiry under way. We have launched
:01:43. > :01:53.our own investigation and we have pulled an ant -- an MP in for
:01:53. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :41:29.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2376 seconds
:41:29. > :41:36.Hello and on Exposure: The Other Side Of Jimmy Savile, does voter
:41:36. > :41:43.apathy undermine our newly elected police commissioners? -- on the
:41:43. > :41:46.Sunday Politics Wales. And some encouraging news on
:41:46. > :41:53.entrepreneur's. Joining me are the Environment Secretary and the
:41:53. > :42:03.Farming Minister. Let's pick up on the debate -- the Labour MP Nia
:42:03. > :42:07.
:42:07. > :42:11.Griffith and the Liberal Democrat AM Eluned Parrott. I think the
:42:11. > :42:15.important point here is that there are many different types of
:42:15. > :42:22.prisoners. Of course we all think of the worst possible type. I think
:42:22. > :42:26.that on this issue we should be trying to go along with their --
:42:26. > :42:35.the Court of Human Rights and saying, OK, maybe for some
:42:35. > :42:39.prisoners it is appropriate but there is a huge difference. David
:42:39. > :42:44.Cameron said it made him thick -- feel physically sick, the idea of
:42:44. > :42:47.giving prisoners the boat. Do you agree? Not at all. We need to
:42:47. > :42:51.consider this carefully and make sure it does not become a political
:42:51. > :42:56.football. We are talking about people's fundamental human rights.
:42:56. > :43:01.We as the country have always seen ourselves as been a protector of
:43:01. > :43:04.Liberty's and we need to judge these issues carefully when our
:43:04. > :43:09.colleagues in the European Court of Human Rights have made this
:43:09. > :43:14.decision. We will be back with you very shortly. Before we hear from
:43:14. > :43:17.our guests again, Wales has its first ever elected police
:43:17. > :43:23.commissioners. We have Christopher Salmon as Dyfed-Powys, Winston
:43:23. > :43:30.Roddick in North Wales, Allan Johnston in Gwent -- Ian Johnston
:43:30. > :43:35.in Gwent and Alun Michael in South Wales. But what legitimacy do they
:43:35. > :43:42.have after such a low turnout? I am speaking to the Conservative MP for
:43:42. > :43:47.the Vale of Glamorgan, Alun Cairns. 85 % in the electorate have
:43:47. > :43:51.rejected this. I don't accept that they have rejected it. I think
:43:51. > :43:55.there is an issue to consider in terms of process. But the outcome
:43:55. > :44:02.is that we have an elected police commissioner responsible for that
:44:02. > :44:07.strategy, budgeting and within the police authorities in England and
:44:07. > :44:12.Wales. Low democracy is better than no democracy. In the past we would
:44:12. > :44:16.have had police authorities who were councillors from various local
:44:16. > :44:21.authorities who were put on to a committee to help support the Chief
:44:21. > :44:24.Constable. This now is direct electoral responsibility for one
:44:24. > :44:29.individual as the commissioner in order to support the chief
:44:29. > :44:34.constable. We know the Conservatives are -- off for this.
:44:35. > :44:39.Labour were against it but they put candidates up all the same. Alan
:44:39. > :44:43.Michael was very critical, even though he won, of the fact that
:44:43. > :44:49.people did not know who the candidates were. Did you think that
:44:49. > :44:52.was a mistake? We are having an inquiry into it. I think there
:44:52. > :45:02.could have been a wider public debate. We need to look at the role
:45:02. > :45:05.of the media. The fact that the election was taking place on
:45:05. > :45:09.Thursday and one leading radio programme only had it as the 4th or
:45:09. > :45:15.5th item in the news. There needs to be a wider debate about the role
:45:15. > :45:19.of the media and newspapers and how parties could have paid -- played a
:45:19. > :45:24.better part. But process is one element but the outcome is the most
:45:24. > :45:27.important thing, where we have are directed lead -- directly-elected
:45:27. > :45:32.commissioner responsible for the strategy of the police force and
:45:32. > :45:37.the area. You must be disappointed that only 15 % of people turned out
:45:37. > :45:45.to vote? It has been described as an embarrassment. Did you vote?
:45:45. > :45:51.Certainly I did. What was disappointed by the turnout -- I
:45:51. > :45:59.was. But the outcome is the most important. You can draw comparisons
:45:59. > :46:05.with other elections that have taken place. The marriage London --
:46:05. > :46:10.the mayor of London. The turnout was only 30 % when Ken Livingstone
:46:10. > :46:13.was elected. When Boris Johnson was elected it was closer to 50 %. When
:46:13. > :46:23.people understand what the responsibilities are, it is
:46:23. > :46:23.
:46:23. > :46:27.something very different. Let's see what our guests thinks. -- think.
:46:27. > :46:33.He was suggesting that people will learn to love the commissioners, is
:46:33. > :46:37.it time to stop dwelling on the turn out? I think so. We have had
:46:37. > :46:42.this debate, there will be a review and the Electoral Commission will
:46:43. > :46:46.make some suggestions as to how they can improve, but I think these
:46:46. > :46:51.commissioners are now in post, they have an opportunity to lead the
:46:51. > :46:56.debate and the proof of the pudding is not in this -- in the size of
:46:56. > :47:01.the turnout, it is in whether they do their job effectively. I know
:47:01. > :47:04.that your OT -- your party opposed the establishment of the
:47:04. > :47:07.commissioners. Will we be in a situation if Labour when the next
:47:07. > :47:14.election that this will be the only ever election but police
:47:14. > :47:19.commissioners? -- when the next election. We were certainly opposed
:47:19. > :47:24.to the creation. People elect for Parliament and the council. People
:47:24. > :47:30.have been telling me on the doorstep, we expect you to do these
:47:30. > :47:33.jobs. People have been telling me, on principle, they have not been
:47:33. > :47:38.going out to vote. They have been telling me from a practical point
:47:38. > :47:43.of view they can't see how this role will work, with a Tory
:47:43. > :47:48.Government intent on 20 % cuts to the police. A lot of people didn't
:47:48. > :47:51.know anything about it. I think the voters are perceptive. We were
:47:51. > :47:55.certainly speaking to people making a deliberate decision. They were
:47:55. > :48:00.not just apathetic, they were actually choosing not to go, even
:48:01. > :48:05.people who regularly vote. They said, I am not coming out for this
:48:05. > :48:10.one. Other people chose to vote for independent candidate as a protest
:48:10. > :48:12.against the politicisation of this role. I think it is important that
:48:12. > :48:16.the Government takes on that message because frankly I think
:48:16. > :48:23.people have very little faith in what the person is going to be able
:48:23. > :48:28.to do, and that is why they didn't come out. An indictment there off
:48:28. > :48:34.the model, if you like of police commissioners. Do you support the
:48:34. > :48:38.model? I think it is perfectly acceptable to have elected
:48:38. > :48:42.commissioners. I wouldn't want to see that politicised. If you don't
:48:42. > :48:47.believe in the politicisation of the police force, I'm surprised you
:48:47. > :48:50.party chose to stand candidates all across Wales. People are
:48:50. > :48:55.intelligent, they have thought about it carefully and they have
:48:55. > :48:58.gone out and elected in two cases independent candidates with
:48:58. > :49:03.relevant background and experience, and that is the kind of
:49:03. > :49:07.independence we want to see. some of them didn't even know it
:49:07. > :49:13.was happening. The turnout was low in the by-elections as well and
:49:13. > :49:17.people have a clear idea -- idea of what an MP does. Possibly having an
:49:17. > :49:21.election in November, knocking on doors after dark when it is only
:49:21. > :49:25.5:00pm to get the boat out, is very difficult. Alun Cairns suggested it
:49:25. > :49:30.was the Lib Dems in Government that wanted a different date to be
:49:30. > :49:37.elections so that people could vote for this election on its merits. So
:49:37. > :49:40.blamed the Liberal Democrats for the November date? There are all
:49:40. > :49:46.kinds of other elections -- opportunities they could have had
:49:46. > :49:53.for elections. If you want to depoliticise the role and encourage
:49:53. > :49:57.independents, having it on a different date is very important.
:49:57. > :50:01.If you have read at the same time as a council election, the chances
:50:01. > :50:07.are it will get swept up in the political Eilish Bath issues.
:50:07. > :50:13.Labour took one of the four jobs available in Wales. Was there and
:50:13. > :50:23.expansion from you do you would have done better? -- and
:50:23. > :50:23.
:50:23. > :50:32.expectation from you. We didn't want to leave any candidates
:50:32. > :50:36.unopposed. In Mid and West Wales, we only have one Labour MP out of
:50:36. > :50:42.seven constituencies, three Conservative constituencies, and
:50:42. > :50:47.yet we came out with thousands of votes. I think there is are real
:50:47. > :50:55.tide turning now and people are getting fed up with this Government
:50:55. > :51:04.and we may soon see a Labour victory. It seems that we have more
:51:04. > :51:07.budding Lord Sugars and Donald Trumps in our next -- in our midst.
:51:07. > :51:13.The Federation of Small Businesses says that measures put in place by
:51:13. > :51:16.Ms -- by ministers have helped boost the number of entrepreneurs
:51:17. > :51:19.but they say they want a review of the strategy of the Welsh
:51:19. > :51:24.Government as it reaches the halfway stage.
:51:24. > :51:28.A Britain's youngest aspiring entrepreneurs have come to London.
:51:28. > :51:32.Teenage entrepreneurs are not just on our TV screens, they are also in
:51:32. > :51:36.schools up and down the country. For 50 years the charity Young
:51:36. > :51:41.Enterprise has been running programmes in schools to enter --
:51:41. > :51:47.to encourage entrepreneurs of the future. In Wales last year 150
:51:47. > :51:51.student companies were set up. Pupils from Year 11 at this school
:51:51. > :51:59.won awards from Young Enterprise last year for designing and selling
:51:59. > :52:04.products. As long as you have a product and you work behind it and
:52:04. > :52:10.genuinely believe that anybody could do it with the writer Manta
:52:10. > :52:14.determination. There are a lot of skills I have developed and picked
:52:14. > :52:20.up, interpersonal skills, team leading skills, decision-making
:52:20. > :52:26.skills, all of which, I think, along with many more, will be
:52:26. > :52:29.transferable to whatever I do in the future. For the annual
:52:29. > :52:33.entrepreneurship Monitor report shows increasing interest in the
:52:33. > :52:39.early stages of launching a business. Entrepreneurship
:52:39. > :52:43.increased from 8 % to just over 6 % -- under 6 % last year in Wales.
:52:43. > :52:48.Increasing numbers of young people in Wales are showing an interest in
:52:48. > :52:52.business as well. At the University of Wales in Newport that recognise
:52:52. > :52:57.the importance of small and medium- sized businesses as the engine of
:52:57. > :53:00.the Welsh economy. They are hosting a series of events for budding
:53:00. > :53:04.business people as part of global entrepreneurship week. Some
:53:04. > :53:10.students wanted to learn about the creative side -- in the business
:53:10. > :53:13.side of the creative Indus -- industries. I wanted to talk about
:53:13. > :53:18.employing people, all of that kind of stuff, the nuts and bolts of
:53:18. > :53:22.business. I have realised that it is important -- possible to start
:53:22. > :53:28.out if you have the willpower and determination. And the Welsh, is
:53:28. > :53:32.investing almost �4 million a year in youth entrepreneurship and other
:53:32. > :53:36.funds are available slot -- available. The five-year strategy
:53:36. > :53:44.has been broadly welcomed and some would like the Assembly to get more
:53:44. > :53:47.involved. The Welsh Government has done some excellent work and it is
:53:48. > :53:51.delivering to an extent in Wales. We would like to see a detailed
:53:51. > :53:56.progress report from perhaps the National Assembly committee to see
:53:56. > :54:06.how it is delivering, what targets are being met and what outcomes are
:54:06. > :54:07.
:54:07. > :54:12.being delivered. The team who won her the young entrepreneurship
:54:12. > :54:18.award last year are developing a game for the international market.
:54:18. > :54:22.I do feel that they definitely needs to be more help because so
:54:22. > :54:25.many people are coming out of university now and they are
:54:25. > :54:30.qualified, skilled people and they are not having the opportunity to
:54:30. > :54:34.use their skills. The company is one of a falling number of
:54:34. > :54:40.enterprises set up in Wales over the past five years. Confidence
:54:40. > :54:43.seems low according to the monetary report. It found that less than 18
:54:43. > :54:48.% in Wales thought they were good opportunities for starting a
:54:48. > :54:54.business in the next six months. Across the UK it was almost 28 %.
:54:54. > :55:01.There are no doubt of the positive results of the enterprise but
:55:01. > :55:04.confidence in on goal and support is important if we want the young
:55:04. > :55:12.people of today to be the businesspeople of tomorrow are. --
:55:12. > :55:17.ongoing support. There was a call for the committee to look at the
:55:17. > :55:21.strategy. I think it would be an excellent idea and perhaps we could
:55:21. > :55:24.suggest it. It is wonderful to see so many young people going into
:55:24. > :55:28.setting up their own business. What worries me a little is that we give
:55:28. > :55:32.them encouragement to do so, but how much support do we give them to
:55:32. > :55:37.continue the business and make that kernel of an idea successful long-
:55:37. > :55:43.term business? If the Welsh economy is to get a boost but I think
:55:43. > :55:46.everybody agrees it needs, the private sector needs to improve its
:55:46. > :55:53.out but. Is harnessing this entrepreneurship at a young age the
:55:53. > :55:56.way to do it? It is very important of his three and over the years
:55:56. > :56:00.there have been very many initiatives to bring business
:56:00. > :56:06.initiatives into schools but the new generation needs similar input
:56:06. > :56:13.and the important thing is now but with the jobs growth in Wales Fund
:56:13. > :56:16.we have concentrated on the private sector. Over half of the posts
:56:16. > :56:19.being offered to young people are in the private sector and there is
:56:19. > :56:23.another section of them specifically for young
:56:23. > :56:28.entrepreneurs and I think you need both. The real difficulty I see at
:56:28. > :56:33.the moment is the macro economic system in the UK makes it very
:56:33. > :56:36.difficult for any business to make headway. It is a great thing that
:56:36. > :56:40.the Welsh Government is putting money into boosting industry, very,
:56:40. > :56:43.very important, that boost for the private sector, and it is very
:56:43. > :56:47.important that we are getting young people involved in their own
:56:47. > :56:50.businesses and in the private sector. We will leave it there for
:56:50. > :57:00.now. Before we move on we will have a quick look at some of the
:57:00. > :57:03.political events of the last week in 60 Seconds.
:57:03. > :57:08.Alan Michael's decision to successfully stand for Police
:57:08. > :57:11.Commissioner meant there was a by- election on Thursday in his former
:57:11. > :57:16.constituency of Cardiff South and Penarth. Labour confidently held
:57:16. > :57:20.onto the seat, increasing the pet - - a share of the vote by 8 %,
:57:20. > :57:25.although there was a disappointing turnout of 25 %.
:57:25. > :57:29.Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Ward, who currently has a regional seed, said
:57:29. > :57:38.she would stand for a constituency at the next Assembly election. She
:57:38. > :57:41.said it was a risk worth taking. The First Minister said have -- the
:57:41. > :57:45.Welsh governor did not interfere with a report about an NHS
:57:45. > :57:49.reorganisation in North Wales which was rewritten to be more positive.
:57:49. > :57:58.Alan Jones said he had confidence in the national clinical forum
:57:58. > :58:08.which advises health wards. A critical assessment was redrafted
:58:08. > :58:13.after being submitted. Those are some of the political
:58:13. > :58:18.stories of the past week. Let's look forward, though. Joining us to
:58:18. > :58:23.help us do that his political editor Betsan Powys. We are looking
:58:23. > :58:26.to the Silk Commission report. Many people at home will have their
:58:26. > :58:36.Riyaz bricking up. It is looking at ways to make the Welsh Government
:58:36. > :58:36.
:58:36. > :58:41.more accountable for the money it spends. What can we expect to hear?
:58:41. > :58:46.It was set off by the then Secretary of so -- Secretary of
:58:46. > :58:50.State for Wales with the words accountability bringing in areas.
:58:50. > :58:55.It is under the -- under the chairmanship of Paul Silk,
:58:55. > :58:59.considering how Wales ought to be funded in the future. Or two to be
:58:59. > :59:04.accountable for raising some of the money it spends? -- should it be
:59:04. > :59:08.accountable. Looking at what it says about the smaller taxes, but
:59:08. > :59:13.the page everybody will want to get to is the tax that affects
:59:13. > :59:18.everybody, impact -- income tax. heard from Alun Cairns earlier in
:59:18. > :59:24.the programme. I talked to him about the Silk report. This is what
:59:24. > :59:28.he had to say. If there is a suggestion of tax varying powers,
:59:28. > :59:35.it needs to reflect the majority of people. The First Minister has
:59:35. > :59:39.called for some of the most obscure taxes, for which there would not be
:59:39. > :59:48.transparently -- transparency. It if -- if it affects any politician,
:59:48. > :59:52.the public would think long and hard before changing. We can't say,
:59:52. > :59:59.we need more money because we need to spend it on whatever service it
:59:59. > :00:05.might be. 200 pages to read tomorrow when this is published.
:00:05. > :00:08.What we be looking out for? I will be looking for the tax varying
:00:08. > :00:14.powers. It is important for a mature democracy to have the
:00:14. > :00:19.ability to do these things and take responsibility for the actions that
:00:19. > :00:28.they take. That is a thing we will be looking for and we definitely
:00:29. > :00:34.expect or hope to see some of the minor taxes devolved. Nia Griffith,
:00:34. > :00:37.this was a committee set up by the UK Government. Obviously the Labour
:00:37. > :00:41.Welsh Government will have to react to it. That presents some
:00:41. > :00:45.challenges, doesn't it? important thing is that where the
:00:46. > :00:49.Silk Commission might decide it is possible and practical to devolve
:00:49. > :00:53.some tax raising powers, the key thing will be in the negotiation
:00:53. > :00:57.with what happens about the Barnett formula. What is crucial is that we
:00:57. > :01:04.don't lose out here in Wales so that if we are contributing more
:01:04. > :01:09.from one pot we must make absolutely sure that we are then
:01:09. > :01:12.not short-changed in other ways. That will be the crucial discussion
:01:13. > :01:17.following this, how it will work out in practice. For no discussion
:01:17. > :01:21.is complete without a mention of the format -- the Barnett formula!
:01:21. > :01:27.When we saw the All Wales can pensioner couple of weeks back,
:01:27. > :01:35.there was a referendum. When we get this report tomorrow, what happens
:01:35. > :01:39.then? They will be talking about this for some years hence but what
:01:39. > :01:42.will happen straight after is that everybody will turn to the First
:01:42. > :01:48.Minister and say, OK guys, what is your take on this, what are you
:01:48. > :01:54.going to do about this? How do we get there in terms of what you put
:01:54. > :01:57.in place in the borrowing powers? What is your plan now that you have
:01:57. > :02:05.seen what the Commission has told you? We will be turning to the page
:02:05. > :02:11.that explains about a referendum. Will the Commission say that there
:02:11. > :02:21.should be a referendum first? Eluned Parrott, do you think a
:02:21. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.referendum would be necessary? Possibly so, and hopefully not in
:02:27. > :02:31.November. In terms of tax-varying powers, obviously it is a major
:02:31. > :02:35.issue, a far more significant issue than the last referendum. There
:02:35. > :02:39.would be questions if we didn't have a referendum at that time.
:02:39. > :02:43.Nia Griffith, do we need a referendum on the question of
:02:43. > :02:49.income tax? If we are going to make such a big decision, clearly people
:02:49. > :02:54.will want a say. I think it is an academic argued to say that we
:02:55. > :02:58.don't have to, but clearly do politics tells you that it would be
:02:58. > :03:02.pretty cute -- pretty remarkable if we didn't have one. This report has
:03:02. > :03:08.been long in the making. How do you feel a day before a report like
:03:08. > :03:11.this, is it like a cup final? are looking forward to what the
:03:11. > :03:15.detail has to say. We have all made submissions and asked them to look
:03:15. > :03:18.at different things and it will be interesting to see how the
:03:18. > :03:26.representatives of all four parties have worked together to produce a
:03:26. > :03:31.single report. Cup-final day, not quite that excited. Nia Griffith,
:03:31. > :03:36.we have your marker pens at the Cork -- at the ready? Yes, we need
:03:36. > :03:40.to look at the detail and the practicality. For those that might
:03:40. > :03:48.be disappointed that the Silk Commission will is published
:03:48. > :03:53.tomorrow, there is part to, isn't there? Yes, and I will have my
:03:53. > :03:58.marker pen out. It will consider further constitutional change and,
:03:58. > :04:04.given the big changes on the UK wide level, where does Wales fit
:04:04. > :04:10.into that? Thank you very much for coming in this lunchtime. Betsan
:04:10. > :04:13.Powys will be back for the Wales report tonight on BBC One Wales