:01:31. > :01:34.Later in the programme, increasing resistance to antibiotics could
:01:34. > :01:41.lead to more illness and more deaths, according to the doctor
:01:41. > :01:51.responsible for managing the drugs affect us in Wales. --
:01:51. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :37:10.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2118 seconds
:37:10. > :37:12.Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales we hear fears that the
:37:12. > :37:17.increasing resistance to antibiotics could lead to more
:37:17. > :37:19.illness and more deaths. And we also hear fears over the cost and
:37:19. > :37:23.availability of insurance for people with properties in flood
:37:23. > :37:28.areas. Joining me throughout today's programme are two Assembly
:37:28. > :37:31.Members - Labour's Mark Drakeford and Plaid Cymru's Jocelyn Davies.
:37:31. > :37:33.We'll talk in a moment but, first, the Cynon Valley MP, Ann Clwyd,
:37:33. > :37:39.says she intends to meet with campaigning organisations to see
:37:39. > :37:42.how she can help raise nursing standards in "compassion and care".
:37:42. > :37:46.Earlier this week, she described how her late husband died "like a
:37:46. > :37:49.battery hen" because of what she called bad nursing. Speaking on the
:37:49. > :37:52.Andrew Marr show this morning, the Labour MP said she'd been contacted
:37:52. > :37:59.by hundreds of people who've suffered similar experiences. She
:37:59. > :38:03.read out one of the emails she'd received.
:38:04. > :38:09.I must agree with you, the nursing profession is no longer the caring
:38:09. > :38:13.profession. When I sat at my husband's bedside, I did why --
:38:13. > :38:21.wonder why some of the nurses bothered to put on their uniforms.
:38:21. > :38:26.The arrogance and indifference of some left me bewildered. Mark, You
:38:26. > :38:36.watcher of the Assembly's health committee. You hear from nurses and
:38:36. > :38:39.
:38:39. > :38:43.patients all the time. Is this picture one that you recognise?
:38:43. > :38:47.any individual who has experienced ill-treatment or indifference, it
:38:47. > :38:52.is an experience that stays with you for a very long time after that.
:38:52. > :38:58.If you think whether -- if you're asking whether I think that his
:38:58. > :39:03.general, no, it is not. I think the nurses who work in the health
:39:03. > :39:07.service in Wales are by and large very dedicated, very hard-working,
:39:07. > :39:12.and do their very best to provide a service that people will recognise
:39:12. > :39:17.and value. There will be occasions when that does not happen. But
:39:17. > :39:22.anybody who comes across those occasions will be marked by it.
:39:22. > :39:30.When people like Ann Clwyd are raising these points, they need to
:39:30. > :39:34.be looked into, don't they? Yes, they do. I agree with a Mark, but
:39:34. > :39:40.with my experience of the health service, I have not come across
:39:40. > :39:44.that. Everybody has been fabulous. But if you are in a situation with
:39:44. > :39:49.a relative and somebody is indifferent or arrogant, it can be
:39:49. > :39:55.very wounding. It is probably a tiny minority that they need to be
:39:55. > :40:01.dealt with. I agree in part with Ann Clwyd, that we do need to do
:40:01. > :40:06.something about that tiny minority because it is not acceptable.
:40:06. > :40:10.is this issue of compassion in nursing, which was raised at
:40:10. > :40:15.Westminster last week, is it something your committee could look
:40:15. > :40:20.at in the future? We look at it almost all the time because in
:40:20. > :40:25.almost any inquiry that we do, we recently completed a one-day
:40:25. > :40:30.inquiry into diabetes care where nurses are very much in the front
:40:30. > :40:34.line providing services. We hear about this issue regularly. Nurses
:40:34. > :40:42.will tell you that it is often a matter of being given the time to
:40:42. > :40:51.do the job, the pressure they feel under in a very busy health service
:40:51. > :40:54.with there are a lot of demands on them. Maybe it is the system we
:40:54. > :41:01.need to look at rather than thinking it is a few people getting
:41:01. > :41:03.it wrong. We'll stay with health matters.
:41:03. > :41:05.Increasing resistance to antibiotics could lead to more
:41:05. > :41:08.illness and more deaths, according to the doctor responsible for
:41:08. > :41:10.managing the drugs' effectiveness in Wales. Dr Robin Howe from Public
:41:10. > :41:13.Health Wales told this programme that it's imperative that
:41:13. > :41:19.clinicians and patients understand that antibiotics can only be used
:41:19. > :41:23.when they will have the maximum benefit. Here's Brian Meechan.
:41:23. > :41:27.Since their arrival in the 1940s, antibiotics have been on the front
:41:27. > :41:31.line of Medicine's battle against disease but experts are warning
:41:31. > :41:35.that they are becoming increasingly ineffective at a rate that is
:41:35. > :41:39.alarming and irreversible. Some say that time may be coming when we
:41:39. > :41:43.have to think about life after the drugs that revolutionised medicine.
:41:43. > :41:46.Robin Howe is the doctor who has the task of minimising guessing
:41:46. > :41:52.Wales that are caused by thugs developing a resistance to
:41:52. > :41:58.antibiotics. Each year in Wales, if there are about 2,000 bloodstream
:41:58. > :42:05.infections caused by a e.coli. That is the, the scores of the
:42:05. > :42:09.bloodstream infections across the UK. --, nest. It is a very serious
:42:09. > :42:14.infection because one-in-five people who have a restrain
:42:14. > :42:19.infection with that Burke will die and so an increase in those
:42:19. > :42:24.infections is an extremely serious problem. Resistance to antibiotics
:42:24. > :42:29.has seen increasing in Wales over the last seven years. There are now
:42:29. > :42:32.superbugs like MRSA that are immune it to the drugs. For more
:42:32. > :42:36.antibiotics are used, the more likely it is that any that you Rea
:42:36. > :42:40.will evolve to build up a resistance to them. One expert from
:42:40. > :42:44.Cardiff University, Professor Les Baillie, he describes it as an arms
:42:44. > :42:49.race between those developing drugs and the bacteria developing
:42:49. > :42:59.resistance. He says it is a race we are losing. If I hate to say we are
:42:59. > :43:00.
:43:00. > :43:03.heading back to the pre- antibiotic days. People are trying to develop
:43:03. > :43:07.strategies of controlling the antibiotics they used so they
:43:07. > :43:11.always have something in reserve. It would be horrendous if we ever
:43:11. > :43:16.came to the situation where there was nothing left in the cupboard as
:43:16. > :43:19.it were. We have been very lucky in the UK with the industry developing
:43:19. > :43:25.new antibiotics to fight in different ways and different
:43:25. > :43:29.organisms. Off but as they evolve, it gets harder. To develop
:43:29. > :43:32.antibiotics from concept to market takes millions of pounds and at
:43:32. > :43:37.least 10 years. For Surgeon Rhidian Morgan-Jones says there are real
:43:37. > :43:42.concerns about medicine after antibiotics. A You are going back
:43:42. > :43:47.to the last century with, before antibiotics, or you had to do was
:43:47. > :43:51.lance boils, drained of us and put people in bed for rest. If if F but
:43:51. > :43:56.researchers going on into whether traditional remedies could be the
:43:56. > :44:01.next week to battle for bugs. also work on tea. It may surprise
:44:01. > :44:04.people to know that tea contains compounds which has been shown to
:44:04. > :44:10.have health benefits, some of which is its ability to kill micro-
:44:10. > :44:15.organisms. In a particular project here, we have been looking at tea
:44:15. > :44:19.as a source of drugs to treat C. Difficile oath. Whatever is
:44:19. > :44:26.developed in the future to tackle disease experts say it is clear
:44:26. > :44:32.what has to be done now. Overall, the issue is a trying to educate
:44:32. > :44:36.the public and health professionals so that antibiotics are only used
:44:37. > :44:41.appropriately when they can have a proper effect. While some doctors
:44:41. > :44:43.and some patients may become accustomed to using antibiotics as
:44:43. > :44:47.a cure for all ills, half the message from experts in the field
:44:47. > :44:53.is that it presents dangers for the future. Using them more sparingly
:44:53. > :44:59.could literally be a matter of life and death.
:44:59. > :45:05.Jocelyn, that is quite a stark warning from Brian. A matter of
:45:05. > :45:09.life-and-death if we keep our -- handing up these antibiotics.
:45:09. > :45:16.ates 60 or 70 years ago that people did not have antibiotics so people
:45:17. > :45:20.regularly died of things like pneumonia and TV. My own husband
:45:20. > :45:24.had pneumonia a couple of years ago and he had antibiotics
:45:24. > :45:32.intravenously. We do want to go back to the days when people
:45:32. > :45:38.routinely died of those conditions -- we don't want to go back. My GP
:45:38. > :45:43.says, if I treat you, it will last a week, if I don't treat you, it
:45:43. > :45:48.will last seven days. Sometimes we have got to accept that some things
:45:48. > :45:51.have got to run their course. any issue that we have free
:45:51. > :45:57.prescriptions in Wales, much vaunted by some sides of the
:45:57. > :46:02.Assembly and not by the other ones, is it an issue as to why doctors
:46:02. > :46:06.might be more happy to write out a prescription for antibiotics?
:46:06. > :46:10.don't think free prescriptions come into the picture at all. Off places
:46:10. > :46:17.that don't see free prescriptions C antibiotic use rising to the same
:46:18. > :46:20.extent they have in Wales. We are very lucky in Wales to still have a
:46:20. > :46:25.national independent public health service that is able to do this
:46:25. > :46:29.sort of work we have just seen in that report. In England, the Public
:46:29. > :46:32.Health Service has been torn up and thrown to the four winds. I
:46:32. > :46:37.sometimes argue in the Assembly that regard something that is going
:46:37. > :46:40.on in England we should be glad we are not affected by in Wales is a
:46:40. > :46:45.mistake because what is happening over there will have an impact on
:46:45. > :46:49.things in Wales as well. How will that make a difference to this
:46:49. > :46:53.reliance on antibiotics? We would not have the information and the
:46:53. > :46:56.warnings we have just heard if we did not have a National Health
:46:56. > :47:06.Service able to do that research and draw the conclusions we have
:47:06. > :47:07.
:47:07. > :47:13.heard about. What they are saying this is not very new, in fact. The
:47:13. > :47:16.last report will be 10 years old next year. It is important that
:47:16. > :47:20.people take greater responsibility in shaping their own health and
:47:20. > :47:28.part of that does mean recognising that expecting to have a
:47:28. > :47:32.prescription and antibiotics is not always the best answer for you.
:47:32. > :47:36.for the rest of us because this affects everybody. The resistance
:47:36. > :47:40.in the bacteria is going to affect us also in the future, perhaps
:47:40. > :47:45.people who have at transplants will be able to have the antibiotics
:47:45. > :47:48.they need for the rest of their lives. Mark mentioned it featured
:47:48. > :47:54.in a prominent report 10 years ago but we are hearing the same message
:47:54. > :47:59.now. When will the message it home? The guidelines need to be tougher,
:47:59. > :48:03.GPs need to be tougher, and patients need to be turned away if
:48:03. > :48:07.that is what they are requesting. But aren't GPs going to be
:48:07. > :48:13.concerned about that? If they send a patient away and something
:48:13. > :48:17.terrible happens. The consequences are dire and GPs, it is their
:48:17. > :48:21.responsibility to the patient in front of them and to society in
:48:21. > :48:23.general to make sure that this miraculous drug is not misused.
:48:23. > :48:26.A senior Welsh Conservative MP is warning many Welsh householders
:48:26. > :48:29.could face higher insurance costs or no cover at all unless there is
:48:29. > :48:33.an urgent agreement between the UK Government and the insurance
:48:33. > :48:35.industry over flooding. Jonathan Evans says he fears that without a
:48:35. > :48:43.deal, Welsh homes could be left without cover and many more
:48:43. > :48:47.householders see their premiums rise. Adrian Browne reports.
:48:47. > :48:53.Six months ago, hundreds of homes and businesses in many parts of
:48:53. > :48:57.Ceredigion were flooded. This week, the clean-up operation carries on
:48:57. > :49:02.in Denbighshire after last week's devastating floods. Householders
:49:02. > :49:05.are now wondering if they will face higher insurance costs or no cover
:49:05. > :49:12.at all with talks between the UK government and the insurance
:49:12. > :49:16.industry at a standstill. It is going to cost an arm and a leg. I
:49:16. > :49:23.am just worried about getting insurance of any kind in the future.
:49:23. > :49:26.It is a problem and we have all been talking over breakfast this
:49:26. > :49:31.morning in her various hotel establishments that we have been
:49:31. > :49:34.put in by the insurance companies. I think they are going round in
:49:34. > :49:38.circles for a long time before thrashing out the details and
:49:38. > :49:44.reaching an amicable decision. At the end of the day, the people are
:49:44. > :49:49.going to lose out are the people who live in these areas. The Welsh
:49:49. > :49:53.MP who chairs a cross-party group on the insurance industry says
:49:53. > :49:57.talks are vague talk of great frustration. The talks have been
:49:57. > :50:02.going on for more than two years. The current policy is going to
:50:02. > :50:06.expire, nobody is anticipating a getting renewed, but the government
:50:06. > :50:10.and the industry must come to an urgent agreement. The reason is
:50:10. > :50:15.that the people who are at risk of flood, if not of those people being
:50:15. > :50:20.in Wales, a quarter of a million houses across the UK, they are
:50:20. > :50:23.probably paying half of what the real risk of flood is. They face a
:50:23. > :50:31.potential doubling of their premiums unless this gets sorted
:50:31. > :50:34.out. Under the existing agreement, Insurers provide cover for higher-
:50:34. > :50:40.risk properties while the UK government continues to fund
:50:40. > :50:44.improved flood defences. Ministers have rejected a proposal from the
:50:44. > :50:47.Association of British Insurers to set up a fund to which the Treasury
:50:47. > :50:51.will provide a temporary overdraft for the insurance industry to help
:50:51. > :50:56.it meet the cost of emergencies in the first few years of a new scheme
:50:56. > :51:00.while the fund bills or. Speaking in the Commons this week, the
:51:00. > :51:05.environment secretary told MPs talks with the industry were
:51:05. > :51:09.ongoing. We want to achieve a better system of insurance which
:51:09. > :51:14.provides the affordability, as comprehensive a system as possible,
:51:14. > :51:19.which is not a huge burden on the taxpayer. Negotiations continue and
:51:19. > :51:23.that all is currently in this court. The Association of British Insurers
:51:23. > :51:27.told this programme that those talks were at an impasse. But they
:51:27. > :51:30.were keen to work with the UK government. In a statement they
:51:30. > :51:35.said customers were increasingly worried about flood cover and it
:51:35. > :51:40.was important to try to find a way forward and that it was vital that
:51:40. > :51:43.Insurers and government tackle this issue together. The Conservative MP,
:51:43. > :51:47.Jonathan Evans, says he is concerned the UK government did not
:51:47. > :51:51.want to be part of any future scheme and it will be left to the
:51:51. > :51:57.industry to sort out with everybody, whether they are affected by
:51:57. > :52:01.flooding or not, paying extra. of those people may be quite poor
:52:01. > :52:04.people and for them to be asked to pay �30 more for their policy in
:52:04. > :52:10.order to make sure that flood risk can be covered for some people who
:52:10. > :52:13.may be wealthy in flood risk areas, people say that is not fair either.
:52:13. > :52:17.But the worst of all art comes would be one in which there is no
:52:17. > :52:21.agreement and the Industry says in June, that is it, if market forces,
:52:21. > :52:24.we are going to work out what your risk is because anybody watching
:52:24. > :52:28.this programme who has been affected by floods in Wales should
:52:28. > :52:33.know that the consequence of that is a potential of doubling their
:52:34. > :52:37.costs. Back in North Wales, it is not just about seeking guarantees
:52:37. > :52:41.over the availability of insurance in the future, they want to
:52:41. > :52:48.guarantee they will not be flooded again.
:52:48. > :52:52.Jocelyn, that was an ominous warning. If it is not solved in a
:52:52. > :52:57.month and a half, people in Wales, what he's saying, are going to be
:52:57. > :53:01.hit harder in the pocket. They will because they were not have
:53:01. > :53:05.insurance or it will be very expensive. We need to have
:53:05. > :53:09.Investment in flood defences, that is obvious, but they -- but what
:53:09. > :53:14.they were saying is that there isn't -- if there is not an
:53:14. > :53:19.agreement with the UK government, the cost will be spread among
:53:19. > :53:24.absolutely everybody which could mean 20 or �30 a year. That might
:53:24. > :53:28.mean other people might not be able to a 4th their insurance. This is
:53:28. > :53:33.something the UK government needs to sort out as a matter of urgency.
:53:33. > :53:36.We have seen the main flooding in Wales over the last six months, in
:53:36. > :53:43.Mid Wales and in North Wales. You were telling the earlier that your
:53:43. > :53:52.house price seven feet away from being flooded back in 19 79th --
:53:52. > :53:55.house was 7 ft away. We have seen a lot of it in the last six months.
:53:55. > :54:00.It lives for a long time after with you when the cameras have gone and
:54:00. > :54:06.the news agenda is somewhere else. But the important thing here is
:54:06. > :54:10.that there is a deal on the table. We herded in the report. The
:54:10. > :54:14.insurance industry is offering a know -- non-profit-making scheme.
:54:14. > :54:19.They need the Government to underwrite at in the very early
:54:19. > :54:24.stages while the fund builds up just in case there is a 2007 tier
:54:24. > :54:27.event in that early period. The problem is, if that government is
:54:27. > :54:32.full of market fundamentalists. They really don't believe in
:54:32. > :54:37.pooling risk in the way that insurance systems rely on. Mr
:54:37. > :54:42.Patterson is on one edge of that spectrum. He is for the government
:54:42. > :54:47.at Westminster to look at that deal. It seems to me a pretty good deal.
:54:47. > :54:49.It will protect people against risks which they themselves are not
:54:49. > :54:55.responsible for and which individually they simply cannot do
:54:55. > :54:59.anything to avoid. I read a press release from the Vale of Clwyd
:54:59. > :55:02.Assembly Member, Ann Jones, saying people should take up loans from
:55:03. > :55:07.Credit Unions because in North Wales she was fearful that loan
:55:07. > :55:13.sharks would be going around people's homes. That is another
:55:13. > :55:17.issue. People are going to have to borrow in order to pay their
:55:17. > :55:24.insurance. I think there are around 42,000 households in Wales that are
:55:24. > :55:28.affected. Her constituency has been particularly affected. We want
:55:29. > :55:33.people to have cover I think this is something the UK government
:55:33. > :55:36.should get sorted because it is a horrible thing to deal with. You
:55:36. > :55:41.won't be able to move because he will not be able to sell your
:55:41. > :55:45.property. It is not your fault, but it does seem flooding is something
:55:45. > :55:55.we will be facing every single year. Time now for a quick look back at
:55:55. > :55:56.
:55:56. > :55:59.some of the political stories of the week in 60 seconds.
:55:59. > :56:05.In the final First Minister's Questions of the year, can Wyn
:56:05. > :56:08.Jones said he put forward a complaint against S4C in which a
:56:08. > :56:11.character criticised the Welsh Government decision not to cull
:56:11. > :56:16.badgers. He faced accusations of censorship and heavy handedness
:56:16. > :56:26.over and issues -- an issue which was a soap opera in itself
:56:26. > :56:32.
:56:32. > :56:35.according to the Conservative leader. Assembly Members are being
:56:35. > :56:40.recalled during their Christmas break after they were unable to
:56:40. > :56:43.agree new rules on council tax benefits. There were angry scenes
:56:43. > :56:52.with the Welsh ministers failing to consult on proposals that will
:56:52. > :57:01.affect more than 300,000 households. And with Christmas on its way, Mike
:57:01. > :57:07.German took centre stage for Parliament choir.
:57:07. > :57:09.We want to well on Mike German's singing voice. Last Wednesday, put
:57:10. > :57:15.her review will have been in the chamber witnessing those angry
:57:15. > :57:20.scenes I just describe, or thinking you may be heading off for a few
:57:20. > :57:25.weeks of rest over the Christmas period. You are going to be back a
:57:25. > :57:32.week when State to try and resolve this situation over council tax. It
:57:32. > :57:37.is not ideal. It is not. I thought the Conservative Party in the
:57:37. > :57:42.Assembly were very much at fault. thought you might. They definitely
:57:42. > :57:46.were not interested in putting the interests of the 330,000 families
:57:46. > :57:50.who rely on council tax at the forefront of their minds. They
:57:50. > :57:58.don't feel the government had acted quickly either full staff they were
:57:58. > :58:02.relying on a procedural set of arguments. Her I thought Jocelyn
:58:02. > :58:06.got it exactly right. She was arguing we should have been allowed
:58:06. > :58:11.to discuss the substantive issue. She may not have agreed with the
:58:11. > :58:18.government that she wanted to get the -- past the procedural nonsense.
:58:18. > :58:21.That is what we ought to have done. Had you been able to discuss it, do
:58:21. > :58:27.you think you could have saved yourself a trip back to Cardiff?
:58:27. > :58:32.don't mind coming back on 19th December, I object to being
:58:32. > :58:40.expected to vote for something that has not been explained to me. I did
:58:40. > :58:45.speak in the debate. Why do you think that happened? The ministers
:58:45. > :58:49.did not try to get support for it? We have been asking since last
:58:49. > :58:53.March to have details of the scheme. He has been more interested in
:58:53. > :59:00.having a row with Westminster over this because if you have got
:59:00. > :59:05.330,000 households relying on youth to get something in place by the
:59:05. > :59:09.end of December, I think it could have been given a bit more effort.
:59:09. > :59:19.I was all for having the debate, I don't think I would have supported
:59:19. > :59:22.
:59:22. > :59:26.the regulations because they have not been explained to me. There is
:59:26. > :59:28.a couple of issues there. The ministers tried to bully the
:59:28. > :59:35.Assembly into it and was more interested in grandstanding than
:59:35. > :59:41.having a fire with Westminster? Minister needed figures from
:59:41. > :59:44.Westminster which she has tried to persuade them to provide. They
:59:44. > :59:53.arrived at 5:15pm that afternoon. That is the pressure he has been
:59:53. > :59:56.under. Now we will have a chance to have a proper debate on it.