:00:43. > :00:53.Good morning, welcome to the Sunday Politics. It is supposedly the
:00:53. > :01:29.
:01:29. > :01:33.Government department getting Later in the programme, is a
:01:33. > :01:43.decline in the number of people who can speak Welsh a cause for
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :37:26.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2142 seconds
:37:26. > :37:29.concern? And what could be done Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales,
:37:29. > :37:34.the latest Census tells us there is a decline in the number of people
:37:34. > :37:37.who can speak Welsh. Is this a crisis?
:37:37. > :37:42.And what's the best direction of travel when it comes to Government
:37:42. > :37:45.funding of big building projects? Joining me throughout today's
:37:45. > :37:49.programme are the Conservative MP, Glyn Davies. And the leader of the
:37:49. > :37:53.Welsh Liberal Democrats, Kirsty Williams. I think we shall start
:37:53. > :37:57.with the stories dominating all the media this morning, the shootings
:37:58. > :38:03.in Connecticut in America. We know that Carwyn Jones has written to
:38:03. > :38:07.President Obama sending the Welsh people's condolences. Let us get
:38:07. > :38:12.your reactions. It is horrific, almost beyond belief that such a
:38:12. > :38:17.dreadful thing could happen. I have a six-year-old daughter myself and
:38:17. > :38:21.cannot begin to imagine what that community is going through. I was a
:38:21. > :38:30.student in America 20 years ago and was bemused by the attitude towards
:38:30. > :38:40.dance. There was a shock in the town where I was a student. --
:38:40. > :38:43.
:38:43. > :38:47.towards guns. That town sold guns openly. In Connecticut, there are
:38:47. > :38:51.some of the Firmus regulations and yet there still happened. Kirsty
:38:51. > :38:57.says she does not hold out much hope that President Obama can come
:38:57. > :39:03.to terms with that. Should he even tried to? I think he should 2, 7
:39:03. > :39:07.with automatic weapons. But there is no point pretending that you --
:39:07. > :39:12.I think you should try to, certainly with automatic weapons.
:39:12. > :39:17.But there is no point pretending that these sorts of incidents can
:39:17. > :39:22.never happen. But you do your best and he the President should try to
:39:22. > :39:26.remove the automatic weapons. shall leave it there for now and be
:39:26. > :39:30.back with you in a moment. As we keep getting told by
:39:30. > :39:35.politicians, there is not a lot of spare cash around at the moment. So
:39:35. > :39:39.what can governments do to raise extra funds? The Welsh government
:39:39. > :39:42.is set to get some limited borrowing powers. And it is
:39:42. > :39:45.exploring other ways of paying for key projects like new roads. But a
:39:45. > :39:48.story from Newtown in Powys over three decades ago might have some
:39:48. > :39:52.telling lessons for modern-day policy makers.
:39:52. > :39:59.On the road to getting poor rose 2 -- 2 getting powers to borrow money.
:39:59. > :40:03.But not there yet. The green light is there in principle, but they are
:40:03. > :40:08.looking at other ways to raise cash in the meantime. A new scheme was
:40:08. > :40:16.announced that will see the setting up of a body to borrow �300 million
:40:16. > :40:21.from the private sector to fund improvements to this road, the A465.
:40:21. > :40:28.It means using private money, but unlike the Private Finance
:40:28. > :40:33.Initiative, the Government says there is more in it for the public.
:40:33. > :40:36.Beer is a limit on the profit private companies can make, and if
:40:36. > :40:40.a Supplies is made, it is your back with the Government, so we think it
:40:40. > :40:45.is a way to bring private capital in, but ensure the public sector
:40:45. > :40:52.get a good deal. And insuring good deal is crucial when signing up to
:40:52. > :41:02.borrowing agreements that often last decades. There is a tale from
:41:02. > :41:03.
:41:03. > :41:06.1970s Newtown in Powys. Back then, a body and its successor funded a
:41:06. > :41:12.big housebuilding effort by borrowing millions of pounds from
:41:12. > :41:16.something called the National Loans Fund. Hundreds of houses were built,
:41:16. > :41:21.including these. It was part of a big boost to swell the population
:41:21. > :41:25.of Newtown through a huge construction programme. Many of the
:41:25. > :41:33.loans were over 60 years and often at an interest rate in excess of
:41:33. > :41:37.14%. By the beginning of the 1990s, the loans were almost �20 million.
:41:37. > :41:41.But the Development Board for Rural Wales does not exist any more and
:41:41. > :41:45.its responsibilities, including any outstanding loans, are now the
:41:45. > :41:51.Welsh Government's. It emerged that, by the end of this financial year,
:41:51. > :41:57.the Welsh Government is still likely to or �11.6 million and it
:41:57. > :42:01.is due to keep on paying until 2041. The houses have long been signed
:42:01. > :42:06.over to the council and a housing association. Many have been sold
:42:06. > :42:10.into private ownership through the right-to-buy scheme. The local
:42:10. > :42:14.Assembly Member says the right decisions were made at the time.
:42:14. > :42:18.think it is a strange situation, would the Government is paying off
:42:18. > :42:22.a loan of assets it no longer owns. But the way these houses are now in
:42:22. > :42:26.private or public ownership, they were needed at the time and are
:42:26. > :42:31.needed now, but the lessons for future governments is that it needs
:42:31. > :42:35.to be responsible with taxpayers' money, but also work with private
:42:35. > :42:39.partnerships to support infrastructure projects. This is
:42:39. > :42:44.the problem when you take out long- term loans. That future governments
:42:44. > :42:48.cannot be held responsible for what previous governments took out. And
:42:48. > :42:53.that legacy of the housing project in Newtown is an absolute scandal,
:42:53. > :42:57.the amount of public money going into that, with no public asset. We
:42:57. > :43:01.have been publicly financing private home-ownership, that is
:43:01. > :43:05.clearly unacceptable. The Welsh Government says it tried to pay off
:43:05. > :43:09.the loans, but the repayment would have made it too costly and the
:43:09. > :43:13.high interest rates were typical of the time and a much lower now and
:43:13. > :43:17.it adds that future Government borrowing will only be undertaken
:43:17. > :43:20.when the investments represent long-term value for money. Few
:43:20. > :43:25.would disagree that, when alternative sources of money is
:43:25. > :43:29.scarce, borrowing is a valuable tool, but the money comes a at a
:43:29. > :43:33.cost. You clearly could not take out borrowing that you were not in
:43:33. > :43:38.a position to show over the long term how you could pay that back.
:43:38. > :43:42.But it is very important, with the limited powers this assembly has,
:43:42. > :43:48.that there are other avenues for attracting investment into the
:43:48. > :43:51.public sector, which is desperately needed. It is important to be
:43:51. > :43:56.careful in negotiation and also to make sure that the projects you are
:43:56. > :44:01.spending on a really worthwhile for the economy, because you will be a
:44:01. > :44:05.paying for them. A lot has changed in Newtown since the 1970s. But the
:44:05. > :44:13.legacy of financial decisions taken back then still resonate in Cardiff
:44:13. > :44:16.Bay decades later. Glyn Davies, you were involved in
:44:16. > :44:22.the mid-Wales Development Corporation ended 1980s, after this
:44:22. > :44:28.one was taken out. Beverley above board, but what you make of the
:44:28. > :44:38.idea that this will not be paid off until 2041? I do not think it is
:44:38. > :44:39.
:44:39. > :44:47.unusual. No? The steps of things are rarely done, because they do
:44:47. > :44:53.not want to borrow so much money. But these are usually long term.
:44:53. > :44:56.Those were six the year terms, taken at a time when interest rates
:44:56. > :45:01.-- they were 60-year terms, taken at a time when interest rates were
:45:01. > :45:05.higher. We can find those figures high now, but at that time, it does
:45:05. > :45:13.not seem particularly unusual and I do not see what a scandalous about
:45:13. > :45:18.it. When you borrow money, you have to pay it back. In future, any big
:45:18. > :45:22.project, we will have to be careful how it is structured and lessons
:45:22. > :45:26.have been learnt. Looking ahead to future borrowing in a moment. But
:45:26. > :45:33.what about the idea that the Welsh Government is trying to peel off
:45:33. > :45:37.what is now �12 million, which is not a huge amount, but it cannot he
:45:37. > :45:40.off because the costs are prohibitive. It borrowed the money
:45:40. > :45:46.from the public purse, so the public purse charging the public
:45:46. > :45:49.purse, with high prices for paying off alone. But those are the
:45:49. > :45:53.consequences and we have to learn the lessons from that and make sure
:45:53. > :45:57.that, whatever big capital programmes and money is borrowed
:45:57. > :46:02.for, those are right, they are future proof, things we are going
:46:02. > :46:08.to need and we will not say that we are not going to use that hospital,
:46:08. > :46:13.we need a new one here, or in new road here, not there, so we need to
:46:13. > :46:17.future prove the capital programme and make the right decisions.
:46:17. > :46:23.Governments do not have a great track record, such as in the 1970s,
:46:23. > :46:29.the high cost public finance initiative ideas that are crippling
:46:29. > :46:34.parts of the NHS. We need to make sure that, when these than it was
:46:34. > :46:37.seated, we have people from the city with better experience,
:46:37. > :46:42.ensuring the right deals on the right projects. Those houses were
:46:42. > :46:49.needed, providing valuable homes in Newtown, but the terms of the deal
:46:49. > :46:54.looks good at the time, but you cannot predict the future. There
:46:54. > :46:58.was reference made to the kind of system that the Welsh Government
:46:58. > :47:03.could adopt, we are public companies cannot take loads of
:47:03. > :47:08.profit out of any deals. You were nodding in agreement? I agree with
:47:08. > :47:11.that. We have learnt lots of lessons, the PFI in particular.
:47:11. > :47:17.Some of those deals are ludicrously beneficial to the private sector
:47:17. > :47:22.partner. We have to learn what happened. There were mistakes in
:47:22. > :47:26.developing PFI, in particular, and we need to learn from that and make
:47:26. > :47:30.certain that the deal is safe and all key for the whole length of the
:47:30. > :47:33.term. -- and it is all right for the whole length of the term.
:47:33. > :47:41.Borrowing powers coming to the Welsh Government, starting to use
:47:41. > :47:45.them, and looking for the best deal. Borrowing powers are on the way, if
:47:45. > :47:50.you listen to your Liberal Democrats colleague Danny Alexander.
:47:50. > :47:54.Have you discussed what those would be? Those were vaguely announced.
:47:54. > :47:57.We know there has been an agreement between Westminster and the Welsh
:47:57. > :48:03.Government on the principle that the Welsh Government should be able
:48:03. > :48:08.to borrow. That is right. Now there will be negotiations about the
:48:08. > :48:11.terms of that and the limits placed upon it. As we can see, we need to
:48:11. > :48:16.have confidence that the Welsh Government can manage those
:48:16. > :48:21.projects, manage those deals and will not jeopardise public finances,
:48:21. > :48:25.either in Wales but across -- either in Wales on across the UK.
:48:25. > :48:29.This is the right path and we need to learn some of those lessons.
:48:29. > :48:34.Some of the PFI stuff in the 1990s, the initial companies have been
:48:34. > :48:39.able to sell those on, because they were so generous. We need to make
:48:39. > :48:45.sure we do not end up in those situations again. We shall leave it
:48:45. > :48:49.there for now and be back with you shortly. There have been calls for
:48:49. > :48:52.the Welsh government to take more action to halt the decline of the
:48:52. > :48:55.Welsh language. They came after the 2011 Census revealed that fewer
:48:55. > :49:00.people are able to speak the language compared to 10 years ago.
:49:00. > :49:10.Welsh ministers deny there is a crisis. Let us see what Dafydd
:49:10. > :49:10.
:49:10. > :49:12.Elis-Thomas thinks, in the Cardiff newsroom. Good morning. I ask that
:49:12. > :49:18.the top of the programme about a crisis in the Welsh language. What
:49:18. > :49:22.do you think? We never paid much attention to Census figures. When
:49:22. > :49:27.we were promoting the language, there are far more valuable
:49:27. > :49:31.indicators of attitudes and actual increasing numbers of speakers,
:49:31. > :49:34.especially in the younger age group. These figures are down to
:49:34. > :49:40.demography. These are crude percentages and do not tell you
:49:40. > :49:44.anything about real attitudes. I am concerned about this sort of
:49:44. > :49:48.discussion as a sideline from the real issue of promoting and
:49:48. > :49:54.marketing bilingualism as a lifestyle choice for people in
:49:54. > :49:58.Wales. For example, we have had centres to educate people who have
:49:58. > :50:03.moved into certain areas, who had young children, for those children
:50:03. > :50:08.to be educated to participate in the national curriculum to him. --
:50:08. > :50:13.National Curriculum. That kind of thing makes a real change, not
:50:13. > :50:18.crude percentages. It must be a real concern that Welsh is not the
:50:18. > :50:21.dominant language spoken in Anglesey, for instance, or in
:50:21. > :50:27.Carmarthenshire. It was the cornerstone for what opportunities
:50:27. > :50:31.there. I do not buy any of this. This is very superficial social
:50:31. > :50:38.linguistics. There was this percentage. If you did not have 70%
:50:38. > :50:41.Welsh, that would not be bilingual. But that has been proven wrong.
:50:41. > :50:45.Welsh is in a stronger position throughout Wales and indeed in
:50:45. > :50:49.England. We do not count all those friends we have in England who are
:50:49. > :50:56.still speaking Welsh. Another example of the demography. We need
:50:56. > :50:59.to look at what is happening in the South East, look at the huge
:50:59. > :51:03.increase in the numbers of young people going through the system.
:51:03. > :51:07.This is what is important. The important thing then is to ensure
:51:07. > :51:13.there are opportunities to work piling Willie, which is all about
:51:13. > :51:17.marketing and development. -- to work in a bilingual way. The most
:51:17. > :51:21.important thing I realised in my time and the Welsh Language Board
:51:21. > :51:25.is that marketing, persuading people, was far more important than
:51:25. > :51:29.regulation. I do not think the Government has a good track record
:51:29. > :51:34.of persuading citizens to do anything. In terms of the politics
:51:34. > :51:37.of this, someone suggested this week that, because the number of
:51:37. > :51:42.those using the language is down two percentage points, not an
:51:42. > :51:45.enormous drop, for those trying to promote and fight for the language,
:51:45. > :51:50.it is a great result, having ammunition to pressure the
:51:50. > :51:53.Government to do know -- to do more about increasing it again. I do not
:51:53. > :52:00.think this is a task for the Government. But that ship has
:52:00. > :52:05.sailed. It has not. We need a promotion campaign to promote
:52:05. > :52:10.bilingualism and job opportunities. Who does that? That is done by the
:52:10. > :52:13.private sector. I am pleased that the business Minister is looking at
:52:13. > :52:17.the role of the Welsh language in the private sector and business
:52:17. > :52:22.activity and we hope for pride -- we hope for positive ideas out of
:52:22. > :52:30.that. We want to promote language enterprise activities throughout
:52:31. > :52:36.Wales. We have organisations in developing culture. We need more of
:52:36. > :52:46.that. Thank you for joining us this morning. And reaction from the
:52:46. > :52:47.
:52:47. > :52:52.guests. Glyn Davies, you are at a more advanced age, learning at that
:52:52. > :52:57.time, why did it take you that long? It was a search for my roots.
:52:57. > :53:02.I wanted to learn. To learn as an adult, you need total commitment or
:53:02. > :53:08.you cannot do it. The key to it is having people speaking Welsh when
:53:08. > :53:14.they are very young, from four, seven, that sort of age. I think
:53:14. > :53:19.that is the key to developing the language. Eventually, I think that
:53:19. > :53:23.is the basis at which I feel fairly optimistic. I think this is a bit
:53:23. > :53:27.of a wake-up call. I do not dismiss the figures quite in the way Dafydd
:53:27. > :53:31.Elis-Thomas does. What he says about demographics, with a proper
:53:31. > :53:38.understanding about what is behind it, a lot of subjectivity if you
:53:38. > :53:45.ask someone if they speak Welsh. There could be as objective answer.
:53:45. > :53:48.-- there could be a subject of answer. And that was discussions
:53:48. > :53:52.about people overestimating their ability to speak Welsh in the last
:53:52. > :53:57.Census. What was your reaction when you saw those headlines this week
:53:57. > :54:02.that the number had gone down? Were you surprised? I was disappointed.
:54:03. > :54:07.As he has said, it is a subject of questioned but not necessarily a
:54:07. > :54:12.true reflection, but we cannot ignore it and need to look at what
:54:12. > :54:15.we can do in communities to promote the language, using promotion
:54:15. > :54:19.methods that Dafydd Elis-Thomas talk about, but I also think there
:54:19. > :54:25.is need for regulation and statutory action. Both myself and
:54:25. > :54:29.my husband do not speak Welsh, our parents did, but our children do,
:54:29. > :54:33.because of the provision in the primary school. But there is little
:54:33. > :54:37.provision at the secondary level and virtually nothing in South
:54:37. > :54:43.Powys at a post 16 level. Opportunities for young people to
:54:43. > :54:49.remain in their communities, to work and not feel the need to leave,
:54:49. > :54:53.and if finding a job, the ability to buy a home. We do need a mixture
:54:53. > :54:57.of persuasion, marketing, the benefits of sending your child to
:54:57. > :55:03.Welsh medium school, but also be opportunities to be there to
:55:03. > :55:07.provide those services, as well as action on the economy and housing.
:55:07. > :55:14.Dafydd Elis-Thomas has read a little faith in the Government. Do
:55:15. > :55:19.you share his pessimism? -- has very little fate. Central
:55:19. > :55:22.Government does need to take a leadership role. But it is also
:55:22. > :55:27.down to local authorities, those other people that should be
:55:27. > :55:30.providing Welsh medium education. And also the private sector.
:55:30. > :55:34.Everyone has a role to play in promoting the language and making
:55:34. > :55:40.sure there are opportunities for people to use that in every day
:55:40. > :55:44.life. That is what worries me, been an area such as South Powys, my
:55:44. > :55:48.children go to school, learn through the medium of Welsh, but
:55:48. > :55:52.with few opportunities outside a school to use that language. We
:55:52. > :55:57.need to do more in a whole variety of areas and it is not the job of
:55:57. > :56:02.one organisation. Let us look ahead to ten years' time, were no one
:56:02. > :56:10.knows the answer, but do you think that we will see a spike. Do you
:56:10. > :56:15.think it will go up again? I think it will creep up. Ten years ago, I
:56:15. > :56:19.thought that the battle to save the language was one. I think this is a
:56:19. > :56:23.wake-up call, in the sense that it is never actually won, it is an
:56:23. > :56:28.ongoing battle. Wales is so committed to keeping the language
:56:28. > :56:32.and I feel that we will make that commitment. As long as it is done
:56:32. > :56:37.to -- as long as it is done well, and do not rely on just Government,
:56:37. > :56:42.I think it will be. I do not think we will see a great spiked, but in
:56:42. > :56:48.ten years' time, if the Census figure is the same as now, that
:56:48. > :56:53.could be what we could expect. you have they, whether this is a
:56:53. > :56:57.crisis or not, that the downward spiral can be rectified? It has to
:56:57. > :57:01.be and we all have a role in that. We will be back with you in a
:57:01. > :57:09.minute, but night for a quick look at the political stories of this
:57:09. > :57:15.week in 60 seconds. -- but now for a quick look.
:57:15. > :57:20.The Prime Minister welcomed a major deal announced which is is hoped
:57:20. > :57:25.will secure thousands of jobs. A multi-billion pound order will save
:57:26. > :57:30.about 1,500 jobs. 7,500 in the supply chain.
:57:30. > :57:35.The Labour Welsh Government should be judged on this record. And he
:57:35. > :57:38.stressed the importance of sticking to your guns. He said there has
:57:38. > :57:41.been a success in creating jobs for young people and passing
:57:41. > :57:46.legislation. The Welsh Secretary and his deputy
:57:46. > :57:51.said they would vote against plans to legalise the mileage in England
:57:51. > :57:59.and Wales. -- to legalise gay marriage.
:57:59. > :58:02.Under new I'll bomb -- and a new album fronted by a Welsh Liberal
:58:02. > :58:12.Democrat has been described by a leading rock magazine as one of the
:58:12. > :58:15.
:58:15. > :58:19.best debuts of 2012. It is said she has a voice of depth and clarity.
:58:19. > :58:26.We had your predecessor singing carols last week and a councillor
:58:26. > :58:32.singing in a rock band. Surely you will be next? No, I cannot hold a
:58:32. > :58:35.tune. That will not happen. She is an amazing lady, a committee
:58:35. > :58:41.councillor, a school governor, mother of two, does an excellent
:58:41. > :58:45.job, and now this fantastic reviews. Well done to her. We shall listen
:58:45. > :58:50.after the programme. You may think you would not have to come back to
:58:50. > :58:53.Cardiff because of the Christmas recess. You will be back this
:58:53. > :58:59.Wednesday to vote through the regulations on the new council tax
:58:59. > :59:04.benefit. I suspect that will happen. Never mind not getting it sorted
:59:04. > :59:08.the first time, you will sort it this week? Yes, I believe so. It is
:59:08. > :59:12.an important issue for many people living in Wales and it is incumbent
:59:12. > :59:17.upon us to make some progress on Wednesday. I am glad to be back to
:59:17. > :59:24.get this sorted and give 72 local authorities and, more importantly,
:59:24. > :59:29.people depending on counter-attacks benefit. Are you embarrass you
:59:29. > :59:33.could not get it sorted a first- time? It was a shame we could not
:59:33. > :59:37.concluded before the recess and avoid this. These things sometimes
:59:37. > :59:41.happen. But you do have to recognise you got it wrong and get
:59:41. > :59:48.it right. You recess has not even begun. You will discuss the energy
:59:48. > :59:52.bill this week. Wednesday will be the day for that. Several issues I
:59:52. > :59:59.want to raise. I do not like offshore wind farms and we need to
:59:59. > :00:06.look at alternatives. And fracking as well, potentially the biggest
:00:06. > :00:11.energy changed since North Sea oil. Good thing? -- Good Thing? Let us