:00:47. > :00:51.Politicians and business leaders line up to warn David Cameron not
:00:51. > :00:56.to damage our relationship with the EU. Are they right? Should he
:00:56. > :00:59.lissnn a week when the government has been busy marking its own
:00:59. > :01:07.homework, we ask the community secretaries, Eric Pickles, when it
:01:07. > :01:09.comes to housing policy, it's a case of must try much harder. As
:01:09. > :01:15.violent protests continue in Belfast over the decision to cut
:01:15. > :01:19.the number of days the Union Flag flies above City Hall we will
:01:19. > :01:23.debate the decision and the significance of the riots, as two
:01:23. > :01:25.politicians at the heart of the controversy go head-to-head.
:01:25. > :01:28.Later in the programme.we hear a call for "strong political
:01:28. > :01:38.leadership" ahead of what's expected to be radical reforms for
:01:38. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :43:52.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2534 seconds
:43:52. > :43:54.the National Health Service in Hello, and on the Sunday Politics
:43:54. > :43:57.Wales, the patients' watchdog, the Community Health Council, tells us
:43:57. > :44:00.that "strong political leadership" is needed ahead of a week where we
:44:00. > :44:04.should hear about proposals for what are expected to be radical
:44:04. > :44:08.changes to the NHS in some parts of the country.
:44:08. > :44:10..Is the glass half empty or half full?
:44:10. > :44:12.What's the future looking like for the pub.
:44:12. > :44:20.Joining me throughout today's programme are Labour's Nia Griffith
:44:20. > :44:24.and the Conservative, Nick Ramsay. Welcome. Happy New Year. Let's
:44:24. > :44:28.start the programme on comments from the Labour leader, Ed Miliband,
:44:28. > :44:31.this morning, on Europe. He accused your party leader, David Cameron,
:44:31. > :44:36.on taking the country sleepwalking to a European exit. What do you
:44:36. > :44:41.think about those comments? I don't think David Cameron is sleepwalking
:44:41. > :44:46.anywhere. He is doing it wide-awake, is he? Whether you say sleepwalking
:44:46. > :44:49.or wide-awake, the fact is in are concerns there amongst the public
:44:49. > :44:52.about the future of the European Union. It's in a state of flux. We
:44:52. > :44:56.know about the economic situation. David Cameron is quite right to say
:44:56. > :44:58.to people at some point in the future there is the possibility of
:44:58. > :45:02.having a referendum on our membership and the type of
:45:02. > :45:05.relationship we have with the European Union. You mentioned there
:45:05. > :45:09.are concerns in the public. There are concerns within your party,
:45:09. > :45:12.aren't there? There Are concerns within my party. They are concerned
:45:12. > :45:16.about the threat of UKIP? There are concerns we represent the views of
:45:16. > :45:20.people out. There when I speak to my constituents there is no doubt
:45:20. > :45:23.at all that Europe is a concern of them. I don't think the
:45:23. > :45:25.Conservative Party would be honouring its responsibilities to
:45:25. > :45:29.the electorate if we didn't say, at some point, we think that you
:45:29. > :45:35.should be able to have a say on this. If there was a referendum,
:45:35. > :45:38.how would you vote? At the moment, I think that our interests of the
:45:38. > :45:42.United Kingdom are served by being in the European Union. That might
:45:42. > :45:47.be different at some point in the future. We have to look carefully
:45:47. > :45:50.at the implicationss for jobs, for our economy for not being part of
:45:50. > :45:54.the European Union. We need to look at the way it looks at the moment
:45:54. > :45:57.and our renegotiation. Nia Griffith, are you concerned that David
:45:57. > :46:05.Cameron is trying to take the UK out of the EU? What happened this
:46:05. > :46:08.week in Swindon, where we saw 80 jobs being lost at Honda. 800, I
:46:08. > :46:13.think? Sorry. 800. Is the reason why we really do need to be
:46:13. > :46:20.influencing what is happening in Europe. It's absolutely clear to me
:46:20. > :46:23.that in Europe, whether we are in the eurozone or outside the
:46:23. > :46:29.Eurozone we are influential we depend on marketing our produce and
:46:29. > :46:33.manufacturered goods to Europe. Now, if we are showing very silly side.
:46:33. > :46:37.We are, sort of, playing silly and sulking and walking off and turning
:46:37. > :46:40.our back, then other people in Europe are going to say - why
:46:40. > :46:44.bother with the UK? We will not have the influence we should have.
:46:44. > :46:49.My view is we need a very, very strong voice indeed in Europe. We
:46:49. > :46:52.need to be influencing because it is, at the end of the day, jobs for
:46:52. > :46:54.our people. We will be back with you shortly.
:46:54. > :46:56.The patients' watchdog, the Community Health Council, is
:46:56. > :47:01.calling for "strong political leadership" ahead of what's
:47:01. > :47:04.expected to be radical reforms of the NHS proposed next week.
:47:04. > :47:07.Hywel Dda in West Wales and the Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board in
:47:07. > :47:10.North Wales will confirm details of their plans for hospital
:47:10. > :47:16.reorganisation next week. Brian Meechan begins his report
:47:16. > :47:21.from the Nurse Training Centre at the University of Glamorgan. The
:47:21. > :47:26.NHS is suffering. It's under pressure because of an increasingly
:47:26. > :47:29.elderly population and also the general cost of treating patience.
:47:29. > :47:34.Many clinicians say they find it difficult to provide the safest
:47:34. > :47:39.services at so many hospitals. All of this, at a time when NHS budgets
:47:39. > :47:42.are being cut that is why experts say we can no longer provide
:47:42. > :47:49.services the way we have always done. We have to change. If we
:47:49. > :47:55.don't change, we will end up in a perfect storm, as some people have
:47:55. > :48:00.said, but this actually gives us a really good opportunity to make a
:48:00. > :48:03.root and branch restructuring of the health service in Wales.
:48:03. > :48:07.know historically there are patients in hospital who do not
:48:07. > :48:11.need to be in hospital. By being in hospital they are increasing risks
:48:11. > :48:14.of other things happening to them. We need to ensure that only the
:48:14. > :48:20.patients who require hospital iedsation and require to go into
:48:20. > :48:24.hospital for tests -- hospital iedsation, actually go into
:48:24. > :48:29.hospital. Everyone else should be managed within the community, by
:48:29. > :48:33.primary care -- hospitalisation. In order to do that, we need shift
:48:33. > :48:37.resources so that both professionals, facilities and
:48:37. > :48:43.indeed the money needs to be focused more at primary care level
:48:43. > :48:48.and community care level. It has proven controversial in the past.
:48:48. > :48:53.Attempts to change how and where the NHS provide services have
:48:53. > :48:57.brought protesters on to the streets across Wales. We will see
:48:57. > :49:00.protests. People are protective of the NHS and protective of their
:49:00. > :49:03.local facilities. People have worked long and hard to have a
:49:03. > :49:07.national health service which they believe is quite precious. He says
:49:07. > :49:11.people need to look at what is being proposed and the Community
:49:11. > :49:15.Health Council is also warning politicians not just to jump on a
:49:15. > :49:19.were test bandwagon. It is a tough call for politicians, we recognise
:49:19. > :49:23.that, they have to look after the views and interests of their
:49:23. > :49:27.constituents. There is a statesman's job to be done. One of
:49:27. > :49:32.the strengths of, particularly in South Wales of the proposals, we
:49:32. > :49:36.are looking at things on a more regional basis. Sometimes that
:49:36. > :49:42.means compromises locally or difficult decisions locally. We
:49:42. > :49:46.think there is a real call for strong political leadership, and
:49:46. > :49:50.strong statesman-like behaviour from our politicians. The Community
:49:50. > :49:52.Health Councils say the re- organisation plans have been led by
:49:52. > :49:56.clinicians and also that communities have been widely
:49:56. > :50:00.consulted. There are still some tough decisions to be made. The
:50:00. > :50:03.patients body will go into negotiation with NHS managers. If
:50:03. > :50:07.they can't reach agreement, the Community Health Councils have the
:50:07. > :50:11.right to refer the decision to the Health Minister, Lesley Griffiths.
:50:11. > :50:16.Our aim is to work with health boards to make sure we can resolve
:50:16. > :50:21.issues locally and on a regional basis. We would prefer not to have
:50:21. > :50:24.to push decisions up to the minister. If we have to, we will
:50:24. > :50:28.have to. Even though Lesley Griffiths has, for a long time in
:50:28. > :50:31.this process, tried to keep her distance from what is going on,
:50:31. > :50:37.keep her distance from all the arguments, ultimately, it might be
:50:37. > :50:40.her that has to make the final call about what shape the NHS should be.
:50:40. > :50:45.Voters regularly say the NHS is a top priority when they go to the
:50:45. > :50:50.polls. Many of the hospitals affect ready in key constituencies, that
:50:50. > :50:56.makes any major reform not just a health issue, but a political one.
:50:56. > :50:59.Well, Nia Griffith, in West Wales I have seen pictures of you wearing a
:50:59. > :51:06.campaign T-shirt outside the Assembly campaigning against
:51:06. > :51:15.changes particularly in West Wales in your constituencies. Do you take
:51:15. > :51:18.on -- constituency do you take on board what was being said? It's
:51:18. > :51:23.important in the consultation part of the process local politician
:51:23. > :51:32.also speak up strongly for their local area. That is part of a
:51:32. > :51:36.consultation process and absolutely rightly so. You no, -- now, Hywel
:51:36. > :51:40.Dda are publishing plans but the board has not reported. We don't
:51:40. > :51:46.know what will happen in the rest of South Wales. The difficulty now
:51:46. > :51:50.is, whatever is decided by Hywel Dda, if it does have a knock-on
:51:50. > :51:53.effect on, for example, Morrison Hospital we need see what the plans
:51:53. > :52:00.are in South Wales, what the plans are, for example, about taking
:52:00. > :52:04.services from Neath Port Talbot Hospital to Morrison. We need see
:52:04. > :52:09.if the Hywel Dda proposals will have any additional work for the
:52:09. > :52:13.Welsh ambulance service. If that is the case, again if there is an
:52:13. > :52:20.initial resource requirement for the ambulance service, then that
:52:20. > :52:24.become as decision above and beyond just hd. When all those pieces of
:52:24. > :52:29.the -- Hywel Dda. When all those pieces of the jigsaw are available
:52:29. > :52:35.the minister will have to fit those together because it's above and
:52:35. > :52:44.beyond what Hywel Dda can do in it is own area. Likewise with Betsi
:52:44. > :52:47.Cadwaladr if that has implications for health boards. There is a
:52:47. > :52:52.political implication, isn't there, to any changes in your
:52:52. > :52:58.constituency? You have an election coming up, people might decide to
:52:58. > :53:02.vote against Labour if services in your area are changed, particularly
:53:02. > :53:06.the Accident & Emergency service there? It will be a difficult time
:53:06. > :53:08.for the minister. She will have to weigh up all the different
:53:09. > :53:14.possibilities. As far as we are concerned, we have the situation
:53:14. > :53:18.that we are the largest area of population, we are concentrated in
:53:18. > :53:23.one corner of the Hywel Dda area. If we were in the middle of the
:53:23. > :53:26.Hywel Dda area everything would be simpler. We need to look at
:53:26. > :53:30.imaginative ways in which things can be funded. We need to ask the
:53:30. > :53:35.questions as well about what sort of future do we want for our
:53:35. > :53:39.medical school in Swansea? Do we want lots of excellent places where
:53:39. > :53:44.students can train to get a home- grown population of doctors which
:53:44. > :53:50.will help us to staff hospitals better. Nick Ramsay, medical
:53:50. > :53:53.professionals particularly saying that the NHS needs changing. Is
:53:53. > :53:57.that something your party accepts? Reorganisation is necessary? No-one
:53:57. > :54:02.denies that the NHS has to change. Anyone who says something has to
:54:02. > :54:07.stay exactly as it is year after year is kidding themselves. The
:54:07. > :54:12.real problem here, I commend the approach of Nia Griffith for
:54:12. > :54:18.standing up for her constituents. The Welsh Labour government have
:54:18. > :54:21.taken money from the health service. The health boards are in the red.
:54:21. > :54:26.They are being forced through financial pressures to do this.
:54:26. > :54:29.They need to go back to the drawing board. That will not happen, is it?
:54:29. > :54:33.The nearer we get to an election the government will want this
:54:33. > :54:36.sorted out so it doesn't have an impact come election time? People
:54:36. > :54:39.want hospitals that are local and able to provide the services they
:54:39. > :54:47.want. I don't think they are too concerned about any problems that
:54:47. > :54:51.the Labour Party has with imminent elections. In south-east Wales in
:54:51. > :54:56.Gwent there haven't been problems. The proposals are pretty accepted.
:54:56. > :55:00.There is a way it can be done properly. Putting forward a
:55:00. > :55:05.bullying, one size fits all this is what we say your health service is
:55:05. > :55:11.going to look like, will not work. They need to reconsider and listen
:55:11. > :55:21.more to MPs like Nia Griffith. Health Minister said it will be the
:55:21. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:25.health boards that make the decisions. Do you feel with the
:55:25. > :55:28.potential removal of Accident & Emergency that would be a
:55:28. > :55:33.downgrading of service? I travel up every week to Westminster. I have
:55:33. > :55:37.to tell people in Wales at least we have a government totally committed
:55:37. > :55:40.to the NHS. In England it's worse. You see the headlines about
:55:40. > :55:46.staffing levels in hospitals in England. That is the first and
:55:46. > :55:49.foremost thing to say. Secondly, of course any -- there is worry that
:55:49. > :55:52.something will be downgraded. We want to see the best. Until we have
:55:52. > :56:00.what comes forward on Tuesday, it's difficult to comment. We will leave
:56:00. > :56:05.it there for now. Thank you. Let's talk about UK government proposals
:56:05. > :56:08.to change the way the pub industry is run. The government announced
:56:08. > :56:15.plans for an independent adjudicator to help struggling
:56:15. > :56:18.landlords. One man who welcomed those changes is the Labour MP Ian
:56:18. > :56:25.Lucas. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. This morning, I
:56:25. > :56:28.think it still is. Early for a drink in the pub. Tell us, why do
:56:28. > :56:32.you consider so many landlords are struggling as this move suggests?
:56:32. > :56:38.It's been a very, very difficult decade for pubs. The arrangements
:56:38. > :56:43.that have been in place for their regulation have really not served
:56:43. > :56:47.either the brewing industry as a whole or our high streets or
:56:47. > :56:52.publicans. The pressure of the recession has also imposed
:56:52. > :56:57.additional burdens, but there are individual cases of pubs doing well.
:56:57. > :57:02.We had a regulatory regime to date that undermined rather than
:57:03. > :57:09.promoted pubs in our constituencies. I'm not sure if you will be able to
:57:09. > :57:14.hear me. Your ear piece has fallen out much I had will come to Nick
:57:14. > :57:21.Ramsay. Nick, what do you make of the changes proposed by Vince Cable
:57:21. > :57:24.this week, good news for pubs? Lucas has done good work on this, I
:57:24. > :57:29.have been doing something similar in the Assembly. Pubs are different
:57:29. > :57:33.to other businesses. There is no way that if people go into a pub
:57:33. > :57:36.and buying a pint of ale that should be treated in the same way
:57:36. > :57:40.as buying cheep alcohol in a supermarket. This is a good step.
:57:40. > :57:45.It will not be easy. Until we get round this problem, particularly in
:57:45. > :57:49.rural areas, of pubs closing we will not solve the problem at the
:57:49. > :57:55.heart of many of our communities. Can you hear us now? Yes. Sorry
:57:55. > :57:58.about that. Not your fault at all. The adjudicator idea has been put
:57:58. > :58:02.in place by the coalition government, are you disappointed it
:58:02. > :58:07.wasn't a Labour government able to put these in place? The proposals
:58:07. > :58:12.were put forward just before we left office. I am disappointed they
:58:12. > :58:16.weren't taken forward at that time. There is great pressure on
:58:16. > :58:20.governments not to regulate. The step take thn week, this government
:58:20. > :58:27.was also reluctant, was to take the step to regulate, we had an
:58:27. > :58:31.unbalanced system that the free market had provided where pubs were
:58:31. > :58:35.being forced out of business. It's a big step for the government to
:58:35. > :58:45.take to regulate much we were reluctant to d that. This
:58:45. > :58:51.government was reluctant to do that. I'm pleased to do -- say that we
:58:51. > :58:55.have done that now. We want to work within our communities to offer
:58:55. > :59:00.goot services to constituents and customers and prosper as businesses
:59:00. > :59:05.providing more work both in the pubs themselves, but also in a town
:59:05. > :59:10.like Wrexham, which has a brewing condition swrerks micro breweries
:59:10. > :59:15.developing. We want to create jobs there. We need to focus down in
:59:15. > :59:19.local communities and develop the brewing industry again as a
:59:19. > :59:23.business. There is a role for pub codes, isn't there? If somebody
:59:23. > :59:27.wants to buy their own pub they need enormous capital, which they
:59:27. > :59:32.may not necessarily have, the breweries can put them in business
:59:32. > :59:36.in terms of giving them a building, do you accept with this regulation
:59:36. > :59:40.that the pub codes have a role toll play? They have a role to play. We
:59:40. > :59:48.want it to be a fair role. That is where the regulator comes in, to
:59:48. > :59:54.see the conditions imposed by pub codes are fair, not just to the pub
:59:54. > :59:58.cos but the tenants who operate. We do need capital investment, but we
:59:58. > :00:05.need a balance -- balanced situation. I would urge everybody
:00:06. > :00:09.who is interested in pubs, whether they be publicans, customers, pub
:00:09. > :00:14.co's to get involved in this process so we get the framework
:00:14. > :00:18.right. Thank you very much for joining us. Sorry about the minor
:00:18. > :00:22.technical difficulty there. Nick Ramsay, he said he wanted people
:00:22. > :00:27.interested in pubs to get involved. I'm sure you are interested in
:00:27. > :00:33.pubs? I have had the odd interest over years. Do you feel perhaps the
:00:33. > :00:40.balance has shifted against the pub co's and the breweries in this
:00:40. > :00:44.instance and landlords will prosper if they are part of a pub co's?
:00:44. > :00:47.hope they can benefit. Over the 10 years with larger companies
:00:47. > :00:51.developing, if you want capital investment in a pub it is great.
:00:51. > :00:54.Some of the companies were taking tenants through as quickly as
:00:54. > :00:59.possible, getting as much rent as they could, at the end of the day
:01:00. > :01:05.the pub was closing anyway. I hope the government's move here will
:01:05. > :01:10.change that. In my own local pub, where I live, that's got new
:01:10. > :01:15.tenants now. They are doing well. They have managed to buy out part
:01:15. > :01:19.of the bar area. There are ways where a large company can own a pub,
:01:19. > :01:24.but the tenants can be given far more control over the day-to-day
:01:24. > :01:27.running of that. When that happens the situation is a lot better.
:01:27. > :01:32.Griffith, pubs particularly in town centres, they take up a lot of
:01:32. > :01:37.space, lots of buildings, if pubs are closing, like when shops close,
:01:37. > :01:41.they can be a blight on a town centre, can't they, and give the
:01:41. > :01:45.wrong impression. Do you think the decision taken by Vince Cable this
:01:45. > :01:49.week can, on an economic level, support pubs in local areas? It's
:01:49. > :01:53.very important of course because they are part of the local fabric.
:01:53. > :01:56.People come into towns for lots of different reasons. An opportunity
:01:56. > :02:00.to meet in a pub is very important. My worry is that the government
:02:00. > :02:04.will back slide again. They only brought forward the consultation
:02:04. > :02:08.this week because we forced the vote on it. You didn't take any
:02:08. > :02:14.action, did you, as Ian Lucas acknowledged there, when you were
:02:14. > :02:19.in government? We were set fo do so at the point of the election in
:02:19. > :02:23.2010. The problem has been that the change of government let it drop.
:02:23. > :02:29.I'm worried now that they don't take this through fully. We are
:02:29. > :02:34.asking for people not to be ed to the beer from one particular
:02:34. > :02:38.brewery, so they can bring in guest beers and have a choice and use the
:02:39. > :02:42.breweries in their areas. What is important is what comes out of this
:02:42. > :02:45.consultation, yes, indeed, please everybody contribute to it, what
:02:46. > :02:50.worries me more is that the government will delay on this and
:02:50. > :02:55.we will see more pub closures. The other thing we need is more
:02:55. > :02:59.stimulus for the economy. If people don't have the money to spend,
:02:59. > :03:05.there is no way pub ks thrive. would look at the tax on alcohol
:03:05. > :03:08.and beer in pubs. It's different buying beer there to buying it in
:03:08. > :03:14.the supermarket. There are other things beyond this great first move
:03:14. > :03:18.that could be done. Will you be contributing to this consultation?
:03:18. > :03:25.There are other people in it as well. There is a limit to my
:03:25. > :03:32.abilities. Yeah, we work with CAMERA and Drink Aware, it's a
:03:32. > :03:38.popular group. We will do what we can to make sure we get the best
:03:38. > :03:42.possible deal for our communities. You could have them as community
:03:42. > :03:46.centres, or if there isn't a Post Office, you could have a facility
:03:46. > :03:50.like. That a lot can be done, but this is a great first move.
:03:50. > :04:00.Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of
:04:00. > :04:00.
:04:00. > :04:03.the week in 60 seconds. Welsh Secretary David Jones welcomed news
:04:03. > :04:08.that the electrification of the London to Cardiff rail line would
:04:08. > :04:13.be completed by 2017 with the extension to Swansea finished a
:04:13. > :04:18.year later. Updating could take until 2024. Opposition parties
:04:18. > :04:23.asked why a back to work scheme faced being a wound up a year early.
:04:23. > :04:28.The Welsh government wants to revoke �23 million of European
:04:28. > :04:33.funding after a review found it was under-performing. Opponents of a
:04:33. > :04:43.seven barrage told MPs that its impact on wildlife could be
:04:43. > :04:47.
:04:47. > :04:54.devastating. The angling Trust said it would be 24/7 mincers. Ahead of
:04:54. > :05:04.the first, First Minister's Questions, the Plaid Cymru leader
:05:04. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:11.said it was a pantomime show. Oh no she didn't. Oh, yes she did. Nick
:05:11. > :05:15.Ramsay - I didn't like that link. What did you make of what Leanne
:05:15. > :05:19.Wood had to say about First Minister's Questions? In terms of
:05:19. > :05:25.the electrification? Of it being an empty pantomime, the set up of it
:05:25. > :05:29.these days, is it working? think... I think it has worked in
:05:29. > :05:35.the past. I think it was more successful under Rhodri Morgan he
:05:35. > :05:38.tried to answer the questions. Too often, Carwyn Jones is trying to
:05:38. > :05:41.evade answers or trying to be clever answers. We don't want. That
:05:41. > :05:46.we are there to represent our constituents. We want an answer to
:05:46. > :05:52.a question. Even if it's an an answer which some people might
:05:52. > :06:01.think it's unpalatable, we have to have honesty in the Chamber. Have
:06:01. > :06:07.you got on -- a view on how it differs from the Commons Ours is
:06:07. > :06:11.fiesty and jostling. In the Assembly there is a calmer
:06:11. > :06:16.atmosphere that allows for longer, more detailed answers and let's
:06:16. > :06:23.people hear them, which is more you can sometimes have in the House of
:06:23. > :06:27.Commons. We don't havemics, you don't hear the background noise.
:06:27. > :06:32.Electrification, we heard from David Jones, plans put in place to
:06:32. > :06:37.suggest it is going to happen. You make the journey regularly. You
:06:37. > :06:40.welcome his announcement last week, I'm sure? I welcome the