:38:07. > :38:17.hear more Welsh tributes and and what more can be done to stop
:38:17. > :38:18.
:38:18. > :38:20.the spread of the Swansea measles outbreak.
:38:20. > :38:23.The former First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, described the late Baroness
:38:23. > :38:26.Thatcher as a marmite politician, you either loved her or loathed her.
:38:26. > :38:29.She was controversial, a hate figure for many but she also led the
:38:29. > :38:31.Conservatives to their best ever election result in Wales,
:38:31. > :38:34.transforming the country along the way with passionate support. As
:38:34. > :38:44.we've heard already, the coming week sees her funeral, and the week just
:38:44. > :38:49.passed saw tributes to her in Parliament. In the House of Commons,
:38:49. > :38:57.there were tributes from party leaders. They say, cometh the hour,
:38:57. > :39:03.come on the man. In 1979, came the hour and came the lady. She made
:39:03. > :39:07.history, and let this be her epitaph, that she made our country
:39:07. > :39:12.great again. Margaret Thatcher was a unique and towering figure. I
:39:12. > :39:16.disagree with much of what she did but I respect what her death means
:39:16. > :39:22.to the many people who admired her an eye on her personal
:39:22. > :39:25.achievements. Tributes from a Welsh MP with an English constituency. She
:39:25. > :39:27.did but I respect what her death means to the many people who admired
:39:27. > :39:32.her an eye on her personal achievements. Tributes from a Welsh
:39:32. > :39:41.MP with an English constituency. She's shared abuse power. Her fight
:39:41. > :39:48.to tame trade unionism are testament to that innate understanding. And a
:39:48. > :39:54.former secretary of state. A great lady, a huge personal achievement.
:39:54. > :39:59.At its best, an achievement which breaks free from conservatism and
:39:59. > :40:03.party dogma and showed the world that there is a better way, a
:40:03. > :40:10.democratic way, a freedom loving way. But there were harsher words
:40:10. > :40:18.from opposition MPs. She should be judged on her own terms, by whether
:40:18. > :40:28.she did deliver harmony, whether she delivered hope. And I feel she
:40:28. > :40:28.
:40:28. > :40:33.failed on those two counts. Margaret Thatcher did not bite for heavy
:40:33. > :40:39.industry in the way she fought for the farming industry or the
:40:39. > :40:47.financial industry. The result is a terrible one. In Wales, strong
:40:47. > :40:54.support and fond memories of a woman dubbed by some the Celtic iron Lady.
:40:54. > :41:00.Missions -- Mrs Thatcher shattered the glass ceiling because he proved
:41:00. > :41:05.that a woman with intelligence, personality, strong determination
:41:05. > :41:15.and willpower can achieve whatever they want with hard work. She did
:41:15. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:24.that not by gift, but by sheer determination. She had regular
:41:24. > :41:30.dealings and meetings with the then Prime Minister. It was rather like
:41:30. > :41:35.taking an exam because you had to know your stuff and do your work!
:41:35. > :41:40.You would ask your questions about your constituency, the work you were
:41:40. > :41:46.doing, what you were planning to do, how things were in north Wales.
:41:46. > :41:51.And then, after two hours, she looked at her watch and said, the
:41:51. > :42:00.meeting is over. Shall we go upstairs? Would you like a copy or a
:42:00. > :42:05.drink? So she changed. Suddenly, she became a Prime Minister in her own
:42:05. > :42:12.home. People didn't see that side of her. They just thought she was quite
:42:13. > :42:19.divisive. But remember, she was a woman in a man's world. In the 80s,
:42:19. > :42:23.women in politics at it very hard, and she had a tough time because she
:42:23. > :42:28.broke the mould of the Conservative party. She was a grocers daughter,
:42:28. > :42:36.went to grammar school, got a scholarship, she had no silver
:42:37. > :42:46.spoons. And she made it! Another former Welsh MEP has been vocal this
:42:46. > :42:53.week. He spoke in Wednesday 's debate. He believes Baroness
:42:53. > :42:56.Thatcher deserves recognition. important to recognise the strength
:42:56. > :43:02.of character and personality and recognise she achieved a number of
:43:02. > :43:08.things that this country, notably, the Falklands victory. At the same
:43:08. > :43:12.time, we have to have a balanced picture and recognise that Mrs
:43:12. > :43:18.Thatcher pursued extreme economic policies which had an awful impact
:43:18. > :43:24.on places like south Wales, the ballot in particular. I well
:43:24. > :43:29.remember the miners strike, in which she relished in taking on the miners
:43:29. > :43:35.who, in my view, which is defending their jobs, families and
:43:35. > :43:45.communities. In my view, no prime minister of our country should
:43:45. > :43:46.
:43:46. > :43:50.declare a group of individuals like this. We have to have a balanced
:43:50. > :43:57.picture of Margaret Thatcher. She was a notable prime minister, but
:43:57. > :44:01.the many people, she will not be a great prime minister. On one thing
:44:01. > :44:06.all politicians and commentators are agreed: We have witnessed the
:44:06. > :44:10.passing of one of the most significant political figures in
:44:10. > :44:14.British history. Opinions on Baroness Thatcher tend to be
:44:14. > :44:24.polarised. The debate over her legacy will stretch along into the
:44:24. > :44:24.
:44:24. > :44:31.future. He will be going to the funeral on Wednesday. It has been a
:44:31. > :44:36.difficult week. People are already starting to weigh up how legacy.
:44:36. > :44:43.brought me into politics in the first place. I was at school during
:44:43. > :44:49.her early years. This, the me, was a huge time, particularly given how
:44:49. > :44:54.bad the state of the country was in 1979 and what she managed to do. By
:44:54. > :44:59.the time I went to university, the country had turned around and was
:44:59. > :45:04.already starting to show enormous amounts of growth because of the
:45:04. > :45:11.restructuring she had been brave enough to put into place. She did
:45:11. > :45:13.have a very divisive nature, but she wasn't very difficult times. We have
:45:13. > :45:21.two bearing mind that at times of stress, you need a very strong
:45:21. > :45:24.leader. My colleagues in Europe right now can't understand why we
:45:24. > :45:33.are talking about some of the negative aspects of structural
:45:33. > :45:40.reform. Actually, they see she was the world stateswoman. They see she
:45:40. > :45:44.gave them the real aspiration for democratic societies. Particularly
:45:44. > :45:50.my colleagues in Poland and the Czech Republic, they can't
:45:50. > :45:58.understand why we aren't celebrating her life right now. Not everybody is
:45:58. > :46:04.celebrating her life. You were in the Commons from 1974. What are your
:46:04. > :46:10.reflections on her political contribution? I disagree with
:46:10. > :46:15.everything she did, both in terms of Wales and the Welsh economy, the
:46:15. > :46:19.extremes of wealth and poverty which developed under her government.
:46:20. > :46:29.Also, the assertion there is no alternative, the way she delayed
:46:30. > :46:34.
:46:34. > :46:39.peace in Ireland, the miners, I supported them. And I will not be
:46:39. > :46:48.taking part in any obituaries to Margaret Thatcher. You weren't in
:46:48. > :46:55.Westminster last week. No, I won't be. I don't believe it is relevant.
:46:55. > :47:04.In the past, though, when you were in the presiding officer's chair,
:47:04. > :47:10.Harold Wilson, there was a debate then? I am not criticising the fact
:47:10. > :47:16.we have an opportunity for an obituary. But now I don't have to
:47:16. > :47:21.take part in such a thing because I think it would be hypocritical. I am
:47:21. > :47:25.very concerned that all this discussion about her so-called
:47:25. > :47:32.legacy is only strengthening those people who believe that austerity is
:47:32. > :47:38.the answer to the economic situation we are in. Pick up on that point.
:47:38. > :47:44.have another side to this. My grandfather was a minor in the 1920s
:47:44. > :47:54.and 30s and lost his job. He and my grandmother had to move to London
:47:54. > :47:55.
:47:55. > :48:00.because there were no jobs in South Wales. This was a ongoing problem.
:48:00. > :48:05.He was a trade union representative, so I have history here. But at
:48:05. > :48:10.school, I studied the miners strike and decided the economic arguments
:48:10. > :48:14.being put forward was such that we had to actually make reforms
:48:14. > :48:20.possible. She had the strength of character to do that and sowed the
:48:20. > :48:28.seeds for what we have as an entrepreneurial country right now.
:48:28. > :48:33.To be fair, I grew up there for my first jobs with that legacy of
:48:33. > :48:37.growth and opportunity in Britain, where people suddenly wanted to come
:48:37. > :48:42.here. Our universities became the best in the world, our businesses
:48:42. > :48:46.were attracting other foreign investment in. She had a strategy.
:48:47. > :48:56.Even though she took on the trade unions, she also had a strategy that
:48:57. > :48:57.
:48:57. > :49:03.changing the economy. Built on financial services, a disaster for
:49:03. > :49:09.the UK economy. I was very friendly with Peter Walker. He wouldn't agree
:49:09. > :49:14.with any of that! I support the line taken by the Conservatives in the
:49:14. > :49:21.Welsh office because the policies pursued were more of a consensual
:49:22. > :49:31.policy. You can't have a prime minister or first Minister who takes
:49:32. > :49:33.
:49:33. > :49:39.on the people that didn't vote for her. Do you understand and respect
:49:39. > :49:43.views like that? When people are talking about the funeral, there
:49:43. > :49:50.will be protests there, and you understand why people feel like
:49:50. > :49:54.that? I do. I have family members who feel just as strongly. But it is
:49:54. > :49:59.important to understand whether United Kingdom was in 1979 and where
:49:59. > :50:06.it was when she left. It is critically important for me to
:50:06. > :50:13.understand, as somebody who was a child at the time, that, in 79, only
:50:13. > :50:19.15% of the U.K.'s GDP came private enterprise. That is her legacy. It
:50:19. > :50:23.should be something we celebrate because the UK has been at the head
:50:24. > :50:28.of the European curve. Many member states are struggling with
:50:28. > :50:34.structural reforms because they took a much longer approach to it.
:50:34. > :50:43.Whether you have that delivered quickly so you can grow or not, for
:50:43. > :50:46.decades afterwards, we are all now in a situation whereby we have two
:50:46. > :50:52.still go on with structural reforms. Past governments have been
:50:53. > :51:01.a little less able to deliver as firmly as she was able to. Kate is
:51:01. > :51:06.focusing on the economic impact. Others may focus on more of a social
:51:06. > :51:13.impact. What do you think about the idea of protesting at the funeral?
:51:13. > :51:19.don't favour protesting. I would advise people to be absent, to do
:51:19. > :51:24.something positive on the day. I find it very difficult, myself, and
:51:24. > :51:30.I am very glad I'm not in a position where I have to take part in events
:51:30. > :51:34.of this kind because I do believe, very sincerely, that the failure to
:51:34. > :51:39.think in terms of a society where people have to cooperate with each
:51:39. > :51:45.other and live together and shared together and think of a society in
:51:45. > :51:51.terms of individualism to the extent that I believe she tried in her firm
:51:51. > :51:59.-- famous sermon on the mount to subvert Christian theology. I
:51:59. > :52:05.remember how the archbishop took her on. Then, of course, there was the
:52:05. > :52:12.Falklands War, and I knew people from the military who were operating
:52:12. > :52:17.the policy she took on then, and it was a near total disaster. In all
:52:17. > :52:24.fairness, that is not a view shared. A large number of military
:52:24. > :52:29.personnel have come out and spoken so highly favourably of her. Some of
:52:29. > :52:34.the leading Welsh victims of some of the attacks in the Falklands have
:52:34. > :52:40.spoken so lovingly of what she was achieving as a leader. This
:52:40. > :52:43.highlights the division in views. And now the measles outbreak. This
:52:43. > :52:46.weekend, more than 2,000 children have been vaccinated at special MMR
:52:46. > :52:49.drop-in clinics across South Wales. The clinics across South Wales have
:52:49. > :52:53.been held in a bid to tackle the outbreak in the Swansea area. The
:52:53. > :52:55.number of cases there is now just under 700 but isn't expected to peak
:52:55. > :52:58.for at least another four weeks. Public health officials have been
:52:58. > :53:03.warning that around 40,000 children across Wales still need to be
:53:03. > :53:06.vaccinated against measles. Mick Antoniw, the Pontypridd AM and
:53:06. > :53:16.member of the Assembly's Health Committee, joins us from our Cardiff
:53:16. > :53:24.
:53:24. > :53:30.newsroom. Swansea is the focus of this outbreak. Inevitably, people
:53:30. > :53:39.will be concerned of the spread. Should parents be concerned?
:53:39. > :53:42.Concerned enough to ensure their children are vaccinated. Even up to
:53:42. > :53:48.teenagers. In my own health authority, there have only been
:53:48. > :53:52.three cases of measles, but it isn't -- but it is very active in order to
:53:52. > :54:00.ensure those teenagers are being vaccinated now to avoid catching the
:54:00. > :54:02.disease over the course of the coming weeks. The Welsh government
:54:02. > :54:08.has ruled out compulsory vaccination. I was talking to a
:54:08. > :54:14.nurse and she was saying that every year, there has been a spike in
:54:14. > :54:19.September or October when students are going to university and who have
:54:19. > :54:24.not been vaccinated. Do you think compulsory immunisation should be
:54:24. > :54:28.introduced? I don't think it is necessary because what is more
:54:28. > :54:33.important is we think carefully about upping our game in terms of
:54:33. > :54:38.educating people about the risks. What we have now is a generation
:54:38. > :54:44.who, to some extent, believe there is not an underlying problem there
:54:44. > :54:47.is vaccination doesn't take place. In the post-war period, people
:54:47. > :54:54.understood vaccination much more. Now, we need to re-educate people
:54:54. > :54:59.that there is a risk there. That is what is important. You are a member
:54:59. > :55:06.of the health committee. Is this something you will be discussing
:55:06. > :55:11.with the new chair? I certainly think we will want to discuss and
:55:11. > :55:15.see whether there were lessons to be learned from this outbreak. Some of
:55:15. > :55:20.those discussions may be beneficial to the whole of the United Kingdom
:55:20. > :55:25.because this is not just a Wales issue, although I think the
:55:25. > :55:30.authorities have responded very effectively. We need to know what we
:55:30. > :55:35.need to do to ensure more people understand the importance of
:55:35. > :55:42.vaccination and the consequences of non-vaccination, and how we engage
:55:42. > :55:48.with people to dispel any concerns they may have. The downturn of
:55:48. > :55:54.vaccination in the 90s arose out of a scare of the risk of autism which
:55:54. > :56:04.proved to be false. Maybe, the mistake from the past is we didn't
:56:04. > :56:06.
:56:06. > :56:09.appreciate sufficiently the consequences of that. The Welsh
:56:09. > :56:19.government has ruled out compulsory immunisation. Is that the right
:56:19. > :56:19.
:56:19. > :56:26.decision quiz Mac --? We need to work with individuals to identify
:56:26. > :56:30.those who have not been vaccinated and to persuade them. Here, it is an
:56:30. > :56:36.international issue as well. We were looking at the potential of getting
:56:36. > :56:44.rid of measles from the world. Now, of course, we won't be able to do
:56:44. > :56:49.that. We need to support the clinical advice we have had, and all
:56:49. > :56:56.of us had to take that advice seriously and to pursue it and
:56:56. > :57:00.explain to people why it is a social responsibility issue. In the
:57:00. > :57:10.headlines, this outbreak in Swansea, I don't know if you have discussed
:57:10. > :57:15.it with any of your colleagues in Europe. Part of this is local. On an
:57:15. > :57:21.immunisation level, data suggests 95% of the population have to be
:57:21. > :57:28.immunised. I have to say I have sympathy with the parents here. My
:57:28. > :57:32.own children, it was right in the middle of the entire scare when, in
:57:32. > :57:38.particular, I was worried about my son and was trying to get some
:57:38. > :57:44.expert advice on whether or not I should vaccinate him. I was in the
:57:44. > :57:49.privileged position of understanding the science. And I had access to
:57:49. > :57:53.world leading scientists at the time. Not one of them told me to do
:57:53. > :58:00.it. If they were not confident at the time, I don't think they blamed
:58:00. > :58:05.me for not giving my son the vaccine. I gave my son the single
:58:05. > :58:11.vaccines. I felt very strongly he should be immunised, but felt
:58:11. > :58:15.strongly about not taking the risk with the vaccine. The year before
:58:15. > :58:19.this study came out, the UK government withdrew the single
:58:19. > :58:25.measles vaccine. Even when they knew there was a problem, the government
:58:25. > :58:30.didn't allow that license to be renewed. That is a mistake of
:58:30. > :58:38.policy. When the media blow up these things... This was published in the
:58:38. > :58:44.Lancet. It wasn't something that people could not ignore. The media
:58:44. > :58:50.actually blew it up into something very large when this was only 12
:58:50. > :58:54.patients studied. We have to take great caution here. The public
:58:54. > :59:01.health messages need to come out. Politicians also need to understand
:59:01. > :59:05.that when people are worried, they need to find alternatives.
:59:05. > :59:15.Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:59:15. > :59:19.
:59:19. > :59:27.week in 60 seconds. Flags were flown at half-mast at the national
:59:27. > :59:30.assembly and Parliament to mark the death of Baroness Thatcher. The
:59:30. > :59:35.Bridgend MP said with European countries cutting defence spending,
:59:35. > :59:40.it was important the governments across Europe worked together. She
:59:40. > :59:47.called for one for all and all for one. Alan Davies said farmers would
:59:47. > :59:54.be allowed to bury animals on their land. European restrictions were
:59:54. > :00:02.relaxed because farmers were unable to dispose of stock. And the merger
:00:02. > :00:10.of the social services department is unlikely. Council officers advised
:00:10. > :00:12.the pooling of budgets represented a significant risk. The Welsh
:00:12. > :00:22.government has been encouraging authorities to work collaboratively
:00:22. > :00:34.