:01:23. > :01:33.bovine TB at English universities, is there a call for use Dom at 12
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :32:45.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1871 seconds
:32:45. > :32:48.about to kick off a Civil War on the subject?
:32:48. > :32:54.A call for more effort to directing and harnessing Welsh research to
:32:54. > :33:00.address the problem of bovine TB. Joining me throughout today's
:33:00. > :33:08.programme, to MPs. Roger Williams and Nick morning. First, the main
:33:08. > :33:11.story. Europe. Downing Street is saying that ministers will be guided
:33:11. > :33:21.to abstain if there is a Commons vote on EU referendum. Later this
:33:21. > :33:22.
:33:22. > :33:30.week, around 100 Tory backbenchers or going to sign saying that they
:33:30. > :33:34.are concerned that the Queen's speech did not contain a reference.
:33:34. > :33:39.I mentioned 100 backbenchers there, rebels, are you one of them?
:33:39. > :33:43.probably will be. I am a signatory to the letter which is the basis
:33:43. > :33:48.upon this amendment. I would not describe myself as a rebel. I would
:33:48. > :33:53.argue this is the main stay of the Conservative party. What message
:33:53. > :33:57.does that give to the Prime Minister? He was minded to let
:33:57. > :34:02.ministers and other members of the Government to have a free vote on
:34:02. > :34:05.this. He has changed his mind. What does that say on his leader
:34:05. > :34:12.leadership? I'm not sure that's the case. What I am seeing is the party
:34:12. > :34:16.trying to make clear a message that we do need the referendum. That
:34:16. > :34:19.referendum and the timetable of 2017 is something I support. I feel that
:34:19. > :34:23.in this day and age, there is a lack of trust in politics and
:34:23. > :34:29.politicians. We need to try and legislate now in order to make sure
:34:29. > :34:32.that a gate is set for 2017. I think this is necessary to make sure to
:34:32. > :34:36.show that we are serious. I heard the Education Secretary, Michael
:34:36. > :34:40.Gove, speaking this morning. He said that would not be possible because
:34:40. > :34:47.you are in a coalition. It is not in the Coalition Agreement. That may be
:34:47. > :34:52.the case. The Liberal Democrat Hardy did have a promise of a referendum.
:34:52. > :34:57.I know that Nick Clegg has broken one of his main promises in that
:34:57. > :35:02.referendum but -- in that manifesto but they must be put to the test. If
:35:02. > :35:06.we promise it referendum and decided to legislate for it in 2017? --
:35:06. > :35:11.2017, I think the Liberals should know their manifesto and it is
:35:11. > :35:14.something that supports their cause. There is no history of Conservative
:35:15. > :35:19.MPs going against the Queen's speech, an against it, do you think
:35:19. > :35:24.this is worth going into the history books for? I think it is certainly
:35:24. > :35:27.an important issue. Personally, is the Prime Minister did manage to get
:35:27. > :35:31.some significant concessions then I would be putting to remain within
:35:31. > :35:36.the European Union. I do feel that we need to lance the boil. This
:35:36. > :35:39.issue has been a plague on politics for 20 years, I would argue. It is
:35:39. > :35:42.about time that we committed ourselves to a referendum so that
:35:42. > :35:47.the people of Wales and the United Kingdom can make a decision as to
:35:47. > :35:49.whether they want to stay within a reform European Union or whether to
:35:50. > :35:52.turn their backs on the institution. My own view is a reformed European
:35:52. > :35:55.Union is something which is worth working towards and aspiring to but
:35:55. > :35:58.we need to give the people of this country able to give the people of
:35:58. > :36:03.this country a vote on the issue. There is a danger, isn't there, that
:36:03. > :36:08.you are seen as more of a moderate backbencher, is there not a danger
:36:08. > :36:13.that that you will be dragged along with those who want out of the EU at
:36:13. > :36:20.all costs? If I am a moderate Euro-sceptics and I am happy to take
:36:20. > :36:25.that description. I have altered in an instant -- against an increase in
:36:25. > :36:28.the Euro budget. Whether you are in favour or against, you have to
:36:28. > :36:32.acknowledge that the people of the United Kingdom feel that they have a
:36:32. > :36:39.right to vote on this. My own preference would be able to 2017,
:36:39. > :36:41.after renegotiation. We need to address that lack in trust in
:36:42. > :36:45.politicians of all parties. By trying to legislate now for a
:36:45. > :36:49.referendum, we would be telling the people of Wales and the rest of the
:36:49. > :36:54.country that we are serious about having a referendum in 2017. Don't
:36:54. > :37:00.go anywhere. I would bring to do this. -- I am going to bring in a
:37:00. > :37:05.studio guests. What you say to that that and a note referendum was
:37:05. > :37:09.included in your manifesto? First Hull, can I say that this amendment
:37:09. > :37:14.seems to be a tactical amendment. It is not going to have any particular
:37:14. > :37:21.impact. It might have an impact on the internal workings of the
:37:21. > :37:23.Conservative party. That is their own business. We both voted for a
:37:23. > :37:25.Conservative legislation that committed the UK to having a
:37:25. > :37:29.referendum if there was a fundamental reform of the European
:37:29. > :37:32.Union in and the change in the treaty. That is what was in the
:37:32. > :37:42.Liberal Democrat manifesto. That, in effect, would be an in-out
:37:42. > :37:44.
:37:44. > :37:48.referendum. I want to see the EU reformed. There is lots to be done.
:37:48. > :37:55.I want to see the issue of a free, open, single market is retained and
:37:55. > :38:05.been able to do those things cross-border food Ed Miliband does
:38:05. > :38:07.
:38:07. > :38:12.not need a -- want a referendum. To you. He described himself as the
:38:12. > :38:16.mainstream over this but isn't. He is one of the 70 of 300 Conservative
:38:16. > :38:19.MPs that or a minority. What is going on is that they're talking
:38:19. > :38:22.about Europe because their anti-European. I don't think they
:38:22. > :38:27.properly understand the difficulty this could cause for the British
:38:27. > :38:36.economy if we talk about coming out now. You're shaking your head.
:38:36. > :38:40.Certainly, I find that script and inaccurate. I think the main view is
:38:40. > :38:42.rebuffed the Euro-sceptic but any pragmatic manner. Most of us would
:38:42. > :38:46.want to remain within the European Union but recognise the need for
:38:46. > :38:52.reform. There is something odd about having a party aspiring, such as the
:38:52. > :39:00.Labour Party, denying the rights of this Government ace on the matter.
:39:00. > :39:04.We think of having a referendum in 2017 would mean that we would be
:39:04. > :39:08.seeing to companies who want to invest in the country that the UK is
:39:08. > :39:11.going to be closed for business for the four years. Holding a referendum
:39:12. > :39:15.doesn't mean that you want to come out, does it? What it says is the
:39:15. > :39:18.country doesn't know where it is going. If you earn international
:39:18. > :39:21.business that wants to get into the largest trading work it in the
:39:21. > :39:25.world, you want to make sure you make investments for the long-term.
:39:25. > :39:28.This indecision, what is effectively an emotional breakdown in the
:39:28. > :39:34.Conservative party, is getting in the way of good government and
:39:34. > :39:39.against the interest of the country. They have to let this go. It is in
:39:39. > :39:43.labour's interest for them not to let it go, is it not? We think about
:39:43. > :39:46.the country's best national interest. It is sometimes said that
:39:46. > :39:49.if you are in favour of membership of the European Union, albeit with
:39:49. > :39:53.reform, then you must be against a referendum. That is not the case, as
:39:53. > :39:59.far as I'm concerned. We need to reset the agenda as far as the EU is
:39:59. > :40:03.concerned. Now, for a generation. We need to get on with that, once the
:40:03. > :40:06.poison and do the stuff. Could I give an example of why it is so
:40:06. > :40:11.important to keep the single market? 40% of the lamb we produce
:40:11. > :40:14.is export it to the EU. The French farmers would like nothing better
:40:14. > :40:18.than to have the opportunity to put up a barrier against Welsh lamb.
:40:18. > :40:23.That is something that we have to avoid or all of the rural areas in
:40:23. > :40:28.Wales and across the United Kingdom. Briefly. European reform is
:40:28. > :40:32.important. It is not just because of the Eurozone and the difficulties
:40:32. > :40:37.they are facing but primarily, they are facing an issue of austerity. We
:40:37. > :40:40.need to get our economy going. In the valleys, we have had tremendous
:40:40. > :40:45.European investment to get the steelworks site changed. And your
:40:45. > :40:48.party wants to cut the European budget? We want to get transport
:40:48. > :40:58.infrastructure, including European support. That is the important
:40:58. > :40:58.
:40:59. > :41:03.thing. Get other -- Guto Bebb, how do you see this going? Do you think
:41:03. > :41:06.the Speaker will introduce this and get the opportunity to vote? I can
:41:07. > :41:09.speak in front the half of the Speaker but if there is an
:41:09. > :41:13.opportunity to vote, and Conservative backbenchers board,
:41:13. > :41:17.according to their conscience, then I think there will be a significant
:41:17. > :41:20.vote in favour of this amendment. I subscribed to the point that it is a
:41:20. > :41:23.strong argument to be made about the benefits Wales is derived from the
:41:23. > :41:30.EU but that argument should be had with the people of Wales and the UK
:41:30. > :41:34.as part of it, not excluded. final question. You are a member of
:41:34. > :41:37.the 1922 committee, a powerful backbench Conservative committee,
:41:37. > :41:41.has there been any discussion about the leadership of the Prime
:41:41. > :41:44.Minister? Not in terms of leadership. There has been a lot of
:41:44. > :41:51.discussion about the best way forward with EU but not in relation
:41:51. > :41:54.to the Prime Minister. Thank you. A leading scientist is calling on
:41:54. > :42:00.the Government to organise and fund Wales -based research into bovine
:42:00. > :42:04.TB. This is to find a solution to the problem that has dramatically
:42:04. > :42:06.increased here over the last 20 years. Ministers are committed to
:42:06. > :42:10.eradicating the disease of the most recent figures and showcases our
:42:10. > :42:12.increasing. This map shows the isolated pockets
:42:12. > :42:16.This map shows the isolated pockets where TB and cattle was reported in
:42:16. > :42:17.This map shows the isolated pockets where TB and 23 years later, the
:42:17. > :42:23.where TB and 23 years later, the disease was prevalent in large parts
:42:23. > :42:28.disease was prevalent in large disease was prevalent in large
:42:28. > :42:31.In 1986, there were Recently, that has gone up to 300 cases across the
:42:31. > :42:35.whole region. It has increased dramatically.
:42:35. > :42:39.An outbreak of bovine TB is to matter for reform. Cattle have to be
:42:39. > :42:42.destroyed and there are restrictions on the movement of others. Professor
:42:42. > :42:50.Les Bailey and his team at Cardiff University are investigating whether
:42:50. > :42:52.natural products, including could be used to eradicate the disease.
:42:52. > :42:56.about bringing people together and see if we have enough to achieve the
:42:56. > :43:02.aim in Wales. If we do, we have to work it with a disappointing --
:43:02. > :43:05.funding and supporting it. The Welsh Government says the budget is
:43:05. > :43:10.jointly held between England and Wales and it is involved in
:43:10. > :43:16.administering it. Ministers change their bovine TB policy. Previous,
:43:16. > :43:19.the one-day badger cull because many blame the animals for spreading the
:43:19. > :43:22.disease. We have been supporting a call for many years and support the
:43:22. > :43:31.coal that is going on in England and that is going to go on later on this
:43:31. > :43:38.year. We welcome the coal that was planned for the area because there
:43:38. > :43:42.is a high level of disease. -- the cult.
:43:42. > :43:46.Here in Pembrokeshire, the Welsh Government is in the second year of
:43:46. > :43:52.a five-year agger vaccination programme. Investors say it as part
:43:52. > :43:56.of their efforts to eradicate bovine TB in Wales. The conservation group
:43:56. > :43:58.The Wildlife Trust supports the vaccination of badgers and has
:43:58. > :44:03.backed calls for further research. The Welsh Government have been very
:44:03. > :44:07.good about being science lead. They are looking at the evidence that has
:44:07. > :44:10.been presented. We would certainly support any research that looked at
:44:10. > :44:17.alternatives, novel approaches. There is always benefit in doing
:44:17. > :44:24.that. The total number of animals slaughtered in Wales because of
:44:24. > :44:26.bovine TB rose from 8068 in 2011 to 9308 in 2012. The Welsh Government
:44:27. > :44:31.estimated that almost �30 million was paid to farmers in compensation
:44:31. > :44:40.in 2011. We really do appreciate the impact that it is having on farm
:44:40. > :44:43.businesses. In fact, as an organisation, we have cattle. We
:44:43. > :44:51.really do understand is that the situation has caused. The trouble is
:44:51. > :44:58.that Colin has been so firmly put as the alternative. -- that killing. It
:44:58. > :45:04.doesn't solve the situation. increasing number of cases should be
:45:04. > :45:08.a wake-up call that the disease is are Wales, some say. Others say that
:45:08. > :45:13.the policy of vaccinating badgers won't work and only the badger mass
:45:13. > :45:19.kill woodwork. They say there is no need for research -- the Government
:45:19. > :45:23.say there is no need for research because they badgers have been
:45:23. > :45:25.proven to be specific. It doesn't need to be washed Civic. There is
:45:25. > :45:29.very little difference between the cell West of England, Ireland and
:45:29. > :45:36.Wales. Therefore, that research is already there, the science is
:45:36. > :45:39.already there. What we feel is to get on and reduce badger numbers.
:45:39. > :45:48.They wish -- the Welsh Government said there had been no approach
:45:48. > :45:53.about Wales only research. Roger Williams, we had a hint from
:45:53. > :45:58.Brian about the exposure to TB here in Wales. You represent a new role
:45:58. > :46:03.-- a rural constituency. This might not have been in the headlines for a
:46:04. > :46:10.while but is still here, isn't it? got a letter last Friday to say that
:46:10. > :46:14.a neighbouring farm had got the actors and we were having to be
:46:14. > :46:18.tested. I spend a lot of time looking at the science around us and
:46:18. > :46:23.trying to eradicate it. I really do value research that is done. This is
:46:23. > :46:26.the first time I have heard of this particular avenue. I just wonder
:46:26. > :46:30.whether we should be investing in that immediately when that is so
:46:30. > :46:35.much work to be done on epidemiology and vaccines. Everybody would like
:46:35. > :46:38.to eradicate this without killing badgers but we just don't have the
:46:38. > :46:45.tools in the box at the moment. We need to research. At the moment, it
:46:45. > :46:48.is necessary. We will examine that later. Does it matter where research
:46:48. > :46:53.to give place? There is some research taking on Cardiff at those
:46:53. > :46:56.other going on in England. Doesn't matter when it happens? The Welsh
:46:56. > :47:00.Government say they have members in all of the Project board during the
:47:00. > :47:03.research. I'm not sure it does. If we do have distinct problems in
:47:03. > :47:07.Wales than that would deserve research especially here. I'm not
:47:07. > :47:12.sure that we do. I think we should get on with it. The key thing, I
:47:12. > :47:15.think, is getting a vaccine done sooner rather than later. If there
:47:15. > :47:19.are any extra resources, and it is very difficult to get that now with
:47:19. > :47:23.austerity, then it should be invested in getting the vaccine as
:47:23. > :47:27.soon as possible. The Welsh Government favoured area killed. It
:47:27. > :47:32.is in the second year of a five-year vaccination programme. Do you
:47:32. > :47:41.support that decision to turn away from killing the badgers? You've got
:47:41. > :47:44.to do the research. Good decision-making needs good data. We
:47:44. > :47:48.are only two years into a five-year programme. Let's see it through and
:47:48. > :47:53.go through it in as much detail as possible and then come out with good
:47:53. > :48:00.decision-making. You don't favour killing the badgers? Not now.
:48:00. > :48:04.moment, I think there is no other option. Everybody talks about the
:48:04. > :48:08.new vaccine, but it is the BCG vaccine which I had is a child and
:48:08. > :48:12.was developed in 1910. There is no new vaccine. At the moment, the
:48:12. > :48:17.European Union says they could not use this commercially on farms for
:48:17. > :48:22.another ten years. What do we do in the meantime? A lot of the research
:48:22. > :48:28.would indicate that you do get real benefits if you kill and hotspots
:48:28. > :48:30.where there are a large number of infected badgers. The pilot projects
:48:30. > :48:40.going on in England should proceed. We should reflect on the results
:48:40. > :48:40.
:48:40. > :48:43.that we get from that. We are two years into the five-year programme.
:48:43. > :48:46.The Wildlife Trust Now For The Latest Travel News: Said We Had To
:48:46. > :48:55.Wait Five Years To See The Results. That Is A Long Time Though, Isn't
:48:55. > :48:59.It? It Is. I Have Nothing Against Vaccination. In fact, I supported.
:48:59. > :49:03.It is a long way away from vaccinating cattle. Your vaccinating
:49:03. > :49:07.badgers, a different thing. The real control will have when we have a
:49:07. > :49:16.vaccine that we can use in commercial cattle on farms. We are
:49:16. > :49:24.ten years away from that. Nick Smith, in terms of this, what do
:49:24. > :49:30.people write you about? Farmers to contact me but it is usually around
:49:30. > :49:35.anti-social behaviour and stealing a farm gate. I have lots of animals --
:49:35. > :49:39.animal lists to who want to see badgers. They're against this. They
:49:39. > :49:43.are one of the biggest bits of my postbag. We will leave it there for
:49:43. > :49:53.now. Time for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:49:53. > :49:56.
:49:56. > :49:59.new laws in the Queen's speech showed the Coalition government's
:49:59. > :50:03.determination to reward hard work and support business. He said
:50:03. > :50:07.changes to our Assembly members are elected would offer more choice to
:50:07. > :50:10.candidates. Labour's Owen Smith described plans to allow plans to go
:50:10. > :50:15.stand in both constituencies and regional lists as a lucky loser's
:50:15. > :50:19.bill. Labour's the Anglesey councillors formed a coalition with
:50:19. > :50:23.independents to run the council. They said the 14 independents had a
:50:23. > :50:26.mandate to rule because they won the largest portion of the vote. Home
:50:26. > :50:31.Secretary Theresa May announced that they just let panel would re-examine
:50:31. > :50:37.the matter -- the murder of a private investigator. He was found
:50:37. > :50:39.in a south London pub car park with an axe in his head in 1987. Despite
:50:39. > :50:47.six police investigations, nobody has been convicted of the killing.
:50:47. > :50:56.Rosemary Butler, the Presiding Officer of Newport, congratulated
:50:56. > :51:00.Newport County as they returned to the football league after 25 years.
:51:00. > :51:04.Roger Williams, looking back on the past week there, we heard about the
:51:04. > :51:07.Daniel Morgan case and the decision by the Home Secretary to reopen it.
:51:07. > :51:13.You have worked very closely with the family. What is going to happen
:51:13. > :51:17.next? I have been working with them ever since I got elected. It has
:51:17. > :51:23.been a long, hard process. They have shown tremendous commitment and, at
:51:23. > :51:26.last, we have a Secretary of State who has decided to have a public
:51:26. > :51:30.inquiry. That will reveal the corruption and incompetence of the
:51:30. > :51:35.Metropolitan Police in this matter. There will also be feeding across to
:51:35. > :51:38.the Leveson Inquiry as well because of the police and media involvement.
:51:38. > :51:44.What are the family thing about this decision from Theresa May? Why do
:51:44. > :51:48.you think it is happening now? a meeting with Theresa May and the
:51:48. > :51:52.family and be so impressed the Home Secretary with their commitment and
:51:52. > :51:56.their tenacity over this, over 26 years, that she felt that she had to
:51:56. > :52:01.help them. I take my hat off to her and commend her on the action that
:52:01. > :52:07.she has taken. It has been described as a Hillsborough style inquiry. We
:52:07. > :52:09.all know what happened during that inquiry. Are you very much looking
:52:10. > :52:14.forward to seeing the results of this? Very much though. There have
:52:14. > :52:18.been at least four inquiries that have either been completely
:52:18. > :52:23.incompetent or, as the worst, corrupt. We need to get that out
:52:23. > :52:30.into the open. There are lessons to be learned. These are issues that
:52:30. > :52:32.still involve police apologies and we must make sure that no family --
:52:32. > :52:37.still involve police authorities, no family should have to put up with us
:52:37. > :52:39.again. Nick Smith, you're looking to get a ten minute rule Bill
:52:39. > :52:44.introduced in a subject that you have reason Prime Minister's
:52:44. > :52:51.Questions. It is about the alleged neglect of residents in care homes
:52:51. > :52:56.in South Wales. It was an operation which has been conducted by Gwent
:52:56. > :53:03.Police. Sadly the case was left on the table because one of the doctors
:53:03. > :53:06.involved in it was too unwell. It is an important topic. The families of
:53:06. > :53:09.the residents deserve justice and I am going to keep up the campaign to
:53:09. > :53:13.try to make sure that we have a public inquiry but also to change
:53:13. > :53:16.the law. There is going to be a social care dog, they sold come
:53:16. > :53:23.around very often. I'm going to try and make sure that we get that
:53:23. > :53:27.amendment put in that. -- asocial kerb ill. If there are issues of
:53:27. > :53:33.neglect, they can be prosecuted by the authorities. You need to get the
:53:33. > :53:37.backing of your party? The Labour frontbench are supportive of it as
:53:37. > :53:40.our surgeon conservatives. When I raised this, a couple of weeks ago,
:53:40. > :53:49.there was a hushed response in the House. They recognise that,
:53:49. > :53:53.unfortunately, lots of issues of neglect of old people. Operation
:53:53. > :53:59.Jasmine was the biggest investigation of care homes. It is
:53:59. > :54:04.unfortunately an ongoing issue. Final word. We saw David Jones they
:54:04. > :54:10.in the package. He was talking about dual candidacy. Do you support it?
:54:10. > :54:14.Yes. I had hoped that in the Queen's speech there may be another
:54:14. > :54:16.indication about how the Government was going to take forward some of
:54:17. > :54:22.the recommendations. The Government is going to reply to that report
:54:22. > :54:27.very shortly. We hope that within the compass of that, there may be an
:54:27. > :54:31.opportunity to do some of that work. What David Jones was talking about
:54:31. > :54:36.and does the work done by the last Labour government, does it? I don't
:54:36. > :54:40.support it. I think it is a shame and we will be making sure as a
:54:41. > :54:45.Welsh Parliamentary Labour Party that we have a good go at trying to
:54:45. > :54:48.work with David Jones on this and to make sure that he listens to the
:54:48. > :54:58.voice of, not just Welsh Labour, but the people. That means you want into
:54:58. > :54:59.
:54:59. > :55:04.changes mind? Yes. Why? It's the law. We need to take a view of it at
:55:04. > :55:07.the time. You never decide something in advance of any law changes. If
:55:07. > :55:13.circumstances change, you change with it. That was the famous quote,
:55:13. > :55:17.wasn't it? Let's see. For the moment, we are going to try and make
:55:17. > :55:25.sure this doesn't happen. Thank you both for coming into us. That is all