:01:26. > :01:29.say new rights for people who care for disabled or elderly relatives
:01:29. > :01:39.will be cost-neutral but can these major reforms be achieved at no
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :37:31.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2151 seconds
:37:31. > :37:33.The Welsh Government says legislation giving new rights to
:37:33. > :37:36.people who care for disabled or elderly relatives will be cost
:37:36. > :37:42.neutral but can major reforms to social services be achieved at no
:37:42. > :37:44.extra cost for the taxpayer? And we'll hear the Assembly
:37:44. > :37:48.Presiding Officer's concerns about the health and well-being of the
:37:49. > :37:51.media. Joining me throughout today's
:37:51. > :38:00.programme are two Assembly Members, the Conservative Nick Ramsay and
:38:00. > :38:05.Labour's Mick Antoniw. Good morning. Let's begin with the story in the
:38:05. > :38:09.papers affecting your party, the Conservatives, comments from Lord
:38:09. > :38:13.Howe, suggesting that David Cameron has lost control over his
:38:13. > :38:19.backbenchers over the matter of Europe.
:38:19. > :38:25.I think that's rather unfair of Lord Howe. I think he is making a point
:38:25. > :38:30.which the Conservative party shouldn't beat veering off into any
:38:30. > :38:35.direction. We are making the case to reform Europe. David Cameron is in
:38:35. > :38:40.more control there than any of the other party leaders. If you think he
:38:40. > :38:43.is control over Europe, there is a debate there over gay marriage. A
:38:43. > :38:49.suggestion that the Conservative whips will be happy if only half of
:38:49. > :38:53.the party rebel. That isn't control, is it? Any party does have
:38:53. > :38:56.independent views within it. I wouldn't want to be in a party that
:38:56. > :39:01.voted the same way. I think gay marriage will go through but there
:39:01. > :39:04.is an issue whether it goes through the House of Lords. I think David
:39:04. > :39:11.Cameron is leading from the front and we have a prayer minister who
:39:12. > :39:19.cares and is taking action. Nick, as an independent observer, you are
:39:19. > :39:23.obviously not one of those but is he in control of the backbenchers?
:39:23. > :39:27.isn't. The backbenchers are leading him by the nose and it is not clear
:39:27. > :39:30.which direction they are taking him in. In any other circumstance, I
:39:30. > :39:34.think there would be a general election called. The fact is that
:39:34. > :39:40.the Lib Dems will not support that step because they are worried about
:39:40. > :39:45.their imposition. Geoffrey Howe has already taken care of one
:39:45. > :39:50.Conservative prime minister, will he take out another one? I think he's
:39:50. > :39:53.making an important point about the role of the agenda and to which
:39:53. > :39:58.extent the minority party has actually taken control over the
:39:58. > :40:04.government agenda on Europe. You sit on the Labour back benches. Do you
:40:04. > :40:07.find it hard to bite your tongue sometimes? You have a dual role when
:40:07. > :40:11.you are government backbencher, one is you want to get your own
:40:11. > :40:15.government, your own party's manifested misters carried through
:40:15. > :40:18.but you also have a duty to scrutinise and hold governments to
:40:18. > :40:24.account so getting that balance right in a constructive way, I
:40:24. > :40:30.think, is the challenge. We might refer back to that after we hear
:40:30. > :40:32.about this next item. Health service and local -- Health service and
:40:32. > :40:35.local government leaders have cast doubt over Welsh Government claims
:40:35. > :40:38.that major reforms to social services can be achieved at no extra
:40:38. > :40:41.cost to the taxpayer. Ministers say legislation giving new rights to
:40:41. > :40:43.people who care for disabled or elderly relatives will be
:40:43. > :40:49.cost-neutral. But as Daniel Davies reports, councils and NHS bosses
:40:50. > :40:53.have questioned the claim. With growing demand from an ageing
:40:53. > :40:56.population, the Welsh government says it is time for radical changes
:40:56. > :41:02.to social care. It has published the Social Services and Well-being
:41:02. > :41:06.Bill, one of the first major pieces of legislation since the referendum
:41:06. > :41:10.to boost the Assembly 's powers in 2011. In the millennium Stadium
:41:11. > :41:16.behind me, the last government is holding an event to discuss this
:41:16. > :41:19.bill. It is the latest in a series of conferences to stay in touch with
:41:19. > :41:24.professionals in social services. We have spoken to some of those
:41:24. > :41:28.attending and they have questions about whether ministers can make the
:41:28. > :41:33.changes they want without putting pressure on the public purse.
:41:33. > :41:38.would have some concerns about that. Most health and social care services
:41:38. > :41:40.are struggling to meet demand today. That means that in order to release
:41:40. > :41:44.funding to have these innovative changes over the next couple of
:41:44. > :41:48.years it will be evolving will stop that would signal to me that a lot
:41:48. > :41:52.of older people living in their own homes, dementia sufferers and
:41:52. > :41:58.carers, are going have to wait until these things are put in place. We
:41:58. > :42:04.need these changes now and I think that means investment. The bill will
:42:04. > :42:08.mean more rights for carers who look after relatives. It will establish a
:42:08. > :42:12.National adoption service and more people will be able to control their
:42:12. > :42:16.own care budget. The government says all this will be cost neutral but
:42:16. > :42:20.there aren't many neutrals in this debate. Local councils, the health
:42:20. > :42:23.service, charities, they are all lining up to take aim at the
:42:23. > :42:29.government claimed that it can't legislate to transform social
:42:29. > :42:32.services at no extra cost. Those fears have been aired at an Assembly
:42:32. > :42:36.enquiry. The Welsh Local Government Association says the idea that the
:42:36. > :42:41.bill is cost neutral tinted cannot be the case and people in the NHS
:42:41. > :42:47.have their own doubts. We would question whether this can be cost
:42:47. > :42:51.neutral. And I know that there is a lot of background work going on and
:42:51. > :42:57.our colleagues at the Welsh Local Government Association are looking
:42:57. > :43:03.at cost and finances and financial implications and assessment of that.
:43:03. > :43:06.I think that, you know, is going to be a very important piece of work.
:43:06. > :43:13.It goes without saying in the current economic climate, costs
:43:13. > :43:18.continue to be challenged for the public purse, whether it be health
:43:18. > :43:22.services or social care or the third sector. All the evidence we have
:43:22. > :43:26.seen a committee to date are quite clear that it will not be cost
:43:26. > :43:34.neutral, there will be considerable cost incurred in the change. In the
:43:34. > :43:38.long term, they met very well -- they may be change and if we see the
:43:38. > :43:42.evidence, people may support it but they need to be more money spent in
:43:42. > :43:47.the initial period when we have no many.
:43:47. > :43:50.This is a long game. The laws which regulate social services have been
:43:50. > :43:53.built up over decades. The last government says it can use the
:43:53. > :43:58.Assembly 's law making muscle to signify all of that but it is doing
:43:58. > :44:02.it at a time when public spending is tight. There is another aspect of
:44:02. > :44:07.this bill that isn't clear. The rules on who qualifies for what kind
:44:07. > :44:12.of car. Eligibility criteria will be revealed further down the line but
:44:12. > :44:15.some Assembly Members want to see the detail now. Deputy social
:44:15. > :44:20.services Minister Gwenda Thomas has said there is a financial imperative
:44:20. > :44:23.for this bill to be cost neutral over the long-term. She says there
:44:23. > :44:30.is no more money. There is a promise of transition funding and help with
:44:30. > :44:34.staff training but Mrs Thomas said savings will be made by making the
:44:34. > :44:38.NHS and social services work more closely together. She rejects the
:44:38. > :44:41.claim that any many saved here will be outweighed by extra costs. She
:44:41. > :44:47.will face questions from the family members next month but on the issue
:44:47. > :44:53.of money, she has made it quite clear where the government stands.
:44:53. > :44:58.Mick Antoniw, you have scrutinised the health and social is -- the
:44:58. > :45:03.health and social care bill. Is it possible to be cost neutral?
:45:03. > :45:06.It is possible over a series of years. The question is what the
:45:06. > :45:12.short-term impact is and how that cost is managed and whether there is
:45:12. > :45:15.a need for intervention in order to start the ball rolling. And the
:45:15. > :45:19.other question, I suppose, is what are the indications if it isn't cost
:45:19. > :45:24.neutral because the reforms in the Bill will have become a decision,
:45:24. > :45:31.they will happen. What if it isn't cost neutral? What is happening is
:45:31. > :45:35.there is a scrutiny process. I listened to some of that evidence on
:45:35. > :45:38.the committee and there are concerns that we get it right on the actual
:45:38. > :45:43.cost indications. There clearly are savings along the way but a lot of
:45:43. > :45:51.other issues to do with costing, for example the UK government's response
:45:51. > :45:55.to the till not enquiry. We do not know what the impact is from when
:45:55. > :46:00.Vista -- from Westminster in terms of where the levels are set for
:46:00. > :46:05.elderly care. Nick Ramsay, that makes it difficult to do the figures
:46:05. > :46:10.because we don't have them. Whether Thomas is no clearer than you or I
:46:10. > :46:14.whether it will be cost neutral, it seems. The jury is out over whether
:46:14. > :46:18.this can be cost neutral or not, it seems. Judging by troubled that the
:46:18. > :46:23.vast government has had delivering things at cost neutral in the past,
:46:23. > :46:27.I would suspect that in the medium term it will be difficult to make it
:46:27. > :46:30.cost neutral. If savings are made in the long term it will be difficult
:46:30. > :46:33.to make it cost neutral. If savings are made in the long-term, then it
:46:33. > :46:37.can be cost neutral but are those going to be made? I'm not convinced.
:46:37. > :46:40.The important thing is we can't allow things to stay as they are. We
:46:40. > :46:45.have to modernise the care system and integrate it and there are
:46:45. > :46:51.clearly benefit from doing so. you surprised by the Thomas has says
:46:51. > :46:54.there is an imperative, it has to be cost neutral? I think if there has
:46:54. > :46:57.to be savings from that, it will have to result in it being cost
:46:57. > :47:01.neutral. The question is how you will enable local authorities to
:47:01. > :47:08.carry through those reforms and I think that is what the committees
:47:08. > :47:13.are going to be scrutinising. is a big at being made to the health
:47:13. > :47:18.and social services Bill. I think that is the problem. You have
:47:18. > :47:22.decided that the NHS and social care is not a priority. That is not the
:47:22. > :47:27.issue. The issue is how you fund care in the future and the big issue
:47:27. > :47:30.is what the UK proposals are to in respect to the response to the
:47:30. > :47:35.enquiry. The modernisation process clearly has to go ahead and that can
:47:35. > :47:39.be carried through within the existing budget. But politically
:47:39. > :47:42.speaking, your party, should these forms not because neutral in the
:47:42. > :47:47.short-term, they cost more than the government say they will cost
:47:47. > :47:50.committee will the government over that. Are you surprised Gwenda
:47:50. > :47:55.Thomas is giving you the opportunity to do that because nobody thinks it
:47:55. > :47:58.will be cost neutral from what I'm hearing. The parties have got to
:47:58. > :48:03.keep together because this is the future. We are the people benefiting
:48:03. > :48:08.from this in the future. Something has to be done, it is completely
:48:08. > :48:13.right about that. It is smoke and mirrors at the peasant. If it is not
:48:13. > :48:16.going to be cost neutral, say it isn't. As the official opposition,
:48:16. > :48:22.will you work with the government? Because you do support elements of
:48:22. > :48:26.this. Social care has to change but my party was the party that
:48:26. > :48:30.suggested we needed cuts in the area of social care and health so the
:48:30. > :48:33.government will have to say where the money will come from and it is a
:48:33. > :48:36.tough ask, I accept that. Of course I will work with the government to
:48:36. > :48:42.get things right but we have to be upfront with people if it isn't cost
:48:42. > :48:51.neutral. What are the indications here? Is done suggested in his
:48:51. > :48:59.piece, this is the first major pieces of registration? Legislation
:48:59. > :49:02.since the vote. It is vital, whether we work with children, the elderly,
:49:02. > :49:07.the disabled, all those who depend on care provision, we need to make
:49:07. > :49:12.sure there is a seamless system. Also for the reputation of the
:49:12. > :49:16.establishment. Exactly. This is one of the key planks of carrying
:49:16. > :49:20.forward and social agenda and that is why be have to carry on with
:49:20. > :49:23.support from all parties and that is widely scrutiny process is so
:49:23. > :49:28.important. It is correct that people ask about the cost, cost
:49:28. > :49:30.implications and listen to evidence. We are at the early stage of that
:49:31. > :49:35.legislation so we have to wait and see what the responses are from
:49:35. > :49:41.government. Sooner or later, if the Assembly can't get simple things
:49:41. > :49:44.right like this, there will be a training away of confidence. This
:49:44. > :49:47.isn't one of the simple things, I can assure you! Now where do you get
:49:47. > :49:50.most of your news about Wales? Programmes like this one, I hope,
:49:50. > :49:53.and long may it continue. But the Assembly's Presiding Officer has
:49:53. > :50:03.warned that people could have less access to post is within a decade
:50:03. > :50:03.
:50:03. > :50:06.and the situation will be damaging This week, Rosemary Butler will host
:50:06. > :50:10.a conference examining how Welsh news and politics are covered by the
:50:10. > :50:14.media and trying to address what is being described as the Welsh
:50:14. > :50:20.Democratic deficit. Ahead of that, I spoke to her in Cardiff Bay and
:50:20. > :50:22.asked her about the concerns and how they can be addressed. My concern is
:50:22. > :50:27.that the majority of people in Wales don't get their news from Wales,
:50:27. > :50:34.they get their news across from the Indus border and it tends to be
:50:34. > :50:41.England centric. Very few people, relatively, watch the BBC Wales or
:50:41. > :50:45.ITV Wales channels compared to UK news and therefore they are not
:50:45. > :50:49.getting the flavour of what is happening in the Assembly.
:50:49. > :50:53.Newspapers in Wales, we don't have a major national newspaper and the
:50:53. > :50:59.number of people reading the Welsh newspapers is actually reducing soap
:50:59. > :51:03.my concern is we are sleepwalking into this area where people will not
:51:03. > :51:08.be able to get access to what is happening in Wales. Most news
:51:08. > :51:13.organisations will cover news on merit so isn't it the case that
:51:13. > :51:20.Welsh politics isn't interesting enough? Thank you very much! I think
:51:20. > :51:23.I'm very interesting! That is not true because the differences in news
:51:23. > :51:27.telling Wales and England is enormous and that isn't being shown
:51:27. > :51:29.to people. In Wales we have the care standards Bill, which is a huge
:51:29. > :51:33.piece of legislation about the future of the care of older people
:51:33. > :51:37.in Wales. We've got the organ donation Bill going through and
:51:37. > :51:41.people so got the Silk Commission which is recommending there will be
:51:41. > :51:47.tax varying powers for Wales. A huge amount of interesting stuff going
:51:47. > :51:52.on. So whose fault is it that the message isn't getting across?
:51:52. > :51:56.think it is everyone's fault because we can shout from the rooftops but
:51:56. > :52:04.unless people have the opportunity to listen, watch and read, we would
:52:04. > :52:10.be able to do it. -- won't be able to do it. So what can the government
:52:10. > :52:15.to? Give some money for some news provision? That is what I'm hoping
:52:15. > :52:19.to discussed in the seminar. It will be certainly a new way forward if
:52:19. > :52:26.government money is put into English-speaking, English-language
:52:27. > :52:31.newspapers. Is that the right thing to do? I don't know. That is why the
:52:31. > :52:35.seminar will be interesting. We have influential people from the use of
:52:35. > :52:38.media taking part. We have influential people invited to be at
:52:38. > :52:43.the lecture to ask questions and hopefully we will get some kind of
:52:43. > :52:48.resolution from it. And what are the long-term effects for democracy in
:52:48. > :52:54.Wales? I think we are sleepwalking into a huge problem unless we
:52:54. > :52:59.address it now. We could end up, and with all due respect to you, with
:52:59. > :53:03.just the BBC covering what is going on in Wales with a reduced number of
:53:03. > :53:07.staff and I don't it will be good for television in Wales and it will
:53:07. > :53:12.be back to something like the Soviet Union where there is only one source
:53:12. > :53:19.of news. It is very important for the people of Wales to have a
:53:19. > :53:27.plurality of views. He flicks through the pages of UK
:53:27. > :53:31.newspapers and there is no coverage at all of Wales, why is that?
:53:31. > :53:34.was ideal officer, I think she sounds worried that Assembly Members
:53:34. > :53:39.are two interesting! There is an issue about scrutiny. I checked a
:53:39. > :53:44.scrutiny committee, Mick is involved in scrutiny. Beyond that, there is
:53:44. > :53:47.no House of Lords, the legislation here doesn't go to a second chamber
:53:47. > :53:52.so we rely very heavily on the media and the balance has been training
:53:52. > :53:56.away recently. There are certain things going through at the moment
:53:56. > :53:59.like the presumed consent organ donation Bill. If that was an
:53:59. > :54:03.English bill, it would be having massive attention from the media.
:54:03. > :54:09.The danger is it will pass here and nobody will be aware of it and that
:54:09. > :54:14.cannot be good for democracy. is coverage in Wales on that. How
:54:14. > :54:18.important is it that there is UK coverage? I think it does seem that
:54:18. > :54:21.people tend to get the majority of their information on what is going
:54:21. > :54:27.on in government from London based these agencies. The other problem is
:54:27. > :54:30.the extent to which people access information online and a lot of that
:54:30. > :54:34.is based in terms of Westminster information so it important to the
:54:34. > :54:39.Democratic race is that people know actually what is happening and it's
:54:39. > :54:43.important also that the media is able to present that in an
:54:43. > :54:47.interesting and digestible way and I think the two go together. Are you
:54:47. > :54:52.interesting enough, though? Do enough interesting things happen in
:54:52. > :54:56.the Assembly to justify coverage? Well, that's the million-dollar
:54:56. > :55:02.question, isn't it! I think what is happening in the Assembly is
:55:02. > :55:06.credibly important. Whether you like the Assembly or don't like it...
:55:06. > :55:12.the message isn't getting out there, is it? Whose fault is that? Your
:55:12. > :55:15.fault or our fault? Maybe a mixture of both but definitely the London
:55:15. > :55:20.media shouldn't think that just because there is a devolved
:55:20. > :55:24.settlement here, the people of Wales don't matter. We are still 5% of the
:55:24. > :55:28.population and if they will cover a health Bill that is not official in
:55:28. > :55:32.England and if there is something controversial here, why aren't they
:55:32. > :55:37.covering it? That is an issue for the media. They are missing a trick.
:55:37. > :55:40.They could have more stories. Westminster level, you hear
:55:40. > :55:45.government statement being issued that are making assumptions that are
:55:45. > :55:48.avoiding the fact there is a distinction within Wales so the
:55:48. > :55:52.problem goes not just in the media but it also goes to a government
:55:52. > :55:58.level and that is not a party point I am making. Maybe we've got to be a
:55:58. > :56:02.bit smarter from the Assembly said in terms of how to promote what we
:56:02. > :56:07.are doing and what are the important issues because there are some vital
:56:07. > :56:11.issues on social care, organ transplantation, education planning.
:56:12. > :56:15.These issues will affect the lives of 3 million people within Wales
:56:15. > :56:19.significantly and it's important they know what is happening. I would
:56:19. > :56:23.also say sometimes there is an over focus on the gossip stories, the
:56:23. > :56:27.small talk and what some Assembly Member has done indiscreetly
:56:27. > :56:33.somewhere. These are stories but if you look at that compared to the
:56:33. > :56:37.huge spending in the Assembly and the decisions affecting people's
:56:37. > :56:42.lives, there has to be a better balance between the showbiz and the
:56:42. > :56:45.mechanics of making this work. We both have a responsibility to
:56:45. > :56:55.make that happen. Time now for a quick look back at some of the
:56:55. > :56:55.
:56:55. > :57:00.political stories of the week in 60 The Assembly standards committee
:57:00. > :57:04.said AMC bring the institution into disrepute should in future face
:57:04. > :57:07.tougher sanctions, including suspension without pay. The most
:57:07. > :57:11.conservatives that a major shake-up of accident and emergency services
:57:11. > :57:15.in South Wales should be abandoned due to a crisis in demand. The NHS
:57:15. > :57:20.is due to announce a cut in the amount of specialist accident and
:57:20. > :57:25.emergency centres from seven to four or five. Carwyn Jones said doing
:57:25. > :57:28.nothing is not an option. Stephen Cobden added that the water bill
:57:28. > :57:38.announced in the Queen's speech would affect connotation in Wales.
:57:38. > :57:38.
:57:38. > :57:44.It said it was there to fight any attempt to interrupt the Wales water
:57:44. > :57:48.-- Welsh Water monopoly. And Michael fabricant suggested the Assembly be
:57:48. > :57:55.renamed the Welsh Parliament. David Jones told him there was no plans to
:57:55. > :58:05.rename, saying that is what matters is the legislation and not what it
:58:05. > :58:09.
:58:09. > :58:13.water story. Yes. The idea that we should introduce Cobb edition into a
:58:13. > :58:18.privatised water service. If there is any talk about swivel eyed loons,
:58:18. > :58:22.that is where it is. I'm so glad the Minister Alun Davies is standing up
:58:22. > :58:25.and saying this is not good for Wales and it doesn't make social
:58:25. > :58:31.science or economic sense that we should start messing about over who
:58:31. > :58:35.supplies water from one company to another. We could be going back 40
:58:35. > :58:39.or 50 years with water grabbing the headlines again? I think it will be
:58:39. > :58:44.grabbing the headlines but we have to take a stand in Wales, saying
:58:44. > :58:48.that we have to have water on a not for profit basis. The system is
:58:48. > :58:52.working and it doesn't make any commercial sense to mess about with
:58:52. > :58:58.watering between new controls supply of water. Water arrived free and we
:58:58. > :59:01.must make sure it is distributed in the most efficient way possible.
:59:01. > :59:05.Michael fabricant, one of your Conservative colleagues in
:59:05. > :59:10.Westminster, wants to change the name of the Assembly to the Welsh
:59:10. > :59:15.Parliament. You don't agree with him? Silly season has started
:59:15. > :59:19.early. I remember making this point last summer. It has taken a long
:59:19. > :59:23.time for people on the borders of Wales to start to get an idea around
:59:24. > :59:29.what the Assembly does and the importance of legislation. Why track
:59:29. > :59:35.that in the air and change the name to a parliament? Didn't the name
:59:35. > :59:37.idea come from Andrew RT Davies, your party leader? There is a
:59:37. > :59:41.difference of opinion within the party and probably within other
:59:41. > :59:44.parties as well. I think it is the National Assembly for Wales and that
:59:45. > :59:54.is how it should stay. You risk confusion if you rename it. No one
:59:54. > :59:58.out there, no body out there is asking me to rename it. So are they
:59:58. > :00:02.wasting their time talking about it? There is a point about the way
:00:02. > :00:06.the Assembly works and it does have more powers than it had before and
:00:06. > :00:12.we accept that. In terms of the name, you could change it but what