:01:38. > :01:43.Later in the programme... David Cameron is on the devolution trail
:01:43. > :01:53.making the case for Scotland to stay in the union. And a senior Welsh MP
:01:53. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :37:32.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2139 seconds
:37:33. > :37:36.thinks England needs more devolved Hello. On the Sunday Politics Wales,
:37:36. > :37:43.a warning that a failure to devolve power in England could threaten the
:37:43. > :37:47.future of the UK. And as BBC Cymru Wales begins a week looking at the
:37:47. > :37:50.economy, we get a Welsh Bangladeshi view on ethical trading. Joining me
:37:50. > :37:53.throughout today's programme are two Assembly members, both new to the
:37:53. > :37:59.Sunday Politics Wales studio. Good morning to Plaid Cymru's Lindsay
:37:59. > :38:02.Whittle and Labour's Mike Hedges. I've just mentioned that BBC Cymru
:38:02. > :38:05.Wales is running a special series of programmes and features on the
:38:05. > :38:08.economy this week. It's called What Is Wales Worth? Normally, when we
:38:08. > :38:11.talk about the economy, we look at international issues, the UK
:38:11. > :38:14.Government and the Welsh Government. But you two are both former council
:38:14. > :38:19.leaders. Mike Hedges, you lead Swansea Council. What can be done at
:38:20. > :38:23.a local government level to boost the economy? Local authorities are
:38:23. > :38:25.very big spenders, local procurement, buying as much locally
:38:26. > :38:34.as possible, giving planning permission to major development,
:38:34. > :38:41.making sure things are funded more specially and, more importantly, use
:38:41. > :38:45.local workers. One project was looking to come forward, and local
:38:45. > :38:50.authorities trying to promote development in their area to get
:38:50. > :38:59.people back into work. Lindsay Whittle, lots of things that he
:38:59. > :39:03.outlines. Is enough being done by local government? It is important
:39:03. > :39:08.that Welsh Government actually legislates for local government to
:39:08. > :39:16.actually procure their goods more locally. In Wales, only 52% of money
:39:16. > :39:23.is spent in Wales. The businesses go outside. In terms of figures, half
:39:23. > :39:30.of the spend, so how many millions of pounds? I do not know exactly
:39:30. > :39:34.is, but one annual budget is about �400 million per year. If that was
:39:34. > :39:39.spent locally, it would create local jobs, which we should be doing,
:39:39. > :39:48.spending locally, and no other government would allow this. In
:39:49. > :39:58.France, 98% of its money is spent in France. In England, 97%. In Wales,
:39:59. > :40:02.
:40:02. > :40:09.52%. That is unfair. It has to go up. And money in different areas
:40:09. > :40:14.needs to be spent within that area, but that can be very difficult, but
:40:14. > :40:20.within a city region area, we should be able to get up to 80%, which
:40:20. > :40:25.would make a huge difference. about legislation? That can be
:40:26. > :40:31.difficult. You have to stick to European rules, and also problems
:40:31. > :40:36.that some things cannot be sourced locally. But the idea of trying to
:40:36. > :40:41.push it up, aiming for 80%, is achievable and something I hope the
:40:41. > :40:45.Welsh Government would promote. we need to encourage Welsh local
:40:45. > :40:50.government to spend some of its millions it is keeping in the bank
:40:50. > :40:53.to improve the economy. Thank you for the time being.
:40:53. > :40:56.Any failure to devolve power in England threatens the future of the
:40:56. > :41:00.UK, two senior MPs from across the political divide have told this
:41:00. > :41:03.programme. The warning from select committee chairs, Labour's Graham
:41:03. > :41:06.Allen and David Davies, the Conservative MP for Monmouth, comes
:41:06. > :41:12.as the constitutions of Wales and Scotland are debated. Brian Meechan
:41:12. > :41:17.reports. David Cameron. David Cameron went to
:41:17. > :41:21.Scotland on Friday to tell his party conference that 2014 is about saving
:41:21. > :41:27.the union. Scott Booth appals make sure to vote on the independence
:41:27. > :41:32.referendum. -- Scottish people go to the polls. He said they should keep
:41:32. > :41:38.the union together. Downing Street has always been the centre of
:41:39. > :41:42.British political life. Since 1999, power from Wales, Northern Ireland
:41:42. > :41:47.and Scotland have passed to the First Minister in their respective
:41:47. > :41:54.capitals. But why should England be run by a centralised UK Government?
:41:54. > :41:58.The Labour MP, Graham Allen, here's the Constitutional Select Committee,
:41:58. > :42:03.which scrutinises the Deputy Prime Minister. He says political parties
:42:03. > :42:07.should deal with this. If they do not, the conventional political
:42:07. > :42:16.parties will leave the field free brother organisations, perhaps like
:42:16. > :42:20.UKIP, -- will leave the field free for the other organisations, such
:42:21. > :42:26.like UKIP, which will be a very bad deal for the people of England.
:42:26. > :42:31.Graham Allen argues that demolition has been a success I is there and
:42:31. > :42:36.did like to see it applied in England. And failure to do so will
:42:36. > :42:43.increase discontent. He believes that. All-macro it seems you get
:42:43. > :42:48.devolution if you jump up and down and make a noise. That should not
:42:48. > :42:52.just apply to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but to England. If
:42:52. > :42:57.you has those two key principles, evolution and union, we can put
:42:57. > :43:00.nationalism back in the box. The chair of the Welsh Affairs
:43:00. > :43:07.Select Committee, David Davies, agrees the status quo is not an
:43:07. > :43:12.option. Doing nothing, which is what we have done since 1999, is
:43:12. > :43:20.dangerous, playing into the hands of UKIP and perhaps other tumours
:43:20. > :43:27.parties, and undermines the union. -- and other extremist parties. UKIP
:43:27. > :43:33.leaves the Arab running scared. -- UKIP believes that some of the other
:43:33. > :43:38.parties are running scared. BC UKIP coming up, after they are despised,
:43:38. > :43:44.and they are reacting. And UKIP are now setting the agenda as we have
:43:44. > :43:49.seen. Labour had planned to devolve powers from Westminster to regional
:43:49. > :43:54.assemblies in England, coming to a shuddering halt after the Northeast
:43:54. > :43:58.delivered an emphatic no vote a decade ago. We need to look at the
:43:58. > :44:05.package that was on offer, and believe that is why it was rejected.
:44:05. > :44:11.London voted for a local government, voted for the mayor, and others dead
:44:11. > :44:14.vote no that, others endorsing it. Maybe there is a challenge for
:44:14. > :44:18.English colleagues, exploring devolution, and looking at models
:44:18. > :44:21.that work differently in different parts of England. The silk
:44:21. > :44:25.commission looked at whether the Assembly should have more powers
:44:25. > :44:31.including financial areas. A decision is imminent over whether
:44:31. > :44:39.Wales will get power over income tax and borrowing. They could then keep
:44:39. > :44:43.some money gathered in Wales, rather than relying on grants, and Welsh
:44:43. > :44:46.ministers could vary income tax rates. Is it sustainable to have
:44:46. > :44:52.evermore devolution for Wales and Scotland, while England's remains as
:44:52. > :44:56.it has always been? Critics say it is not. I can vote for higher
:44:56. > :45:02.student fees in England, whilst supporting a situation where shins
:45:02. > :45:07.do not pay those fees in Wales, -- where students do not pay those fees
:45:07. > :45:13.on wheels, which is unfair. That basic unfairness is likely to
:45:14. > :45:21.fracture the union. One of these days, taxpayers in England will see
:45:21. > :45:27.this is outrageous. Some in Wales may argue we have an Assembly, what
:45:27. > :45:31.difference does it make how England is governed? But when over 80% of
:45:31. > :45:36.the population in the UK lives in England, how it is governed affect
:45:36. > :45:40.the future of the whole of the UK. Lindsay Whittle, you do not really
:45:40. > :45:46.mind the future of the UK being threatened, do you? It is music to
:45:46. > :45:54.my ears. The London government is so irrelevant now, it has passed its
:45:54. > :45:58.sell by date, Wales and Scotland are moving forward, and support for the
:45:58. > :46:05.regions of England as well. Plaid Cymru is an international party.
:46:05. > :46:10.Imagine a Cornish one looking after the people of Cornwall. The
:46:10. > :46:14.Northeast rejected one, but I think now the time is right for a devolved
:46:14. > :46:24.British Parliament to go back out into the regions and look after
:46:24. > :46:28.people. A suggestion from Kevin from UKIP there that this was a case of
:46:28. > :46:31.the mainstream political parties, Labour, the Conservatives, looking
:46:31. > :46:41.after their own interests and taking part of the debate because they are
:46:41. > :46:41.
:46:41. > :46:44.scared UKIP will take some votes. That could be true. It is blatantly
:46:44. > :46:54.unfair we have assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but
:46:54. > :46:58.nothing in England. Across Europe, they have devolution with one
:46:58. > :47:06.exception of an island in Finland. Devolution means assemblies are
:47:06. > :47:09.dotted around, Spain, Germany, all having different assemblies.
:47:09. > :47:15.Basically regional assemblies, and there has to be an English
:47:15. > :47:21.Parliament, but it desperately needs one. The Mackay commission published
:47:21. > :47:26.towards the end of March, suggesting there might be a reduced role for
:47:26. > :47:30.Welsh MPs. Is that a recognition that maybe we need to be perhaps
:47:30. > :47:35.giving more prominence to English politicians within England because
:47:35. > :47:39.of what has happened with devolution? It is only fair that
:47:39. > :47:44.include politicians should decide on English laws, Welsh politicians
:47:44. > :47:50.deciding Welsh laws, perfectly reasonable and logical. I cannot
:47:50. > :47:55.understand why that is this mental block when you go to London and you
:47:55. > :48:04.can see power resting in one place. That is no longer acceptable all
:48:04. > :48:08.stop but how do we go about it? but how do we go about it? The West
:48:08. > :48:12.Lothian question seems to be focusing many people's minds.
:48:12. > :48:22.Whatever happens in Scotland will have an impact on the future shape
:48:22. > :48:22.
:48:22. > :48:28.of the UK. I hope Scotland will fall no to separatism, for Scotland and
:48:28. > :48:32.the United Kingdom. You cannot have two types of MPs, they should have
:48:32. > :48:37.exactly the same powers, so you need an English Parliament. We have in
:48:37. > :48:44.England which is anomalous within a United Kingdom context which needs
:48:44. > :48:48.to be put right. So what could happen? Legislation to create and
:48:48. > :48:58.includes Parliament, with similar powers to Wales, Scotland and
:48:58. > :49:00.
:49:00. > :49:04.Northern Ireland. The do not have vastly different powers. We could
:49:04. > :49:10.have modified powers to clarify the Welsh position. It would be very
:49:10. > :49:14.simple to have an endless Parliament dealing with English issues. They
:49:14. > :49:18.are not all the same, Scotland and Northern Ireland have borrowing
:49:18. > :49:25.powers, the Welsh Government does not. The Welsh Government needs
:49:25. > :49:28.that. A key military council has more boring powers -- community
:49:28. > :49:37.Council has more borrowing powers. That can help create more
:49:37. > :49:44.employment. I have almost got boring on that subject, and that would help
:49:44. > :49:48.inflate the economy, something that needs a change of Treasury rules.
:49:48. > :49:53.All they have to do is make changes to the Welsh Assembly government to
:49:53. > :50:00.have the same powers, which would solve the problems. No legislation,
:50:00. > :50:06.just a Treasury letter. And the final work on Scotland. Mike Hedges
:50:06. > :50:10.wants Scotland to remain part of the UK, you do not, how likely is that?
:50:10. > :50:15.I will spend my holiday next year in Scotland campaigning for Scotland to
:50:15. > :50:19.have its own independent government, and I look forward to that day, and
:50:19. > :50:23.the day when Wales follows suit. shall gauge the effect of your
:50:23. > :50:26.holiday when the referendum comes next September. Thank you for the
:50:26. > :50:29.time being. This week, BBC Cymru Wales is
:50:29. > :50:33.focusing on the economy with a series of special programmes and
:50:33. > :50:36.features asking What Is Wales Worth? We set the ball rolling at the start
:50:36. > :50:38.of today's programme and we are continuing with an economic theme,
:50:38. > :50:46.ethical shopping. A high street issue that goes beyond Wales and the
:50:46. > :50:50.The recent deaths of more than 1000 people at a clothing factory in
:50:50. > :50:53.Bangladesh has raised concerns over the terms and conditions faced by
:50:53. > :50:59.clothing workers in Southeast Asia and the Far East, prompting a debate
:50:59. > :51:02.over how and where called are made. That debate has been taking place
:51:02. > :51:08.within the Bangladeshi community in Wales, the backbone of the
:51:08. > :51:18.restaurant industry, and the feeling that consumers need to shop with a
:51:18. > :51:27.conscience. People are very poor and very hard-working. And there are
:51:27. > :51:35.normally low wages and they do not even earn more than 150 -- won more
:51:35. > :51:39.than �1 50 per day. And I believe there should be a minimum wage.
:51:39. > :51:46.number of high street retailers have backed plans to improve safety at
:51:46. > :51:51.Bangladeshi clothing factories. Safety was said to be at the heart
:51:51. > :51:55.of responsible retailing with ethical trading programmes ensuring
:51:55. > :52:00.tough safety standards were built built-in with suppliers to drive up
:52:00. > :52:03.standards for health and safety. And that these standards routinely go
:52:03. > :52:07.far beyond the legal requirements of the countries in which they
:52:08. > :52:16.operate. The UK Government is donating �80 million to train
:52:16. > :52:25.Bangladesh guess she garment workers -- Bangladeshi Garment workers.
:52:25. > :52:29.Wales, being the world's first beer trade nation, there is a commitment
:52:29. > :52:33.from grassroots to ensure sustainability for supply and the
:52:33. > :52:37.farmers, the small farmers growing the products we rely on everyday,
:52:37. > :52:41.and being treated fairly with a minimum wage and so on. But the
:52:41. > :52:46.result was more a government can do. We have a sustainable
:52:46. > :52:50.development Bill in process, and the finance minister is keen to ensure
:52:50. > :52:56.that everything spent in Wales is spent sustainable aid. And there is
:52:56. > :52:59.a feeling that shoppers do have some power. It is a shame it took for
:52:59. > :53:03.people to lose their lives for us to consider where clothes are coming
:53:03. > :53:09.from. We are starting to see campaign is going into shops and
:53:09. > :53:13.asking, which is where it starts. We sometimes do not realise how much
:53:13. > :53:17.power we have. And that power does not need to end there. Many poor
:53:17. > :53:25.people are making these calls. And the people who are buying these,
:53:25. > :53:31.they should realise where it is from, or how it has come. Do you
:53:31. > :53:37.think they should refuse to buy some of these garments? Well, of course,
:53:37. > :53:47.they should refuse to buy some of these. But something like happened
:53:47. > :53:49.in Bangladesh happens again. Mike Hedges, I think that the
:53:50. > :53:56.tragedy in Bangladesh makes everyone think about where their garments are
:53:56. > :54:01.coming from. I have gone through, I hesitate to use the word wardrobe,
:54:01. > :54:05.but lots of them from overseas, China, other places. This has
:54:05. > :54:14.concentrated the minds and maybe put the responsibility to find out we're
:54:14. > :54:17.garments are made? It certainly does. My constitution -- my
:54:17. > :54:22.constituency has lots of garment workers, some of which has moved
:54:22. > :54:28.overseas. I understand people putting very small amounts of money
:54:28. > :54:32.left in the pocket to buy garments for their children as well. I can
:54:32. > :54:40.see why they are doing that and, if they did not do that, their children
:54:40. > :54:46.would be a lot worse. This tragedy, though it has focused some big
:54:46. > :54:50.companies, and some paying compensation, some signing up to an
:54:50. > :54:57.accord that they will work to improve safety in these textile
:54:57. > :55:03.factories. But it takes something huge, at huge loss of life, before
:55:03. > :55:08.action is taken. Yes, what happened was tragic and a very sad
:55:08. > :55:13.occurrence, and I'm sure everyone around the world sat up and took
:55:13. > :55:17.notice. We do not have many designer shops in Wales. What I find ironic
:55:17. > :55:25.is we have poor Welsh people purchasing cheap clothing that is
:55:25. > :55:31.made by poor Bangladeshi people. That is the ironic twist in this
:55:31. > :55:36.story. Personally, we buy fair trade coffee, bananas, chocolate, and
:55:36. > :55:40.there are such a thing as fair trade clothing, and Wales are supposed to
:55:40. > :55:44.be a fair trade nation, and we should concentrate minds and ensure
:55:44. > :55:50.we become a fair trade clothing nation. A sense that these products
:55:50. > :55:53.come at a premium, costing more? Personally, I would rather pay extra
:55:53. > :55:59.in the hope that the worker manufacturing the garments gets a
:55:59. > :56:03.decent wage. If we stopped buying these cheap clothes, that would do
:56:03. > :56:10.no good for the Bangladeshi economy, because those people would be out of
:56:10. > :56:14.work. In Bangladesh and other places, we need building regulations
:56:14. > :56:19.and a whole other range, which the Tories described as red tape, but
:56:19. > :56:26.which are rules to keep people safe. Minimum wages, a whole range
:56:26. > :56:29.of things, once I personally believe and that will have an effect. It
:56:29. > :56:36.could put 50p on the Taoiseach, but have a huge effect on the people
:56:36. > :56:43.making it. -- on the garment. Thank you. Time now for a quick look back
:56:43. > :56:47.at some of the political stories of the week in 60 seconds.
:56:47. > :56:52.Carolyn Jones said Wales was making progress with improvements in areas
:56:52. > :56:55.like the economy, jobs, education and housing as he published the
:56:55. > :56:59.annual review. Opposition said without measurable targets the
:56:59. > :57:02.programme for government was meaningless all stop Welsh
:57:02. > :57:07.Conservatives set out plans to reimburse taxpayers the money the
:57:07. > :57:10.Welsh Government paid for Cardiff airport and that growth in
:57:10. > :57:14.passengers and routes could result in it being sold back to the private
:57:14. > :57:19.sector. The troubled airport was bought in March and that it now has
:57:19. > :57:24.the right structure to move forward. Criticism of plans to cut the legal
:57:24. > :57:29.aid budget. The prime ministers said there was a consultation and
:57:29. > :57:35.response is considered, but there would have to be cuts. And the story
:57:35. > :57:38.we featured last week, a deal on tackling senior council officials
:57:38. > :57:45.pay and opposition parties. Plaid Cymru said council chief executives
:57:45. > :57:48.wages would now be set by a read minute Asian panel.
:57:48. > :57:53.-- would now be looked at by our panel.
:57:53. > :57:57.Both of you gentlemen have dealt with council chief executives.
:57:57. > :58:05.Lindsay Whittle, we discussed at last week. Your party claims victory
:58:05. > :58:09.on this. Quite rightly so. Well done to them. It is a shame that the
:58:09. > :58:15.Welsh Government had to be dragged kicking and screaming into that
:58:15. > :58:21.Vickery, but it is one we will not forget. What happened was a public
:58:21. > :58:31.disgrace. It would never have happened when I was leader at
:58:31. > :58:33.
:58:33. > :58:39.carefully. And I do see that. Hedges, you were talking about that
:58:39. > :58:46.subject, and a lot happening in seven days. And it is not just one
:58:46. > :58:53.council, and your party can be involved. It is a local government
:58:53. > :59:00.problem. We used to have this national agreement, and it has been
:59:00. > :59:08.ratcheted up, and what we need is to get down to a situation where there
:59:08. > :59:14.is everyone paid at a rate which is acceptable. I pleaded down more as
:59:14. > :59:24.my Vickery, because I have been arguing this for a long time. -- the
:59:24. > :59:26.
:59:26. > :59:30.I see this more as my victory. there been a change of dynamic?
:59:30. > :59:33.Maybe defeating the government is going to far? But the government
:59:33. > :59:42.changing their mind because of pressure from opposition parties.
:59:42. > :59:47.Should the government take that in mind going ahead? If the opposition
:59:47. > :59:50.parties get together, it can bring the Assembly to a grinding halt. I
:59:50. > :59:57.do not think Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats would want that to
:59:57. > :00:02.happen. Not just a grinding halt, change of policy? This is one real
:00:02. > :00:06.occasion when the parties can get together, but we will not always get
:00:06. > :00:12.together, because we fundamentally disagree with the Conservative Party
:00:12. > :00:16.issues. This is a rear occasion. This was right decision that you