:01:12. > :01:22.decide whether Welsh parents can smack their children: the Assembly,
:01:22. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :36:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds
:36:40. > :36:46.the Supreme Court or parents UK and introduce a ban on smacking
:36:46. > :36:49.children? And we will hear from the Shadow welfare secretary -- Shadow
:36:49. > :36:55.Welsh Secretary as George Osborne prepares to unveil the UK
:36:55. > :37:00.Government's latest spending plans. Bethan Jenkins and Byron Davies join
:37:00. > :37:05.me throughout the programme. The spending review, the decision is
:37:05. > :37:13.made in Westminster but it will have a big impact in Wales, wouldn't it?
:37:13. > :37:18.We have made our case out quite clearly to the Wales Office, who I
:37:18. > :37:24.believe will be making the case to the Chancellor. How concerned are
:37:24. > :37:28.you about what we are about to hear from the spending review? Our party
:37:28. > :37:33.are very concerned because we have had huge cutbacks and the Labour
:37:33. > :37:38.Government here is saying that they will protect the people of Wales. If
:37:38. > :37:44.more budgets are cut that will affect citizens of Wales badly and I
:37:44. > :37:49.would urge the UK parties to think again. Those are the views here in
:37:49. > :37:54.the studio. Let's get the views of the Shadow Welsh Secretary, Owen
:37:54. > :37:58.Smith, who joins us from Millbank. We've heard a lot of talk over the
:37:58. > :38:03.last few weeks from Labour that there appears to be a change in the
:38:03. > :38:09.mood in terms of handling the economy. What would you say is the
:38:09. > :38:14.approach to austerity from Labour now? We know that we are going to
:38:14. > :38:17.see further cuts coming from the Tory government in Westminster next
:38:18. > :38:23.week when the spending review is announced. The only reason the
:38:23. > :38:28.Tories are having this spending review is because the scale of their
:38:28. > :38:36.failure is becoming so apparent. We know that we will inherit it in 2015
:38:36. > :38:42.if we win and the deficit will be �96 billion, higher by 78 billion
:38:42. > :38:51.than they told us by three years ago that they anticipated by 2015.
:38:51. > :38:56.Therefore any prospect of government, any opposition, needs to
:38:56. > :39:01.recognise that and have a hard-headed view of what we need to
:39:01. > :39:04.do to deal with it. We cannot commit right now to reversing the cuts that
:39:04. > :39:11.we anticipate seeing from George Osborne on Wednesday when he speaks
:39:11. > :39:14.to the country, but we would come to government with a radically
:39:14. > :39:20.different set of values and priorities and would take radically
:39:20. > :39:30.different decisions about how we would reduce that deficit. It would
:39:30. > :39:33.
:39:33. > :39:38.mean, I think, that I as a Welsh Secretary would be... It was only
:39:38. > :39:44.last week that we sought Wales lost out by 7% on its budget despite the
:39:44. > :39:49.fact that the Tories are saying Wales hasn't lost out. I feel we
:39:49. > :39:53.will lose out further still this week. Let me ask you about members
:39:53. > :40:00.of your own party who do not agree that signing up to this austerity
:40:00. > :40:07.programme is the way forward. It doesn't seem as though Carwyn Jones,
:40:07. > :40:13.the Welsh Labour Leader, has signed up to this and has said that
:40:13. > :40:20.austerity is failing. Why would you sign up to it now? We know that the
:40:20. > :40:25.government has cut too far and too fast over the last few years. People
:40:25. > :40:29.were frightened that our economy was going to tank and therefore they
:40:29. > :40:32.stopped spending. This misses stopped spending, we have the
:40:32. > :40:41.largest amount of money sitting in the business bank account in the
:40:41. > :40:44.history of Britain so we know that slashing the budgets doesn't work,
:40:44. > :40:49.but Labour as a prospective government must be honest. It would
:40:49. > :40:54.be great if I could say we would reverse these cuts tomorrow, but the
:40:54. > :41:00.fact that the Tories have failed to get any growth in our economy... We
:41:00. > :41:04.have got billions of pounds fewer tax receipts in Britain than we
:41:04. > :41:08.would have had had we've seen some growth in the economy. It has been
:41:08. > :41:14.disastrous over the last couple of years, it is why they are borrowing
:41:14. > :41:17.so much more than they anticipated and why we have a deficit that is
:41:17. > :41:23.massively greater than we anticipated. It would be dishonest
:41:23. > :41:27.of us to say we would reverse these cuts. We must be real with people.
:41:27. > :41:37.We would spell out what our arguments are. We would not have a
:41:37. > :41:39.
:41:39. > :41:43.millionairess' tax cut -- millionaire's tax cut. It is wrong,
:41:43. > :41:49.it is immoral, and we would be taxing bankers bonuses in the way we
:41:49. > :41:52.did last year. We would also take tough decisions. We would recognise
:41:52. > :41:58.that in tough times we can't continue to provide things like the
:41:58. > :42:07.winter fuel allowance for pensioners who are earning more than �40,000.
:42:07. > :42:14.Please stay with us for the moment. Byron Davies, the Chancellor today
:42:14. > :42:24.said that he had won the argument on austerity. Is that right?
:42:24. > :42:24.
:42:24. > :42:27.factors, this coalition -- the fact is, this coalition government had
:42:27. > :42:33.deficit that was unprecedented since the Second World War. We have cut it
:42:33. > :42:39.by one third already, so everyone must maintain savings, all
:42:39. > :42:44.government departments, and the Welsh government is no different. I
:42:44. > :42:51.am fully behind the Chancellor. Bethan Jenkins, we heard from the
:42:51. > :42:55.Chancellor today that the economy was recovering. If you look at
:42:55. > :42:59.unemployment, it is stagnating and has been since 2010, youth
:42:59. > :43:03.unemployment is increasing, productivity, we are falling behind
:43:03. > :43:13.other countries like Germany, France and the United States. Are we
:43:13. > :43:16.getting out of this? It is not clear at all. You only have to look at the
:43:16. > :43:23.UK parties, which know they are very similar to each other. Ed Balls said
:43:23. > :43:28.he would carry on the Tory cuts. The Labour Party would carry on with the
:43:28. > :43:33.academies. It is totally hypocritical for Owen Smith to say
:43:33. > :43:37.that he would be reasonable and realistic when they currently may as
:43:37. > :43:47.well be the Tory party. You may as well be the Tory party according to
:43:47. > :43:51.
:43:51. > :43:55.Bethan Jenkins. There is a reality about the nature of the deficit that
:43:55. > :44:01.the government anticipated getting debt down. Debt as a proportion of
:44:01. > :44:06.GDP is going to be 30% greater when the Tories leave office in 2015 than
:44:06. > :44:11.when they came to office in 2010. That is the absolute heart truth,
:44:11. > :44:18.and that is the measure of their failure. We need to take tough
:44:18. > :44:23.decisions. It is the case that the deficit since 2011 has stagnated and
:44:23. > :44:27.debt has been increasing. Nobody expected it to take this long, but
:44:27. > :44:31.you have to remember we have created 1 million jobs in the private
:44:31. > :44:38.sector, so it is not quite as grim and I believe the economy is turning
:44:38. > :44:44.a corner. I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land. You have the
:44:44. > :44:48.bedroom tax, you have people suffering. People are on benefits,
:44:48. > :44:52.they can't find work. We need to step back and look at the political
:44:52. > :44:58.priorities and it is only fair to talk about conforming to this UK
:44:58. > :45:03.Government agenda but we should talk about people putting money in
:45:03. > :45:07.offshore bank accounts like Nigel Farage, we should be looking at
:45:07. > :45:11.putting money into sustainable businesses in Wales as opposed to
:45:11. > :45:15.punishing those who are poor in society. We always have the analysis
:45:15. > :45:21.of trying to help the rich rather than the poor. That is why I'm in
:45:21. > :45:30.politics, at others are in it for different reasons. Argue in it for
:45:30. > :45:34.the rich? I don't think so. -- are you in it for the rich? There are
:45:34. > :45:40.few millionaires amongst us, we are trying to help the people of Wales
:45:40. > :45:45.and come from very humble backgrounds. There was a very
:45:45. > :45:50.successful strategy in 1997 in sticking to the outgoing
:45:50. > :45:55.Conservative government's spending plans. Are you going to try and
:45:55. > :46:01.stick to that 1997 strategy which you delivered so successfully?
:46:01. > :46:05.reality in 97 was we were anticipating rising budgets, rising
:46:05. > :46:12.departmental spending. We were not in the desperate economic straits we
:46:12. > :46:19.are currently in. Sticking to similar plans right now, or saying
:46:19. > :46:28.more accurately that we can't commit after the next election to increases
:46:28. > :46:34.day-to-day spending, would be wrong. We will have to reduce department
:46:34. > :46:39.budgets. We will still be in difficulty until we get our economy
:46:39. > :46:43.growing, but we have said that we would have different priorities. We
:46:43. > :46:50.would borrow more to invest in infrastructure, the key ways to get
:46:50. > :46:55.our economy moving. We would learn, from example, from Wales where the
:46:55. > :46:59.Welsh Labour government has implemented a work programme that is
:46:59. > :47:02.far more effective than that being in fermented by the Tories in
:47:02. > :47:07.Westminster, so there are good -- implemented by the Tories in
:47:07. > :47:16.Westminster. We will do it the way the Tory government should have done
:47:16. > :47:23.it three years ago. Ultimately, it is too little, too late. Thank you
:47:23. > :47:27.very much, Owen Smith, for joining us from Millbank.
:47:27. > :47:31.Campaigners say that Assembly Members should the the first -- make
:47:31. > :47:35.Wales in the first part of the UK to ban the smacking of children, even
:47:35. > :47:39.if they have to face a challenge in the Supreme Court. A leading charity
:47:39. > :47:43.said a ban would be hugely significant for child protection,
:47:43. > :47:46.but there are warnings from Westminster that the legal challenge
:47:46. > :47:56.would be almost inevitable. Over the years, although Assembly
:47:56. > :48:02.Members have voted to ban smacking, the votes have never been binding.
:48:02. > :48:10.It has been more than a decade since it was first discussed, but back
:48:10. > :48:13.then Assembly Members lacked the power to introduce a ban. Now a bill
:48:13. > :48:18.with child protection at its heart is making its way through the
:48:18. > :48:24.Assembly. Campaigners say it is a golden opportunity to outlaw
:48:24. > :48:31.offences against children. We will fulfil our commitment to children's
:48:31. > :48:37.rights and it will make children safer, it will protect them where
:48:37. > :48:45.there are concerns, it will very much help the government help
:48:45. > :48:48.families. Political parties will face demands to ban smacking in the
:48:48. > :48:57.next Parliamentary elections in 2016, but there is every reason to
:48:57. > :49:04.press ahead now. The bill is try to reduce the legal defence for
:49:04. > :49:08.reasonable chastisement. It is not hard to find politicians in
:49:08. > :49:14.Westminster who believe a ban would be straying into the arena of
:49:14. > :49:24.criminal Justice, which is not evolved. These issues about what is
:49:24. > :49:26.
:49:26. > :49:29.devolved and what is not, we believe it is outside their dominion. I
:49:29. > :49:38.think it would be a matter for the Secretary of State and Attorney
:49:38. > :49:45.General. Amendments will be tabled to back a ban to an upcoming bill,
:49:45. > :49:49.even if a Supreme Court challenge results. It will be contested by
:49:49. > :49:53.Westminster and will probably end up in court, but people want
:49:53. > :49:57.politicians to start making decisions, not worrying about
:49:57. > :50:01.whether this is going to be challenged or not. If you don't have
:50:01. > :50:06.the courage of your convictions you can't carry them forward and that is
:50:06. > :50:12.what I fully intend to do. If people don't like it, too bad. I am doing
:50:12. > :50:17.it for the protection of children, it is as simple as that. Welsh
:50:17. > :50:19.government's reluctance to pursue a ban now is causing some tension with
:50:19. > :50:25.Labour backbenchers in Cardiff Bay, some of whom have been campaigning
:50:25. > :50:30.for this for years. I can remember when my children were little, I felt
:50:30. > :50:35.like hitting them at times and I felt really stressed out. I felt
:50:35. > :50:41.very stressed out and I did think of hitting them. As it happened, I
:50:41. > :50:46.didn't, but I'll would have hoped that I would have known it wasn't
:50:46. > :50:53.acceptable and I think it would be a great help to parents to know that
:50:53. > :50:59.it is not acceptable in any form. think it is an admission of failure.
:50:59. > :51:03.I have always been against hitting children and I don't think it is
:51:03. > :51:07.appropriate to have a ban on smacking, I don't think it is
:51:08. > :51:13.appropriate on that issue. I think the responsibility lies with
:51:13. > :51:23.Westminster, but I think it should go before the Supreme Court before
:51:23. > :51:31.
:51:31. > :51:35.it can go ahead. The Welsh ending that report by Adrian Brown.
:51:35. > :51:43.Bethan Jenkins, you are a member of the Assembly's Children and Young
:51:43. > :51:51.People Committee. Is that it over? Ewe I don't think so, and as you can
:51:51. > :51:57.hear from my colleague, we have seen Labour AMs committed to ending the
:51:57. > :52:01.ban. To me, the worst smacking undermines the fact that this is
:52:01. > :52:08.violence against children. Would you say to a man, it's OK to beat a
:52:08. > :52:15.wife, just give her a little smack? He would be arrested and charged.
:52:15. > :52:23.Until we have legislation in hand then we will be in this situation in
:52:23. > :52:25.ten years' time. Byron Davies, you are former policeman, but there are
:52:25. > :52:35.surely practicalities involved here in Hackney Wick in how they would
:52:35. > :52:40.
:52:40. > :52:47.enforce a ban on smacking. -- banning smacking. There are plenty
:52:47. > :52:53.of offences to take people to court and arrest people, so I don't buy
:52:53. > :52:57.into the value of the ban. I personally think it should be down
:52:57. > :53:02.to the individual parents and left that way. It is not for government
:53:02. > :53:07.to interfere with the way families are run. That is a point to pick up
:53:07. > :53:14.on. There is a world of difference between beating a child and smacking
:53:14. > :53:19.a child, is there not? Ewe that is an issue of perception, -- That is
:53:19. > :53:28.an issue of perception, because if you continue to smack a child, what
:53:28. > :53:33.is the line of acceptability of doing that? To go back to the
:53:33. > :53:37.politics of the issue, I think the Welsh government, having had many
:53:37. > :53:42.people stand on a political platform and say they would put a ban in
:53:42. > :53:49.place or campaign for it, is undermining what the Minister is
:53:49. > :53:52.doing. This is the ideal time to have an amendment instead of
:53:52. > :53:59.delaying it and delaying it and delaying it until the next Assembly
:53:59. > :54:02.and the next election. We heard your colleague saying there that this for
:54:02. > :54:07.him straight into criminal Justice, which is not evolved and is a matter
:54:08. > :54:17.for Westminster. The you agree? agree. There is an important point
:54:18. > :54:17.
:54:18. > :54:24.raised there. Certainly I think there will undoubtedly be that
:54:24. > :54:31.issue. If politics think that parents are inclined to beat their
:54:31. > :54:39.children, a piece of legislation. At -- a piece of legislation. That,
:54:39. > :54:44.they are mistaken. Shouldn't we be focused on trying to protect those
:54:44. > :54:47.children rather than concentrating on the smacking issue? If you put
:54:47. > :54:52.those political and educational messages out there in line with
:54:52. > :54:56.legislation then I think we can change those perceptions. I had a
:54:56. > :55:03.lively debate before I came here about this very issue mirroring a
:55:03. > :55:06.lot about what Byron Davies has said, but I think we need to
:55:06. > :55:10.implement strategic thinking on this. Legislation always helps to
:55:10. > :55:15.tell people that this action is not acceptable. Thank you to both of
:55:15. > :55:25.you. Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of
:55:25. > :55:27.
:55:27. > :55:32.The UK Transport minister told the Welsh affairs select committee that
:55:32. > :55:38.future plans for the bridges would have to reflect the interests of
:55:38. > :55:45.England as well as Wales. A decision has yet to be made on ownership
:55:45. > :55:55.ought polls. The former Plaid Cymru leader says he is standing down with
:55:55. > :55:58.immediate effect. He requested a snap election in August.
:55:58. > :56:08.The UK Government says it will not meet its own deadline to respond to
:56:08. > :56:17.a report saying that ministers should be given... The report on the
:56:17. > :56:27.subcommission won't be given until the end of spring. The Vale of
:56:27. > :56:29.
:56:29. > :56:33.Glamorgan MP Alan Cairns has denied the club FA membership.
:56:33. > :56:38.Let's pick up on that delayed response from the UK Government to
:56:38. > :56:44.the subcommission, firstly with Byron Davies. We've hearing a lot of
:56:44. > :56:51.discussion about how we are going to reach agreement, whether we can
:56:51. > :56:54.reach consensus on this. Why is there a delayed response? I think it
:56:54. > :56:59.is generally getting full consideration. Nothing happened
:56:59. > :57:06.under the last Labour government, the new government is taking its
:57:06. > :57:14.time over it and in the fullness of time we will have a response.
:57:14. > :57:17.think they would probably say... set up the subcommission quite soon
:57:17. > :57:25.after getting into government. sure Bethan Jenkins has something to
:57:25. > :57:29.say about that. We have been waiting long enough. Look at the powers in
:57:29. > :57:34.Scotland compared to Wales, the sooner the better. We need
:57:34. > :57:40.confirmation of our own powers as we can get ahead, for example, with the
:57:40. > :57:44.smacking ban. Is this part of the ongoing discussion about the
:57:44. > :57:51.changing constitution, what is going on in Scotland and, of course, the
:57:51. > :57:55.English question? We need to take a wider approach. If Scotland has
:57:55. > :57:59.independence next year the UK will change for ever and I think people
:57:59. > :58:02.are in denial of that fact, particularly in the Welsh
:58:02. > :58:10.government, so we need to have a wider conversation about powers in
:58:10. > :58:15.the United team them. -- United Kingdom. Is that what you would like
:58:15. > :58:24.to see, a wider discussion rather than a piecemeal debate? I actually
:58:24. > :58:28.agree with Bethan Jenkins, I would welcome a debate on the whole issue.
:58:28. > :58:36.Another issue spoken about there was the tolls, which was something you
:58:36. > :58:43.are very interested in. The Severn crossings are very important, the
:58:43. > :58:47.economy comes through them, trade transport finds it very difficult to
:58:47. > :58:51.profit because they need to pay �18 for each lorry going over the
:58:51. > :59:00.bridges, so we will never get rid of that hauls, I'm sure of that because
:59:00. > :59:06.the bridge -- the tolls because the bridges need to be maintained.
:59:06. > :59:11.have this story about S4C and the UK Government cutting funding for it
:59:11. > :59:16.completely. I am very worried and I am hoping to table an urgent
:59:16. > :59:20.question to the First Minister this week in the National Assembly. I