:00:37. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the
:00:45. > :00:48.rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference
:00:48. > :00:52.this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics
:00:52. > :00:56.poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a
:00:56. > :01:00.good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?
:01:00. > :01:02.Back in Westminster, they're partying like it's 2006, as Damian
:01:03. > :01:09.McBride's memoirs re-ignite the Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell
:01:09. > :01:13.will tell us why he is sickened by the former Brown spin doctor.
:01:13. > :01:16.And speaking of political infighting, Conservative Party
:01:16. > :01:17.Chairman Grant Shapps will give his response to the rampant Tory-bashing
:01:17. > :01:24.Later in the programme. As Labour at the Lib Dem Conference
:01:24. > :01:27.Later in the programme. As Labour gather in Brighton, we hear from
:01:27. > :01:28.shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith on public services and special
:01:28. > :01:34.advisers. business. In London, Labour commands
:01:34. > :01:38.over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused
:01:38. > :01:48.of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the
:01:48. > :01:51.brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan
:01:51. > :01:54.Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians
:01:54. > :01:57.throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.
:01:57. > :02:03.Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.
:02:03. > :02:05.Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and
:02:05. > :02:09.spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,
:02:09. > :02:13.according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about
:02:13. > :02:21.this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a
:02:21. > :02:24.tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office
:02:24. > :02:30.three years ago. We are trying to be It is about a party that lost office
:02:30. > :02:35.a one term opposition. That is tough. I believe it is a fight that
:02:35. > :02:42.we can win and I am up for that fight. The stakes are so high for
:02:42. > :02:46.young people who want a job, for people whose living standards are
:02:46. > :02:53.being squeezed. For people who think that this is not good enough for
:02:53. > :02:56.Britain. So what do key Labour Party activists - its councillors - think
:02:56. > :03:01.about the direction Mr Miliband is taking their party? Adam Fleming is
:03:01. > :03:08.in Brighton at the Party Conference with all the details of our latest
:03:08. > :03:11.exclusive Sunday Politics survey. Labour have unwrapped their
:03:11. > :03:18.conference set. Let us unwrap them. Labour have unwrapped their
:03:18. > :03:22.With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors
:03:22. > :03:27.across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as
:03:27. > :03:33.Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the
:03:33. > :03:37.week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great
:03:37. > :03:41.week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of
:03:41. > :03:47.councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as
:03:47. > :03:51.leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if
:03:51. > :03:59.someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of
:03:59. > :04:02.Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for
:04:02. > :04:12.Ed Miliband as we run-up to general three years! Now it is crunch time.
:04:12. > :04:17.The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked by roughly one third of the party as
:04:17. > :04:24.well. Ed Balls is not a pop your man. He says things and he speaks
:04:24. > :04:31.his mind. -- not a popular man. Sometimes he is not the most
:04:31. > :04:37.diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not seem to be that bothered about our
:04:37. > :04:40.survey. Over at a conference centre the exhibitors were starting up.
:04:40. > :04:46.When it comes to relations with trade unions, the majority of Labour
:04:46. > :04:51.councillors thought things were absolutely fine. Just 9% thought
:04:51. > :04:57.things with the unions were a little bit too close. Tricky because Ed
:04:57. > :05:01.Miliband want to loosen the link. The shadow environment secretary
:05:01. > :05:07.arrived in Brighton ride bicycle from London to raise money for
:05:07. > :05:11.charity. When we as Labour councillors what they would do if
:05:11. > :05:17.the next election results in a hung parliament, just over half said they
:05:17. > :05:21.would tell the lid Dems to get on their bikes. We would never say no
:05:21. > :05:25.to going into coalition. It gives us the chance to be in government and
:05:25. > :05:30.prepare some of the damage of the last three years. So are you going
:05:30. > :05:35.to start being nice about the Lib Dems? I always treat them with
:05:36. > :05:42.courtesy. And the parties admitted that perhaps they had opened the
:05:42. > :05:47.door to too many immigrants. It in our survey Labour councillors of
:05:47. > :05:52.warming the felt that immigration had been positive for the UK.
:05:52. > :06:01.We're now joined by the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel
:06:01. > :06:06.Reeves. Good morning. Let us start with Ed Miliband. Is it true that
:06:06. > :06:13.the team insisted that he be called the leader? I just call him Ed and I
:06:13. > :06:22.think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet do. Do you welcome working for a
:06:22. > :06:29.leader that says he is winning back socialism? We are a democratic
:06:29. > :06:31.socialist party. We make no apologies for that. The most
:06:31. > :06:35.important thing is that we have the apologies for that. The most
:06:35. > :06:38.policies that will improve people 's lives and tackle the cost of living
:06:38. > :06:43.policies that will improve people 's crisis facing so many families.
:06:43. > :06:49.Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all
:06:49. > :06:54.policies that I think the country are calling out for after three
:06:54. > :07:02.years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages
:07:02. > :07:05.for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime
:07:05. > :07:11.Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to
:07:11. > :07:17.risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is
:07:17. > :07:21.in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party
:07:21. > :07:26.according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that
:07:26. > :07:32.is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged
:07:32. > :07:36.few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are
:07:36. > :07:40.policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is
:07:40. > :07:49.about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your
:07:49. > :07:53.run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour
:07:53. > :07:59.councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he
:07:59. > :08:03.cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?
:08:03. > :08:06.Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the
:08:06. > :08:12.Well you could say that two thirds right leader. But these are Labour
:08:13. > :08:19.councillors. The overall majority of Labour councillors think that he is
:08:19. > :08:23.doing a good job. What matters is the results on election day. Two
:08:23. > :08:29.doing a good job. What matters is thirds of councillors think that he
:08:29. > :08:33.is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this
:08:33. > :08:35.week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well
:08:35. > :08:39.week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will
:08:39. > :08:45.also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding
:08:45. > :08:49.apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are
:08:49. > :08:54.struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.
:08:54. > :09:03.Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the
:09:03. > :09:06.question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%
:09:06. > :09:11.see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%
:09:11. > :09:16.you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in
:09:16. > :09:19.those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot
:09:19. > :09:23.those polls. It is hard being leader demonstrate how you would be Prime
:09:23. > :09:30.Minister. By nature you are in opposition. But he has taken on
:09:30. > :09:37.Rupert Murdoch and the press barons. That is strong leadership, standing
:09:37. > :09:42.up to the vast majority. If you look at his reforms to our relationship
:09:42. > :09:49.with the trade unions, strengthening ties with individual members. I
:09:49. > :09:56.think that he is a strong leader making the right decisions. If that
:09:56. > :10:01.is the case, why has the Labour lead gone from 14 points one year ago to
:10:01. > :10:08.at most four points now. What went wrong? Well we are six or eight
:10:08. > :10:10.points ahead in the polls today. We are six or eight points ahead in the
:10:10. > :10:13.polls today. We're still consistently ahead. It looks as if
:10:13. > :10:16.we would get an overall majority if consistently ahead. It looks as if
:10:16. > :10:22.there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince
:10:22. > :10:27.more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be
:10:27. > :10:32.a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the
:10:32. > :10:39.next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The
:10:39. > :10:42.big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary
:10:42. > :10:48.school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in
:10:48. > :10:53.government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --
:10:53. > :10:56.after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring
:10:56. > :11:01.fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools
:11:02. > :11:07.within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they
:11:07. > :11:14.can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a
:11:14. > :11:17.policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under
:11:17. > :11:21.policy that does not involve the last Labour government it will
:11:21. > :11:25.be about ring fencing money because we think that this is a priority.
:11:26. > :11:31.This is something that the schools should do. You cannot ring fenced
:11:31. > :11:36.money you do not have. You saying you could provide wraparound
:11:36. > :11:39.childcare for every family schoolchild from eight o'clock in
:11:39. > :11:44.the morning until six o'clock at night and it will not cost any more
:11:44. > :11:50.money? Well we did ring fence that money in the last Labour government.
:11:50. > :11:56.That money is gone! It has not gone. It is about priorities and we are
:11:56. > :12:03.saying that it should be a priority to provide that wraparound care. So
:12:03. > :12:08.where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If we
:12:08. > :12:12.look at some of the things that this government is doing, building free
:12:12. > :12:20.schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital
:12:20. > :12:25.spending. We are ring fencing that many. Again, it is different
:12:25. > :12:29.priorities. We had the ring fence when we were in government. It would
:12:29. > :12:32.be reintroduced so that schools had to offer that wraparound care. Of
:12:32. > :12:37.course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of
:12:37. > :12:40.fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important
:12:40. > :12:45.fee for their breakfast clubs and thing is that provision is there for
:12:45. > :12:52.parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of
:12:52. > :12:56.the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable
:12:56. > :13:01.that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable
:13:01. > :13:13.up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am
:13:13. > :13:19.asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.
:13:19. > :13:26.I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know
:13:26. > :13:32.that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.
:13:32. > :13:38.He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is
:13:38. > :13:43.He has led by example. There is not no plotting against Ed Balls going
:13:43. > :13:51.on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues
:13:51. > :13:56.should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made
:13:56. > :14:01.it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a
:14:01. > :14:10.hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?
:14:10. > :14:14.That is very generous of Nick Clegg to say that. With his poll ratings
:14:14. > :14:20.of 9%. I think it is up to the to say that. With his poll ratings
:14:20. > :14:24.general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are
:14:24. > :14:31.campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are
:14:31. > :14:40.you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to
:14:40. > :14:45.serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what
:14:45. > :14:50.we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what
:14:50. > :14:58.has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the
:14:58. > :15:03.argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in
:15:03. > :15:08.terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to
:15:09. > :15:14.benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That
:15:14. > :15:24.is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The
:15:24. > :15:28.recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The
:15:28. > :15:31.interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue
:15:31. > :15:35.now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards
:15:35. > :15:42.which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame
:15:42. > :15:45.Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great
:15:45. > :15:49.scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce
:15:49. > :15:53.big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the
:15:53. > :15:57.economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of
:15:57. > :16:00.fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,
:16:00. > :16:03.whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the
:16:03. > :16:08.economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main
:16:09. > :16:10.job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just
:16:10. > :16:13.themes, and that makes him elucidating policies and not just
:16:13. > :16:19.incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy
:16:19. > :16:25.for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition
:16:25. > :16:28.something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes
:16:28. > :16:33.you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the
:16:33. > :16:42.conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --
:16:42. > :16:48.childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --
:16:48. > :16:57.can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it
:16:57. > :17:00.is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the
:17:00. > :17:06.artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending
:17:06. > :17:10.any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of
:17:10. > :17:14.how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to
:17:15. > :17:19.announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately
:17:19. > :17:23.say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend
:17:23. > :17:25.a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This
:17:25. > :17:33.a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax
:17:33. > :17:37.suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money
:17:37. > :17:42.one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend
:17:42. > :17:45.money on this. It is a real problem. How do you measure the state of the
:17:45. > :17:51.coalition after the Liberal Democrat conference? The Liberal Democrats
:17:51. > :17:55.were in a very strong position after their conference, Nick Clegg had
:17:55. > :17:59.faced and activists on some issues, including fracking, which they
:17:59. > :18:03.supported, which seem to be the most important part of the conference. In
:18:03. > :18:07.terms of the coalition, the Tories have had to sit and watch as Vince
:18:07. > :18:08.Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have basically criticised them and said
:18:08. > :18:12.Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have they are evil and only the Lib Dems
:18:13. > :18:16.can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of
:18:16. > :18:21.how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the
:18:21. > :18:32.Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their
:18:32. > :18:33.revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay
:18:33. > :18:37.revenge. Mister Clegg may have behind him, but he has a bigger
:18:37. > :18:41.challenge, which is called convincing the British people. There
:18:41. > :18:45.is some interesting polling they have done privately that suggests
:18:45. > :18:49.there is a market of about 25% of the electorate which is plausibly
:18:49. > :18:52.open to them, and all they have to do is target policies remorselessly
:18:52. > :18:56.at that group, rather than the broader public, in order to do well
:18:56. > :19:00.enough at the next election to hold the balance of power. That is why
:19:01. > :19:15.policies that seem weird to us, like free school meals regardless of
:19:15. > :19:17.income, may perversely make sense to them. Because it appeals to their
:19:17. > :19:18.demographic. It is a strange political world we are in, the
:19:18. > :19:21.Labour strategists think they political world we are in, the
:19:21. > :19:23.win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories
:19:23. > :19:28.have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it
:19:28. > :19:30.for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the
:19:30. > :19:34.90s into the 21st century, the party dominated, the Tories. In the
:19:34. > :19:43.policy matter delayed the Labour Party dominated. -- the Labour party
:19:43. > :19:44.dominated. We are now here but we have other parties hoping that 36%
:19:45. > :19:48.will give them a small overall have other parties hoping that 36%
:19:49. > :19:53.majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation
:19:53. > :20:01.where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly
:20:01. > :20:05.targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long
:20:06. > :20:13.way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about
:20:13. > :20:16.all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the
:20:16. > :20:20.Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that
:20:20. > :20:24.voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration
:20:24. > :20:28.policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say
:20:28. > :20:43.that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out
:20:43. > :20:49.of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister
:20:49. > :20:54.Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential
:20:54. > :21:00.election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they
:21:00. > :21:03.are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is
:21:04. > :21:08.the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have
:21:08. > :21:14.him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.
:21:14. > :21:17.Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of
:21:17. > :21:18.how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting
:21:18. > :21:23.how the yellow half of the the General Election.
:21:23. > :21:26.When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some
:21:26. > :21:33.ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --
:21:33. > :21:36.bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the
:21:36. > :21:41.Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their
:21:41. > :21:45.politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:45. > :21:46.restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:46. > :21:49.the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not
:21:49. > :21:59.increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime
:21:59. > :22:02.Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories
:22:02. > :22:06.from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,
:22:06. > :22:14.no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections
:22:14. > :22:17.in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade
:22:17. > :22:21.being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders
:22:21. > :22:27.shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David
:22:27. > :22:30.Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg
:22:30. > :22:32.says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg
:22:32. > :22:38.And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.
:22:38. > :22:46.Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,
:22:46. > :22:51.self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the
:22:51. > :22:55.Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this
:22:55. > :23:00.accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator
:23:00. > :23:05.Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a
:23:05. > :23:08.majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming
:23:08. > :23:12.the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes
:23:12. > :23:15.to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there
:23:15. > :23:20.may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in
:23:20. > :23:25.government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know
:23:25. > :23:29.the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that
:23:29. > :23:34.coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't
:23:34. > :23:38.get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the
:23:38. > :23:40.electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they
:23:40. > :23:47.would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many
:23:47. > :23:50.people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.
:23:50. > :23:54.Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had
:23:54. > :24:02.had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking
:24:02. > :24:07.the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This
:24:07. > :24:10.Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more
:24:10. > :24:15.than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left
:24:15. > :24:19.the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process
:24:19. > :24:24.of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would
:24:24. > :24:28.like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country
:24:28. > :24:31.has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make
:24:31. > :24:33.ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.
:24:33. > :24:37.ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place
:24:37. > :24:40.in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there
:24:40. > :24:45.are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.
:24:45. > :24:52.And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what
:24:53. > :24:57.ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It
:24:57. > :25:01.has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election
:25:01. > :25:08.will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a
:25:08. > :25:14.coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any
:25:14. > :25:18.party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.
:25:18. > :25:21.You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British
:25:22. > :25:28.constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated
:25:28. > :25:34.on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there
:25:34. > :25:37.was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me
:25:37. > :25:45.that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here
:25:45. > :25:50.it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided
:25:50. > :25:54.stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good
:25:54. > :26:07.for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about
:26:07. > :26:11.taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a
:26:11. > :26:18.great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative
:26:18. > :26:25.government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your
:26:25. > :26:28.party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking
:26:28. > :26:32.the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It
:26:32. > :26:35.certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the
:26:35. > :26:37.coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative
:26:37. > :26:42.Chancellor making it happen. It is have happened without a Conservative
:26:42. > :26:48.right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April
:26:48. > :26:53.will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what
:26:53. > :27:04.David Cameron told Nick Clegg during the leaders debate in 2010.
:27:04. > :27:11.What Nick Clegg is promising is a £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,
:27:11. > :27:15.stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would
:27:15. > :27:17.love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it is a
:27:17. > :27:22.love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford
:27:22. > :27:25.it. It wasn't in your manifesto. Mister Cameron said it was
:27:25. > :27:31.unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is
:27:31. > :27:34.having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition
:27:34. > :27:38.because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the best
:27:38. > :27:41.of it. And as it happens, if you want to hear a confession, I
:27:41. > :27:46.absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of
:27:46. > :27:49.tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all
:27:49. > :27:58.because of this rise in the threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm
:27:58. > :28:02.pleased it worked out. What are the most important thing is a majority
:28:02. > :28:08.Tory government would do after 2015, unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I
:28:08. > :28:11.think produce even more jobs when unemployment goes down, because we
:28:11. > :28:14.think produce even more jobs when are the most entrepreneurial place
:28:15. > :28:20.to set up a business. Are more free-market economy? We make our
:28:20. > :28:27.money because we are out global trading economy. That is why it is
:28:27. > :28:31.so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around the
:28:31. > :28:35.world. One simple example, it is crazy in my view that we have global
:28:35. > :28:37.tariffs that prevent some of the hardest other countries in the
:28:37. > :28:43.world, in developing parts of the world, from exporting to us and vice
:28:43. > :28:49.versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be more
:28:49. > :28:52.interested in progressing in. It sounds like you are talking about
:28:52. > :29:00.even more Thatcherite, market led agendas. I think that you did a huge
:29:00. > :29:03.amount to show this country that if you want to help the least well off
:29:04. > :29:08.people in society, and the least well off people in the world, around
:29:08. > :29:12.the globe, the way to do it is to trade, and I think we should have an
:29:12. > :29:16.economy which is much more open to free trade. If there is another hung
:29:16. > :29:21.parliament, and the poll suggest there might be, at the moment it is
:29:21. > :29:27.all to play for on both sides, what would your non-negotiable Red Line
:29:27. > :29:34.speak? We are still two years away from that, it is a long way away,
:29:34. > :29:39.but there is a lot we want to lay out. What we are going to be saying
:29:39. > :29:43.to this country is most people want a single party running the country,
:29:43. > :29:46.they think it is clean and clear and you don't end up with negotiation
:29:46. > :29:50.after an election. We will be setting out a very clear platform
:29:50. > :29:53.which will be for hard-working people in this country who want to
:29:53. > :29:58.work hard and get on in life. We would, I think, want to see the
:29:58. > :30:02.welfare state that we have got into, where it is no longer about helping
:30:02. > :30:06.those most in need but became a situation where you are better off
:30:06. > :30:10.not working than in worker, I think we plan to ensure that this is an
:30:10. > :30:14.incredibly fair place to go out and do a day's work and get the money at
:30:15. > :30:18.the end of the day rather than thinking there is an alternative.
:30:18. > :30:23.you have promised a referendum on UK membership of the EU in 2017, that
:30:23. > :30:30.must be your first Red Line? We are clear, we want to see a referendum,
:30:31. > :30:37.a reform European Union. So no poll... ? I should remind viewers
:30:37. > :30:44.that there is an act of Parliament, a bill going through Parliament
:30:44. > :30:49.right now, for a referendum on the EU, which comes back to the House.
:30:49. > :30:54.It is past the report stage and comes back in November and we will
:30:54. > :30:56.be discussing it. The Lib Dems, Labour, will have an opportunity to
:30:56. > :31:01.be discussing it. The Lib Dems, support what the British people
:31:01. > :31:05.want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future
:31:05. > :31:11.coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have
:31:11. > :31:17.a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or
:31:17. > :31:22.no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project
:31:22. > :31:27.beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the
:31:27. > :31:32.negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how
:31:32. > :31:42.much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.
:31:42. > :31:48.Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you
:31:48. > :31:55.feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most
:31:55. > :32:01.vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.
:32:02. > :32:06.And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so
:32:06. > :32:19.much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether
:32:19. > :32:25.with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet
:32:25. > :32:31.minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg
:32:31. > :32:38.minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and
:32:38. > :32:45.entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on
:32:45. > :32:51.party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr
:32:51. > :32:57.Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world
:32:57. > :33:03.has changed. People do not rush out and join political parties as they
:33:03. > :33:11.used to. Instead they support you in different ways. If I released the
:33:11. > :33:15.number of people who give to the party in different ways, through
:33:15. > :33:24.donations for example, through friend memberships. If you include
:33:24. > :33:32.that that figure goes back up. But your membership has fallen by 50% at
:33:32. > :33:41.a time when UKIP has doubled. I do not want to to misinterpret what I
:33:41. > :33:46.want to say. It is important to gain members. I think we will have done
:33:46. > :33:52.that by the time of the next election. But one statistic of
:33:52. > :33:58.interest, in the last election I had a 17,000 majority in my own
:33:58. > :34:03.constituency. The difference was I had 1000 people helping me to
:34:03. > :34:09.deliver leaflets and knock on the doors. The Conservative party has
:34:09. > :34:19.changed. We now have an army of people, volunteers who are not
:34:19. > :34:25.necessarily traditional members. The days when you expect people to give
:34:25. > :34:29.you £25, before you accept their support, those days have passed. You
:34:29. > :34:39.spoke about your most vulnerable marginal seats. This is a poll from
:34:39. > :34:41.Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most marginal seats that you will be
:34:41. > :34:49.defending. Labour is way up, you are marginal seats that you will be
:34:49. > :34:59.way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both
:34:59. > :35:03.are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are
:35:03. > :35:09.moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32
:35:09. > :35:14.of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is
:35:14. > :35:19.perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position
:35:19. > :35:30.where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to
:35:30. > :35:36.deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they
:35:36. > :35:42.will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage
:35:42. > :35:50.payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League
:35:50. > :35:57.you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to
:35:57. > :35:59.come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It
:35:59. > :36:04.come 2015, people will see that this did not go for more borrowing and
:36:04. > :36:09.spending. And the record demonstrates that the last thing you
:36:09. > :36:14.want to do is give the car keys back to the people who crashed it in the
:36:15. > :36:22.first place. Lynton Crosby at this away day of Conservative MPs, his
:36:22. > :36:27.one message was to go all out and attack Ed Miliband. It is going to
:36:27. > :36:35.be a nasty election. That is actually not true. We are going to
:36:35. > :36:40.focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have
:36:40. > :36:48.seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The
:36:48. > :36:56.shadow chancellor said we would be ruthless, just a few months later,
:36:56. > :37:05.27.9 pounds of extra spending committed by Labour. These are your
:37:05. > :37:10.figures. I will speak to you about that during the Tory conference.
:37:10. > :37:15.It's just after 11:30. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming
:37:15. > :37:17.up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair Campbell gives us his
:37:17. > :37:19.not-too-positive review of Damian McBride's memoirs. Until then, the
:37:19. > :37:31.Sunday Hello and on the Sunday Politics
:37:31. > :37:34.Wales. As the Autumn conference bandwagon moves on to Brighton, we
:37:34. > :37:38.hear from Labour MP and shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith.
:37:38. > :37:43.A bullish UKIP leader Nigel Farage talks up his party's chances at
:37:43. > :37:45.Welsh ballot boxes. Joining me throughout today's
:37:45. > :37:54.programme are Labour's Paul Murphy and the Conservative Nick Ramsay.
:37:54. > :37:58.Good morning to you both. Let us begin with some headlines for the
:37:58. > :38:06.Labour Party in the papers. Not about the conference that about the
:38:06. > :38:13.book by the former spin doctor. Were you aware of the activities? No, I
:38:13. > :38:19.did not know him or anything about him. He should have gone before.
:38:19. > :38:23.That sort of stuff is not good in politics and it is no coincidence
:38:23. > :38:27.that he is coming out with this stuff at the same time as the Labour
:38:27. > :38:35.Party conference. Presumably, to get more money out of it. People of my
:38:35. > :38:39.generation never knew anything about that type of thing in politics. This
:38:39. > :38:45.is not the way to conduct political business. In terms of Gordon Brown,
:38:45. > :38:52.there were people around him that were aware of it. I use a plate he
:38:52. > :38:55.lasted so long? A lot of these things are done in an individual
:38:55. > :39:01.way. The spin doctor is something you do personally but up you go onto
:39:01. > :39:06.the computer and talk to people and follow up people and all the rest of
:39:06. > :39:09.it. Essentially, a lot of this was things he did himself and many
:39:10. > :39:16.people were not aware of it. When it came out, it was good that he went.
:39:16. > :39:23.That type of activity does not fit in with healthy politics. I use a
:39:23. > :39:30.prize to be reading about things that happened seven or eight years
:39:30. > :39:36.ago? It is great for other parties. The public thinks politics is all
:39:36. > :39:42.about the public face of politicians. But people behind the
:39:42. > :39:48.scenes are there. As we go along in political life, it is worth being
:39:48. > :39:52.aware of what people can say about you and how you manage that when it
:39:52. > :39:54.comes out. It is good to have transparency but a lot of parties
:39:54. > :39:59.get embarrassed when the truth comes out.
:39:59. > :40:02.Time now to hear from the Labour Party conference in Brighton where
:40:02. > :40:09.our correspondent David Cornock has been talking to the shadow Welsh
:40:09. > :40:13.Secretary, Owen Smith. Here in Brighton, we are starting to get a
:40:13. > :40:18.sense of the policies Labour will fight the next general election on.
:40:18. > :40:23.That is find out more from the Shadow Welsh Secretary. You can now
:40:23. > :40:29.answer the question you and said a few months ago, what will Labour do
:40:29. > :40:35.about the benefit cuts? I said we should reverse the bedroom tax and
:40:35. > :40:38.repeal it. I am delighted to say that we are now saying categorically
:40:38. > :40:46.that we will reverse the bedroom tax and scrap it when we are elected in
:40:46. > :40:51.2015. When Labour is in government, the first thing you will do is but
:40:51. > :40:57.welfare bills up and start a process that involves taxpayers subsidising
:40:58. > :41:05.people with spare bedrooms? The problem with the bedroom tax is
:41:05. > :41:09.sevenfold. It will not work. It will not lead to rehousing. The houses
:41:09. > :41:19.into which people are meant to move simply are not there. The £470
:41:19. > :41:23.million saving the government is anticipating will not work. It will
:41:23. > :41:30.not achieve the shift in people and big properties to small properties.
:41:30. > :41:34.Crucially, it is just plain not fair and wrong. I was at the conference
:41:34. > :41:40.with a Welsh tenants and residents, people being affected by the bedroom
:41:40. > :41:43.tax this week. People were horrified at the prospect of having to move
:41:43. > :41:48.out of communities and houses at which they had lived for 20 or 30
:41:48. > :41:55.years. It is not fair. We will pay for it by closing loopholes and we
:41:55. > :42:00.will pay for it by closing loopholes which affect the construction
:42:00. > :42:06.industry. We have spelt out how we will pay for it. A guaranteed
:42:06. > :42:11.wraparound childcare from eight in the morning until six at night in
:42:11. > :42:20.English schools. When will we see that in Wales? Soon, I hope what it
:42:20. > :42:26.is more difficult in ways to make decisions on a budget that is much
:42:26. > :42:32.smaller. But you will stick to the Conservative spending? Crucially,
:42:32. > :42:37.the Labour Party in Wales has gone a long way down the road to dealing
:42:37. > :42:40.with the problems of childcare. We have already dealt with, for
:42:40. > :42:46.example, offering free school breakfasts. In the quarters of a
:42:46. > :42:52.Welsh schools at the moment, we would like to go further. -- in
:42:52. > :42:59.three quarters. We have to recognise that budget for the Welsh assembly
:42:59. > :43:04.went up every year until the Conservatives came in and now it has
:43:05. > :43:10.declined. Our racket in terms of providing a proper budget for Wales
:43:10. > :43:29.is something we are proud of. -- our racket. Who runs public services in
:43:29. > :43:33.Wales? In the book, I talk about all sorts of things. People have lost
:43:33. > :43:41.faith in institutions, the BBC being one of them, that we used to put
:43:41. > :43:46.such faith in. It is to be held close to people 's hearts. It was
:43:46. > :43:51.cherished. One of the problems with the more consumerist, at, fragmented
:43:51. > :43:57.society that we have become, we no longer invest the same deal trust. I
:43:57. > :44:01.am not talking specifically about Wales in that chapter, I am talking
:44:01. > :44:06.about all of our society. We need to get back to the sense that we have
:44:06. > :44:09.got to trust in institutions and we have institutions that are
:44:09. > :44:13.delivering for people. As most people who experienced the NHS will
:44:13. > :44:19.tell you, they have terrific experience. Ask the people
:44:19. > :44:31.collectively whether they think the NHS or other institutions I like and
:44:31. > :44:35.you will get a different answer. We say in the book, one nation Labour
:44:35. > :44:47.wants to represent people of all classes across all parts of the
:44:47. > :44:59.country. We went to a public services. -- we won't say public
:45:00. > :45:06.services. -- we want to have say it public services.
:45:06. > :45:14.I was a special adviser in the Northern Ireland office. The crucial
:45:14. > :45:21.thing, this is ancient history. Yesterday 's men are warming over
:45:21. > :45:26.yesterday 's deeds. Ed Miliband was part of the government, as was I. He
:45:26. > :45:35.has no truck with that sort of briefing. That is old politics. The
:45:35. > :45:39.clear message coming out of this conference is that we need to deal
:45:39. > :45:44.with a crisis in living standards but we also need to deal with a
:45:44. > :45:50.crisis in people 's faith in politics. The Labour Party wants to
:45:50. > :45:54.reinvest faith in politics by being clean and full of integrity and
:45:55. > :46:00.honesty in what we do. Ed Miliband exemplifies that new politics. I am
:46:00. > :46:10.confident he will be able to express that and win over the British
:46:10. > :46:14.people. I went with talking about the announcement by Ed Miliband that
:46:14. > :46:23.Labour would abolish the bedroom tax. What is your response to that?
:46:23. > :46:29.Dear me, what a pickle they have got themselves into. They knew they are
:46:30. > :46:42.on a sticky wicket here. They try to lampoon the bedroom tax. They know
:46:42. > :46:47.the fans are not there to have the spare subsidy. I feel sorry for some
:46:47. > :46:51.people in the party who are trying their best to do the best with the
:46:51. > :46:57.hand they have been dealt with. The Labour Party had better grow up and
:46:57. > :47:02.be proper opposition pretty quick. You have been in opposition and
:47:02. > :47:06.government. We talked before the programme that it is difficult for
:47:06. > :47:13.opposition to decide when to introduce policies before an
:47:13. > :47:17.election. Do you think Ed Miliband has taken the right decision to
:47:17. > :47:26.start making policy announcements now? It is 20 months away from the
:47:26. > :47:30.general election. It seems to me he has to start putting down policy
:47:30. > :47:36.initiatives. The whole package comes when the manifesto comes out. You
:47:36. > :47:42.have to put in a complete package so people will know where the money is
:47:42. > :47:46.coming from. That will come at the time of a general election. You
:47:46. > :47:52.cannot have the next 20 months without policies. What do you make
:47:52. > :47:57.of the policies that have been announced? Scrapping the bedroom
:47:58. > :48:05.tax, there was one on immigration as well. Adults the of things you are
:48:05. > :48:15.happy to hear about? -- are those the kind of things you are happy to
:48:15. > :48:19.hear about? I am. That is a huge impact on the cost of living for the
:48:19. > :48:28.cost of living that people are struggling to live. They pay does
:48:28. > :48:36.not keep up with the prices. The zero hour contact, the bedroom tax.
:48:36. > :48:45.It is a wicked tax. Are you pleased your party will abolish it? Yes, we
:48:45. > :48:50.are seeing the impact. People do not have anywhere to move to. You do not
:48:51. > :48:58.have the privilege to move people in the bedroom houses to two bedroom
:48:58. > :49:03.houses. The public have a lack of an idea of the over arching strategy
:49:03. > :49:06.the Labour Party has. It is not enough to sit from the sidelines
:49:06. > :49:11.carping. Owen Smith has alluded to that. A number of people in the
:49:11. > :49:15.Labour Party are worried about where the party is. Just being negative
:49:15. > :49:19.and attacking. It has taken this long for the Labour Party to say
:49:19. > :49:24.they do not want the spare bedroom subsidy. It is just a vacuum. I
:49:24. > :49:35.honestly do not know where Ed Miliband thinks he is taking your
:49:35. > :49:44.party. Let us concentrate on Ed Miliband. Opinion polls of Labour
:49:44. > :49:51.councillors suggest they are not sure he is prime minister material.
:49:51. > :50:00.Two thirds of people asked said they did not think he was up for the job
:50:00. > :50:03.-- up to the job. I think a lot of policy initiatives will come out in
:50:03. > :50:08.the next week. A lot of people will see how courageous he is in the way
:50:08. > :50:12.he dealt with the Murdoch press and how he dealt with cilia and a few
:50:12. > :50:22.weeks ago. Opinion polls come and go. They do not have any reality at
:50:22. > :50:28.the time of a general election. 20 months ago, he was a different man.
:50:28. > :50:31.He grows in stature. Our conference season coverage
:50:31. > :50:38.continues now with the UK Independence Party. They met in
:50:38. > :50:40.London over the weekend. It was their 20th anniversary conference
:50:41. > :50:48.was according to party leader, their first in the political mainstream.
:50:48. > :50:56.The headlines were stolen by a member and comments about women who
:50:56. > :51:00.do not clean behind the fridge. I caught up with the leader and asked
:51:00. > :51:07.him if his party still wanted to abolish the National Assembly? No.
:51:07. > :51:11.That was old UKIP thinking that we should pretend devolution was not
:51:11. > :51:18.happening was up under my leadership, that has been reversed.
:51:18. > :51:24.We have had two referendums in Wales that has shown that. We are moving
:51:24. > :51:36.towards a more central model. That does not mean that we can ask for
:51:36. > :51:47.more devolution. We accept it. Your MVP went to the assembly to be
:51:47. > :51:54.abolished -- M E P. That is politics. Some people have different
:51:54. > :51:59.views. He says many people within the party feels the same as him. He
:51:59. > :52:07.may set up another party to campaign for the assembly to be abolished.
:52:07. > :52:12.Very good luck to him. UKIP has been going 20 years. It has taken us 20
:52:12. > :52:15.years to get where we are. Anyone who thinks they can start another
:52:15. > :52:24.party and get to where we are, they have another thing coming. You want
:52:24. > :52:29.to win seats at Westminster. You have no seats in Cardiff Bay. You
:52:29. > :52:38.polled less than 5% of the vote last time. A lot has changed since then.
:52:38. > :52:42.UKIP Wales has woken up to the reality of where we stand where
:52:42. > :52:47.there is perhaps our policy was not clear last time. UKIP has changed
:52:47. > :52:52.from being a party that people vote for in the European elections and
:52:52. > :52:56.ignore at local elections and national genital elections. The
:52:56. > :55:57.evidence for that happened in -- genital
:55:57. > :56:09.bone Nigel Farage was talking about putting meat on the bone. I do not
:56:09. > :56:20.think people have many ideas about what the party once. He is saying it
:56:20. > :56:28.is all different. But these can change their views? I am pleased he
:56:28. > :56:36.has caught up with where Nick Bourne was ten years ago. It is
:56:37. > :56:41.interesting. As Democrats, we like people to come forward with
:56:41. > :56:46.different views. As far as a serious party goes, I cannot see them in
:56:46. > :56:50.power. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the public would think we are wrong and
:56:50. > :56:54.they are the people to go for. I cannot see that party working
:56:54. > :56:58.nationally or internationally at this stage.
:56:58. > :57:00.Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:57:00. > :57:15.week in sixty seconds. Carwyn Jones said devolution had
:57:15. > :57:19.been scattered and needed to move to a lasting settlement. He said there
:57:19. > :57:23.should be an end to the 15 years of ad hoc tinkering with the
:57:23. > :57:28.Constitution. He called for a new written constitution. But
:57:28. > :57:33.Conservatives condemned National Grid plans to build a 33 mile power
:57:33. > :57:43.cable route for proposed wind farms in mid Wales. The Montgomeryshire MP
:57:43. > :57:54.said much of the group would be above ground and a blight on the
:57:54. > :58:04.landscape. The Plaid Cymru leader criticised a proposition for
:58:04. > :58:14.probation officers. John Griffiths urged people to get on their bikes
:58:14. > :58:20.for health and economic benefits. You will be getting on your bike
:58:20. > :58:27.down to Cardiff Bay this week. It has been a long recess? It is always
:58:27. > :58:30.the same. You go back to your constituency and get embroiled in
:58:30. > :58:40.the issues there. Coming back is always strange. Paul Murphy has been
:58:40. > :58:47.voting on military action in Syria at the same time? Yes, but they have
:58:47. > :58:53.a thesis for party conferences which we do not have. We do not have our
:58:53. > :58:58.cycle is ready to go cycling out of the studio. You are working on a
:58:58. > :59:01.task force for the worst government to get more people from
:59:01. > :59:11.comprehensives in Wales in Wales into Oxbridge. I am going to West
:59:11. > :59:15.Wales this week to see how they tackle this issue. The reason for
:59:15. > :59:19.this is that the number of young people actually getting into Oxford
:59:19. > :59:27.and Cambridge has dropped dramatically in Wales. More people
:59:27. > :59:32.go to Oxford and Cambridge from Eton and the whole of Wales. That is not
:59:32. > :59:39.right. Why is it important that they go there? It is not important in the
:59:39. > :59:43.fact that other universities are not good, but Oxford and Cambridge are
:59:43. > :59:47.among the top universities in the world. We should not deny the
:59:47. > :59:55.opportunity to young people who want to go there. They are recognised and
:59:55. > :59:59.over the last number of years, students simply have not aspired to
:59:59. > :00:03.go to Oxford and Cambridge. We have to change that and hopefully, when
:00:03. > :00:06.they have gone there, they can come back to Wales and the things they
:00:06. > :00:09.have learned and the talent and experiences they have developed will
:00:09. > :00:18.work in the interest of Welsh people.
:00:18. > :00:21.That's all from me this week. The assembly is back this week. It's
:00:21. > :00:32.back now to assembly is back this week. It's
:00:32. > :00:34.much. Leafing through the papers the assembly is back this week. It's
:00:34. > :00:40.last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the
:00:40. > :00:44.2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who
:00:44. > :00:47.should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian
:00:48. > :00:51.McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,
:00:51. > :00:59.timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail
:00:59. > :01:01.how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet
:01:01. > :01:05.Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought
:01:05. > :01:13.tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever
:01:13. > :01:21.met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of
:01:21. > :01:29.Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done
:01:29. > :01:36.in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it
:01:36. > :01:39.in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this
:01:39. > :01:45.time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now
:01:45. > :01:51.confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold
:01:51. > :01:59.the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and
:01:59. > :02:04.others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.
:02:04. > :02:13.I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage
:02:13. > :02:19.where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride
:02:19. > :02:25.was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do
:02:25. > :02:30.with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played
:02:30. > :02:39.quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the
:02:39. > :02:43.public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That
:02:43. > :02:50.Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we
:02:50. > :02:56.where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big
:02:56. > :03:02.things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot
:03:03. > :03:05.tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star
:03:05. > :03:10.players. That is why I am angry your own players kicking the star
:03:10. > :03:13.about it because I think they helped usher in a conservative government.
:03:13. > :03:16.If we had all stuck together I think we would still be there. The Tories
:03:16. > :03:18.If we had all stuck together I think did not win the last election, that
:03:18. > :03:23.If we had all stuck together I think is a reasonable point. But surely
:03:23. > :03:29.they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote
:03:29. > :03:34.their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown
:03:34. > :03:39.did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a
:03:39. > :03:41.reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge
:03:41. > :03:47.reasonably good relationship with him a lot about what Whelan was
:03:47. > :03:54.doing. He would always say, I will sort it out. Another thing that
:03:54. > :04:02.annoys me is this sense put forward by the right wing media that there
:04:03. > :04:07.was this sense of equivalence. People like Steve who I have known
:04:07. > :04:12.for years, there is not a single journalist with the very occasional
:04:12. > :04:16.exception where I lost my temper, who would honestly be able to tell
:04:16. > :04:25.you that I ever breathed against ministers. That was my golden rule.
:04:25. > :04:38.So we were presented as being... People say you were the forerunner.
:04:39. > :04:47.I know it was not the case. One of the reasons why I do despise what
:04:47. > :04:48.they did, the whole spin thing which Peter and I are probably most
:04:48. > :04:57.associated with, once I wrote a Peter and I are probably most
:04:57. > :04:59.piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But
:04:59. > :05:04.actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But
:05:04. > :05:09.had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the
:05:09. > :05:15.morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as
:05:15. > :05:20.part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not
:05:20. > :05:26.coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the
:05:26. > :05:31.time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed
:05:31. > :05:38.from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought
:05:38. > :05:45.that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.
:05:45. > :05:52.Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame
:05:52. > :06:01.leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age
:06:01. > :06:05.Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a
:06:05. > :06:12.great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible
:06:12. > :06:17.people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and
:06:17. > :06:23.giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm
:06:23. > :06:31.still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current
:06:31. > :06:37.administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the
:06:37. > :06:42.same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is
:06:42. > :06:45.when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing
:06:45. > :07:01.Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.
:07:01. > :07:07.I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at
:07:07. > :07:17.the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there
:07:17. > :07:24.was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at
:07:24. > :07:28.the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to
:07:28. > :07:29.the time. With this myth of see that there is full on both
:07:29. > :07:34.sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both
:07:34. > :07:38.case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both
:07:38. > :07:43.over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown
:07:43. > :07:49.and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the
:07:49. > :07:51.people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way of
:07:51. > :07:59.retaliation rather than initiation. things but they did then by way of
:07:59. > :08:04.The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.
:08:04. > :08:10.That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done
:08:10. > :08:13.in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to
:08:13. > :08:16.in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of briefings and Stephen and his
:08:16. > :08:22.colleagues would be there and I just had to sit there and not hit back.
:08:22. > :08:26.Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown would have anything to do with this.
:08:26. > :08:30.Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown You get to the stage where your own
:08:30. > :08:36.credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The
:08:36. > :08:42.promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you
:08:42. > :08:49.never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty
:08:49. > :08:57.far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It
:08:57. > :09:05.is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To
:09:05. > :09:10.keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And
:09:10. > :09:14.to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,
:09:14. > :09:19.about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy
:09:19. > :09:27.agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit
:09:27. > :09:32.the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're
:09:32. > :09:35.screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would
:09:35. > :09:39.say that the whole Shadow Cabinet yet they are neck and neck. I would
:09:39. > :09:43.and Labour Party has got to understand that you win elections by
:09:43. > :09:51.wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too
:09:51. > :09:55.much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that
:09:56. > :10:05.with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole
:10:05. > :10:11.bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even
:10:12. > :10:16.campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won
:10:16. > :10:20.yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the
:10:20. > :10:29.party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason
:10:29. > :10:35.why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free
:10:35. > :10:43.reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I know
:10:43. > :10:49.that. But I travel a lot. I travel around the world and Britain has a
:10:49. > :10:54.reputation as being the blues capital of the world. That is
:10:54. > :11:02.something we should be ashamed of. Why is that, is it cultural? I think
:11:02. > :11:09.it is historical. But I dig David Cameron was right to go for minimum
:11:09. > :11:17.unit pricing and wrong to do a reversal. 6% of alcoholics get
:11:17. > :11:24.unit pricing and wrong to do a treatment. I expect that drugs are a
:11:24. > :11:29.problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91
:11:29. > :11:35.million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you
:11:35. > :11:42.have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you
:11:42. > :11:48.alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think
:11:48. > :11:56.you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well
:11:56. > :12:01.partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I
:12:01. > :12:07.dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he
:12:07. > :12:14.started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women
:12:14. > :12:22.and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One
:12:22. > :12:28.doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and
:12:28. > :12:34.the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and
:12:34. > :12:39.emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of
:12:39. > :12:48.advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed
:12:48. > :12:57.this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on
:12:57. > :12:59.24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too
:12:59. > :13:06.means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had
:13:06. > :13:17.the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very
:13:18. > :13:22.much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be
:13:22. > :13:24.back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party
:13:24. > :13:28.Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the
:13:28. > :13:29.next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:13:29. > :13:36.Politics.