:00:20. > :00:45.do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron
:00:45. > :00:49.rushes out a scheme to help house-buyers with deposits. Is he
:00:49. > :00:53.merely stoking a new house price bubble? As Tory activist 's gather
:00:53. > :00:58.merely stoking a new house price in Manchester, we will have the
:00:58. > :01:00.results of our exclusive survey of Conservative councillors. I will be
:01:00. > :01:06.speaking to Foreign Secretary William Hague. And Ed Miliband made
:01:06. > :01:07.headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after
:01:07. > :01:09.headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the new
:01:09. > :01:15.Later in the programme: As the policy really stack up?
:01:15. > :01:18.Later in the programme: As the Conservatives gather in Manchester,
:01:18. > :01:19.we'll hear from their Assembly leader Andrew RT Davies on taxation,
:01:19. > :01:22.devolution and the Welsh budget. Conservative London politicians
:01:22. > :01:26.believe that strikes on the Underground should be made illegal,
:01:26. > :01:37.something the Prime Minister doesn't rule out.
:01:37. > :01:45.With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be
:01:45. > :01:54.tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the
:01:54. > :01:56.show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. The Conservative Party conference gets
:01:56. > :02:01.under way in Manchester this afternoon. We have already been
:02:01. > :02:06.bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for
:02:06. > :02:09.married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending
:02:09. > :02:13.cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of
:02:13. > :02:17.the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme will start next week. That is
:02:17. > :02:19.brought forward from the start of next year. David Cameron says it is
:02:19. > :02:28.all about helping hard-working people. Right now, you can't get,
:02:28. > :02:32.it's very difficult to get, a 90% or 95% mortgage. That means a typical
:02:32. > :02:34.family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being
:02:34. > :02:39.asked, to buy an average house, they 20,000, 25,000, they are being
:02:39. > :02:41.are being asked to find a £40,000 deposit. They can afford the
:02:41. > :02:44.are being asked to find a £40,000 mortgage payment, but they can't get
:02:44. > :02:47.the mortgage. They can't buy their flat or house. As Prime Minister,
:02:47. > :02:50.I'm not going to stand back while people's aspirations to get on the
:02:50. > :02:53.I'm not going to stand back while housing ladder, to own their own
:02:53. > :02:58.flat or home, is being trashed. That is why we need to act. A predictable
:02:58. > :03:03.attempt by party leadership to kick-start the conference with
:03:03. > :03:07.eye-catching policies. The polls show a big bounce for Ed Miliband
:03:07. > :03:12.and the Labour Party, with decent numbers for UKIP. What do party
:03:12. > :03:17.activists think about David Cameron's leadership and the
:03:17. > :03:19.challenge posed by UKIP? Adam Fleming has been meeting Tory
:03:19. > :03:25.councillors as they travel to their party conference.
:03:25. > :03:29.For the Conservatives this weekend, all roads and trams lead to
:03:29. > :03:36.Manchester for their party conference, and as a scene setter we
:03:36. > :03:41.asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors
:03:41. > :03:45.asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at
:03:45. > :03:50.home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there
:03:50. > :03:55.are pros and cons. But we found that 54% of his colleagues feel
:03:55. > :04:00.immigration has had a negative impact on the UK. I think it
:04:00. > :04:02.reflects into this wider issue of our relationship with Europe. People
:04:02. > :04:08.are very concerned about the possible influx of ovarian and
:04:08. > :04:18.Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --
:04:18. > :04:23.Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK
:04:23. > :04:26.Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative
:04:26. > :04:31.councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The
:04:31. > :04:39.concern is, yes, will they take votes away from ourselves in 2015?
:04:39. > :04:44.If that happens, maybe we don't get back in. Maybe a partnership is the
:04:44. > :04:50.way to go. It depends what they want and we want. But we should be
:04:50. > :04:55.talking about them. A pact? Depends what they say, anything is possible.
:04:55. > :05:07.What would you like to see? Ideally, from my point of view, a national
:05:07. > :05:12.pact. David Cameron arrived in Manchester last night. Around the
:05:12. > :05:21.same time as these activists from London. I broke the news to them
:05:21. > :05:25.that in our survey just 26% of Tory councillors think that the prime
:05:25. > :05:31.ministers in touch with the lives of ordinary people. The same at all
:05:31. > :05:34.Conservatives, you don't judge people by their background. It's not
:05:34. > :05:36.where they come from, it is where they are going to. It is not a
:05:36. > :05:40.where they come from, it is where problem that he is a bit on the posh
:05:40. > :05:47.side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those
:05:47. > :05:54.words. Explain your T-shirt, it is a phrase that a senior Cameron person
:05:54. > :05:56.is alleged to have used about you? It is a humorous way of letting the
:05:56. > :05:59.is alleged to have used about you? party now that we are here to say
:05:59. > :06:03.what we think. Members are important. We are not going away any
:06:03. > :06:08.time soon. A sentiment you will hear a lot at this conference, because
:06:08. > :06:11.just 22% of councillors in our survey said that David Cameron was
:06:11. > :06:18.any good at listening to the people that work hard for his party. That
:06:18. > :06:21.was Adam. Joining me now from the Conservative Party conference in
:06:21. > :06:26.Manchester, Foreign Secretary William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday
:06:26. > :06:34.Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey
:06:34. > :06:39.support a pact with UKIP at the next election. Why do you think that is?
:06:39. > :06:43.If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact
:06:43. > :06:47.with UKIP at the next election. They have noticed that UKIP, in local
:06:47. > :06:50.elections, has been receiving votes, some of which would otherwise have
:06:50. > :06:53.been for the Conservatives. I think we have to make sure that people
:06:53. > :06:58.understand that at a general election they are choosing between a
:06:58. > :07:01.Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister
:07:01. > :07:07.or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the only
:07:07. > :07:11.way to do that is to have David Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a
:07:11. > :07:15.general election is different from the local government perspective. It
:07:15. > :07:19.is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of
:07:19. > :07:21.one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition
:07:21. > :07:24.one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an
:07:24. > :07:32.election. When has that ever happened? Looking at your survey,
:07:32. > :07:36.three times as many didn't want to do that. As ever, with a survey,
:07:36. > :07:40.with statistics, you can highlight it whichever way around you want to.
:07:40. > :07:45.The point is, we are not having pacts with other parties, electoral
:07:45. > :07:48.pacts with other parties. You rule it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:48. > :07:52.What we do want is to have a pact it out? That is not going to happen.
:07:52. > :07:57.with the voters, if you like, as we have often done in the Conservative
:07:57. > :08:02.Party. We have won over the voters of other parties to support our
:08:02. > :08:05.policies and Prime Minister. That is important with those people that say
:08:05. > :08:08.they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour
:08:08. > :08:12.government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend, if
:08:12. > :08:16.they would otherwise vote Conservative and decide to vote for
:08:16. > :08:23.UKIP instead in a general election. That could help to produce a Labour
:08:23. > :08:29.government. The chairman of the 1922 committee, the elected voice of
:08:29. > :08:32.Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had
:08:32. > :08:38.once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.
:08:38. > :08:43.Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European
:08:44. > :08:52.elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,
:08:52. > :08:57.about the need the UK and the European treaties the concept of
:08:57. > :09:00.ever closer union, a concept that in Britain we have never really
:09:00. > :09:03.believed in. We would like that to be changed, with all of the
:09:03. > :09:07.consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the
:09:07. > :09:12.examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly
:09:12. > :09:16.over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general
:09:16. > :09:19.election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything that
:09:19. > :09:24.we are going to be able to negotiate, that is difficult because
:09:24. > :09:26.there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron as
:09:26. > :09:29.there will be a negotiation of a new Prime Minister after the next
:09:29. > :09:37.election. To some extent, that has to be negotiated. Only 11% of your
:09:37. > :09:39.own councillors feel that people in their area think that George Osborne
:09:39. > :09:46.is in touch with ordinary people. Why is he seemed to be so aloof? It
:09:46. > :09:52.is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The
:09:52. > :09:56.important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What
:09:56. > :10:01.George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million
:10:01. > :10:08.new jobs in the private sector, help for hard-working people, by reducing
:10:08. > :10:12.the tax for 25 million of them. The Help To Buy scheme that we are
:10:12. > :10:16.highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,
:10:16. > :10:20.I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed
:10:20. > :10:28.Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do
:10:28. > :10:36.about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people
:10:36. > :10:44.on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.
:10:45. > :10:51.Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going
:10:51. > :10:58.to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened
:10:58. > :11:01.now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not
:11:01. > :11:06.happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of
:11:06. > :11:10.Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened
:11:10. > :11:15.under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in
:11:15. > :11:19.opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big
:11:19. > :11:22.change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is, it
:11:23. > :11:31.would dry up some of the investment in the energy industry. I don't
:11:31. > :11:37.think it is a credible promise. For a party that presided over council
:11:37. > :11:46.tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government, it's
:11:46. > :11:50.not very credible. Why is George Osborne going against the European
:11:50. > :11:54.Union to protect banker bonuses? Well, we don't want to see the
:11:54. > :11:57.European treaties used in a way that they should not be used. It's not
:11:57. > :12:02.necessarily over this particular issue. It is over the power that the
:12:02. > :12:06.European Union has over our lives and over this country. Can the
:12:06. > :12:11.bankers look after themselves? We should be able to decide those
:12:11. > :12:18.things in our own country. We have never signed up to such matters in
:12:18. > :12:20.European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be
:12:20. > :12:24.decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be
:12:24. > :12:28.there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We
:12:28. > :12:33.are very vigilant about what we call competence creep, with the European
:12:33. > :12:37.Union taking more powers than it was meant to have. That is one of the
:12:37. > :12:40.reasons why people do want a referendum, do want a new deal in
:12:40. > :12:44.reasons why people do want a Europe. That is what we intend to
:12:44. > :12:51.give them. Let's look at in competence creep. A big city
:12:51. > :12:55.institution, ICAP, fined for fixing the LIBOR rates. The founder of that
:12:55. > :12:59.company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it
:12:59. > :13:04.back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own
:13:04. > :13:09.money to the Conservative Party. Which he made out of ICAP. As people
:13:09. > :13:13.have to other parties, people are free to do that and they should be
:13:13. > :13:18.free to do that. I am not aware of any plan for that to be repaid.
:13:18. > :13:23.Because you can't afford to. Let's recap this. We have seen Tory MPs
:13:23. > :13:27.parrot propaganda lines from the energy companies this week. We have
:13:27. > :13:29.the Chancellor going to court to fight for unlimited banker bonuses.
:13:29. > :13:33.We have a top Tory donor the centre fight for unlimited banker bonuses.
:13:34. > :13:37.of yet another city scandal. Ed Miliband is right when he says you
:13:37. > :13:40.lot are on the side of the vested interests so the rich and powerful,
:13:40. > :13:48.isn't he? Well, again, look at the record. I just did! 1.4 million
:13:48. > :13:54.extra jobs in the private sector, 25 million people with a tax cut, a
:13:54. > :13:57.Help To Buy scheme which is going to help so many people, particularly
:13:58. > :14:03.young people have the house that they need and deserve for the
:14:03. > :14:08.future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to
:14:08. > :14:10.work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working
:14:10. > :14:21.people and that will be highlighted to this conference.
:14:21. > :14:28.While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians
:14:28. > :14:35.are speeding up their nuclear weapons programme. -- is talking.
:14:35. > :14:38.It would be hard to say from week to week whether it is speeding up
:14:38. > :14:45.or slowing down but they are continuing with it. That is why we
:14:45. > :14:50.say the new message - the new words - from Iranian leadership are very
:14:50. > :14:54.welcome. I said that to the Foreign Minister in New York over the last
:14:54. > :14:59.few days but it is the actions that will count. At the moment, the
:14:59. > :15:03.nuclear programme continues. We have agreed to commence
:15:03. > :15:06.negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to
:15:06. > :15:12.whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we
:15:12. > :15:17.are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as a
:15:17. > :15:22.nuclear weapons negotiator. When will we know if he is not just
:15:22. > :15:27.doing that again? Over the next few weeks, it will be a very important
:15:27. > :15:32.time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian
:15:32. > :15:37.nuclear programme. It is not transparent in many regards at the
:15:37. > :15:42.moment. The atomic agency is asking for information that is not being
:15:43. > :15:47.given. One test is, in the coming weeks, will they give more
:15:47. > :15:51.information? The information that the international of authority is
:15:51. > :15:55.asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form
:15:55. > :16:00.a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test
:16:00. > :16:04.their new willingness to talk to us and negotiate with us. It is
:16:04. > :16:06.important to find out whether they are serious about it. You are
:16:07. > :16:11.asking, is the nuclear programme are serious about it. You are
:16:11. > :16:14.really continuing? Are they really going to be realistic about
:16:14. > :16:20.negotiations and offer something they have not offer before?
:16:20. > :16:28.Speaking of being strung along, what sanctions would President
:16:28. > :16:33.Assad face if, in six months - the Year, Syria still has a chemical
:16:33. > :16:40.weapons arsenal. In the resolution we voted through the UN Security
:16:40. > :16:44.Council on Friday night, is the commitment that the Security
:16:44. > :16:50.Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter in
:16:50. > :16:56.the event of non-compliance. Does that allow full force? I did not
:16:56. > :17:00.catch that. Does that allow for force? It is similar to the
:17:00. > :17:05.Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded
:17:05. > :17:13.in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about
:17:13. > :17:18.terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security
:17:18. > :17:24.Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if
:17:24. > :17:29.the Assad regime does not comply. Russia has a lot riding on this. It
:17:29. > :17:33.has a big commitment. I have spent a lot of time at my Russian
:17:33. > :17:38.counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something
:17:38. > :17:43.you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely
:17:43. > :17:48.to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress
:17:48. > :17:53.that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of
:17:53. > :18:06.Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason
:18:06. > :18:12.Commons stopped your rash to force has happened is because there was a
:18:12. > :18:18.credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it
:18:18. > :18:22.through Congress. They have not had the vote in Congress. There is no
:18:22. > :18:26.other explanation as to why the policy changed. It was because
:18:26. > :18:32.there was a debate about military action in the West that the policy
:18:32. > :18:37.changed on theirs. That is why it changed. We were not in a rush for
:18:37. > :18:41.military action. The boat put to the House of Commons was to have
:18:41. > :18:47.another Aotearoa after the inspectors reported. It was before
:18:47. > :18:55.we got to that point that the Russian and Syrian policy changed.
:18:55. > :19:04.We need to make sure that works in practice. Thank you. What do you
:19:04. > :19:09.make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which
:19:09. > :19:14.was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next
:19:14. > :19:21.couple of weeks? I think it is a terrible policy. The Treasury
:19:21. > :19:24.Select Committee, Perez a fundamental problem with the
:19:24. > :19:30.Government having an interest in mortgage lending. -- there is a
:19:30. > :19:35.fundamental problem. It should have been set much lower to exclude
:19:35. > :19:41.London and the South East where houses are dramatically overvalued.
:19:41. > :19:46.Many economists think freezing energy prices is a terrible policy.
:19:46. > :19:50.These policies can be popular. If you have no chance of getting a
:19:50. > :19:55.deposit, the Government will make that possible because it will
:19:55. > :19:58.guarantee a big chunk of the deposit. Do not forget George
:19:58. > :20:04.Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do
:20:04. > :20:11.anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it
:20:11. > :20:14.forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they are
:20:14. > :20:18.doing this is they want to show this week at the conference there
:20:18. > :20:21.are real sort of understandable issues you can explain very simply
:20:21. > :20:25.are real sort of understandable that really up going to improve
:20:25. > :20:32.people's lives. The Conservatives were slightly spooked by Ed
:20:32. > :20:37.Miliband's speech last week. The language used by David Cameron this
:20:38. > :20:47.morning was that the tax policy was nuts. Much more cautious and --
:20:47. > :20:52.language about the energy price freeze. They are nervous that Ed
:20:52. > :20:56.Miliband may be touching a nerve on that one. What we will get this
:20:56. > :21:02.week, I suggest, his Tory populism to counter Miliband populism. I
:21:02. > :21:04.week, I suggest, his Tory populism think we will see that and it will
:21:04. > :21:10.be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will
:21:10. > :21:17.about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the
:21:17. > :21:22.political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities
:21:22. > :21:26.of energy prices or living standards, things that are some way
:21:26. > :21:29.below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with the
:21:29. > :21:36.below that picture, I do not think Labour Party. It is about borrowing
:21:36. > :21:37.against a party that stands for the rectitude at a macro economic
:21:37. > :21:39.against a party that stands for the It is about getting the
:21:39. > :21:43.conversation back to where it It is about getting the
:21:43. > :21:49.before the Labour conference, which is unemployment, GDP growth and the
:21:49. > :21:54.warming economic picture. That does not pay energy bills. Does not
:21:54. > :22:00.sound that the Tories have anything not pay energy bills. Does not
:22:00. > :22:04.to counter the price freeze. -- it does not sound. They have had a
:22:04. > :22:09.week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.
:22:09. > :22:11.They have just said, the lights will go out. Now they're saying, it
:22:11. > :22:31.will not the credibility test. Ed Miliband
:22:31. > :22:36.said, if there were a big spike in energy prices, he would not be able
:22:36. > :22:44.to keep his freeze in those circumstances.
:22:44. > :22:45.to keep his freeze in those credibility test. It was
:22:45. > :22:45.to keep his freeze in those politically acute announcement but
:22:45. > :22:49.it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth
:22:49. > :22:52.it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.
:22:52. > :22:58.My worry about the announcement is more than any burst of popularity.
:22:58. > :23:06.with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins
:23:06. > :23:11.to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last
:23:12. > :23:16.week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue
:23:16. > :23:21.to go up, it will be a reminder of how much people are being hit in
:23:21. > :23:25.the pockets. People know by energy prices are going up. There is a
:23:26. > :23:30.structural change in the world that was not there before - China and
:23:30. > :23:35.India. These energy companies may be making huge profit but, at the
:23:35. > :23:42.end of the day, what is driving up the cost of fuel is China and India.
:23:42. > :23:47.Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the
:23:47. > :23:53.people Sammir on that one. How dare you! -- the People's Army. Ed
:23:53. > :23:56.Miliband came out fighting at Labour's Conference in Brighton
:23:56. > :23:59.last week. Dogged by criticism over the summer of his leadership style
:23:59. > :24:02.and lack of policies, Mr Miliband tried to demonstrate his strength
:24:02. > :24:04.of character with a series of bold announcements, and attempted to
:24:04. > :24:11.position himself on the side of ordinary Brits. The Labour leader
:24:11. > :24:13.told party members he would stand up to the strong and take on the
:24:13. > :24:17.vested interests that hold back our up to the strong and take on the
:24:17. > :24:21.economy. In a speech in which he jokingly referred to himself as an
:24:21. > :24:24.action hero, Mr Miliband promised to switch the forthcoming business
:24:24. > :24:28.action hero, Mr Miliband promised tax cut from large firms to smaller
:24:28. > :24:32.businesses. He said he would force big firms to train at an apprentice
:24:32. > :24:37.every time they bring in a worker from outside the EU. He hinted that
:24:37. > :24:44.increasing the minimum wage would be increased. He bowed to take on
:24:44. > :24:49.developers with a use it or lose it threat to landowners and pledged to
:24:49. > :24:55.build 200,000 homes each year by 2020. He promised to freeze energy
:24:55. > :24:59.prices and reset the energy market. The next Labour government will
:24:59. > :25:06.freeze gas and electricity prices until the start of 2017. That
:25:06. > :25:12.provoked a rash of headlines - hailing the return of red Ed macro.
:25:12. > :25:14.It has also given him a spike in the polls. And Labour's Shadow
:25:14. > :25:16.Energy Secretary Caroline Flint joins me now for the Sunday
:25:16. > :25:30.Interview. Ed Miliband says, our energy market
:25:30. > :25:35.is broken and does not work. In what way is that market to date
:25:35. > :25:42.different from the one Labour left behind in 2010? We have six
:25:42. > :25:49.companies that dominate the energy sector. It is the same. They
:25:49. > :25:53.generate energy, and sell it on to us. What we recognise and Ed
:25:54. > :25:55.Miliband recognised when he was Secretary of State and asked for
:25:55. > :25:59.more information from the company Secretary of State and asked for
:25:59. > :26:03.is on hold serve costs and profits, all the things we have done to
:26:03. > :26:06.mitigate against that in terms of a warm front programme and everything
:26:06. > :26:11.else has not dealt with the fundamental problem that the
:26:11. > :26:16.Horsell market is too secretive and it is too much about such supply. -
:26:16. > :26:18.- the wholesale market. We have been raising with the Government in
:26:18. > :26:25.- the wholesale market. We have a co-operative way the argument for
:26:25. > :26:31.resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which
:26:31. > :26:37.prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It
:26:37. > :26:40.was the start this dates back to Margaret Thatcher and the
:26:40. > :26:45.privatisation. We took some reforms to reset the market. We have
:26:45. > :26:50.realised it was not working and it was broken and we need to reset it.
:26:50. > :26:54.Ed Miliband will be the first to say we did not do enough from 2005
:26:54. > :26:59.onwards. Let's have a look at what happened to energy prices under the
:26:59. > :27:08.Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up
:27:08. > :27:14.by 48%. The market was broken and the Government as well. From 2005,
:27:14. > :27:21.we saw prices biking as wholesale prices went up. The tick action on
:27:21. > :27:28.the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we
:27:28. > :27:32.took action on per warm front programme. Trying to do things
:27:32. > :27:38.around social obligations needs to be looked at. Gas and electricity
:27:38. > :27:42.bills are high partially as a consequence of the market you
:27:42. > :27:48.presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look
:27:48. > :27:55.at the breakdown of dual fuel - gas and electricity bill. -- let's have
:27:55. > :27:59.a look. The supply costs of getting it to us and so on. The policies
:27:59. > :28:03.a look. The supply costs of getting that were introduced by your
:28:03. > :28:11.government - Green levies - are adding almost 10% to has told
:28:11. > :28:20.energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.
:28:20. > :28:28.Eight -- social and green obligations amount to £112. That
:28:28. > :28:29.helps the poorest insulate homes. Overwhelmingly, looking at your
:28:29. > :28:34.helps the poorest insulate homes. graph and the figures I have,
:28:34. > :28:41.wholesale costs are worth more than half. What we have seen, based on
:28:41. > :28:48.figures we now have, in Eni macro, a wholesale costs fell by 39% and
:28:48. > :28:54.that was not reflected in our bills. Do you have plans to do anything
:28:54. > :29:00.about the £112? If you took that off, you could cut bills by 10%
:29:00. > :29:04.tomorrow. Or if you were in power. It is important that restimulate
:29:04. > :29:11.the opportunity to grow clean energy. It -- we stimulate. If we
:29:11. > :29:15.do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil
:29:15. > :29:20.do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will
:29:20. > :29:24.create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,
:29:24. > :29:30.we have seen investment in renewable energy half. -- in
:29:30. > :29:34.investment. If I could go back to competition in the markets,
:29:34. > :29:39.whatever advance there are, looking at whether the money raised through
:29:39. > :29:43.energy companies to deliver energy efficiency, is that doing as well
:29:43. > :29:48.as it might? Could it be better delivered by another agency? They
:29:48. > :29:53.are fair questions. We need to get ahead of that and look at the
:29:53. > :29:56.market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is
:29:57. > :30:02.downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our
:30:02. > :30:04.bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help
:30:04. > :30:17.people during that period. As you complain about the energy
:30:17. > :30:20.prices, it was as a result of your actions. Ed Miliband introduced the
:30:20. > :30:27.climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for
:30:27. > :30:28.decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much
:30:28. > :30:32.decarbonisation. He said, we are as possible, but it is true there is
:30:32. > :30:37.not a low-cost energy future out there. It is important that we
:30:37. > :30:39.address the pressures on bills, but also recognise that if we are going
:30:40. > :30:42.to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British
:30:42. > :30:47.energy and, in the long-term, cheaper, we need to invest in
:30:47. > :30:51.renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge
:30:51. > :30:59.eyes what you say about the 112. I am not going to disagree. But
:30:59. > :31:08.wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in
:31:08. > :31:12.bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging
:31:12. > :31:16.customers. We are seeing profits going up, but we haven't seen the
:31:16. > :31:22.amount of investment suggested by those profits coming through. But
:31:22. > :31:27.that £125 is going to get worse, because your leader said in his
:31:27. > :31:31.speech in Brighton that Labour will have a world leading commitment in
:31:31. > :31:35.Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030. That
:31:35. > :31:41.is not that far away. By 2030, no more coal generation, no more gas
:31:41. > :31:42.generation, only much more expensive nuclear and much more expensive
:31:42. > :31:47.generation, only much more expensive renewables. It cannot be done
:31:47. > :31:52.without bills going up even further? Hang on a second. The 2030 target to
:31:52. > :31:56.remove carbon from the electricity supply, we have said we should set a
:31:56. > :32:00.target now because, actually, it gives us more time to plan ahead and
:32:00. > :32:03.also allows investment to come in. There is plenty of people with cash
:32:03. > :32:07.in their pockets not want to invest what they are stalling because of
:32:07. > :32:12.the Government's hesitancy over this. I just want a clarification
:32:12. > :32:16.here. My understanding is that your commitment is to get rid of all
:32:16. > :32:22.carbon from power generation by 2030? From the letters city supply.
:32:22. > :32:26.Only electricity. We will still have gas? We have always said we will
:32:26. > :32:36.need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be
:32:37. > :32:40.increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding
:32:40. > :32:47.twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables
:32:47. > :32:51.are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under your
:32:51. > :32:56.policies, and the coalition policies? On nuclear, we took a
:32:56. > :33:00.decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the
:33:00. > :33:05.sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the
:33:05. > :33:08.energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:08. > :33:11.present time are engaged in heavy lifting. The Government at the
:33:11. > :33:14.discussions with EDF about what the strike price should be. It's
:33:14. > :33:18.important, because I don't know what it's going to be, it is important
:33:18. > :33:19.that stands up to scrutiny in terms of value for money. At the same
:33:19. > :33:25.that stands up to scrutiny in terms time, I go back to market reforms.
:33:25. > :33:32.We will not just have a target for difference, the jargon for nuclear,
:33:32. > :33:36.we will have it for renewables as well. That is even more important,
:33:36. > :33:42.that we have a transparent market so that we can have a robust target
:33:42. > :33:46.price to be judged against. Michael Gove recognised in question time
:33:46. > :33:50.that the market was not working. The Telegraph said in its editorial,
:33:50. > :33:56.they used the term cosy cartel. We have former advisers to David
:33:56. > :34:00.Cameron saying something needs to be done. I'm surprised David Cameron
:34:00. > :34:06.doesn't acknowledge that. You are going to freeze prices for 20 months
:34:06. > :34:07.and will come up with a new regulator to replace Ofgem. Will
:34:07. > :34:11.that regulator have the power to regulator to replace Ofgem. Will
:34:11. > :34:17.control prices? The new energy watchdog will have a strategy
:34:17. > :34:20.responsibility to monitor the wholesale costs and prices, which it
:34:20. > :34:24.currently doesn't have at the moment. As a result of that it will
:34:24. > :34:28.currently doesn't have at the have the power that, if the
:34:28. > :34:34.wholesale prices fall, it can force the energy companies, if they don't,
:34:34. > :34:37.to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we
:34:37. > :34:41.to pass on reductions in bills to see in some parts of the European
:34:41. > :34:45.Union, 15 of them, that have a variety of price controls that set
:34:45. > :34:50.things at below inflation and what have you. France, Spain, Italy. It
:34:50. > :34:54.will not do that. Why? Because we are looking at a temporary price
:34:54. > :34:57.freeze to reflect a reduction in are looking at a temporary price
:34:57. > :35:01.wholesale prices, to give the British public respite from ever
:35:01. > :35:05.climbing bills while they get reforms into the market. At the end
:35:05. > :35:06.of this, what we want is a more competitive market that can be
:35:07. > :35:11.trusted, that is more transparent. competitive market that can be
:35:12. > :35:16.We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that
:35:16. > :35:19.has much more of a role in making sure the market is managed
:35:19. > :35:29.effectively. Are you accusing energy companies of profiteering? EU I am
:35:29. > :35:32.accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction
:35:32. > :35:44.costs to the customer in a fair way. Of making Carter -- cartel profits?
:35:44. > :35:49.I do believe that the level of profits they have passed on to their
:35:49. > :35:52.shareholders is high, compared to the reductions they could have
:35:52. > :35:59.provided to consumers. Let's look at the evidence for that. Here are the
:35:59. > :36:03.British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year
:36:03. > :36:10.they made combined earnings of £4 billion. But they invested £3
:36:10. > :36:15.billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,
:36:15. > :36:18.which go into pension funds. Where in these figures is the
:36:18. > :36:28.profiteering? My figures that I got through their reporting to Ofgem and
:36:28. > :36:32.work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that in
:36:32. > :36:38.Centrica's case they have something like 8% return in profit margins on
:36:38. > :36:40.the retail side. That goes up to 24% on the generation side. They have
:36:40. > :36:46.passed on, in terms of profits, something I70 4% through evidence to
:36:46. > :36:54.shareholders. But these figures don't show that. They have invested
:36:54. > :36:59.£3 billion. I am reporting what has been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has
:36:59. > :37:03.not accused them of property in. They may well be, but we don't have
:37:03. > :37:06.the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem of not doing the job they should be
:37:06. > :37:12.doing, and they have held back from tackling the issue. It is
:37:12. > :37:16.acknowledged, across the sector, across the big six, something like
:37:16. > :37:21.50% of profits has gone over to dividends to shareholders. In
:37:21. > :37:24.Centrica's case it is 74%. On the Centrica example, even though they
:37:24. > :37:27.have had the highest profit margins, they have invested the least. It is
:37:27. > :37:34.have had the highest profit margins, fair to question. We are running out
:37:34. > :37:39.of time. None of us really know what the true price of energy is that is
:37:39. > :37:42.Labour's policy to reform his crucial. That is because he merged
:37:42. > :37:46.the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting
:37:46. > :37:51.prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in a
:37:51. > :37:54.way that they do, do you rule out wholesale nationalisation?
:37:54. > :37:59.Absolutely. I want a more competitive market and that is why
:37:59. > :38:02.we are resetting it. You are watching Sunday Politics. Coming up
:38:02. > :38:03.in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our
:38:03. > :38:17.political panel Hello, and on Sunday Politics Wales:
:38:17. > :38:21.As the Conservatives gather in Manchester, we'll hear from their
:38:21. > :38:25.Assembly leader, Andrew RT Davies. And a warning that jobs could go and
:38:25. > :38:29.stores close if the Welsh Government decides to cut business rate relief
:38:29. > :38:31.for charity shops. Joining me throughout today's
:38:31. > :38:37.programme are two Assembly members - Plaid Cymru's Jocelyn Davies and the
:38:37. > :38:42.Conservative, William Graham. Good morning to you both. Let's talk
:38:42. > :38:45.about an article in one of the newspapers this morning from the
:38:45. > :38:50.Chief Constable of Cumbria police who says that all class a drugs
:38:50. > :38:57.should be decriminalised. I remember a few years ago you had
:38:57. > :39:06.Lemmy talking about the dangers of drugs. Drugs cause untold misery and
:39:06. > :39:12.death. You must examine it in a very objective way. It has to be examined
:39:12. > :39:16.once again but in a very detailed form, perhaps with the odd pilots to
:39:16. > :39:27.see if it works. It isn't the first time we have heard this. I think
:39:27. > :39:34.there were similar calls. Yes, he wet even further and called for
:39:34. > :39:39.heroin to be provided on the NHS. I agree with William. This is
:39:39. > :39:43.something I wouldn't dismiss but we need to look very carefully at what
:39:43. > :39:47.the impacts would be and I think pilots would be a good idea. We will
:39:47. > :39:50.leave it there for now. As we have heard already, the
:39:50. > :39:52.Conservatives are holding their annual conference in Manchester. And
:39:52. > :39:55.as we continue our conference coverage, their Assembly leader,
:39:55. > :39:59.Andrew RT Davies, has been talking to our correspondent, David Cornock.
:39:59. > :40:05.Hello from Manchester and a very important conference, this, for the
:40:05. > :40:10.Conservatives. It is 20 months before the general election in 2015.
:40:10. > :40:17.What impact will it have in Wales? Let's talk to Andrew RT Davies will
:40:17. > :40:22.stop -- Andrew RT Davies. There was a report a year ago that Wales
:40:22. > :40:29.should have tax evading powers. We're waiting for response. What
:40:29. > :40:35.does that say about the conservative attitudes to devolution? Your Mac
:40:35. > :40:37.automatically, the Conservatives in London delivered legislative powers
:40:37. > :40:45.to the Assembly. We have full executive responsibility and can
:40:45. > :40:51.make primary legislation. I believe a couple of weeks waiting for silk
:40:51. > :41:00.will not make a difference. The couple of weeks? It is often now. --
:41:00. > :41:04.autumn now. I can fully appreciate those implications. We're very close
:41:04. > :41:07.by population along the land border with England and we have to look at
:41:07. > :41:13.those things across the whole of the United Kingdom. We have all signed
:41:13. > :41:15.up to making sure there is accountability and responsibility to
:41:16. > :41:20.the amount spent in Wales. This is taxpayers money. What we have is a
:41:20. > :41:26.Government in Cardiff Bay that fritters valuable tax payers money
:41:26. > :41:31.away, and has no accountability for the way it is raised. We will get
:41:31. > :41:34.there, but it's important that when the packages delivered it is
:41:34. > :41:39.complete and delivers the responsibility we all want to see.
:41:39. > :41:46.Nick Clegg says the conservative half of the Coalition is blocking
:41:46. > :41:51.for the devolution on principle. Do you believe everything the Deputy
:41:51. > :41:59.Prime Minister says? He is in Coalition with your party. What I am
:41:59. > :42:03.talking about is the Welsh agenda, and that is putting real change to
:42:03. > :42:08.Wales and making sure that people know there is an alternative. We put
:42:08. > :42:12.various policies forward in the last 12 months to invest in Wales, get
:42:12. > :42:18.finance for business, we generate high streets, talk about taxation to
:42:18. > :42:25.stimulate the Welsh economy, bringing back grammar schools. There
:42:25. > :42:31.is an appetite for solutions to the problems people in Wales face. I
:42:31. > :42:35.grammar schools the solution? When an idea was put forward in
:42:35. > :42:42.Westminster, the minister involved was sacked. That is Westminster, not
:42:42. > :42:50.Cardiff. That is what evolution is about. I could go on, but your
:42:50. > :42:54.listeners would forcefully. -- your viewers would fall asleep. These are
:42:54. > :43:00.the issues that we can bring forward to the public to for change after 13
:43:00. > :43:03.years of stagnation. We had the dead hand of labour around the throat of
:43:03. > :43:13.the Welsh economy. We need a change in Wales and Conservatives are not
:43:13. > :43:17.for the fight. -- out from a fight. Any discussions about getting the
:43:17. > :43:22.budget through? Any discussions with other parties about forming an
:43:22. > :43:26.alliance to get what you want? We have outlined our priorities, which
:43:27. > :43:30.is making sure the Welsh NHS has the resources it needs to make sure the
:43:30. > :43:33.people get back on the road of recovery when they are struck with
:43:33. > :43:37.illness so they can get back to employment and being in avoidable
:43:37. > :43:41.and the earning money for the economy and themselves. It is
:43:41. > :43:46.disappointing on the eve of the conference that I can see an
:43:46. > :43:51.extension to the drugs fund that will be an official to people in
:43:51. > :43:59.England to have a diagnosis, and yet in Wales, we have a failure to
:43:59. > :44:03.support this policy. Many people are suffering as a result, and I hope
:44:04. > :44:08.the political parties will rally around because of the NHS. You
:44:08. > :44:15.haven't had a discussion with other parties got you might -- with other
:44:15. > :44:20.parties quicken my there are always discussions going on. We have mapped
:44:20. > :44:25.out a position. The First Minister has the responsibility to map out
:44:25. > :44:28.his territory. It is interesting, the future of the Welsh
:44:28. > :44:32.Conservatives, or cause you have carved out a distinctive position.
:44:32. > :44:37.But that position is so distinctive it is hard to see you as a potential
:44:37. > :44:43.party of Government given you are unlikely to win a majority. I
:44:43. > :44:49.disagree. We need to put forward a progressive agenda in 2016. We have
:44:49. > :44:53.started doing that as the position of the largest opposition. I hope
:44:53. > :44:58.other parties want to see a prosperous economy, better education
:44:58. > :45:04.standards, and a bust NHS delivering for the people of Wales. People will
:45:04. > :45:07.be all to sign up for that. We are a centre-right party proud of our
:45:07. > :45:13.roots and traditions and proud to be Welsh Conservatives.
:45:13. > :45:19.Jocelyn Davies, let's touch on budget and alterations -- budget
:45:19. > :45:23.negotiations. You have been involved in that. Are you aware of
:45:24. > :45:30.discussions ongoing with the Conservatives? I am not. I do not
:45:30. > :45:34.think we learned much in that interview about whether he had
:45:34. > :45:38.anything to give away or not. I don't think the Tories are middle
:45:38. > :45:43.shooting with Labour. It will be interesting to see if they do. We
:45:43. > :45:46.decided to join in an alliance with the Liberal Democrats to get a
:45:46. > :45:50.better deal out of the negotiations because in the past Labour has been
:45:50. > :45:59.able to play one of us off against the other. The cant do that this
:45:59. > :46:05.year. -- they cannot do that. You don't think they will have to settle
:46:05. > :46:12.for chicken, as Andrew Davies said? I don't think so. You wouldn't look
:46:12. > :46:15.at it in that light. We decided we would join forces with the Liberal
:46:15. > :46:22.Democrats to get a better deal all round. It will prevent labour from
:46:22. > :46:24.playing one of against the other. The other alternative is Andrew RT
:46:25. > :46:31.Davies and I don't think they will do that. That is not a possibility,
:46:31. > :46:34.is it? Your party will be outside these negotiations and unable to
:46:34. > :46:42.influence the budget. It doesn't work like that. They may well have
:46:42. > :46:45.talked to us and we have talked to them in the past. We had a
:46:45. > :46:51.negotiation previously that fell down in the end. What is good is
:46:51. > :46:55.that opposition parties are going to get a decent amount out of the
:46:55. > :47:00.Labour Government when it was previously very small. Jocelyn
:47:00. > :47:06.alluded to an alliance with the Lib Dems. You will know all about that
:47:06. > :47:15.as a conservative. David Carter not asked Andrew RT Davies -- our
:47:15. > :47:19.correspondent was bidding to Andrew RT Davies. You think it is important
:47:19. > :47:29.that we see the Government response to Silks and other later? There has
:47:29. > :47:33.to be proper consultations on tax-raising powers and even if
:47:33. > :47:39.granted there must be a referendum. What about the delay? I am
:47:39. > :47:45.disappointed. Should any of these measures -- measures require
:47:45. > :47:50.legislation before the election, we're running out of time. Other
:47:50. > :47:57.Conservatives at Westminster holding that back? They have not denied it.
:47:58. > :48:03.I am assuming that probably is correct. That makes it difficult for
:48:03. > :48:08.due in Wales because you support these recommendations, don't you?
:48:08. > :48:12.This is what happens in a devolved settlement. We don't completely
:48:12. > :48:16.follow the Westminster line, we have our own policies. This is one of
:48:16. > :48:23.them. We would press for the right solution and not rush into it. The
:48:23. > :48:26.key message from this conference, we understand, 18 months before the
:48:26. > :48:35.election, what you want to see from David Cameron? The housing proposals
:48:35. > :48:38.are worthwhile looking at again. There are lots of people desperate
:48:38. > :48:46.to own a house and this will enable that to occur. That is good. We
:48:46. > :48:51.won't have it in Wales, that is bad. What you make of David Cameron's
:48:51. > :48:57.announcement on the help to buy? Saving the deposit when house pros
:48:57. > :49:02.at -- house prices are so high detail is a lot of people. If you
:49:02. > :49:05.need 20,000 £30,000 to get down, even though you can afford a
:49:05. > :49:11.mortgage, we need something helps first-time buyers. We need to be
:49:11. > :49:15.careful not to drive up prices by providing it to easily. There is a
:49:15. > :49:19.fine balance to be struck. I would be cautious about it.
:49:19. > :49:22.We will leave it there for now. The biggest charity retailer in
:49:22. > :49:26.Wales, Tenovus, has abandoned plans to open 14 new shops over the next
:49:26. > :49:28.two years as the Welsh Government considers cutting business rate
:49:28. > :49:32.relief for charities. It's warning that jobs and stores could close has
:49:32. > :49:35.been echoed by the British Heart Foundation Cymru which says almost a
:49:35. > :49:38.third of its shops are under threat if ministers go ahead with the
:49:38. > :49:45.proposals next week. Here's our business correspondent, Brian
:49:45. > :49:48.Meechan. From fighting cancer at home to
:49:48. > :49:53.fighting poverty across the globe and much else in between. Shops have
:49:53. > :49:56.been a useful tool for many charities, selling on donations to
:49:56. > :50:02.raise monitor for the wider objectives. They are a familiar
:50:02. > :50:06.sight across high streets in Wales, even more so in these troubled
:50:06. > :50:12.economic times. But our charity shops a vital part of local
:50:12. > :50:16.communities or have too many of them opened up, stifling business for
:50:16. > :50:21.commercial stores? Charity shops which pay reduced business rates
:50:21. > :50:26.have been said to drive up business rates and that commercial shops out
:50:26. > :50:36.of business. Not so, say campaigners. There is no evidence to
:50:36. > :50:44.show that charity shops are one of the causes of decline on the high
:50:44. > :50:48.street. The Government has been looking at cutting the relief on
:50:48. > :50:54.rates from 80 to 50% unwashed shops. Abolishing relief completely for the
:50:54. > :50:59.guest shops to pay full rates. And limiting the amount of charity shops
:50:59. > :51:04.in an area. This charity store in Newport is one of the 34 in Wales.
:51:04. > :51:09.As a large furniture store, it would lose rates relief and would have to
:51:09. > :51:18.pay the full amount. This would threaten the viability of our shops
:51:18. > :51:22.in Wales. We calculated a possible closure of around ten shops. That
:51:22. > :51:28.means a loss of jobs. Over 30 jobs of managerial staff. Proposals have
:51:28. > :51:33.already had an impact according to the Chief Executive of the cancer
:51:33. > :51:38.charity, Tenovus. It has abandoned plans to open 14 shops in the next
:51:38. > :51:44.two years. I am completely baffled by the proposals. It makes me
:51:44. > :51:47.incredibly sad. What we have got to remember here that Tenovus is that
:51:47. > :51:55.our Shield holders are cancer piece in which -- our shareholders are
:51:55. > :52:02.cancer patients and families. The money we would lose if we stood
:52:02. > :52:08.still now would pay for two cancer support advisers. They see patients
:52:08. > :52:12.day in and day out in outreach centres and communities so the
:52:12. > :52:17.impact is large for us. Many small retailers want a level playing field
:52:17. > :52:21.with charities. The Federation of Small Businesses it says it has to
:52:21. > :52:25.be kept in context. It is an important subject that has an impact
:52:25. > :52:32.on our members. I don't think you can blame charity shops for every
:52:32. > :52:34.walk that the high street is having. It is clearly about out-of-town
:52:34. > :52:40.shopping and that more of us want to shop online. The Welsh Government
:52:40. > :52:43.will outline plans next week. Liberal Democrats and some Welsh
:52:43. > :52:46.charities have told us that they have legal advice that say ministers
:52:46. > :52:51.don't have those powers unless they change the law fast. Many charities
:52:51. > :52:55.argue that there driven -- if they are driven off the high streets,
:52:55. > :52:57.they wouldn't be replaced by small retailers but rather by payday loan
:52:58. > :53:03.companies, pawnbrokers and empty shops.
:53:03. > :53:10.Both of your parties have policies alluding to business rate relief
:53:10. > :53:17.scrapping business rates up to a certain level. What do you expect
:53:17. > :53:19.from the Minister this week? If she acts on the recommendations, she
:53:19. > :53:26.will register relief available charity shops. I visited that shop
:53:26. > :53:29.in Newport in the summer, and I think in terms of other traders, so
:53:29. > :53:33.long as they are not selling new goods, that is a major issue. When
:53:33. > :53:38.you are selling new goods, you have the benefit of rate relief and the
:53:38. > :53:47.majority of shop workers are volunteers. They do occupy large
:53:47. > :53:51.stores. The rates on that are hundreds of thousands idea in
:53:51. > :53:54.Newport alone. No-one is trying to drive charity shops from the high
:53:54. > :53:58.street. They are very necessary part of that in many towns. Retailing is
:53:58. > :54:03.changing and we have to take account of that. We must make our policies
:54:03. > :54:09.in June to make sure there are more longer these huge numbers of shops,
:54:09. > :54:15.that are open, sorry, and are not just left vacant. There is an issue
:54:15. > :54:20.that if the rate relief was changed and charity shops didn't open in
:54:20. > :54:25.towns or closed down, they wouldn't necessarily be filled by businesses
:54:25. > :54:29.anyway. I would fear that those businesses would then be empty. Even
:54:29. > :54:32.though other traders might think they are in competition, more and
:54:32. > :54:37.more empty premises mean less and less fruitful. It would mean and
:54:37. > :54:42.detrimental effect on other shopkeepers because if no-one wants
:54:42. > :54:46.to go -- no-one wants to go to a town when half the shops and empty.
:54:46. > :54:50.We all like charity shops. The other side of the coin is that those
:54:50. > :54:54.charities do very good work. If they don't have the prophets, who will
:54:54. > :54:58.fund the bill for those good works? I don't think the Government will.
:54:58. > :55:02.It is a fine balance. Maybe there will be a compromise of some sort.
:55:02. > :55:04.Perhaps if they are selling brand-new goods rather than
:55:04. > :55:13.second-hand goods where there is definite competition. You have been
:55:13. > :55:21.lobbied quite strongly on this. From who? From the charities directly and
:55:21. > :55:24.small businesses. I have been lobbied by members of the public
:55:24. > :55:29.supporting the charitable works that charities do. I think they put a
:55:29. > :55:37.very good adamant forward. Who will carry out his good works grit --
:55:37. > :55:40.good works but you might we have from charities who said he might not
:55:40. > :55:46.open new shops summer might close. That will have an impact on the high
:55:46. > :55:51.streets. There is no doubt about it. There is no clear solution. We have
:55:51. > :55:58.to take action, and I suspect we will see some reduction in rates
:55:58. > :56:05.relief will stop -- Rachel relief. In times of recession and if you
:56:05. > :56:13.look at Newport, it is a town in decline. It is a simple solution but
:56:13. > :56:18.a complex situation which I don't think is the answer. Your party
:56:18. > :56:23.released a document about your vision for the high street,
:56:23. > :56:25.introducing free parking. Our high streets under threat because of
:56:25. > :56:31.out-of-town shopping and those kinds of things? They are under threat
:56:31. > :56:35.because the way in which people shop is different. If you do not have
:56:35. > :56:43.good parking or free parking, a cross-section of traders, including
:56:43. > :56:49.independence, we have an over abundance of retail. There are huge
:56:49. > :56:54.numbers of small shops and that has got to change the way we look at
:56:54. > :56:59.more residential redevelopment of that kind. If there are too many
:56:59. > :57:06.shops, leave it to the market, let them close down? That does happen.
:57:06. > :57:10.There might be the generation. We need to decide what town centres are
:57:10. > :57:15.for. When it's look at our behaviour, all of us, and not go
:57:15. > :57:21.into the town we are not going to the town centres. We cannot get what
:57:21. > :57:25.we want when they go there. That is why shoppers often bareback on the
:57:25. > :57:27.high street. We will be back with you shortly.
:57:27. > :57:40.Time now for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:57:40. > :57:44.week in 60 seconds. Conservative MP called for Gordon
:57:44. > :57:46.Brown's former press officer Damien McBride to be investigated by the
:57:46. > :57:52.police and Civil Service ready later. The MP said Mister McBride
:57:52. > :57:54.admitted in his book that he accessed the former Prime
:57:54. > :58:02.Minister's e-mail account without authorisation. He said this was an
:58:02. > :58:05.abuse of the computer misuse act. Assembly members passed a new law
:58:05. > :58:10.aimed at protecting the rights of mobile home residents. The Liberal
:58:10. > :58:15.Democrat MP said his Private member 's Bill would help residents who
:58:15. > :58:20.have suffered intimidating behaviour.
:58:20. > :58:30.Paul Murphy opposed the plan to introduce a Welsh name to the
:58:30. > :58:35.village of Varteg. Locals said a new name would mock the village. The MP
:58:35. > :58:48.said moves like this would fuel resentment.
:58:48. > :58:58.Jocelyn Davies, we have about Peter Black's Lord Mayor on mobile homes.
:58:58. > :59:03.An observation by you on that? There was something in the bill which I
:59:03. > :59:08.think is very interesting. And the definition of family. We have
:59:08. > :59:13.spouses and civil partnerships and injuring family relationships in the
:59:13. > :59:17.same category. No discrimination, none superior to the other. I am
:59:17. > :59:21.proud of the other. I am proud Welsh Government supported that and that
:59:21. > :59:25.every Assembly member was keen to do that so we have a new definition.
:59:25. > :59:31.First in the British Isles in this legislation. That links into your
:59:31. > :59:35.party's announcement only married persons tax allowance. Perhaps they
:59:35. > :59:41.could have looked at this legislation. It is a very good
:59:41. > :59:46.definition. I trust Westminster will look more closely and interviews
:59:46. > :59:51.more legislation on that basis. Both of you represent Southeast Wales. We
:59:51. > :59:58.have been mention of Varteg there. You think this is a nonsense, do
:59:58. > :00:06.you? If local people don't want it, why impose it? Everyone knows it as
:00:06. > :00:12.Varteg. Why embarrass the people was a stupid name? The villagers of
:00:12. > :00:16.course wouldn't mind a Welsh place name, they just don't want that one.
:00:16. > :00:19.I wonder if we could have got with something else and given it another
:00:19. > :00:22.name in Welsh they would have been more comfortable with. They not
:00:22. > :00:30.objecting to the Welsh language, they just want -- they just do not
:00:30. > :00:34.want that what. Paul Murphy said it is embarrassing to local people.
:00:34. > :00:38.Have you spoken to people there? People have been in touch. They
:00:38. > :00:48.thought they would get adverse political -- publicity, and is only
:00:48. > :00:53.have. How does this move forward? With difficulty, I suspect. It has
:00:53. > :01:01.been Varteg for germination is I do not see a need for real change. --
:01:01. > :01:03.it has been Varteg for generations. Lovely to see you. That is all we
:01:03. > :01:04.have time for this week. and Emily Thornberry. Back to you,
:01:04. > :01:16.Andrew. So, we'll David Cameron's marriage
:01:16. > :01:24.tax break win over voters? How will So, we'll David Cameron's marriage
:01:24. > :01:27.the Tories react to Ed Miliband's conference initiatives? And what is
:01:27. > :01:39.UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to conference initiatives? And what is
:01:39. > :01:42.with the Tories in Manchester? Joining us now is UKIP's Diane
:01:42. > :01:49.James. She came second in the easterly by-election.
:01:49. > :01:56.On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,
:01:56. > :02:02.let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not
:02:02. > :02:05.looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice
:02:05. > :02:09.at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We are
:02:09. > :02:12.on the right track, we are seeing more jobs, new businesses, we are
:02:12. > :02:18.beginning to get things moving again. Do you want to stick with us,
:02:18. > :02:20.delivering an economy for hard-working people, or do you want
:02:20. > :02:25.to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want
:02:25. > :02:29.and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime
:02:29. > :02:34.Minister on the Sunday Politics. Is there any appetite on the UKIP side
:02:34. > :02:39.for a pact? In my experience, discussions around the country, I
:02:39. > :02:50.would say no. It's being discussed, then? EU no. It has not come up. It
:02:50. > :02:54.is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened
:02:54. > :02:59.with the parties since the conference season began. Labour are
:02:59. > :03:03.trying to reclaim what I would call the traditionalist socialist
:03:03. > :03:06.position. I'm not sure what the Liberal Democrats or two, but the
:03:06. > :03:09.Conservatives are trying to react to the threat that UKIP represents.
:03:10. > :03:15.There is this element, the accusation they are lurching more to
:03:15. > :03:18.the right, which the media wants to interpret as them possibly being
:03:18. > :03:24.able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to
:03:24. > :03:27.what shape it would take? Not whatsoever. It is not on the radar.
:03:27. > :03:33.I have read comments, including individual such as Douglas
:03:33. > :03:39.Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's
:03:39. > :03:43.call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt
:03:43. > :03:46.that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is
:03:46. > :03:52.not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an
:03:52. > :03:57.electoral pact, not a coalition. I have responded to that by saying,
:03:57. > :04:00.the moment, there are no ongoing discussions. There is certainly
:04:00. > :04:04.nothing that has been discussed at a constituency level or coming out of
:04:04. > :04:07.the national executive. You don't believe any constituencies are
:04:07. > :04:14.discussing this with Tory Eurosceptics? I am not privy to what
:04:14. > :04:18.all 360 constituencies might be discussing. All I can do is give you
:04:18. > :04:24.the example of the few I have seen and know it is not on the agenda.
:04:24. > :04:29.Without a pact, it is perfectly possible that you could fail to win
:04:29. > :04:34.a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing
:04:34. > :04:46.Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are
:04:46. > :04:58.very clear marginals, just like Eddy Izzard was. I believe there could be
:04:58. > :05:02.an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If you take enough votes away from the
:05:02. > :05:07.Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment
:05:07. > :05:12.I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held
:05:12. > :05:17.seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going
:05:17. > :05:21.to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate
:05:21. > :05:23.with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly
:05:23. > :05:27.clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not
:05:27. > :05:31.support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big
:05:31. > :05:35.turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a
:05:35. > :05:39.pact, Diane James says there is not going to be one. There might be one
:05:39. > :05:43.or at a constituency level. But it seems clear to me that there will
:05:43. > :05:48.not be a national one. So, does David Cameron have a UKIP strategy?
:05:48. > :05:50.The only encouraging thing for UKIP's successful David Cameron is
:05:50. > :05:51.that their support is so enormous UKIP's successful David Cameron is
:05:51. > :05:55.that the moment that he would only UKIP's successful David Cameron is
:05:55. > :05:58.really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a
:05:58. > :06:02.decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The
:06:02. > :06:07.question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A poll
:06:07. > :06:11.last week suggested that 47% of current UKIP voters would consider
:06:11. > :06:15.voting Tory if it meant preventing Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister.
:06:15. > :06:18.That number goes up to 57% against the backdrop of an economic
:06:18. > :06:23.recovery. So, plausibly, there is quite a lot to play with. The
:06:23. > :06:27.secondary question is, what does David Cameron do to win over those
:06:27. > :06:30.people? He has tried a Europe will referendum and it didn't work. He
:06:31. > :06:34.tried travelling up his immigration policy and that didn't work. I
:06:34. > :06:39.wonder if it is time. You wait until the run-up to 2015, when they start
:06:39. > :06:44.to focus on the explicit choice between Ed Miliband and David
:06:44. > :06:48.Cameron, and that is what shifts a lot of UKIP support to David
:06:48. > :06:54.Cameron. We heard from William Hague earlier in the programme, the Tory
:06:54. > :06:57.line is that if you vote UKIP you could end up with Ed Miliband in
:06:57. > :07:01.Downing Street. That is the simple appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think
:07:01. > :07:07.Downing Street. That is the simple Diane is right, I think the European
:07:08. > :07:12.elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where
:07:12. > :07:16.you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited
:07:16. > :07:21.about that, I think that bounce will fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a
:07:21. > :07:28.good ground game, that is difficult for UKIP, that don't have that
:07:28. > :07:33.machinery sorted. How are they going to fund that operation? But the UKIP
:07:33. > :07:37.bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go
:07:37. > :07:40.down to 6% or 8% in a general election, they are still immensely
:07:40. > :07:45.dangerous to the Conservative Party. But there is really only two things
:07:45. > :07:49.David Cameron can do. One is to be boring and talk about helping people
:07:49. > :07:54.with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second
:07:54. > :07:57.thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative
:07:57. > :08:01.voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed
:08:01. > :08:05.Miliband us your prime and? The real danger with David Cameron is saying,
:08:05. > :08:07.of course, there is not going to be a pact, the danger is you will get a
:08:07. > :08:13.of course, there is not going to be repeat of the 1977 election. John
:08:13. > :08:17.Major said, famously, do not bind my hands. A series of Conservative
:08:17. > :08:22.candidates said they would personally rule out membership of
:08:22. > :08:25.the euro, when the Conservative membership was wait and see. That
:08:25. > :08:28.looked like a Prime Minister not in charge of his party. The danger is
:08:28. > :08:33.you will get a repeat of that amongst Conservative candidates.
:08:33. > :08:37.Let's assume you do really well in the European actions and there is a
:08:37. > :08:43.widespread expectation that you will, even in Downing Street. They
:08:43. > :08:45.might be managing expectations. What stops you fading away as the general
:08:45. > :08:49.might be managing expectations. What election approaches? A number of
:08:49. > :08:52.reasons. As has been mentioned, the whole issue of the referendum pledge
:08:52. > :08:59.has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if
:08:59. > :09:07.I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.
:09:07. > :09:08.That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is
:09:08. > :09:12.That was fooled nobody. The issue of because they have lost faith in what
:09:12. > :09:17.David Cameron says. There is nothing he is going to say that is convince
:09:17. > :09:21.them to give him another chance. I think that is my view and the view
:09:21. > :09:29.of a lot of UKIP. I am told that they have expunged Nigel Farage from
:09:29. > :09:33.the fringes? It is a great scoop, on the front page. They are outside the
:09:33. > :09:36.ring of steel. Even so, they won't include him in the conference
:09:36. > :09:41.programme, so they must be worried about something. His people have
:09:41. > :09:43.paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken
:09:43. > :09:48.out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken
:09:48. > :09:51.leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as a
:09:51. > :09:59.result of his Financial Times interview that he is now beginning
:09:59. > :10:01.his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad
:10:01. > :10:04.during the Syria debate that he was He does express feeling slightly sad
:10:04. > :10:10.not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do not
:10:10. > :10:16.see why it is in his interest is to move before 2015. No, I don't think
:10:16. > :10:22.he will move before, I think he is sending a signal to the existing
:10:22. > :10:32.Tories in the Commons that when Call Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has
:10:32. > :10:36.the Vince Cable problem, if you say the same thing too many times,
:10:36. > :10:40.people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying
:10:40. > :10:45.that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He
:10:45. > :10:48.might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is
:10:48. > :10:55.much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was
:10:55. > :10:59.asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,
:10:59. > :11:06.Augustus, the first and most important. I don't think you are
:11:06. > :11:12.thinking big enough. See what I have to put up with, every Sunday? By
:11:12. > :11:15.virtue of being born in the US, he could be president. Unlike Arnold
:11:15. > :11:25.Schwarzenegger. How about a deal with Boris? He has made no secret,
:11:25. > :11:29.after Eastleigh, that he would be open to a discussion. Let's call it
:11:29. > :11:34.no more than a discussion. He has been adamant, however, he does not
:11:34. > :11:36.see any reason, any justification or any opportunity where he would be
:11:36. > :11:42.able to have that discourse with any opportunity where he would be
:11:42. > :11:47.David Cameron. Maybe it comes down to that on both sides. I've no idea.
:11:47. > :11:52.We know that the Tories will be even more Eurosceptic after the next
:11:52. > :11:56.election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody
:11:56. > :12:00.that supports EU membership in principle. If you look at the
:12:00. > :12:05.ideological direction of the party. The leadership contest will be about
:12:05. > :12:08.2018. If you are standing, when David Cameron renegotiate our
:12:08. > :12:10.membership, are you going to say David Cameron renegotiate our
:12:10. > :12:13.this is a great deal for Britain David Cameron renegotiate our
:12:13. > :12:14.because the Prime Minister has turned to leave rapid change two
:12:14. > :12:17.words in the working Time directive, turned to leave rapid change two
:12:18. > :12:25.or are you going to become a leader by saying, I want out? What would be
:12:25. > :12:29.a good conference for David Cameron this week? A decent poll bounce. Ed
:12:29. > :12:34.Miliband have a good one. An eye-catching announcement related to
:12:34. > :12:37.living standards. May be a clearer line on energy prices? That would
:12:37. > :12:43.certainly help, that fightback has been rubbish so far. The thing we
:12:43. > :12:46.should be looking out for are not the polls immediately after, but the
:12:46. > :12:51.ones about the end of October, when everything gets to settle down and
:12:51. > :12:55.then we will see what happens. In a word, what is Nigel Farage out to
:12:55. > :13:02.get at the Tory conference? What is he doing, other than mischief? I
:13:02. > :13:06.could almost say revenge. Revenge on Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord
:13:06. > :13:11.Ashcroft was there at the Labour conference, let's put it into
:13:11. > :13:15.conference. You call it mischief, but there is every reason why he
:13:15. > :13:19.should be there. We all call it mischief. Thanks for being with us.
:13:19. > :13:25.Join me on Daily Politics for live coverage of the Conservative Party
:13:26. > :13:30.conference tomorrow morning from 11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring you
:13:30. > :13:33.George Osborne's speech live and uninterrupted. I'll be back next
:13:34. > :13:37.weekend when guests will include former Conservative Chancellor
:13:37. > :13:40.Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it is Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.