:00:39. > :00:48.Morning, welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this morning's
:00:48. > :00:53.Sunday Politics. We have Alastair Charmichael. We'll ask him what he
:00:53. > :00:58.has that his predecessor Michael Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps
:00:58. > :01:05.going on and on and on. He'll bang his drum for Europe.
:01:05. > :01:07.Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne
:01:07. > :01:09.will be with us. We'll ask him for the inside scoop.
:01:09. > :01:15.Later in the programme, we'll hear Diane
:01:15. > :01:18.Later in the programme, we'll hear Leanne Wood on what a Plaid Cymru
:01:18. > :01:20.Welsh government would do to cut energy bills and employ more doctors
:01:20. > :01:24.through a tax on sugary drinks. energy bills and employ more doctors
:01:24. > :01:31.says we've misunderstood the problem of human trafficking and that men
:01:31. > :01:37.are the forgotten victims. And with me, as always, three
:01:37. > :01:42.pundits who we try to shuffle out of a job but failed miserably, Mick
:01:42. > :01:46.watt, Miranda Green Andijan an Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if
:01:46. > :01:51.their lives depended on it throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:57.Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving to the left or right? Last week, a
:01:57. > :02:02.chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen a a shift to the lot of. Two have
:02:02. > :02:08.announced policy changes which could indicate he moved back to the
:02:08. > :02:11.middle. New shadows Work and Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves
:02:11. > :02:15.says Labour will be tougher on the Tories. While Tristram Hunt says
:02:15. > :02:19.Labour loves Tory-style free schools after all. Here he is on the BBC
:02:19. > :02:24.earlier this morning. I've one message for you and
:02:24. > :02:28.viewers. If you are a group of parents, social entrepreneurs,
:02:28. > :02:33.teachers, interested in setting up a school in areas where you need new
:02:33. > :02:37.school place, the Labour Government will be on your side. That's free
:02:37. > :02:39.schools. We are in favour of enterprise and innovation. It will
:02:39. > :02:43.schools. We are in favour of be in areas of need. We have a
:02:43. > :02:46.school places crisis going on. It will have properly qualified
:02:46. > :02:51.school places crisis going on. It teachers in these schools. And
:02:51. > :03:01.thirdly, systems of financial accountability. What is going on
:03:01. > :03:04.with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael
:03:04. > :03:10.Gove's policy. I'm not sure if the policies have
:03:10. > :03:14.changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and free
:03:14. > :03:17.schools. A significant change of tone. It was interesting the
:03:17. > :03:25.reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge
:03:25. > :03:32.of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.
:03:32. > :03:36.Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying
:03:36. > :03:43.Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip
:03:43. > :03:48.from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of
:03:48. > :03:53.need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,
:03:53. > :03:59.we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set
:03:59. > :04:04.these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,
:04:04. > :04:08.so far the debate has been polarised. You've had the Michael
:04:09. > :04:13.Gove uber reformers in the department. This weekend, we've had
:04:13. > :04:17.leaked memos from one of Michael Gove's advisers which are extreme
:04:17. > :04:23.views about the state of education. And on the other side teaching
:04:23. > :04:27.unions. It hasn't led to a healthy debate which represents what parents
:04:27. > :04:33.want out of schools or employers. This is a huge move from the Labour
:04:33. > :04:39.Party to sound more reasonable. They have been silent on education which
:04:39. > :04:47.is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?
:04:47. > :04:51.They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free
:04:51. > :04:56.schools for those who have them? You only apiece the focus groups by
:04:56. > :05:01.changing the policy substantially. I always thought a test for this
:05:01. > :05:06.Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed Miliband would promote Blair rights,
:05:06. > :05:11.it is clear he did, it is whether they would be allowed to be Blair
:05:11. > :05:15.rights. When Stephen Twigg carried the education portfolio it was clear
:05:15. > :05:20.his own views were closer to the Government than he was allowed to
:05:20. > :05:23.let on. He was constrained. There is no point of giving Tristram Hunt
:05:24. > :05:28.this job if he is not allowed to say what he thinks. I wouldn't mind
:05:28. > :05:34.betting privately he thinks free schools should be available beyond
:05:34. > :05:39.just areas of need. He hasn't yet defined need. It could be, we've run
:05:39. > :05:45.out of places or the existing schools are so bad we need schools.
:05:45. > :05:54.If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they
:05:54. > :06:00.are in schools rated as unsatisfactory that's no different.
:06:00. > :06:03.He wanted to say he was in favour of higher educational standards and
:06:03. > :06:08.rigour, he had to tell the audience he has a Cambridge PhD to attack
:06:08. > :06:13.Michael Gove. That was difficult for Tristram Hunt he had to mention
:06:13. > :06:24.that. Is that worth something, a PhD from Cambridge? Obviously to him it
:06:24. > :06:29.is. He said they would demand proper teaching qualifications. That could
:06:29. > :06:35.count him out. He does some teaching? Independent schools do not
:06:35. > :06:40.have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never
:06:40. > :06:49.been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow
:06:49. > :06:52.free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to
:06:52. > :06:57.say that. Watch this space. The dust settled
:06:57. > :07:05.after the party resufficients. Do the Tories look a bit more like
:07:05. > :07:12.Britain. Do the Tories look more like Labour? Here's guiles.
:07:12. > :07:17.#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,
:07:17. > :07:23.rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping
:07:23. > :07:28.beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in
:07:28. > :07:32.and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street with
:07:32. > :07:37.a smile on their face after going to see the boss. The once who are to be
:07:37. > :07:44.sacked, they usually go round the back. Not this time. No, something
:07:44. > :07:48.new alerted us all. The-PM started it. It was an extraordinary day. I
:07:48. > :07:52.can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties
:07:52. > :07:56.changing ministerial teams at the same time. The fact is that
:07:56. > :08:00.resufficient happened on Twitter. Not that the press stopped watching
:08:00. > :08:06.the door as well. News was a bit slow in coming until Alastair
:08:06. > :08:11.Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm
:08:11. > :08:16.disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been
:08:16. > :08:19.able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one
:08:19. > :08:29.imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and
:08:29. > :08:36.on... And on... And on! #4 The welcomer, who was
:08:36. > :08:43.simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of
:08:43. > :08:47.the Home Office in conspiracy to let Norman Baker sing a tune.
:08:47. > :08:52.the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic
:08:52. > :08:59.cone... # #. The brutality of the Liberal
:08:59. > :09:03.Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet
:09:03. > :09:08.Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory
:09:08. > :09:12.ranks were shifting too. The PM keen to boost the numbers of telegenic
:09:12. > :09:15.women walking into Government and turning perceptions around. He
:09:15. > :09:21.tipped a so-called flatcap to men from the north or more humble
:09:21. > :09:24.backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends
:09:25. > :09:31.of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers were
:09:31. > :09:36.learning of Labour's changes. Labour too knows the value of new young
:09:36. > :09:43.blood striding into the limelight. Again some with TV experience of
:09:43. > :09:46.that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de peer row would be hard to describe
:09:47. > :09:53.as hard left. But Blairbrushing the past out of the picture seemed to be
:09:53. > :09:56.the name of the day. Liam Byrne moved from higher profile roles.
:09:57. > :10:01.With Diane Abbott also gone, was this really a Blair right cull? It
:10:01. > :10:05.depends what you mean. Blair right used to mean someone who wanted Tony
:10:05. > :10:08.Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely
:10:08. > :10:12.with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set
:10:12. > :10:17.of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair
:10:17. > :10:21.rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair
:10:21. > :10:28.are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was
:10:28. > :10:33.over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted
:10:33. > :10:42.ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one
:10:42. > :10:46.angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.
:10:46. > :10:49.Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone
:10:49. > :10:55.standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get
:10:55. > :11:03.someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!
:11:03. > :11:09.And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins
:11:09. > :11:16.us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used
:11:16. > :11:21.in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm
:11:21. > :11:29.hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That
:11:29. > :11:34.you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not
:11:34. > :11:38.so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can
:11:38. > :11:43.hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.
:11:43. > :11:49.Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department
:11:49. > :11:53.you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of
:11:53. > :11:58.the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure
:11:58. > :12:04.that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about
:12:04. > :12:09.the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of
:12:09. > :12:13.Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is
:12:13. > :12:18.true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a
:12:18. > :12:22.real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?
:12:22. > :12:27.Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did
:12:27. > :12:33.delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,
:12:33. > :12:39.clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to
:12:39. > :12:43.the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not
:12:43. > :12:49.comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as
:12:49. > :12:53.we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I
:12:53. > :12:59.will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to
:12:59. > :13:05.remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about
:13:05. > :13:09.nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,
:13:09. > :13:14.their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot
:13:14. > :13:21.more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if
:13:21. > :13:28.you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --
:13:28. > :13:34.poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing
:13:34. > :13:36.pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to
:13:37. > :13:44.save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the
:13:44. > :13:47.situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think
:13:47. > :13:51.anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people
:13:51. > :13:55.who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out
:13:55. > :14:00.next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for
:14:00. > :14:05.that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own
:14:05. > :14:12.party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You
:14:13. > :14:19.were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in
:14:19. > :14:23.fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the
:14:23. > :14:26.Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for
:14:26. > :14:30.everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for
:14:30. > :14:35.a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could
:14:35. > :14:40.have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and
:14:40. > :14:45.for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in
:14:45. > :14:48.British politics for the last three-and-a-half years, Liberal
:14:48. > :14:52.Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition Government. I would not have
:14:52. > :14:55.survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I
:14:55. > :15:00.was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.
:15:00. > :15:05.So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.
:15:05. > :15:07.As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also of
:15:07. > :15:12.the referendum vote, opinion polls in the polls, this is true also of
:15:12. > :15:15.are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in
:15:15. > :15:20.the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next
:15:21. > :15:25.election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I
:15:25. > :15:30.really want to be guarding against is the complacency which says
:15:30. > :15:35.because we are a good margin ahead today, 12 months out from the actual
:15:35. > :15:43.polling day, that it is in the bag. Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As
:15:43. > :15:46.you know, wasn't for the Liberal Democrats. Not just talking about
:15:46. > :15:50.the polls. You came fourth in the real poll in the Scottish
:15:50. > :15:56.Parliamentary elections. You said you were happy to facial
:15:56. > :16:07.ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should David Cameron face him? I am happy
:16:07. > :16:16.to face anybody who wants to debate. Should David Cameron face
:16:16. > :16:18.him? No, because that allows Alex Salmond and the Scottish
:16:18. > :16:23.Nationalists to portray this as some sort of contest or choice between a
:16:23. > :16:28.vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it
:16:28. > :16:36.is not. This is a debate that has to be held in Scotland about the future
:16:36. > :16:41.of Scotland amongst Scots. David Cameron has a very important part in
:16:41. > :16:45.Scotland's public life, but he is not Scottish and I think he will
:16:45. > :16:49.accept Commies edit himself in fact, the person who should be debating
:16:49. > :16:56.with Alex Salmond is Alistair Darling. He has got a Scottish name
:16:56. > :17:03.and his family hails from the wealthiest of Scotland at some stage
:17:03. > :17:09.in the past. Anyway, you described the campaign to keep the union
:17:09. > :17:13.together as lacking passion, were you referring to the campaign or
:17:13. > :17:18.Alistair Darling? I was not referring to Alistair Darling. I
:17:18. > :17:24.think what I was saying is that as referring to Alistair Darling. I
:17:24. > :17:32.we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we
:17:32. > :17:38.are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the
:17:38. > :17:43.range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the
:17:43. > :17:54.arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle
:17:54. > :17:58.for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as
:17:58. > :18:04.somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to
:18:04. > :18:10.remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight
:18:10. > :18:15.distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single
:18:15. > :18:22.celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not
:18:22. > :18:28.supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st
:18:28. > :18:31.of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if
:18:31. > :18:37.anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is
:18:37. > :18:46.worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister
:18:46. > :18:51.who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken
:18:51. > :18:56.Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,
:18:56. > :19:04.more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I
:19:04. > :19:10.would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is
:19:10. > :19:14.difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have
:19:14. > :19:20.a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.
:19:20. > :19:25.I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have
:19:25. > :19:31.survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this
:19:31. > :19:38.reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,
:19:38. > :19:48.asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my
:19:48. > :19:52.role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings
:19:52. > :19:57.of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.
:19:57. > :20:04.You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do
:20:04. > :20:08.you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a
:20:08. > :20:14.political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of
:20:14. > :20:18.politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good
:20:18. > :20:21.governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems
:20:21. > :20:27.is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very
:20:27. > :20:31.difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every
:20:31. > :20:36.decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a
:20:36. > :20:41.bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my
:20:41. > :20:44.experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the
:20:44. > :20:51.Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on
:20:51. > :20:57.Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain
:20:57. > :21:04.adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda
:21:04. > :21:08.on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people
:21:08. > :21:11.accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of
:21:11. > :21:16.decisions they take as representatives, but this is a
:21:16. > :21:20.generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have
:21:20. > :21:23.firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of
:21:24. > :21:26.firmly decided a referendum needs to Britain's relationship with the
:21:26. > :21:30.European Union which I think is one of the most important things in
:21:30. > :21:33.politics. It will determine Britain's place in the modern world
:21:34. > :21:39.and determine whether our politicians are able to look after
:21:39. > :21:42.the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last
:21:42. > :21:50.the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme
:21:50. > :21:55.nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party
:21:55. > :22:01.must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are
:22:01. > :22:06.desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to
:22:06. > :22:09.leave the European Union. The referendum will involve the public
:22:09. > :22:15.and people like me have got to get across to the public, don't just
:22:15. > :22:20.feel angry about the last thing you read in the newspaper about what the
:22:20. > :22:25.commission is or is not doing, do bear in mind this is our base in the
:22:25. > :22:32.modern world. We happen to be a leading member, almost as valuable
:22:32. > :22:36.and rich as the Americans, from there we can have a greater
:22:36. > :22:40.influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on the
:22:40. > :22:45.world stage, it is how the politicians look after us when we
:22:45. > :22:50.face danger from terrorism is spilling over from the Middle East,
:22:50. > :22:57.or we face public services being threatened. You didn't even turn up
:22:57. > :23:01.to vote for the bill which will give us a referendum. I had other
:23:01. > :23:06.engagements on the Friday concerned. It seemed to get through without my
:23:06. > :23:13.participation. You didn't want to be seen voting for something your heart
:23:13. > :23:17.is not in. Let's be honest here. Look, many of your colleagues I have
:23:17. > :23:27.interviewed say that if the choice was between the state -- the status
:23:27. > :23:32.quo with the European Union and leaving, they would leave. The truth
:23:32. > :23:40.is that you would vote to stay in even on the status quo, wouldn't
:23:40. > :23:44.you? I haven't spent so long supporting the EU to leave now if I
:23:44. > :23:50.got chance. I think our economy is much stronger than it would have
:23:50. > :23:53.been if we were outside the EU. We have continued attracting
:23:53. > :24:02.investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward
:24:02. > :24:06.the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that we
:24:06. > :24:10.are not likely to leave the EU to make sure they will invest here.
:24:10. > :24:18.That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is
:24:18. > :24:24.echoed in other countries, particularly Germany, is a good one.
:24:24. > :24:29.Even if David Cameron came back with nothing from Brussels, you would
:24:29. > :24:35.still vote to stay in, correct? Going off to be a small economy, and
:24:35. > :24:40.one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it
:24:40. > :24:44.would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the
:24:44. > :24:48.dangers of some of the countries between EU and Russia are
:24:48. > :24:54.considerable, we shouldn't disengage. I will take that as a
:24:54. > :24:57.yes. I do think reform can strengthen the case, and of some
:24:57. > :25:01.members of the public don't agree with me, I trust they will be
:25:01. > :25:07.persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives
:25:07. > :25:11.Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a
:25:11. > :25:14.ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and
:25:14. > :25:20.ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the
:25:20. > :25:25.Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong
:25:25. > :25:31.Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced
:25:31. > :25:37.terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in
:25:37. > :25:41.the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I
:25:41. > :25:45.have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you
:25:45. > :25:50.get an election, people have to ask themselves who do we want to decide
:25:50. > :25:55.the issues of war and peace in this country? Who do we want to get us
:25:55. > :26:01.out of our economic problems. I don't think Ed Miliband is up to it.
:26:01. > :26:09.That generalised stuff will not see off UKIP. People will not listen to
:26:09. > :26:12.that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed they
:26:12. > :26:19.are by something that has recently upset them, but people are more
:26:19. > :26:26.sensible than this. Every Government I have served in has been behind in
:26:26. > :26:30.the polls. At a general election you have to mobilise the public to start
:26:30. > :26:39.thinking, who do we want to govern us? They did take over a calamitous
:26:39. > :26:46.situation, and there are very important problems to be decided
:26:46. > :26:50.going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,
:26:50. > :27:00.anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the
:27:00. > :27:10.opinion -- the polls in any election.
:27:10. > :27:26.Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in
:27:26. > :27:30.disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit more
:27:30. > :27:33.time tending the tulips and doing the odd bit of charity work. Not
:27:33. > :27:36.Chris Huhne. He walked free from prison only five months ago but the
:27:36. > :27:40.former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in
:27:40. > :27:43.the Guardian, a job with a renewable energy firm, even the odd TV
:27:43. > :27:45.interview. So is he working on a political rehabilitation? Chris
:27:45. > :27:48.Huhne, welcome to the Sunday Politics. The answer to that is
:27:48. > :27:50.clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your
:27:51. > :27:56.career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I am
:27:56. > :28:00.happy doing what I am doing, I am passionate about green energy and
:28:00. > :28:06.climate change, so I am doing things on that front in terms of business
:28:06. > :28:10.and work for think tanks and non-governmental organisations, and
:28:10. > :28:14.I am doing a column for the Guardian on Mondays. You obviously get a lot
:28:15. > :28:21.of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on
:28:21. > :28:23.political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of the
:28:23. > :28:28.political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he
:28:28. > :28:32.said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had
:28:32. > :28:34.not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like
:28:34. > :28:39.not offended for ten years, it was you, Andrew, Ron doing the same
:28:39. > :28:46.thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why the
:28:46. > :28:49.prosecution was brought. I had not offended for ten years on this,
:28:49. > :28:56.either in terms of speeding points... But you are out to
:28:56. > :29:17.rehabilitate yourself in the public? I have been a journalist,
:29:17. > :29:21.rehabilitate yourself in the public? coalition to the bitter end? Or
:29:21. > :29:24.should they re-establish their own identity? My view is that the
:29:24. > :29:31.Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are
:29:31. > :29:37.going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib
:29:37. > :29:41.Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15 seats? I think it will be an
:29:41. > :29:47.interesting election because I think you will have essentially three
:29:47. > :29:50.party leaders, all of whom are unpopular. It is almost
:29:50. > :29:55.unprecedented that they have negative ratings so it will be a
:29:55. > :30:02.battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,
:30:02. > :30:11.the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't
:30:11. > :30:15.you? It is far too early to say. If the Liberal Democrats do badly in
:30:16. > :30:21.next year's European elections, you could come fourth on fifth behind
:30:21. > :30:27.the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's leadership be in jeopardy? I've been
:30:27. > :30:33.in countless cycles where we've had very low poll ratings. The normal
:30:33. > :30:38.pickup to the subsequent general election on average has been 10
:30:38. > :30:42.percentage points. So he's not in jeopardy? I think Nick will be there
:30:42. > :30:46.at the next general election. I think he'll lead the party into the
:30:46. > :30:52.next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most
:30:52. > :30:55.people think. If we are heading for another hung Parliament, which is
:30:55. > :31:00.what the Liberal Democrats want. Let's be honest, you'd rather be in
:31:00. > :31:04.coalition with the Labour Party than have a repeat of the Conservatives?
:31:04. > :31:08.One of the key things I sawed to colleagues, whatever your personal
:31:08. > :31:13.preference, I used to be a Labour Party member, you can derive from
:31:13. > :31:19.that I'm on the left of centre of the party. I always said to my
:31:20. > :31:20.colleagues in the party, it is absolutely
:31:20. > :31:23.colleagues in the party, it is the we are in politics because we
:31:23. > :31:26.are Liberal Democrats, not because we are either Conservatives or
:31:26. > :31:32.second best Labour. If you don't take that view, you don't have any
:31:32. > :31:36.bargaining position when it comes to coalition. You have to be able,
:31:36. > :31:40.genuinely, to do a coalition with either of the other parties. I
:31:40. > :31:45.understand that, but you'd prefer Labour? Your personal preference
:31:45. > :31:48.really should not come into this. It is about making sure you get the
:31:48. > :31:54.best possible deal for the things that your voters have voted for. If
:31:54. > :31:59.you get that with one party rather than another, that's fine. You stand
:31:59. > :32:03.up for Liberal Democrat values, not for Conservative or Labour second
:32:03. > :32:09.best values. You said you're keeping up your interest in energy matters.
:32:09. > :32:15.Is Ed Miliband right to promise a temporary price freeze? There's been
:32:15. > :32:21.pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a sensible policy. It was tried in
:32:21. > :32:27.California in 2,000 and 2001 which led to blackouts. We had the Prime
:32:27. > :32:31.Minister promising we should sift everybody automatically to the
:32:31. > :32:36.lowest possible tariff. So unfortunately we're at the stage in
:32:36. > :32:42.the political cycle where we are getting clap trap. You're against
:32:42. > :32:46.the freeze? It is a bad idea when we are trying to encourage investment.
:32:46. > :32:49.When the market can give us some of the lowest gas and electricity
:32:49. > :32:51.prices in Europe. Britain has son-in-law of the lowest? Not our
:32:51. > :32:55.prices in Europe. Britain has base price? The other European Ian
:32:55. > :32:59.prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our
:32:59. > :33:05.base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look
:33:05. > :33:07.at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after
:33:07. > :33:11.all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after
:33:11. > :33:15.. The Conservatives are claiming there are
:33:15. > :33:32.people. Why not cut some of these taxes and make
:33:32. > :33:35.people. Why not cut some of these nones sense. It is coming
:33:35. > :33:35.people. Why not cut some of these people like George Osborne who
:33:35. > :33:45.people. Why not cut some of these should no better. One the-hip ok
:33:45. > :33:46.people. Why not cut some of these about this is one person who added
:33:46. > :33:49.green taxes is George Osborne with the carbon floor, You supported
:33:49. > :33:52.green taxes is George Osborne with that? We put it into the coalition
:33:52. > :33:54.green taxes is George Osborne with agreement because the Conservatives
:33:54. > :33:57.green taxes is George Osborne with not want it. We do not need it to
:33:57. > :34:01.drive decarbonisation of the not want it. We do not need it to
:34:01. > :34:06.electricity system. It was a revenue raising measure by the Tories. It
:34:06. > :34:11.set off a whole load of hairs about green taxes which are now coming
:34:11. > :34:17.home to roost. Final point to you, wish we'd more time to talk, you're
:34:17. > :34:21.a big supporter of Leveson-style press regulation. Will you stop
:34:21. > :34:26.writing for The Guardian if it refuses to sign up to the Leveson
:34:26. > :34:31.charter? I think that's neither here nor there. The Guardian gives me a
:34:31. > :34:37.great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in will you
:34:37. > :34:42.support it? No because I'm sure they'll allow me to make that that
:34:42. > :34:46.point. I think newspapers will sign up for it. They've had a collapse in
:34:46. > :34:51.public trust and confidence in recent years. Unparalleled. They
:34:51. > :34:55.need a third party endorsement to say these guys have cleaned up their
:34:55. > :34:59.act. If they are going to get trust back and they will. When they
:34:59. > :35:01.haven't signed up, which they won't, you can come back and we'll talk
:35:01. > :35:07.about it. You're watching the Sunday politics.
:35:08. > :35:18.Coming up in about 20 minutes, we'll talk
:35:18. > :35:22.Do Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.
:35:22. > :35:26.We'll hear from Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood on her policies on lower
:35:26. > :35:28.energy bills and a tax on sugary drinks.
:35:28. > :35:31.And former Labour Foreign Secretary Jack Straw tells me his grave
:35:31. > :35:34.concerns over the Guardian newspaper's publication of leaked
:35:34. > :35:37.surveillance information. Joining me throughout today's
:35:37. > :35:44.programme are the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood and the Liberal Democrat
:35:44. > :35:48.AM William Powell. I'm sure both of you will have heard
:35:48. > :35:56.the First Minister speaking on our sister programme criticising the UK
:35:56. > :36:02.Government for lack of response on this old recommendations on future
:36:02. > :36:06.funding of the assembly. He is very strong terms, Wales would be at a
:36:06. > :36:08.competitive disadvantage and it would be a disaster if these
:36:08. > :36:14.recommendations are brought forward. What is your response? To
:36:14. > :36:18.be honest, I've got a lot of sympathy with what was said. I was
:36:18. > :36:22.pleased to hear him say quite clearly that he recognises the
:36:22. > :36:27.contribution Lib Dem ministers within the coalition are doing to
:36:27. > :36:32.try to promote this, because the kind of hiatus we got at the moment
:36:32. > :36:37.is extremely unhelpful for business confidence. I'm very hopeful that
:36:37. > :36:40.the appointment of Alistair Carmichael as Scottish Secretary may
:36:41. > :36:46.help to give additional impetus to what we can do that, because it's
:36:46. > :36:50.currently not acceptable. Leanne, does this suggest to you that the
:36:50. > :36:55.tide is changing and that we're not going to see legislation from the UK
:36:55. > :37:01.Government this side of the general election? Well, if that happens, it
:37:01. > :37:08.will be a disaster. We've got grave problems in the Welsh economy. We
:37:08. > :37:13.need the tools to turn around. The Labour government are taking a pick
:37:13. > :37:16.and mix approach to the sub commission recommendations. They are
:37:16. > :37:22.meant to be implemented in full and really without delay. So it is
:37:22. > :37:26.incumbent upon the Welsh government to put forward that case in the
:37:26. > :37:31.strongest possible terms, not just for some taxes, for the whole
:37:31. > :37:35.package as proposed by the subcommission. You won't convinced
:37:35. > :37:42.that that is what Colin Jones wants this morning? No, he avoided the
:37:42. > :37:46.question about Labour commitments in the 2015 manifesto and he's avoided
:37:46. > :37:50.that question with me a number of times. You've been working with the
:37:50. > :37:54.Lib Dems this week, you will be pleased that Nick Clegg essentially
:37:54. > :37:59.blamed the Conservatives for not implementing this sooner. They're
:37:59. > :38:03.going to need to sort that out among themselves in London. If the Lib
:38:03. > :38:08.Dems can't get things through them they need to consider their own
:38:08. > :38:14.position in terms of the influence they got. I would say it's a problem
:38:14. > :38:18.for them. This possibly highlights the Lib Dems situation in the
:38:18. > :38:24.coalition as a whole, unable to have too much of an impact over the
:38:24. > :38:28.Conservatives. I think conservatives -- coalitions are always problematic
:38:28. > :38:32.and we don't have a tradition of coalitions in this country. Many
:38:32. > :38:35.successful coalitions in Europe have a strong tradition of parties coming
:38:35. > :38:43.together and working in the national interest. I think that is what we
:38:43. > :38:49.trying to do and we succeeding in many areas. In others, it is not as
:38:49. > :38:54.great as we would wish it to be. Perhaps they could take an example
:38:54. > :38:57.from the Wales government, which was an effective partnership approach as
:38:57. > :39:04.opposed to one big party and a smaller one. We may come onto that
:39:04. > :39:07.later. For the time being, we will leave it there.
:39:07. > :39:09.The conference season for Welsh politicians drew to a close
:39:10. > :39:12.yesterday when Plaid Cymru wrapped up their autumn gathering in
:39:12. > :39:15.Aberystwyth. Leanne Wood grabbed to headlines with pledges to cut energy
:39:15. > :39:19.bills and employ 1,000 doctors through a tax on sugary drinks. I'll
:39:19. > :39:22.explore some of those policies with the party leader in a moment, but
:39:22. > :39:28.first here's our political editor Nick Servini's thoughts on the
:39:28. > :39:34.conference. Plaid Cymru wants to take Wales from
:39:34. > :39:39.the bottom to the top. Putting Wales first four is is not just a
:39:39. > :39:45.statement of our priorities, it is a statement of our ambition. It is now
:39:45. > :39:58.time to turn that historic ambition into this, our new reality. It's a
:39:58. > :40:02.long time to go before the next assembly elections. So it was by
:40:02. > :40:07.common consent a lot of surprise that in Leanne Wood's speech there
:40:07. > :40:12.were a lot of policy announcements. The main one is a not-for-profit
:40:12. > :40:16.organisation that would buy gas and electricity at wholesale prices and
:40:16. > :40:20.sell them on to Welsh consumers at lower prices. It is feasible, it's
:40:20. > :40:24.been done in other areas, and it certainly taps into the concern many
:40:24. > :40:30.have about the price of their gas and electricity bills. People in
:40:30. > :40:35.Wales pay more for their electricity than customers in England and
:40:35. > :40:39.Scotland. How is that fair? It isn't. Our country produces more
:40:39. > :40:46.electricity than it uses, but we are powerless. The other policy is a
:40:46. > :40:50.levy on sugary drinks. On this one, they are on less sure ground. It
:40:50. > :40:54.would need a change to the taxation system and I think it leads the
:40:54. > :40:58.party open to accusations that, at a time when there is fundamental
:40:58. > :41:04.change going on in the NHS, this gives the impression of being a bit
:41:04. > :41:10.of a gimmick. The Welsh government I will lead will introduce a sugary
:41:10. > :41:14.drinks levy of up to 20p per litre. We will employ 1000 more doctors
:41:14. > :41:19.with the money raised, bringing Wales up to the UK average and
:41:19. > :41:28.reducing the need to take services further away from people. It was
:41:28. > :41:31.quite a left-wing speech, appealing to the socialist credentials of
:41:31. > :41:36.Leanne Wood. It is obviously gone down well at the conference. The big
:41:36. > :41:42.question - will levy support outside the core voters of the party?
:41:42. > :41:48.Nobody will argue with cheaper energy prices. From a political
:41:48. > :41:52.point of view, there is no election the 2.5 years. Have you perhaps
:41:52. > :42:00.jumped the gun introducing this so early? We wanted to communicate at
:42:00. > :42:03.the kind of government people in Wales could have following a
:42:03. > :42:09.successful Plaid Cymru victory in 2016. A range of policies I
:42:09. > :42:13.announced in that speech start to build a picture of what that
:42:13. > :42:18.government will look like. I think what we want to leave the impression
:42:18. > :42:23.with people is that we've got bold ideas, exciting ideas, and a lot of
:42:23. > :42:30.plans of things that we could do to turn around the Welsh economy, which
:42:30. > :42:35.I've said is my top priority. I heard you speaking on the radio this
:42:35. > :42:41.morning, essentially saying that energy companies taking big profits
:42:41. > :42:44.from customers in Wales and elsewhere, is this about bashing
:42:44. > :42:52.them and clamping down on profit as if it is a dirty world -- word?
:42:52. > :42:56.Well, the profits of the big six have risen massively and it is
:42:56. > :43:00.people that about a paper that out of their pockets. We all know the
:43:00. > :43:05.cost of living is rising far faster than wages and incomes. The ability
:43:05. > :43:10.for people to make ends meet is decreasing on an ongoing basis. How
:43:10. > :43:14.much will people save? They will save, will they? They will, because
:43:14. > :43:23.you are removing that profit element. The profit per household is
:43:23. > :43:28.not extreme. I think any £1000 bill the profits might only be £50 to the
:43:28. > :43:34.energy companies. The overall profits of the energy companies are
:43:34. > :43:39.very substantial and what we can do with an -- with a Welsh energy
:43:39. > :43:47.company isn't arm's-length company like the model set up for Welsh
:43:47. > :43:50.water could bulk buy electricity and sell it on to businesses and
:43:50. > :43:56.consumers for cheaper, reducing bills quite substantially, we think.
:43:56. > :44:07.The other point of course is the VAT on fuel could be kept low. Sugary
:44:07. > :44:12.drinks tax, Nick suggesting it could be seen as a gimmick. Essentially,
:44:12. > :44:18.the money this could raise you say would pay for 1000 doctors. I've
:44:18. > :44:21.seen recently a lot of discussion as to where those 1000 doctors would
:44:22. > :44:26.come from. On the radio this morning, you said maybe it is not
:44:26. > :44:32.entirely possible we could get 1000 doctors. We have to accept that have
:44:32. > :44:38.been difficulties in recruitment throughout the NHS. But Plaid Cymru
:44:38. > :44:41.would argue not enough effort has gone into recruiting doctors and
:44:41. > :44:46.much more effort could be made, and the small example is that we've seen
:44:46. > :44:49.where health boards have gone to other countries to recruit doctors,
:44:49. > :44:53.that has been an element of success. So were confident they
:44:53. > :44:58.could be some recruitment on a temporary basis, but over the long
:44:58. > :45:05.were going to need to train our doctors here and introduce
:45:05. > :45:08.incentives to keep them here. There are examples from countries like New
:45:08. > :45:14.Zealand where you can pay tuition fees in order to enable doctors to
:45:14. > :45:18.remain. What is the main motivation? Is it getting an easy
:45:18. > :45:26.headline with the sugary drinks idea, which then masks the bigger
:45:26. > :45:32.issue of recruiting more doctors? The policy is twofold. The main
:45:32. > :45:39.reason we want to introduce it is to tackle the obesity at the Deming,
:45:39. > :45:43.which is a big problem in Wales. -- obesity epidemic. We want to reduce
:45:43. > :45:47.consumption of sugary drinks and that would be a fantastic outcome
:45:47. > :45:52.for this policy. If it does raise some money, that could go towards
:45:52. > :45:57.the recruitment of additional money -- doctors, but if it doesn't, we
:45:57. > :46:02.can find the money elsewhere in the budget. We've just agreed a deal
:46:02. > :46:08.with the Lib Dems for £100 million. These doctors would cost between 50
:46:08. > :46:16.and £60 million. So were confident one way or another we can achieve
:46:16. > :46:24.it. Now, let's talk about the future if you both become one coalition
:46:24. > :46:27.party in the future. These are the main policies going into Plaid Cymru
:46:27. > :46:31.for the main election. You need to work together if there is to be a
:46:31. > :46:38.coalition. What do you make of these announcements? Well, potentially
:46:38. > :46:46.there is a lot of merit. Certainly, my party has been very supportive of
:46:46. > :46:54.the Welsh water model, and recently I've taken apart in the energy and
:46:54. > :46:59.sustainability committee looking at the whole structure of the water
:46:59. > :47:02.industry in Wales, and we've seen the merit that that has.
:47:02. > :47:09.Potentially, this could translate to something which would be a benefit
:47:09. > :47:12.to families across Wales. But the detail needs to be worked up and we
:47:12. > :47:17.need to see that before we can be confident that it is the way
:47:17. > :47:23.forward. But I certainly think we should give the proposals a chance,
:47:23. > :47:29.I want to hear more. As a liberal, sugary drinks, where do you stand on
:47:29. > :47:31.that one? I think that proposal is more problematic, there are
:47:31. > :47:41.significant issues regarding whether or not such attacks would actually
:47:41. > :47:50.be feasible and deliverable. -- such a tax. I'm not even convinced that
:47:50. > :47:54.as it currently stands the legislation would enable attacks on
:47:54. > :48:01.sugary drinks to come forward. There is a suggestion within the
:48:01. > :48:05.recommendations, page 77, I think you mentioned it. You'd think it is
:48:05. > :48:09.possible or you would not have suggested it. The sub commission
:48:09. > :48:12.says there is this possibility to introduce innovative taxes and they
:48:12. > :48:21.gave the sugary drinks levy is one example of those taxes. What else? A
:48:21. > :48:27.chocolate tax? Well, I wouldn't rule out taxing junk food. What I would
:48:27. > :48:34.want to do with any additional monies raised from that is to ensure
:48:34. > :48:39.that good quality wholesome food can be provided cheaper and everywhere
:48:39. > :48:43.the people, because that is a big problem at the moment. It's a crazy
:48:43. > :48:47.situation that you can buy poor quality food, food that is bad for
:48:47. > :48:51.you and more likely to make you abuse, then you can good quality
:48:51. > :48:57.food in many parts of Wales. That is a ridiculous situation. So you're
:48:57. > :49:02.not ruling out the possibility that any Plaid Cymru party in the future
:49:02. > :49:07.could put a tax on our burgers? Every government everywhere uses
:49:07. > :49:15.taxes to incentivise and dis- incentivise behaviour. So I do think
:49:15. > :49:18.something needs to be done about the proliferation of fast food in our
:49:18. > :49:24.communities. There are far too many outlets. It is too easy and too
:49:24. > :49:32.cheap. I may have given you an insight into my diet! A sharp take
:49:32. > :49:39.of -- a sharp intake of breath that from you. Well, there is certainly
:49:39. > :49:46.merit in looking into a raft of proposals to improve diet. The
:49:46. > :49:52.committee last year was looking at a petition to create a kind of cord
:49:52. > :50:07.and around all schools to ban take aways. -- a cordon around schools.
:50:07. > :50:10.Now, a visit to garden by the former Labour Cabinet minister Jack Straw.
:50:10. > :50:14.He was in the capital to give a speech.
:50:15. > :50:19.I met up with him in the capital and he told me he had not expected
:50:19. > :50:24.parliament to vote against supporting military action against
:50:24. > :50:28.Syria back in August. All of us were surprised that there was such
:50:28. > :50:34.strength of feeling. We know about it from our side, but on the other
:50:34. > :50:38.side as well. It has had a remarkable, beneficial impact. First
:50:38. > :50:44.of all, contrary to the idea that the UK is aways in poodle for the
:50:44. > :50:51.US, what it triggered was the reverse. What we did really took the
:50:51. > :50:58.lead of public opinion in the US. President Obama was generous enough
:50:58. > :51:01.to admit that if the British Parliament had had second thoughts
:51:01. > :51:05.about this, he was going to have to put it to Congress, and it turned
:51:05. > :51:11.out that if he did put it to Congress, he would lose the vote.
:51:11. > :51:16.That then is the way for improved relations with the Russians. Always
:51:16. > :51:21.been crucial here. And in turn, it leads the way for private diplomacy
:51:21. > :51:26.with the Iranians. I also asked Mr Straw what he made of comments made
:51:26. > :51:32.by Andrew Parker, the head of MI5, he suggested published information
:51:32. > :51:39.linked to the Guardian newspaper was helping terrorists. I think the head
:51:39. > :51:44.of the Security service has been absolutely right to say what he
:51:44. > :51:51.said. I regret what I can only decide that might describe as
:51:51. > :51:56.indulgent irresponsibility by the Guardian. You can always justify
:51:56. > :52:00.anything if you are a newspaper on the grounds of open journalism. But
:52:00. > :52:06.this is about much more than that. It is about how we protect the
:52:06. > :52:10.national interest. That is not just about protecting the establishment,
:52:10. > :52:17.it is about keeping people safe, avoiding any other 7th of July 2005.
:52:17. > :52:22.It risked lives then, you think? Well, I'm not suggesting anybody at
:52:22. > :52:30.the Guardian gratuitously one * anyone's life. But I do think their
:52:30. > :52:35.sense of power at having these secrets and their excitement has
:52:35. > :52:41.gone to the head. They are blinding themselves about the consequences.
:52:41. > :52:44.And also showing an extraordinary naivete and arrogance in implying
:52:44. > :52:50.that they are in a position to judge whether or not particularly secrets
:52:50. > :52:53.which they publish are likely to damage the national interest or not.
:52:53. > :52:59.They are not in any position at all to do that. William Powell, those
:52:59. > :53:05.are his views. Your party is in government, two of those ministers
:53:05. > :53:10.have disagreed. Vince Cable not so much. Where do you stand? I think
:53:10. > :53:14.Vince and Nick have both taken the position that we need to get more
:53:14. > :53:18.clarity and oversight over our security services and I think that
:53:18. > :53:23.is really important. That is a view that was taken up on Friday night by
:53:23. > :53:28.Hillary Clinton when she spoke at Chatham house. To be frank, I'm not
:53:28. > :53:33.very interested in being lectured by Jack Straw on Civil Liberties and
:53:33. > :53:37.related matters. And indeed national security matters, given his part
:53:37. > :53:42.less than a decade ago in leading us into an illegal war that is done
:53:42. > :53:46.more to harm the national security of this country than anything
:53:46. > :53:51.related to the Snowdon revelations. I really find that less than
:53:51. > :53:54.interesting and I think we need to appreciate what the Guardian has
:53:54. > :53:59.done. I do agree with Vince Cable that it has actually carried out an
:53:59. > :54:04.important public service in making these revelations. Jack Straw also
:54:04. > :54:08.spoke about Syria. There was a section in your speech on Friday
:54:08. > :54:15.where you were claiming that Plaid Cymru and others tipped the balance.
:54:15. > :54:21.Yes, it was as the SNP votes that were in that moment the decisive
:54:21. > :54:30.factors between and peace. I'm very proud of the role that our team
:54:30. > :54:34.played in that. The reverberations have rung around the world sense
:54:34. > :54:38.from Washington to Tehran. We could be in a much more difficult
:54:38. > :54:45.situation now, potentially a world War three situation, had backed law
:54:45. > :54:55.not gone the way it did. Now, time for a round-up of the news
:54:55. > :54:59.in 60 seconds. Shadow rural affairs Minister
:54:59. > :55:04.Antoinette Sandbach called wide ban on the sale of sky lanterns. She
:55:04. > :55:09.said they posed a risk to farm animals and wildlife.
:55:09. > :55:14.The Welsh government bails -- favours local authorities having a
:55:14. > :55:17.ban. The leader of a Council said
:55:17. > :55:21.hundreds of jobs could be lost at the local authority as a result of
:55:21. > :55:25.the Welsh government's draft budget. The Welsh government said it had
:55:25. > :55:28.commissioned the impact of UK Government cuts in the last three
:55:28. > :55:32.years. The finance minister said funding would be cut by almost 6%
:55:32. > :55:38.next year. Some councils could go bust because
:55:38. > :55:43.of the cuts. And a Lib Dem MP was promoted to
:55:43. > :55:52.Business Minister. Labour's Baroness Morgan joined the opposition front
:55:52. > :56:04.bench in the laws. The Labour leaders is in ears in the Commons.
:56:04. > :56:09.-- eyes and ears. Have you got any plans for a
:56:09. > :56:13.reshuffle? Not now. Councils will hear this week exactly how much
:56:13. > :56:16.money they will be getting. Russell Goodway said it could be
:56:16. > :56:23.catastrophic than some. What are you expecting? It is going to be grim,
:56:23. > :56:27.no doubt about it. The settlement the Westminster government is giving
:56:27. > :56:31.to the assembly is appalling and that obviously has a knock-on
:56:31. > :56:34.effect. Do you think the Welsh government's hands are tied on their
:56:34. > :56:40.spending? They had to make cuts and this is the place to do it? Well, it
:56:40. > :56:45.has no say and cannot challenge in any way the settlement that is
:56:45. > :56:51.decided in Westminster for Wales. To be honest, that is a very concerning
:56:51. > :56:55.situation. We are impotent as politicians in Wales to defend the
:56:55. > :57:01.national assembly against that. That is part of the reason why we need to
:57:01. > :57:08.build resilience into our system. That is the first chink I've seen
:57:08. > :57:12.between you. Your government in Westminster thinks differently.
:57:12. > :57:16.Well, we understand the environment in which we are operating. It is my
:57:16. > :57:20.belief the Welsh government has cushioned local government in the
:57:20. > :57:24.last couple of years against the worst of the effects, and English
:57:24. > :57:28.councils have been confronted with very stark choices over a number of
:57:28. > :57:33.years. One particular danger is either local government is around
:57:33. > :57:37.the issue of redundancies. If you have redundancy packages offered,
:57:37. > :57:41.very often it is not the people that you might be able to spare to go,
:57:41. > :57:46.and there is a knowledge capital there in some of our local
:57:46. > :57:53.authorities that is very much abstract if you have key people
:57:53. > :57:58.leaving. -- very much at threat. Very briefly from both of you, with
:57:58. > :58:03.both done a deal with the government over the budget, but when it comes
:58:03. > :58:11.to the boat, Wilbur Wright -- will Plaid Cymru be endorsing it? We will
:58:11. > :58:22.be abstaining. I'm not absolutely certain
:58:22. > :58:25.to Andrew. Ed Miliband reshuffled his
:58:25. > :58:30.ministerial team this week with some commentators calling it the purge of
:58:30. > :58:35.the Blairites, but one poor lamb who fell victim to this perch was Diane
:58:35. > :58:40.Abbott, not somebody who worshipped at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on
:58:40. > :58:44.the backbenches means she can pursue other interests such as attending
:58:44. > :58:53.the Cheltenham literary Festival, and where she joins us now. Welcome.
:58:53. > :58:57.Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He talked about message discipline. I
:58:57. > :59:00.think the thing that did it for them was me coming out on Syria. This was
:59:01. > :59:09.think the thing that did it for them a purge of the Blairites, how did
:59:09. > :59:13.you become collateral damage? I have no idea but the fact that I was the
:59:13. > :59:16.one member of the front bench to go public about my concerns on Syria
:59:16. > :59:22.one member of the front bench to go probably tipped my enemies in the
:59:22. > :59:26.party machinery over the edge. But he went your way on Syria, in the
:59:27. > :59:34.end he agreed with your line on Syria so why would that be for
:59:34. > :59:36.dismissal? I agree with you - you're fired. Because I actually spoke up
:59:36. > :59:42.and it was the fact that I spoke up, fired. Because I actually spoke up
:59:42. > :59:53.which was like a pebble falling in a forest or something. I am glad I
:59:53. > :00:08.spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like people around them than who are
:00:08. > :00:15.outspoken, who speak their minds? I think he's convinced he needs people
:00:15. > :00:18.who read from the scripts. People get scripted and people were
:00:18. > :00:22.increasingly upset that even though get scripted and people were
:00:22. > :00:28.I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr
:00:28. > :00:35.Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his
:00:35. > :00:41.best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour
:00:41. > :00:46.Party chose the right Miliband. I will remain loyal to him on the
:00:46. > :00:52.backbenches. You're going to be loyal? However, I want to join in
:00:52. > :00:58.the debate. You're going to be loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both
:00:58. > :01:02.in public and private when others were bitching about him behind the
:01:02. > :01:06.scenes. When it comes to policy, from the backbenches, I hope to be
:01:06. > :01:10.involved in the debate particularly around nick policy. Et's see how
:01:10. > :01:19.loyal you are. You must be happy with all this new tough talk on
:01:19. > :01:25.welfare and free schools? Well, I think both Rachel and Tristram are
:01:25. > :01:31.very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The
:01:31. > :01:35.issue of free schools, they are one thing. But diminishing the role of
:01:35. > :01:40.local authorities is another. There are a lot of group of childrens,
:01:40. > :01:42.particularly with special needs, who need strong local authorities. I'm
:01:42. > :01:46.particularly with special needs, who sure Tristram will be aware of that.
:01:46. > :01:51.As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories
:01:51. > :01:57.have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms
:01:57. > :02:03.of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would
:02:03. > :02:09.you? What are you on, and lieu? I haven't seen the detail of Rachel's
:02:09. > :02:14.new position. You have to wait and see the detail. It is in the papers.
:02:14. > :02:18.You haven't stopped reading the papers. It was the Observer. When
:02:18. > :02:22.will you announce you're running for Mayor of London? I have no plans to
:02:22. > :02:27.announce that I'm running for Mayor Mayor of London? I have no plans to
:02:27. > :02:31.of London. No plans. That's what Michael his I will Tyne used to tell
:02:31. > :02:36.me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the
:02:36. > :02:41.same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know
:02:41. > :02:46.you're going for it. I know you're going for it. Everybody knows you're
:02:46. > :02:57.going for it. Just fess up to your old mate! ! I have no plans to run.
:02:57. > :03:04.If you did run, who would be, what would be your biggest threat other
:03:04. > :03:11.than yourself? I think there's a lot of very talented candidates, David
:03:11. > :03:17.Lammy, Tessa Jowell, Sadiq Khan. They are all talented. I would have
:03:17. > :03:21.to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of
:03:21. > :03:32.getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of our
:03:32. > :03:35.most loyal viewers of This Week and were taxi drivers and their wives.
:03:35. > :03:40.I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if
:03:40. > :03:46.you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love
:03:46. > :03:51.This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love
:03:51. > :03:56.you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy
:03:56. > :04:01.chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is
:04:01. > :04:05.what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this
:04:05. > :04:10.great programme to go and do something else in politics. She
:04:10. > :04:15.wanted to do something serious. She had taken what appeared to be a low
:04:15. > :04:20.position but taken it extremely serious and was committed to the
:04:20. > :04:30.issues. I'm quite disappointed for her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a
:04:30. > :04:36.thing. You just mentioned about London mayor, did Diane not ask to
:04:36. > :04:41.step down? No, she got fired. Someone who's an eminent person on
:04:41. > :04:43.this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's
:04:43. > :04:48.this programme, I don't know how he missing you. Are you free this
:04:48. > :04:53.Thursday night? Make him a happy man, come back to the fold. I think
:04:53. > :04:57.I may be free this Thursday night. So, if he'll have me, I'll be there.
:04:57. > :05:02.My people will speak to your people. We'll get it sorted out. Diane,
:05:02. > :05:06.watch that big vase behind you, you're not insured for. That thanks
:05:06. > :05:12.for being with us. Does she have a chance of being
:05:12. > :05:14.Mayor of London? She's very well known as Michael pointed out. That
:05:14. > :05:20.is important. People who are outside known as Michael pointed out. That
:05:20. > :05:25.the party fold have traditionally done well in the mayoral election.
:05:25. > :05:30.The job of being a London mayor is running an economy the size of a
:05:30. > :05:33.nation. It is a very serious job. There may be problems with her
:05:33. > :05:40.campaign. We're agreed she is running? That was a transparent bid
:05:40. > :05:46.for it. She's potentially a very compelling Coll ticks. People have
:05:46. > :05:53.her down as a London Borough left-winger but she's quite tough
:05:53. > :06:00.and conservative. Michael Gove said he had fallen in love with Diane
:06:00. > :06:07.which That's one vote he has. What do you think? I thing about Diane
:06:07. > :06:11.Abbott is she has a fantastic way of connecting. She has a really good
:06:11. > :06:15.way of connecting wi people. She would be a very strong candidate in
:06:16. > :06:22.the contest to be the Labour candidate. It will probably be a
:06:22. > :06:26.Labour win next time. Depends, if Labour wins the 2015 election it may
:06:26. > :06:32.be more difficult. There's a danger for Labour that Diane is the big
:06:32. > :06:36.personality liked by the party activists that wins the party
:06:36. > :06:40.primary but isn't necessarily a shoe in come the London general election?
:06:40. > :06:47.That's true. London is traditionally a Labour city. But Boris managed to
:06:47. > :06:52.win as an outsider. There are big dangers for Labour with that. I
:06:52. > :06:56.think, as I said before, somebody who seems a bit independent from
:06:56. > :07:01.their own party machinery tend to do well. Londoners respond to that.
:07:01. > :07:07.We've only had mayors so far that were independent? Indeed. And how
:07:07. > :07:12.well Ken Livingstone did last time. Not that far behind bar Is Johnson.
:07:12. > :07:22.He was and is much more left-wing than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't just
:07:22. > :07:26.stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by
:07:26. > :07:33.Norman Baker at the Home Office? This is very much to do with Clegg
:07:33. > :07:37.deciding he has to go back to those people who abandoned the Liberal
:07:37. > :07:41.Democrats the day they went into coalition with the Conservatives
:07:41. > :07:47.really, and convince them there are some holy areas of policy, sacred
:07:47. > :07:51.areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the
:07:51. > :07:56.Home Office, that incident with the immigration vans went down very
:07:56. > :07:59.badly across the whole nation. Went down particularly badly with Liberal
:07:59. > :08:02.Democrats and voters. In the Home down particularly badly with Liberal
:08:02. > :08:06.Office it is crucial you have somebody there to put a shield on
:08:06. > :08:12.that. We've had fun at his appointment, there's a proper
:08:13. > :08:16.purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg has won the argument against the
:08:16. > :08:21.left, Vince Cable on the economy, away day in July, briefings say
:08:21. > :08:25.DrCable's been put in his box. He's won the argument on economic policy
:08:25. > :08:29.against the left. When it comes to the touchstone issue in the Home
:08:29. > :08:33.Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The
:08:33. > :08:37.Guardian. This is important for Liberal Democrat voters. T's
:08:37. > :08:42.something else going on which is that Nick Clegg has to keep his
:08:42. > :08:46.parliamentary party happy. That involves giving them ministerial
:08:47. > :08:54.jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats losing their jobs, Michael Moore,
:08:54. > :09:00.Jeremy Browne, are Lunn lucky because vacancies have to be created
:09:00. > :09:05.for number people to come in. By 2015 an astonishing number of
:09:05. > :09:09.Liberal Democrat MPs will have been on the payroll. It is effective
:09:09. > :09:13.party management. I want to move on to press regulation. Brian Leveson's
:09:13. > :09:15.party management. I want to move on famous report, appeared before the
:09:16. > :09:21.party management. I want to move on parliamentary select committee. I
:09:21. > :09:26.will run you a clip from Connor Burns, out of the Westminster
:09:26. > :09:32.consensus. I bitterly regret politicians got involved in this. We
:09:32. > :09:37.moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord
:09:37. > :09:43.Leveson wanted a system the press took a lead on. Voluntary
:09:43. > :09:46.self-regulation. This is state involvement which I worry about
:09:46. > :09:50.profoundly. He sits on the media involvement which I worry about
:09:50. > :09:55.select committee which does interviews and investigations into
:09:55. > :09:59.the media. Chris Huhne said earlier he thought all the newspapers would
:09:59. > :10:03.sign up to the Government-backed Royal Charter. I think he's totally
:10:03. > :10:08.wrong. I think he thinks they should. But he did say they would. I
:10:08. > :10:13.think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that
:10:13. > :10:17.Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is
:10:17. > :10:22.interesting that the Government, Maria Miller, is essentially saying
:10:22. > :10:24.to the press industry, if you don't sign up, the Royal charter will go
:10:24. > :10:27.ahead. I cannot control the Labour sign up, the Royal charter will go
:10:27. > :10:32.Party and the Liberal Democrats. What you might do, she's saying, the
:10:32. > :10:37.industry is wind the clock back to what they are calling the Puttnam
:10:37. > :10:43.stage. That was earlier this year, Lord Puttnam was tack amendments
:10:43. > :10:47.which would introduce statutory regulation. Maria Miller says you
:10:48. > :10:53.may not like this sort of regulation, stat industry --
:10:53. > :10:58.statutory legislation but if you don't sign up to this, it will be a
:10:58. > :11:04.lot worse. Will that work? Playing the good cop, bad cop routine? Will
:11:05. > :11:09.that pressurise everyone to sign up. Lots of people are saying this will
:11:09. > :11:13.be a club with no members. It won't work. As Nick and I broke the story
:11:13. > :11:20.last week that the Government was going to reject the newspaper-backed
:11:20. > :11:25.one, I'm certain that the newspapers now, most of them maybe, not all,
:11:25. > :11:31.but most, will go the legal route and to judicial review on what the
:11:31. > :11:37.Government's proposing and will take it to strains Bowring where freedom
:11:37. > :11:42.of the press is enshrined. They will fight this? There is enough fury
:11:42. > :11:46.of the press is enshrined. They will amongst Fleet Street to result in
:11:46. > :11:50.that. The big political question going forward is which of the party
:11:50. > :11:54.leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press
:11:54. > :12:00.regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband
:12:00. > :12:04.the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian
:12:04. > :12:08.Leveson. You appoint a judge who loves rules, anti-press, you
:12:09. > :12:14.shouldn't be surprised with what you got in the Leveson report? I big
:12:14. > :12:19.chunk of press will look at David Cameron saying, you were the guy who
:12:19. > :12:28.opened this. You may not have intended what will happen. If he had
:12:28. > :12:33.a majority Government he wouldn't have appointed Brian Leveson. If
:12:33. > :12:38.they face more punitive fines over Labour ale cases they take that to
:12:38. > :12:46.Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to
:12:46. > :12:49.suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of
:12:49. > :12:53.Human Rights. They'll have to suspend that. We must never come out
:12:53. > :13:00.of the European Convention. Churchill was behind it. He was
:13:01. > :13:02.indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you
:13:02. > :13:07.regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you
:13:07. > :13:12.a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out
:13:12. > :13:17.on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important
:13:18. > :13:22.to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated
:13:22. > :13:26.with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the
:13:26. > :13:29.Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If
:13:29. > :13:30.Communities Secretary Eric Pickles it's Sunday, it is the Sunday
:13:30. > :13:38.politics.