:00:41. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:47. > :00:51.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:52. > :00:55.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:56. > :01:01.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:02. > :01:06.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:07. > :01:19.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:20. > :01:21.coppers will be answering questions London, does the London assembly
:01:22. > :01:34.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:35. > :01:38.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:39. > :01:44.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:45. > :01:52.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:53. > :01:58.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:59. > :02:02.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:03. > :02:06.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:07. > :02:11.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:12. > :02:16.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:17. > :02:19.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:20. > :02:30.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First, they report on the independence
:02:31. > :02:34.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:35. > :02:39.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:40. > :02:44.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:45. > :02:49.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:50. > :02:51.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:52. > :02:58.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:59. > :03:02.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:03. > :03:06.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:07. > :03:10.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:11. > :03:16.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:17. > :03:19.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:20. > :03:26.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 25%
:03:27. > :03:31.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:32. > :03:36.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:37. > :03:42.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:43. > :03:45.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:46. > :03:49.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:50. > :03:53.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:54. > :03:57.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:58. > :04:02.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:03. > :04:07.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:08. > :04:10.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:11. > :04:14.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:15. > :04:18.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:19. > :04:21.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:22. > :04:26.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:27. > :04:29.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:30. > :04:33.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:34. > :04:36.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:37. > :04:41.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:42. > :04:44.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:45. > :04:48.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:49. > :04:55.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:56. > :05:01.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:02. > :05:04.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:05. > :05:11.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:12. > :05:15.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:16. > :05:20.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:21. > :05:26.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:27. > :05:30.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:31. > :05:35.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:36. > :05:39.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:40. > :05:47.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:48. > :05:51.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:52. > :05:55.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:56. > :05:59.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:06:00. > :06:03.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:04. > :06:13.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:14. > :06:18.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:19. > :06:21.identity of Scottish people? No, I do not think we are required to
:06:22. > :06:27.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:28. > :06:30.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:31. > :06:35.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:36. > :06:38.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:39. > :06:41.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:42. > :06:47.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:48. > :06:50.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:51. > :06:55.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:56. > :06:59.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:07:00. > :07:03.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:04. > :07:08.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:09. > :07:11.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:12. > :07:15.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:16. > :07:20.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:21. > :07:27.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:28. > :07:33.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:34. > :07:39.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:40. > :07:44.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:45. > :07:48.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:49. > :07:51.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:52. > :07:56.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:57. > :08:00.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:01. > :08:04.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:05. > :08:10.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:11. > :08:13.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:14. > :08:19.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:20. > :08:23.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:24. > :08:27.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:28. > :08:32.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:33. > :08:37.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:38. > :08:42.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:43. > :08:51.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:52. > :08:57.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:58. > :09:03.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:04. > :09:05.government would do, if elected. A decision on what the first
:09:06. > :09:09.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:10. > :09:14.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:15. > :09:17.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:18. > :09:21.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:22. > :09:27.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:28. > :09:31.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:32. > :09:35.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:36. > :09:39.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:40. > :09:44.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:45. > :09:49.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:50. > :09:53.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:54. > :09:58.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:59. > :10:03.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:04. > :10:07.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:08. > :10:12.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:13. > :10:16.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:17. > :10:20.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:21. > :10:25.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion, and
:10:26. > :10:29.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:30. > :10:32.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:33. > :10:36.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:37. > :10:41.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:42. > :10:45.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:46. > :11:00.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:01. > :11:05.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:06. > :11:11.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:12. > :11:14.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:15. > :11:24.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:25. > :11:27.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:28. > :11:31.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:32. > :11:37.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:38. > :11:41.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:42. > :11:44.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:45. > :11:50.then Alex Salmond, just like me, will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:51. > :11:56.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:57. > :12:01.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:02. > :12:10.right thing. So, in other words, he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:11. > :12:15.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:16. > :12:19.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:20. > :12:35.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:36. > :12:43.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:44. > :12:48.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:49. > :12:53.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:54. > :12:57.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:58. > :13:00.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:01. > :13:04.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:05. > :13:09.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:10. > :13:14.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:15. > :13:18.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:19. > :13:22.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:23. > :13:27.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:28. > :13:30.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:31. > :13:35.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:36. > :13:41.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:42. > :13:50.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:51. > :13:54.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:55. > :13:58.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:59. > :14:02.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:03. > :14:07.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:08. > :14:10.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:11. > :14:14.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:15. > :14:19.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:20. > :14:25.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:26. > :14:31.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:32. > :14:39.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:40. > :14:43.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:44. > :14:48.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:49. > :14:53.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:54. > :14:56.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:57. > :15:00.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:01. > :15:04.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:05. > :15:09.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:10. > :15:14.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:15. > :15:17.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:18. > :15:21.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:22. > :15:25.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:26. > :15:30.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:31. > :15:36.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:37. > :15:41.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:42. > :16:00.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:16:01. > :16:03.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:04. > :16:09.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:10. > :16:12.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:13. > :16:17.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:18. > :16:21.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:22. > :16:26.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:27. > :16:31.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:32. > :16:36.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:37. > :16:40.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:41. > :16:45.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:46. > :16:48.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:49. > :17:02.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:03. > :17:08.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:09. > :17:17.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:18. > :17:23.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:24. > :17:31.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:32. > :17:36.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:37. > :17:41.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:42. > :17:47.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:48. > :17:54.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:55. > :18:00.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:01. > :18:04.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:05. > :18:10.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:11. > :18:16.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:17. > :18:23.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:24. > :18:28.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:29. > :18:36.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:37. > :18:43.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:44. > :18:49.micromanage, allowing motorist 's to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:50. > :18:53.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:54. > :19:01.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:02. > :19:04.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:05. > :19:11.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:12. > :19:16.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:17. > :19:22.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:23. > :19:28.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:29. > :19:36.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:37. > :19:40.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:41. > :19:46.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:47. > :19:49.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:50. > :20:01.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:02. > :20:07.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:08. > :20:18.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:19. > :20:27.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:28. > :20:32.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:33. > :20:40.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:41. > :20:44.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:45. > :20:51.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:52. > :20:59.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:21:00. > :21:12.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:13. > :21:17.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:18. > :21:25.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:26. > :21:29.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:30. > :21:37.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2012,
:21:38. > :21:44.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:45. > :21:47.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:48. > :22:00.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:01. > :22:05.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:06. > :22:12.people can decide where it goes. But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:13. > :22:17.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:18. > :22:25.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:26. > :22:28.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:29. > :22:37.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:38. > :22:42.belt land. I do not accept that. I think around Nottingham there are
:22:43. > :22:49.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:50. > :23:01.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:02. > :23:07.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:08. > :23:07.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:08. > :23:14.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:15. > :23:14.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:15. > :23:19.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:20. > :23:25.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:26. > :23:36.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:37. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:38. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. -- housing. You cannot
:23:41. > :23:42.there, but nowhere near that. -- localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:43. > :23:55.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:56. > :24:01.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:02. > :24:07.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:08. > :24:12.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:13. > :24:18.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:19. > :24:22.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:23. > :24:28.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:29. > :24:35.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:36. > :24:41.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:42. > :24:47.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:48. > :24:52.mean riding over local concerns. Each application will be taken on
:24:53. > :24:57.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:58. > :25:01.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:02. > :25:05.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:06. > :25:13.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:14. > :25:16.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:17. > :25:24.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:25. > :25:29.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:30. > :25:35.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:36. > :25:38.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:39. > :25:46.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:47. > :25:51.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:52. > :25:57.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:58. > :26:04.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:05. > :26:09.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:10. > :26:17.has to flow without restriction. That is what I said at the time. We
:26:18. > :26:23.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:24. > :26:35.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:36. > :26:44.we have. I could not be happier! Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:45. > :26:58.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:59. > :27:03.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:04. > :27:09.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:10. > :27:15.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:16. > :27:23.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:24. > :27:30.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:31. > :27:39.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:40. > :27:41.On Wednesday senior police folk, including chief constables, will be
:27:42. > :27:46.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:47. > :27:49.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:50. > :27:51.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:52. > :27:53.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:54. > :27:58.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:59. > :28:06.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:07. > :28:11.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:12. > :28:14.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:15. > :28:21.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:22. > :28:25.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament.
:28:26. > :28:29.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:30. > :28:34.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:35. > :28:39.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:40. > :28:46.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:47. > :28:53.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:54. > :28:57.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:58. > :29:04.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:05. > :29:08.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:09. > :29:13.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:14. > :29:16.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:17. > :29:22.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:23. > :29:26.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:27. > :29:32.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:33. > :29:36.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:37. > :29:40.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:41. > :29:43.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:44. > :29:49.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:50. > :29:52.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:53. > :29:58.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:59. > :30:02.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:03. > :30:07.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:08. > :30:12.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:13. > :30:15.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:16. > :30:21.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:22. > :30:26.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:27. > :30:30.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:31. > :30:33.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 60% of
:30:34. > :30:41.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:42. > :30:50.pollsters started measuring it 30 years ago.
:30:51. > :30:55.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:56. > :31:00.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:01. > :31:05.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:06. > :31:12.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:13. > :31:16.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:17. > :31:19.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:20. > :31:25.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:26. > :31:32.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:33. > :31:38.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:39. > :31:44.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:45. > :31:50.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:51. > :31:55.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:56. > :31:59.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:32:00. > :32:04.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:05. > :32:07.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:08. > :32:16.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:17. > :32:20.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:21. > :32:22.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:23. > :32:33.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:34. > :32:37.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:38. > :32:42.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:43. > :32:47.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:48. > :32:53.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces,
:32:54. > :33:01.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:02. > :33:05.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:06. > :33:09.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:10. > :33:17.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:18. > :33:21.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:22. > :33:27.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:28. > :33:33.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:34. > :33:36.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:37. > :33:40.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:41. > :33:45.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:46. > :33:50.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:51. > :33:53.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:54. > :33:58.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:59. > :34:02.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:03. > :34:05.different bits of that incident. There is the officers on duty in
:34:06. > :34:10.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:11. > :34:14.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:15. > :34:17.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:18. > :34:25.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:26. > :34:28.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:29. > :34:33.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:34. > :34:37.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:38. > :34:40.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:41. > :34:45.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us, the
:34:46. > :34:48.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:49. > :34:52.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:53. > :35:02.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:03. > :35:07.if there is a crisis of trust... But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:08. > :35:12.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:13. > :35:18.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:19. > :35:22.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:23. > :35:26.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:27. > :35:32.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:33. > :35:38.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn't.
:35:39. > :35:44.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:45. > :35:48.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:49. > :35:54.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:55. > :35:58.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:59. > :36:04.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:05. > :36:09.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:10. > :36:17.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:18. > :36:20.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people,
:36:21. > :36:23.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:29.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:30. > :36:32.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:33. > :36:36.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:37. > :36:40.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:41. > :36:43.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:44. > :36:52.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:53. > :36:58.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:59. > :37:01.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:02. > :37:06.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:07. > :37:11.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:12. > :37:18.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:19. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:34.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:35. > :37:45.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:46. > :37:49.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:50. > :37:53.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:54. > :37:57.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:58. > :38:03.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:04. > :38:09.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:10. > :38:13.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:14. > :38:20.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:21. > :38:26.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:27. > :38:29.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:30. > :38:41.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:42. > :38:45.hello, and on the sunday politics wales, finance minister janes hutt
:38:46. > :38:49.tells this programme that wales cannot afford to "sit back and wait"
:38:50. > :38:50.before making use of a fresh ?2.1 billion injection of european
:38:51. > :38:55.economic aid. and carwyn jones criticises network
:38:56. > :38:58.rail over the maintenance closure of the severn tunnel during the rugby
:38:59. > :39:04.world league cup opening ceremony and womex music festival next
:39:05. > :39:07.weekend in cardiff. joining me throughout today's programme are two
:39:08. > :39:22.mps, the conservative jonathan evans and labour's stephen doughty.
:39:23. > :39:26.We real theme. Some figures have come out on the HS2 rail project.
:39:27. > :39:30.Cardiff appears to be a loser. There are some winners in north-east
:39:31. > :39:35.Wales. I am not entirely clear what Labour's position is. In principle,
:39:36. > :39:40.we remain in favour of the project, but we have been clear that that is
:39:41. > :39:50.not a blank check for it. We think they are going ahead regardless of
:39:51. > :39:54.the total cost, and the losses to part of the country are concerning.
:39:55. > :39:57.Cardiff would lose 68 million, according to the report, and we have
:39:58. > :40:01.real infrastructure needs here and need for real investment my area. We
:40:02. > :40:04.want to see new stations in the east of Cardiff, and bigger
:40:05. > :40:09.infrastructure projects should benefit the whole country. Over the
:40:10. > :40:12.whole country, it seems like places like Wrexham, Flintshire, might
:40:13. > :40:16.benefit from this. It is not all bad news. I think it is a good job we
:40:17. > :40:21.did not have management consultants 200 years ago, but would not have a
:40:22. > :40:23.network of railways as a whole. Whatever you invest, it will have
:40:24. > :40:31.disproportionate impact on whatever part of the country it may be. For
:40:32. > :40:33.instance, we will have ?350 million spent on electrifying railways to
:40:34. > :40:37.Cardiff and Swansea, which will affect other parts of the country.
:40:38. > :40:40.I'm taking this report with a pinch of salt. I think it is necessary
:40:41. > :40:45.that we see High-speed rail in Britain. We are lagging behind other
:40:46. > :40:48.parts of Europe. We will leave it there for now and move onto more
:40:49. > :40:51.trains. They are supposed to be a way of
:40:52. > :40:57.helping us get richer, but had EU funds bingo but Wales? With the
:40:58. > :41:00.latest seven-year programme due to start in January, our correspondent
:41:01. > :41:04.has been looking at whether we're getting the best value from
:41:05. > :41:07.Brussels. The flickering lights don't lull
:41:08. > :41:15.story. This supercomputer in Swansea can carry out 320 Chilean operations
:41:16. > :41:20.per second. That is some serious computing power. It is used to help
:41:21. > :41:23.businesses from car manufacturers to medical firms. Northern Isles
:41:24. > :41:29.finance minister has come over to take a look. The scheme has had ?19
:41:30. > :41:32.million in EU funding. It is one of several projects the Welsh
:41:33. > :41:37.government say that the money from Europe is making a real difference.
:41:38. > :41:39.This is about transport links, about regeneration, and about helping
:41:40. > :41:45.businesses with research and development and innovation. You can
:41:46. > :41:49.give the numbers, but those young people who have had training, does
:41:50. > :41:54.it lead to jobs? That is the important test of how we have used
:41:55. > :41:57.our structural funds, and it has led to the gently but getting jobs. Over
:41:58. > :42:02.the past several years, West Wales and the valleys have received more
:42:03. > :42:06.than ?1.9 billion of EU funding. They got a similar chunk in the
:42:07. > :42:11.seven years before that. Every penny has to be matched by the public or
:42:12. > :42:16.private sector, and the cash has to be spent on schemes like this one to
:42:17. > :42:22.boost the economy, not on things like schools asked the balls. The
:42:23. > :42:27.Welsh government says more than 20,000 jobs have been created, but
:42:28. > :42:30.critics say that is not return for the money. If you travel the length
:42:31. > :42:33.and breadth of Wales, you will find examples of waste within structural
:42:34. > :42:38.funding which should really make this be a very ashamed. You will
:42:39. > :42:41.find cultural centres, arts centres that have closed, all these
:42:42. > :42:44.investments in buildings which look very impressive at no funding in
:42:45. > :42:48.place to keep them running, and rather than creating a lot of
:42:49. > :42:53.nervous spirit, I think European funding in Wales has contributed to
:42:54. > :42:58.the dependency culture here as a country. Not everyone thinks
:42:59. > :43:01.Brussels has the answers. Despite all that EU investment, euro
:43:02. > :43:06.scepticism is on the rise even here in Wales. What has happened is, as a
:43:07. > :43:10.result of EU membership, we have become less competitive will stop
:43:11. > :43:14.less competitive because we make sure the manufacturers in Wales have
:43:15. > :43:17.expensive electricity because of EU accession with climate change, and
:43:18. > :43:20.the fact that the United Kingdom gets a bit of its own money back to
:43:21. > :43:27.be spent on projects approved the bureaucracy in Brussels is not what
:43:28. > :43:30.I would call a benefit will stop. One thing that worries experts as
:43:31. > :43:33.well as politicians is that other parts of the Europe seem to
:43:34. > :43:36.performing much better. Some put West Wales and the valleys in the
:43:37. > :43:41.same economic bracket as Greece or southern Italy, but even compare to
:43:42. > :43:48.them, we are not performing well. Previous places which have had low
:43:49. > :43:51.GDP values, low employment, productivity values similar to Wales
:43:52. > :43:55.and West Wales and the valleys in particular, are seeing high levels
:43:56. > :44:00.of growth and high rates of growth over the last five or ten years, and
:44:01. > :44:03.that put West Wales and the valleys in a particularly difficult
:44:04. > :44:06.situation. We have a low level of activity, and it's not getting much
:44:07. > :44:12.better in comparison to those of areas that might have been seen as
:44:13. > :44:19.being similar in the past. There is a risk of being left behind in that
:44:20. > :44:22.sense. A new seven-year round of EU funding start in January, and
:44:23. > :44:27.despite Rec there were warnings of cuts, West Wales and the valleys is
:44:28. > :44:30.getting another ?2.1 billion. The Welsh government is promising to cut
:44:31. > :44:33.red tape and keep a close eye on whether the project are really
:44:34. > :44:37.working will stop and with the public and private sectors are short
:44:38. > :44:40.of cash for match funding, ministers have hopped on the plane to
:44:41. > :44:44.Luxembourg to see if the European investment bank can help out. There
:44:45. > :44:49.is a real sense of urgency, but this time, we have to get it right. They
:44:50. > :44:55.are looking at ways they can help us until we get our borrowing powers,
:44:56. > :45:00.in perhaps different ways of funding projects, because this is not a time
:45:01. > :45:02.to sit back and wait. We must get on with the job, and the European
:45:03. > :45:07.investment bank is very keen to work with us on this. We also for the
:45:08. > :45:11.next seven years must look creatively and what can be done. I
:45:12. > :45:15.have done work on the European budget, and part of it was looking
:45:16. > :45:18.at public/ private partnerships, specifically the European investment
:45:19. > :45:22.bank and the role that bank can play. Over the next seven years, in
:45:23. > :45:26.many areas, this money will be the only capital and is money available,
:45:27. > :45:32.we must maximise it, so the old cosy public partnerships will not any
:45:33. > :45:37.longer work. Ministers are promising a smarter approach to make sure EU
:45:38. > :45:40.funds really deliver from now on. After 2020, the same level of
:45:41. > :45:46.support might not be available, and that is assuming the UK stays within
:45:47. > :45:50.the EU. Everyone agrees we have to get it right this time, before the
:45:51. > :45:58.door closes for good. Jonathan Evans, you are worth and
:45:59. > :46:00.NEP for ten years, during a time the first tranche of money was
:46:01. > :46:04.distributed. Thomas Livingstone says we need to get it right. A
:46:05. > :46:07.suggestion perhaps that we have not got it right previously? Yellow
:46:08. > :46:11.macro certainly. I did think we have. The reality is, it is not
:46:12. > :46:14.about creating jobs, but about creating growth. From growth, the
:46:15. > :46:20.jobs will come. It is not just there for job creation and then you find
:46:21. > :46:24.at the six or 12 month the job has gone. At the time that we first got
:46:25. > :46:32.this status and got our first trial shove money, out of the regions,
:46:33. > :46:37.about 50 of them, Wales was counted six in terms of overall growth. We
:46:38. > :46:39.have sunk to 42nd, and that is an indication of how much more growth
:46:40. > :46:43.there has been in the other regions that are amongst the poorer regions.
:46:44. > :46:49.I think this is a failure. The commission itself says the regions
:46:50. > :46:54.that are doing poorest are doing so for two reasons: Firstly, in terms
:46:55. > :46:58.of education, their standards are just not good enough, and secondly,
:46:59. > :47:02.because there is poor administrative government, and I think both of
:47:03. > :47:07.those apply in Wales. There we go. Stephen Doughty, you can reply to
:47:08. > :47:10.that. The Welsh government says this has created 27,000 jobs, but from
:47:11. > :47:13.Jonathan Bond macro perspective, a failure. Clearly, if you're not
:47:14. > :47:18.going to say every single project has been perfect in any scheme this
:47:19. > :47:22.size. What is your overall assessment? That it has made a huge
:47:23. > :47:27.benefit, in terms of jobs that Jane Hutt was about, and in terms of the
:47:28. > :47:29.people across Wales who have received new qualifications as a
:47:30. > :47:32.result of EU funding, and you can only look in the last few weeks a
:47:33. > :47:37.project like the new link road between the Port Talbot docks and
:47:38. > :47:40.the M4, which the First Minister was opening. That is a key example of EU
:47:41. > :47:45.money benefiting growth and business. The Welsh government and
:47:46. > :47:48.EU working together to benefit Wales. There was a suggestion that
:47:49. > :47:53.this could be the last chance Wales would receive this money. It really
:47:54. > :47:57.needs to have a big impact this time, more than it did whether you
:47:58. > :48:01.agree it is a failure or not. So macro obviously, I am glad the Welsh
:48:02. > :48:04.government is looking at the funding office, and reviews to make sure we
:48:05. > :48:08.use that money most effectively. The wider issue here is that it is not
:48:09. > :48:11.just EU money which is responsible for creating growth, an investment
:48:12. > :48:14.in Wales. We must have the wider investment sector that is right. We
:48:15. > :48:18.have seen the slowest growth for Hundred years in the UK, largely
:48:19. > :48:25.because, I believe, of David Cameron's and George Osborne 's
:48:26. > :48:28.economic policies. But we will see growth next year 3%, so you will not
:48:29. > :48:33.have that excuse them. What is clear already, Jane Hutt has recognised
:48:34. > :48:39.that the private sector so far has been insufficiently involved. She
:48:40. > :48:42.needs to speak to the European investment bank. I am glad she has
:48:43. > :48:46.recognised that, because I said that to Rhodri Morgan years ago. He
:48:47. > :48:50.recognised it was necessary to get the private sector involved. His
:48:51. > :48:54.argument was, let's at least get the local authorities on board to start
:48:55. > :48:57.with, but I must say, it has been a public sector led approach so far,
:48:58. > :49:04.and I think it has failed Wales. I think it is a a point that has been
:49:05. > :49:09.raised, the drying up of the map to receive this, there were reasons for
:49:10. > :49:12.that, but creating jobs in those areas might not be as effective as
:49:13. > :49:17.in Cardiff that people can travel to. I think it is one thing I can
:49:18. > :49:23.agree about, we are very hopeful we might be able to use this third
:49:24. > :49:26.tranche of money now to see the network connection between the
:49:27. > :49:29.valleys in Cardiff improved, because I think Cardiff can be a draw for
:49:30. > :49:33.investment, but as things currently structured, all the money must be
:49:34. > :49:37.outside Cardiff. Maybe that money can be spent on creating a network
:49:38. > :49:42.of communication right the way across the valleys. Maybe something
:49:43. > :49:45.like the London Underground. And that gives people in the valleys and
:49:46. > :49:51.need jobs the opportunity of getting to Cardiff where there may be those
:49:52. > :49:55.opportunities. I would agree on that. One thing I would say is, East
:49:56. > :50:00.Wales has also received European funding, hundreds of millions of
:50:01. > :50:03.pounds of it. That has made a difference too, but I agree we need
:50:04. > :50:09.to look at ways we can best work with the rest of Wales as a gateway
:50:10. > :50:13.almost. We will support jobs and growth in business across the rest
:50:14. > :50:18.of the country. We start with HS2, a Metro system, and now onto more rail
:50:19. > :50:20.stories. The First Minister has criticised Network Rail over the
:50:21. > :50:25.maintenance closure of the seven tunnel during the Rugby league
:50:26. > :50:29.opening ceremony, and the music festival next weekend in Cardiff.
:50:30. > :50:34.Carwyn Jones first publicly raised his concerns about their work at
:50:35. > :50:37.Question Time, and he told the Sunday Politics that the Welsh
:50:38. > :50:40.government had not been consulted over the closure. He sounded quite
:50:41. > :50:45.exasperated. They have got form on this, and it is an important point
:50:46. > :50:51.here, when we have events in Cardiff, why do maintenance work on
:50:52. > :50:54.the tunnel when these are taking place. If there were events every
:50:55. > :50:57.single week in the millennium Centre or millennium Stadium or the city
:50:58. > :51:01.Stadium in Cardiff, you might say, OK, some weekends, that is
:51:02. > :51:05.inevitable. But for some reason, they often choose dates when there
:51:06. > :51:10.are big events on in Cardiff. Be for me referred to was the Severn Tunnel
:51:11. > :51:14.closure in 1999, when the Welsh rugby team played England at
:51:15. > :51:18.Wembley. Fans travelling by rail had to take a longer route to London.
:51:19. > :51:21.Next weekend, thousands of rugby league fans will be heading here to
:51:22. > :51:27.Cardiff for the opening ceremony of the Rugby World Cup, followed by
:51:28. > :51:30.matches between Wales and Italy. Australia and England also play.
:51:31. > :51:37.Music fans will be heading to the capital to for the WOMEX Festival.
:51:38. > :51:40.Not all rail services will be affected, but the Severn Tunnel
:51:41. > :51:42.closures will cause some disruption. In a statement, Network Rail told
:51:43. > :52:13.the Sunday Politics Wales: Mr Jones Is Concerned That The
:52:14. > :52:17.Travel Disruptions Could Put The Block In Cardiff And Have A Negative
:52:18. > :52:21.Impact On The Worldwide Image Of Wales. He Understands The Need For
:52:22. > :52:24.Maintenance And Regretted That An Alternative Rail Route Was Not
:52:25. > :52:30.Considered With The Building Of The New Severn Bridge. The Great Shame
:52:31. > :52:33.Is That A Rail Back Was Not Put On The Severn Bridge In 1993. Other
:52:34. > :52:36.Countries Would Have Done That, And Then We Would Not Have Had Those
:52:37. > :52:41.Problems With The Severn Tunnel. There Needs To Be Maintenance There.
:52:42. > :52:45.It Is A Very Wet Tunnel, Having Gone Through It In A Cab, But Let's Do It
:52:46. > :52:48.When There Is Not A Big Game On In Cardiff.
:52:49. > :52:53.Stephen Doughty, Let's Touch On One Of The Points There. The CLOSURE OF
:52:54. > :52:57.THE TUNNEL NEXT WEEKEND inhibiting people coming to Cardiff could
:52:58. > :53:00.damage Wales' reputation, because these are two event that I going to
:53:01. > :53:05.be watched around the world. Yes, they are huge. We have seen Cardiff
:53:06. > :53:08.and South Wales gain a great reputation from the hosting of the
:53:09. > :53:12.ball and the Olympics over the past few years, particularly since the
:53:13. > :53:15.building of the one Stadium, and I find this decision pretty
:53:16. > :53:18.inexplicable. These are two major events, and we risk presenting a
:53:19. > :53:24.poor image of Cardiff and access to Wales. Network Rail say they have no
:53:25. > :53:27.option, the work must be done sometime. Is there an argument is,
:53:28. > :53:30.Jonathan Evans, that if they don't do it on the weekend, it will be
:53:31. > :53:34.during the week, and that would impact business travel, people would
:53:35. > :53:37.be annoyed about that as well? I think there is pretty much always
:53:38. > :53:41.engineering work at the weekends on this line. Anyone who has travelled
:53:42. > :53:44.on its nose you can pretty much expect they will be three to three
:53:45. > :53:50.and a half hour delays on a Saturday or Sunday, where it will be two
:53:51. > :53:52.hours in the week. I check the schedules before coming, and it
:53:53. > :53:57.turned out that even though you will go on a bus during part of the
:53:58. > :54:01.journey, the journey time will be the same in any event. I think it is
:54:02. > :54:04.a bit silly to raise this is a point. I think it is important that
:54:05. > :54:12.we get our transport communications right, but I think that the First
:54:13. > :54:15.Minister, the status of his role speaking for Wales, talking about
:54:16. > :54:18.Wales being downgraded by it, it is more important that he develops a
:54:19. > :54:22.better relationship with Network Rail so that he knows what they are
:54:23. > :54:26.planning well in advance and he can make his representations well in a
:54:27. > :54:34.dance rather than seeing this sort of spats . The Rugby Union World Cup
:54:35. > :54:37.in 2015, there is a promise from Network Rail they will be no works
:54:38. > :54:43.during that. But I think the Welsh government, they are supporting
:54:44. > :54:47.WOMEX, and not sure about the World Cup, but what do you make about the
:54:48. > :54:50.idea this could damage the international reputation of Wales? I
:54:51. > :54:53.don't think that is helpful for the First Minister to be coming out and
:54:54. > :54:57.attacking Network Rail in this way. We from Network Rail that the
:54:58. > :55:01.arrangements for this particular weekend were put in place two years
:55:02. > :55:06.ago. I'd prefer a situation in which when there are arrangements in
:55:07. > :55:09.place, there is dialogue between the First Minister and Network Rail,
:55:10. > :55:13.rather than finding a week beforehand we have a spat of this
:55:14. > :55:18.nature in the press. Stephen disagrees. Obviously, we need
:55:19. > :55:21.dialogue, and to look as bad as possible. I think he has said they
:55:22. > :55:25.did not consult with the Welsh government. Yellow macro well, I
:55:26. > :55:29.think he is exactly within his rights to raise this issue. He has
:55:30. > :55:33.to look out for Wales and how it is seen in the world. There are issues
:55:34. > :55:37.of transport into South Wales, and discussions at the moment about the
:55:38. > :55:41.Cardiff business Council about the image of how Cardiff is portrayed
:55:42. > :55:43.coming into the city. I think those are very important things, and
:55:44. > :55:48.ultimately, they show what this country is like and whether people
:55:49. > :55:53.should invest all come to sporting events here. He is right to raise
:55:54. > :55:59.it. As Cardiff MPs, will you go to the events that we can? Obviously,
:56:00. > :56:03.no problems with the Severn Tunnel ! Yellow macro I am hoping to get to
:56:04. > :56:09.ten macro to if I can. Rugby runs in my family, but I probably cannot
:56:10. > :56:12.make it to that. I am a union man, but the less I say about leader that
:56:13. > :56:17.! Good news for Labour, perhaps !
:56:18. > :56:27.Now, time for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the
:56:28. > :56:30.week in 60 seconds. Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT
:56:31. > :56:35.Davies said BBC Wales should be accountable to the assembly in the
:56:36. > :56:38.future. He said the BBC had a near monopoly on reporting devolution and
:56:39. > :56:42.should be scrutinised by assembly members. Currently, the BBC
:56:43. > :56:46.governing body, the BBC trust, ancestor the UK Parliament on all
:56:47. > :56:48.parts of the BBC. Vale of fluid MP Chris Ruan
:56:49. > :56:55.criticised energy company price rises, and accused ministers of
:56:56. > :56:57.washing their hands are the problem. Ed Davey said increases were
:56:58. > :57:02.disappointing and suggested customers should switch suppliers.
:57:03. > :57:07.Clive Comrie's Parliamentary leader will stand down as an MP at the next
:57:08. > :57:16.election. He has been an MP for 21 years.
:57:17. > :57:20.Cardiff city season-ticket holder expressed his approval for the
:57:21. > :57:23.manager after the recent of evil at the club. Mr Andrew said he was the
:57:24. > :57:32.best manager the club have had in a generation.
:57:33. > :57:38.As it happens, I've got two Cardiff City season ticket holders in the
:57:39. > :57:43.studio with me. Jonathan Evans, is Malky Mackay the best manage energy
:57:44. > :57:47.narration? What do you make of the events at the Stadium of the last
:57:48. > :57:50.two weeks? I think they are and it's the Google, frankly, but there is a
:57:51. > :57:54.lesson to be learnt. It is not that we save the manager or the owners
:57:55. > :57:58.are right. There are three people at this party, and those are the
:57:59. > :58:02.supporters, the manager, the owner. We have to get a better assimilation
:58:03. > :58:06.between them. I think it is a bad thing that the chairman of the
:58:07. > :58:10.supporters trust, for instance, first met with the owner of the club
:58:11. > :58:13.something like two and a half or three years after the club had been
:58:14. > :58:18.acquired. I think supporters' trusts need to be much more involved with
:58:19. > :58:28.football teams, but I am not going to attack in the owner. He has spent
:58:29. > :58:30.?30 million recently for new players for Cardiff, which has made a big
:58:31. > :58:37.difference to us, so we must recognise the important role that is
:58:38. > :58:41.a part of what we get from the owner, what we get from the
:58:42. > :58:46.manager, and most important of all, the supporters. Malky Mackay says he
:58:47. > :58:51.will be staying for the foreseeable future at least. You welcome that, I
:58:52. > :58:59.suppose. Simek are absolutely. I do think he is the best manager we have
:59:00. > :59:03.had for a long time. The interaction he has with fans and supporters of
:59:04. > :59:07.the clubs, I'm getting at is the community and speaking to supporters
:59:08. > :59:10.and building those relationships are absolutely great. I would agree we
:59:11. > :59:14.need to have a clear respect between those three parts, the manager, the
:59:15. > :59:20.owner and the supporters, and make sure they respect each other's
:59:21. > :59:25.perspectives and responsibility. I am sure Cardiff supporters will not
:59:26. > :59:28.thank me for saying this, but you can emulate the success of Swansea.
:59:29. > :59:33.Look at her successful their clubbers. I think there is a much
:59:34. > :59:38.bigger role for supporters trust. They can get involved in every
:59:39. > :59:41.detail of the club, but the owner obviously has a right to have a
:59:42. > :59:45.significant say. But I think there is a role and there could be a
:59:46. > :59:48.better relationship. I think it is unrealistic to expect that Cardiff
:59:49. > :59:53.city could be like Swansea, in other words, ace supporter owned club,
:59:54. > :59:58.because there is too much debt, too much money spent, but that does not
:59:59. > :00:00.me and we should not see one whizzy representative of the supporters'
:00:01. > :00:05.trust actively involved in the governance of the club. That will
:00:06. > :00:07.reassure supporters in my view. Certainly it would reassure Stephen
:00:08. > :00:13.and I. Now, energy prices, briefly. Ed
:00:14. > :00:17.Miliband promised a freeze on prices if Labour win the election. Prices
:00:18. > :00:22.have gone up 10% or British Gas customers in the past week. What is
:00:23. > :00:26.the UK Government going to do? Labour's policy is going to be to
:00:27. > :00:30.cut that often, presumably, when they come in. In reality, I don't
:00:31. > :00:34.think that is workable, but I think there may well have to be some
:00:35. > :00:37.discussion about the impact of green taxes on the price of electricity.
:00:38. > :00:41.We have seen Alex Salmond say that what he would do is scrap green
:00:42. > :00:46.taxes, take them off the energy bills as a price for people to vote
:00:47. > :00:50.for independence, and all of the people who wanted to see green taxes
:00:51. > :00:54.brought in, I think that perhaps they will have to appreciate now
:00:55. > :00:59.that that is contributing to the rise in prices. Ed Miliband brought
:01:00. > :01:04.some of them in as energy minister, did he? The big question to me is
:01:05. > :01:07.what side is David Cameron on. If the underside of the energy bosses
:01:08. > :01:14.all constituents like mine across Cardiff who are struggling with
:01:15. > :01:18.energy bills will stop. Do you think the energy freeze is workable? I
:01:19. > :01:25.think it is absolutely workable, but it must come along side a reform of
:01:26. > :01:28.the energy market, getting proper competition back.
:01:29. > :01:31.We are out of time. Thank you very much for coming in. That is all
:01:32. > :01:32.we've got time for this week. We will be back
:01:33. > :01:36.down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you
:01:37. > :01:45.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:46. > :01:53.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:54. > :01:59.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:02:00. > :02:06.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:07. > :02:10.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:11. > :02:17.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:18. > :02:23.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:24. > :02:28.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:29. > :02:38.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:39. > :02:43.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:44. > :02:48.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:49. > :02:52.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:53. > :02:57.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:58. > :03:01.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:02. > :03:06.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:07. > :03:12.be on the liberal centre ground. But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:13. > :03:16.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:17. > :03:24.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:25. > :03:29.inwards, to look for reassuring, familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:30. > :03:34.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:35. > :03:38.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:39. > :03:42.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:43. > :03:44.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:45. > :03:51.the deficit down, cutting crime, keeping interest rates low, and
:03:52. > :03:54.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:55. > :03:58.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:59. > :04:02.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:03. > :04:05.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:06. > :04:09.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:10. > :04:15.policies excesses in government. I want us to be confident, outward
:04:16. > :04:19.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:20. > :04:24.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:25. > :04:28.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:29. > :04:36.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:37. > :04:45.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:46. > :04:48.area, so let's explore it a bit. We have had two very significant and
:04:49. > :04:52.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:53. > :04:55.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:56. > :05:00.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:05:01. > :05:02.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:03. > :05:06.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:07. > :05:11.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:12. > :05:14.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:15. > :05:20.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:21. > :05:28.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:29. > :05:31.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:32. > :05:34.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:35. > :05:37.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:38. > :05:41.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:42. > :05:46.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:47. > :05:49.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:50. > :05:56.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:57. > :06:02.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:03. > :06:05.should be instinctively statist, and I do not think either we should be
:06:06. > :06:10.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:11. > :06:14.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:15. > :06:18.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:19. > :06:22.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:23. > :06:25.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:26. > :06:30.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:31. > :06:35.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:36. > :06:48.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:49. > :06:53.Are the Tories wooing you? Well, I do not know if that is the right
:06:54. > :07:00.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:01. > :07:05.Conservatives have, if you like, made some advances or generous
:07:06. > :07:08.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:09. > :07:11.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:12. > :07:16.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:17. > :07:21.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:22. > :07:25.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:26. > :07:31.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:32. > :07:34.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:35. > :07:39.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:40. > :07:42.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:43. > :07:52.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:53. > :07:57.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:58. > :08:02.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:03. > :08:06.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:07. > :08:10.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:11. > :08:14.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:15. > :08:27.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:28. > :08:33.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:34. > :08:35.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:36. > :08:39.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:40. > :08:45.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:46. > :08:50.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:51. > :08:55.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:56. > :08:58.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:59. > :09:02.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:03. > :09:05.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:06. > :09:10.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:11. > :09:15.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:16. > :09:19.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:20. > :09:23.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:24. > :09:26.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:27. > :09:30.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:31. > :09:33.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:34. > :09:43.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:44. > :09:48.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:49. > :09:50.not get the credit anyway. Well, if they diss associate themselves like
:09:51. > :09:56.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:57. > :10:01.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:02. > :10:05.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:06. > :10:11.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:12. > :10:15.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:16. > :10:22.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:23. > :10:28.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:29. > :10:33.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:34. > :10:36.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:37. > :10:45.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:46. > :10:54.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:55. > :11:00.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That's
:11:01. > :11:07.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:08. > :11:11.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:12. > :11:18.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:19. > :11:22.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:23. > :11:26.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:27. > :11:30.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:31. > :11:36.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:37. > :11:40.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:41. > :11:46.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:47. > :11:50.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:51. > :11:57.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:58. > :12:01.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:02. > :12:06.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:07. > :12:15.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:16. > :12:20.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip, and
:12:21. > :12:24.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:25. > :12:26.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:27. > :12:30.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:31. > :12:36.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:37. > :12:42.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:43. > :12:49.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:50. > :12:52.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:53. > :13:03.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:04. > :13:10.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:11. > :13:13.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:14. > :13:20.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:21. > :13:25.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:26. > :13:31.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:32. > :13:36.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:37. > :13:39.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:40. > :13:43.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:44. > :13:47.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:48. > :13:56.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means,
:13:57. > :14:01.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:02. > :14:04.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:05. > :14:08.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:09. > :14:15.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.